Ireland v Australia 22 Nov 2014: Dog v Cat: Ali V Foreman: Beauty v Beast, Xavier v Wolfman

First topic message reminder :

Have they ever met?
Sure they have.  And they're meeting each other now every second of every day in the lead up to the weekend's encounter - Schmidt even dreaming tactics whilst asleep at night, as there are not nearly enough hours in an atomic-clock week for him.  A meeting of brainwaves as one tries to look into the other's head and plan victory or defeat.

Schmidt doesn't rate the number 3.  Neither does Cheika.  But Cheika will still want the number back out of a sense of pride  He got no time for Ranking nonsense but he'll take it as his pound of flesh anyway given that the rules of the game forbid real flesh being taken.

Schmidt is the scientist; birdlike, almost timid, edgy and nervous when tension grows.  Cheika is the brick wall that needs no door to make a space for itself in a fight.  He has a nice smile, especially when he's happy, and that's usually when his fingers are around someone's neck and squeezing

Schmidt is considered pedantic, perfecting and getting on for being an infuriating perfectionist.  That can often be a problem as the word has noting to do with achieving perfection and everything to do with simply never being satisfied.  Perfectionism can often cloud the path to an easier fulfilling life.  Schmidt is driven but I don't think he'll ever find peace.

Cheika seems more like a company CEO.  Goals adopted, timeframes given, pie charts done, costs analysed, work done, work done, work redone with shouts and screams to make people listen and goals achieved.  Next project.  First project forgotten, yesterday's news.  Little genuine emotion for the victory or the initial goal that rapidly sinks into his history and falls into his junkbox.  
Schmidt wants to win - yes - but he wants to play chess.  Cheika just wants results.

And of course both coached Leinster.  One began the journey but had a temperament that wasn't conducive to a long partnership with the players.  Schmidt continued the journey and honed it but also had a temperament that didn't seem to want the relationship to last long.
This will be a brief encounter for both men - just the way they like it.  Brief encounter but the makings of a very long day for both sets of fans.

profitius wrote:McGrath: Solid in the scrum and worked hard.
Best: Some excellent play in the loose as usual but his throwing wasn't good enough.
Ross: Tough day in the scrums for Ross. Is he past it now?
POC: MOTM and put in his usual workrate.
Toner: Wasn't at the races at all. I've stood up for him before but this was an awful game from him.
POM: Put in a good shift with some steals.
Ruddock: Worked hard but was a bit slow to the breakdown. 7 isn't his natural position
Heaslip: Worked hard but didn't do anything with the ball.

As a whole the pack didn't play well. Individually they were alright but as a unit they struggled at times. It was only in the second half when they tightened up the game, they played better.

Murray: He had a bad game. Worked hard but his usual accuracy left him down.
Sexton: Kicked his penalties well but another who had a bad game. Aimless kicking which was also inaccurate.
Zebo: Made a few mistakes which is a few too many. His intercepted offload changed the game.
D'Arcy: Offers very little. A great servant to Irish rugby but his time is well up now and there are other options.
Henshaw: Battled well and had a few good moments. Caught out once or twice but he is learning.
Bowe: Played well. As usual everything he did was done well.
Kearney: He had a good game and almost got that drop goal. He lacks creativity overall but deserves his place after 2 good performances this autumn.

Would agree with pretty much all of this, which is weird to say after beating the Aussies. I really was waiting for us to concede a last minute score again, but thankfully we held out this time. Hopefully well stop conceding last minute game changing scores. Was great to see POC putting in big tackles in the last minute of the game. Thought he, POM, Henshaw and Kearney were our best players.

We've gone 3 from 3 and IMO found at least one of our centres for the next while (thought Henshaw had another good game and cant wait to see him outside Olding). So a really successful Autumn series.

Will be good to have Moore, and Henderson (Toner had one of his worse games for Ireland today) back not to mention Healy and SOB. Some game time for alternatives to Darcy and Reddan and I think we'll have a very healthy group of players to pick a squad from come the world cup.

Get well soon Joe.

Well this is the easiest post of the weekend to comment on.

Well Done Ireland 3rd in World at end of the AIs so have to be very happy with that, pity you're not playing the ABs to see if get all 3 wins.

Also get well Schmidt

Ireland are winning but are we really playing well? At 17-0 up we got sloopy and engaged the Aussies in the sort of open game they love. Think we could have been a lot smarter than that. Crucially though in the 2nd half we adapted and got the win. Must suck for Wales fans to see Ireland squeeze past the Aussies where they keep falling short. Not having a dig.

Does make you question whether we have the right coach, Ireland were average internationally for so long, even with BOD you were not beating these sides as convincingly and you should have beaten the All Blacks last year

IronMike wrote:Does make you question whether we have the right coach, Ireland were average internationally for so long, even with BOD you were not beating these sides as convincingly and you should have beaten the All Blacks last year

It's true Schmidt is a mastermind. But Ireland rugby have a good infrastructure from the bottom up, and it's still getting better. Gatland doesn't have that in Wales and I think we've gone a bit backward, our strength in depth has got worse while Ireland's has got better.

BTW, I think 6 Nations is Ireland's to lose and there's a good chance you'll get your third grand slam in 70 years... Wales, Scotland, France and England can fight it out for second spot.

It's hard to judge.  Like someone - Bedford it was - said earlier, it might have been nice in hindsight to have another game lined up for next week against New Zealand.  Just to really test the scope of how long we can hold out in a sequence of games against the very best of the best (three SH sides).
The WC will require a week after week slog (maybe never as intense as three SH sides in three weeks) but that's why the test this autumn of meeting all three of them might have been a real valuable experience for Ireland.

But also, I do fret over our resilience in playing such volcanic collision games in a close together sequence.  Even when Ireland played rubbish not so long ago, their games were always eye-watering in the levels of sheer impact stuff they ran themselves into and the defending they needed to get through - defending well needs a lot of running! - to keep themselves competitive.  So it mightn't have been pretty had we had the ABs pencilled in as a final game.  

We're getting there on consistency and indeed closing tough games out - yesterday itself was a big step up in statement on the closing-games-out front when I thought we were very conscious that the tail end of the game needed even more concentration and intensity, not less.  So we've certainly improved across the board but I still think we need more science involved to increase stamina levels even more. Although it was pleasing to see Australia replace and replace to try to gain the advantage on tired Irish guys - but it never came.

And on that topic - Ross, the poor guy.  He keeps going beyond the call of duty and surprising us all by how much he can take the extra minutes he's always asked to play in truly big games.  He's become our Bull Hayes.  Not the most accomplished player on the field but worth his weight in gold in many ways.

SecretFly wrote:He's become our Bull Hayes.

Thats another big concern of mine though, relying on one tight head again. I do believe Martin Moore can be the one guy who can take the pressure off him so I desperately hope Moore gets fit and stays fit.

Notch wrote:

SecretFly wrote:He's become our Bull Hayes.

Thats another big concern of mine though, relying on one tight head again. I do believe Martin Moore can be the one guy who can take the pressure off him so I desperately hope Moore gets fit and stays fit.

Oh for sure.  but I'm just saying if Ross is being continuously asked to play longer in each game (or more games) than practically any other player (save perhaps Heaslip) then that's because management believe him to be that important.  Like you, I'd prefer alternatives that were trusted.  I'd feel more comfortable.  But it seems as yet, they aren't.

I think Martin Moore would be, if he was here and also Nathan White was slated to start against the Boks. So there are some options, but they are all injured!

Notch wrote:I think Martin Moore would be, if he was here and also Nathan White was slated to start against the Boks. So there are some options, but they are all injured!

When you think about that, you come to the swift conclusion that Ireland have done what they've done with a lot of character changes and more than possibly (although some will obviously argue differently) never played an ideal side through any of the three games.
That's impressive - as few sides in the world have the leisure to drift away from an ideal side (if everyone was fit) and still expect three wins from three in such games.

Yeah, considering the doom and gloom over the players we had missing and the injury list before the South Africa game this series has been unbelievably successful. And then we lost another key player in Chris Henry too!

The thing about unbelievable success though, is it needs to be treated the same as a loss. They need to come back and eviscerate their own performances just as thoroughly as they would have had they lost both games. As Kipling said "If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster, And treat those two impostors just the same"... I think they've learned they have to react to defeats and victories in exactly the same fashion.

But as fans, well, we should just enjoy it! It's been 8 years since we did this. Pretty brilliant for those of us who are lucky enough to just be watching from the sidelines.

That the game yesterday was one of the most riveting games of rugby in 2014 certainly helped.

The Saint wrote:BTW, I think 6 Nations is Ireland's to lose and there's a good chance you'll get your third grand slam in 70 years... Wales, Scotland, France and England can fight it out for second spot.

I wouldnt bet a penny on an ireland grand slam. Very very hard to beat France Eng and Wales in one campaign. Cant see it happening.

GunsGerms wrote:

The Saint wrote:BTW, I think 6 Nations is Ireland's to lose and there's a good chance you'll get your third grand slam in 70 years... Wales, Scotland, France and England can fight it out for second spot.

I wouldnt bet a penny on an ireland grand slam. Very very hard to beat France Eng and Wales in one campaign. Cant see it happening.

We really need to move on from this conservative attitude. We have the best team, the best coach and the best players. No reason why shouldn't put the likes England to the sword. It's not arrogance just belief!

Yeah we should beat England but all three is a big ask.

GunsGerms wrote:Yeah we should beat England but all three is a big ask.

Its not really. We do it all the time. I agree its just a mindset. Schmidt will certainly be aiming for a grand slam as beating 2 of the 3 SH sides in as many weeks says so. Forget whats historical and look at whats in front of you. Anything less than a grand slam as a goal would be meek.

And with this Irish side its not just about belief. Its about skill, talent, depth, and an ability to close out a match. And what can they lose? no grand slam? Theres bigger fish than the 6N for Ireland next year as well.

Last year there was a whisker between us and England. This year we have the home advantage and we have improved since the 6 nations. Have England?

Its the easier year to win for us with France at home as well. This is the fixture that needs to be targeted most IMO. Dont want any recent memories of losing to the French when we face them in the World Cup.

Taylorman wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Yeah we should beat England but all three is a big ask.

Its not really. We do it all the time. I agree its just a mindset. Schmidt will certainly be aiming for a grand slam as beating 2 of the 3 SH sides in as many weeks says so. Forget whats historical and look at whats in front of you. Anything less than a grand slam as a goal would be meek.

And with this Irish side its not just about belief. Its about skill, talent, depth, and an ability to close out a match. And what can they lose? no grand slam? Theres bigger fish than the 6N for Ireland next year as well.

With our wc group in mind a comprehensive win v France should be one of our main goals. We won the six nations this year so for me the next step is doing well at the WC and not so much next years 6n. Though I accept a good 6n may lay the foundations for a good wc run.

No, I want another Slam. Its what I want and want us to target every year. Behind the scenes it's the desired outcome every year from the players and coaches and has been since about 2005. They are here to win trophies. The mindset of Irish Rugby changed after the Triple Crown in 2004. Now we aspire to win the Six Nations every year and always have done; even when we were a desperately poor, under performing side much closer to the wooden spoon than the trophy we targeted winning every game and taking the trophy.

I don't think we go out and talk up these goals to the press or talk up our own chances, nor do I think we do anything fancier than just target the individual games as they come. Because the aspiration and expectation for Ireland is to win every single game they play, they may target them as individual games, but rather than targeting a Slam in the abstract sense we target 5 individual wins and expect to meet those 5 targets.

Even if we win all five games the coaches and senior players won't be content if we failed to execute some things well in those games. They are process and performance focused, not goal focused. And I think that suits our mentality.

GunsGerms wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Yeah we should beat England but all three is a big ask.

Its not really. We do it all the time. I agree its just a mindset. Schmidt will certainly be aiming for a grand slam as beating 2 of the 3 SH sides in as many weeks says so. Forget whats historical and look at whats in front of you. Anything less than a grand slam as a goal would be meek.

And with this Irish side its not just about belief. Its about skill, talent, depth, and an ability to close out a match. And what can they lose? no grand slam? Theres bigger fish than the 6N for Ireland next year as well.

With our wc group in mind a comprehensive win v France should be one of our main goals. We won the six nations this year so for me the next step is doing well at the WC and not so much next years 6n. Though I accept a good 6n may lay the foundations for a good wc run.

really? I wouldnt even bother linking the two. Ireland will finish first or second in the 6N probably regardless of how it plays. Schmidt needs to use the 6N partially as a way of figuring out how he's going to have a team not only reaching the semi's but competing sufficiently as well. Its likely if any side outside the top 5 that have reached finals will get hammered if they make a semi,not having had any experience of getting that far. Backing up weekly is a tough ask and Ireland have in the past dropped of too early. Now they have the side to push further.

Fact is Ireland are the new England when it comes to the World cup. Wales don't have the depth now..they won't have it in 12 months. England have stagnated to gone backwards, though they'll staunchly disagree, but the results confirm it. Ireland are the only side that really knows who its core squad will be 10 months out.

BlueMuff wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

The Saint wrote:BTW, I think 6 Nations is Ireland's to lose and there's a good chance you'll get your third grand slam in 70 years... Wales, Scotland, France and England can fight it out for second spot.

I wouldnt bet a penny on an ireland grand slam. Very very hard to beat France Eng and Wales in one campaign. Cant see it happening.

We really need to move on from this conservative attitude. We have the best team, the best coach and the best players. No reason why shouldn't put the likes England to the sword. It's not arrogance just belief!

Beating Aus and SA in consecutive weeks shows that you can I reckon. You got your ex bogey team France have to travel to Ireland. Italy should be a stroll, the rest are a challenge but its possible.

England have had a poor AI but given the return to fitness of our 1st and 2nd choice midfield Id be disappointed not to be seriously challenging for the 6Ns. Certainly dont think there ll be any side making it look easy.

Winning anything is very dependent on Paul O'Connell staying fit and healthy.

Sin é wrote:Winning anything is very dependent on Paul O'Connell staying fit and healthy.

It's true though. O'Connell and Sexton. We lose so much without both.

Careful!  We thought BOD was imperative..........................

Nobody on the planet is indispensible in anything they do.  There'll come a time when POC is no longer there, just like happened with BOD.  And certainly injury could take him out of the 6N at any time or even end his hopes of another WC.  We can't afford to believe we're schit without him.  We've come too far to put all our hopes in one man staying fit and staying in form.  

Let's just enjoy the time he's here and try to plan for when he's not there.

Great result for Ireland, if not a sterling display. Good to see the mental strength being able to bounce back from ceding the initiative and so many points at the end of the first half to win.

As a bit of an aside, why did Madigan and Heaslip stand screaming into each other's open yaps at the final whistle, then turn away and hug other players? Bit of a weird reaction to each other!!

Marshes wrote:why did Madigan and Heaslip stand screaming into each other's open yaps at the final whistle, then turn away and hug other players? Bit of a weird reaction to each other!!

Release of pent up tension. They both knew what they meant - hard hard test and came out the right end - major progress, new hopes.  
Just a release of that 'rage' and then cool enough to hug again

Schmidt has done well to extend the squad in his limited tenure, but in truth Ireland do not have enough depth in key positions. Ross is the only trusted TH and there is no one with any experience behind Heaslip. Murray and Sexton have no one pressing them, neither does Kearney. These are the five key positions in most teams and come the RWC all it takes is one or two injuries to scupper Ireland's chances. Ireland just don't have the numbers to win a RWC but with luck and the favourable draw they have a real chance of making the semi finals which would be a major achievement.

Joe should be using the 6N away games to build some contingency in these five positions if Ireland are to realise the dream of making the final four.

Ross, Furling, White, Archer, Ay You - just unfortunate that so many of them are injured or coming back from injury.
Heislip: POM has played at 8 for both Ireland and Munster. (No fear of Heislip getting injured anyway). CJ Stander will be Ireland qualified this time next year.
Murray: Reddan & Marmion. If we were really stuck, Peter Stringer or Tomas O'Leary could do a job.
Kearney: Felix Jones & Jared Payne. Zebo could do a job there as well.
Sexton: Madigan, Keatley & Jackson with JJ coming on as well.

Sin é wrote:Ross, Furling, White, Archer, Ay You - just unfortunate that so many of them are injured or coming back from injury.
Heislip: POM has played at 8 for both Ireland and Munster. (No fear of Heislip getting injured anyway). CJ Stander will be Ireland qualified this time next year.
Murray: Reddan & Marmion. If we were really stuck, Peter Stringer or Tomas O'Leary could do a job.
Kearney: Felix Jones & Jared Payne. Zebo could do a job there as well.
Sexton: Madigan, Keatley & Jackson with JJ coming on as well.

Why would you say that is Sin?

No fear of him busting a gut in a tackle. There is a reason he is never injured.

Sin é wrote:No fear of him busting a gut in a tackle. There is a reason he is never injured.

Ruck inspecting?

The Great Aukster wrote:Joe should be using the 6N away games to build some contingency in these five positions if Ireland are to realise the dream of making the final four.

I hate that, I really do. We've won one Grand Slam in sixty years- only two ever- and people are talking about using the Six Nations as a testing ground. So we can make a World Cup semi-final? There's no trophy for getting a semi-final and for a nation like Ireland to gamble everything on winning a World Cup... it would be foolish. And with England distracted by the pressures of hosting and France and England in Dublin, we have the kind of opportunity for silverware next year this country has often had to wait generations for.

You see there is a trophy for the Six Nations, a trophy we rarely win, and it's precisely because of that we need to go after it in the biggest possible way when we have the chance. Because we have a team good enough to win it and as we've seen every point in that tournament is crucial. So we'll not be experimenting for the World Cup, we'll be doing our damnedest to win 5 matches in a row as comprehensively as possible knowing that if we do that, it would mean this Ireland side had already matched the team from the late forties/early fifties as the best Irish side of all time. What a wave of momentum we'd be riding into the World Cup then!

Accuse me of lacking vision if you like but the point is, winning the Six Nations is a laudable vision in itself. That should be our target and we should only talk about the World Cup once the Six Nations is over. Using the Six Nations as a dry run for the World Cup is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We should pick whoever it takes to win the Six Nations and thats it.

The Munstercrunch Twins sayin' bad things about that lovely lad Heaslip????!!!!  

Oh the shame of it! - and with Joe Lovebud bein' sick an' all and it not bein a very nice thing to pick on players and saying stuff that does be not unifying the Nations of Ireland in common hatred of each other and everything!!!!

I'm going to tell your mammies you two are being bold, so there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Notch wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Joe should be using the 6N away games to build some contingency in these five positions if Ireland are to realise the dream of making the final four.

I hate that, I really do. We've won one Grand Slam in sixty years- only two ever- and people are talking about using the Six Nations as a testing ground. So we can make a World Cup semi-final? There's no trophy for getting a semi-final and for a nation like Ireland to gamble everything on winning a World Cup... it would be foolish. And with England distracted by the pressures of hosting and France and England in Dublin, we have the kind of opportunity for silverware next year this country has often had to wait generations for.

You see there is a trophy for the Six Nations, a trophy we rarely win, and it's precisely because of that we need to go after it in the biggest possible way when we have the chance. Because we have a team good enough to win it and as we've seen every point in that tournament is crucial. So we'll not be experimenting for the World Cup, we'll be doing our damnedest to win 5 matches in a row as comprehensively as possible knowing that if we do that, it would mean this Ireland side had already matched the team from the late forties/early fifties as the best Irish side of all time. What a wave of momentum we'd be riding into the World Cup then!

Accuse me of lacking vision if you like but the point is, winning the Six Nations is a laudable vision in itself. That should be our target and we should only talk about the World Cup once the Six Nations is over. Using the Six Nations as a dry run for the World Cup is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We should pick whoever it takes to win the Six Nations and thats it.

Only problem with all that Notch is that you can be certain the Irish management  WILL rate the WC next year a higher value target than the 6N.  They won't set out to lose the 6N in order to develop of course.  But they will have a mind of honing the team through a 6N so that what comes out the other end is pretty close to the ideal squad for the bigger contest down the road.

The sickening thing for me would be that Ireland puts all its efforts into the 6N, as other sides possibly continue to toy around with a few positions in preparation for the WC.  And that we'd hit a vein of form that won us another Championship or Slam..... but that England, France, Wales or even indeed Scotland grabbed a WC semi-final slot or a final slot or even won the damn thing as we still patted ourselves on the back about the 6N.

If something big happens for either France, England, Wales or Scotland in the next WC, we won't be able to sell the meaning of 6N 2015 to any of them.  We'd always get told they were too busy plotting and planning for the more important gig.  We lose the propaganda war... 6N 2015 wouldn't matter as a barometer of anything.

Schmidt was dragged into Ireland to improve our standing in world rugby, to improve our placings in the WC.  That's his main job description.  He and the team will want to win every game.... but you can't deny that the players themselves, the coaches and most fans are thinking WC in 2015 much more than 6N.

Thornley just stole this from IRFU archives:

Headmaster Joe finds Sin and Dod messing up the Ireland Dressing room with Red paint. Incriminating stuff which proves it ain't funny no more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXxVpqIst5g

ME-109 wrote:

Sin é wrote:No fear of him busting a gut in a tackle. There is a reason he is never injured.

Ruck inspecting?

He would be visible if he was ruck inspecting

SecretFly wrote:

Notch wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Joe should be using the 6N away games to build some contingency in these five positions if Ireland are to realise the dream of making the final four.

I hate that, I really do. We've won one Grand Slam in sixty years- only two ever- and people are talking about using the Six Nations as a testing ground. So we can make a World Cup semi-final? There's no trophy for getting a semi-final and for a nation like Ireland to gamble everything on winning a World Cup... it would be foolish. And with England distracted by the pressures of hosting and France and England in Dublin, we have the kind of opportunity for silverware next year this country has often had to wait generations for.

You see there is a trophy for the Six Nations, a trophy we rarely win, and it's precisely because of that we need to go after it in the biggest possible way when we have the chance. Because we have a team good enough to win it and as we've seen every point in that tournament is crucial. So we'll not be experimenting for the World Cup, we'll be doing our damnedest to win 5 matches in a row as comprehensively as possible knowing that if we do that, it would mean this Ireland side had already matched the team from the late forties/early fifties as the best Irish side of all time. What a wave of momentum we'd be riding into the World Cup then!

Accuse me of lacking vision if you like but the point is, winning the Six Nations is a laudable vision in itself. That should be our target and we should only talk about the World Cup once the Six Nations is over. Using the Six Nations as a dry run for the World Cup is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We should pick whoever it takes to win the Six Nations and thats it.

Only problem with all that Notch is that you can be certain the Irish management  WILL rate the WC next year a higher value target than the 6N.  They won't set out to lose the 6N in order to develop of course.  But they will have a mind of honing the team through a 6N so that what comes out the other end is pretty close to the ideal squad for the bigger contest down the road.

The sickening thing for me would be that Ireland puts all its efforts into the 6N, as other sides possibly continue to toy around with a few positions in preparation for the WC.  And that we'd hit a vein of form that won us another Championship or Slam..... but that England, France, Wales or even indeed Scotland grabbed a WC semi-final slot or a final slot or even won the damn thing as we still patted ourselves on the back about the 6N.

If something big happens for either France, England, Wales or Scotland in the next WC, we won't be able to sell the meaning of 6N 2015 to any of them.  We'd always get told they were too busy plotting and planning for the more important gig.  We lose the propaganda war...  6N 2015 wouldn't matter as a barometer of anything.

Schmidt was dragged into Ireland to improve our standing in world rugby, to improve our placings in the WC.  That's his main job description.  He and the team will want to win every game.... but you can't deny that the players themselves, the coaches and most fans are thinking WC in 2015 much more than 6N.

Hansen said the World cup is not about being the top dog (as we well know) but its about being the 'right' dog. Using the 6N as a test ground has negative connotations. Its suggesting you devalue the 6N by experimenting with a greater possibility of losing a match or two and that's not the intention.

All its calling for is looking for options that might assist during the world cup. Your sides are playing on the same grounds and will likely (particularly in Ireland's sake) using be using much of the same squad. There will be parallels between the two that can be accommodated and its just a matter of thrashing that out any advantages common to the two, even if its preparation, travel etc. There will be some commonality that can be accommodated. The real difference is managing 6 or 7 games in a row as opposed to one every two weeks.

I don't know what they are for Ireland but Hansen was able to extract something with the AI's. Sure, he's in a better position to try riskier options but that doesnt make it impossible for other sides to look for opportunities. Simply focussing on the next game is in some ways very myopic in terms of World cup prep.

I was unable to watch the match live but have now seen it.

Zebo's opening try was a lovely call and vision from both Zebo and Sexton, it was a wonderful score.

Tommy's try was some vision from him especially given the circumstances and the Aussies looked to score in that play. Simply stunning from him.

The communication between Zebo and Sexton broke down for the Aussies try. I can see what Zebo and Sexton were trying to do and if it had come off would have been a very decent move. That said, the defending after loosing possession was quite poor.

The Aussies second try was again, very poor defending and I am sure that Joe will make the team watch both tries over and over again.

I thought that Ireland closed out the game well. This to me is the major difference, under Joe, Ireland seem to have a lot more self belief as a team. Still lots of area's to work on but the difference is clear to see. Very happy with the direction Ireland are heading.

Given the zero offload policy in the south Africa game I was pleasantly surprised to see Zebo attempt a one handed, blind, round the corner offload against Australia. Good to see that there is still room for a bit of invention in the defensive machine.
Absolutely delighted with that win. The most pleasing thing for me was how Ireland learned and adapted to Australia as the game wore on. We were being torn apart in the centres. Not surprising they targeted us there given the novelty of our centre partnership but in the second half we always seemed to have a backrow out there lending a hand.

Nachos Jones wrote:I was unable to watch the match live but have now seen it.

Zebo's opening try was a lovely call and vision from both Zebo and Sexton, it was a wonderful score.

Tommy's try was some vision from him especially given the circumstances and the Aussies looked to score in that play. Simply stunning from him.

The communication between Zebo and Sexton broke down for the Aussies try. I can see what Zebo and Sexton were trying to do and if it had come off would have been a very decent move. That said, the defending after loosing possession was quite poor.

The Aussies second try was again, very poor defending and I am sure that Joe will make the team watch both tries over and over again.

I thought that Ireland closed out the game well. This to me is the major difference, under Joe, Ireland seem to have a lot more self belief as a team. Still lots of area's to work on but the difference is clear to see. Very happy with the direction Ireland are heading.

This was a huge point in our favour alright.Unlike the NZ and France games last year we weren't hanging on in the end.Our linespeed was aggressive and Oz never really looked like making the breakthrough,that shows the team has really learned from previous mistakes which is a great sign.PoC was outstanding in this regard,he really led the line in defense and for a man his age to look like he's still learning and improving his game is some achievement.

SecretFly wrote:The sickening thing for me would be that Ireland puts all its efforts into the 6N, as other sides possibly continue to toy around with a few positions in preparation for the WC.  And that we'd hit a vein of form that won us another Championship or Slam..... but that England, France, Wales or even indeed Scotland grabbed a WC semi-final slot or a final slot or even won the damn thing as we still patted ourselves on the back about the 6N.

Short of them winning, honestly wouldn't care. Does anyone give a £$*$ that England got to the Final in 2007? Or Wales got to the semi-final in 2011? No, of course not. There are two categories come the World Cup; the eventual winners and everyone else. People remember the winners and thats it. There's one winner and 19 losers and I don't really think losing better this time is worth undermining our chances in the Six Nations. Whether you are 2nd or 20th in the RWC you're still a loser. Same applies in the Six Nations; from 2nd to 6th you are a loser. There can only be one winner in both tournaments.

If you offered me 2nd in the Six Nations and 2nd in the World Cup versus 1st in the Six Nations and a group stage exit in the World Cup I would take the Six Nations win every time. The second option we win a trophy. The first we don't. It's a complete and total no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

The chances of Joe carrying out some experimentation or "different" combinations in the 6nations are about as likely as George Hook becoming a good pundit. Schmidt will go all out to win. Also our attacking play is still very stilted and tends to go nowhere I would presume he will be looking to improve things in this area. A settled team will make this more likely.

Notch wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The sickening thing for me would be that Ireland puts all its efforts into the 6N, as other sides possibly continue to toy around with a few positions in preparation for the WC.  And that we'd hit a vein of form that won us another Championship or Slam..... but that England, France, Wales or even indeed Scotland grabbed a WC semi-final slot or a final slot or even won the damn thing as we still patted ourselves on the back about the 6N.

Short of them winning, honestly wouldn't care. Does anyone give a £$*$ that England got to the Final in 2007? Or Wales got to the semi-final in 2011? No, of course not. There are two categories come the World Cup; the eventual winners and everyone else. People remember the winners and thats it. There's one winner and 19 losers and I don't really think losing better this time is worth undermining our chances in the Six Nations. Whether you are 2nd or 20th in the RWC you're still a loser. Same applies in the Six Nations; from 2nd to 6th you are a loser. There can only be one winner in both tournaments.

If you offered me 2nd in the Six Nations and 2nd in the World Cup versus 1st in the Six Nations and a group stage exit in the World Cup I would take the Six Nations win every time. The second option we win a trophy. The first we don't. It's a complete and total no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

That's where we diverge violently Notch.
Nope - to me, you try to challenge hardest in the highest competition you're involved in.  

We value highly the 6N in Europe - but to the SH nations, it's crud.  I really mean that - that's their hard headed, cold and functional attitude to our little NH jamboree.  Oh it's entertaining to them to an extent (the few of them who probably watch it from start to finish) but when their watching is done - it's a yawn and disinterest.  They don't really care where Ireland or Wales or England came in last year's 6N or the year before that.

So - the WC is the 6N with the SH sides involved, if you want to look at it like that.  The WC becomes the true contest of who is best and who is close to being best.  France dominate European involvement in the contest and yet are always ridiculed for only doing well in 6N after the rest of us have come back from Lions duty.  I always say nope - they habitually do well after Lions tours (not this time!) because their cycle is WC focused not 6N focused - and the WC follows Lions.

Saying an Irish Province should go all out to win a Pro12 title at the expense of holding something back for the blunderbuss games of the ERCC, is to me an alien idea.  If Leinster won another Pro12 contest after having been kicked unceremoniously out of the ERCC, it would be no consolation to me.  Pro12 is a smaller contest.  I'd much prefer to see Leinster in a ERCC final and lose than to crow about another Pro12 title.  I'd prefer us to be 4th or 5th in Pro12 if it meant a final in ERCC.

For me it's not about trophies - they're metal and they're shiny, so what?  Kids get trophies.  To me its all about Reputation.  That's my primary motivation in anything I watch or do - not the prizes but reputation.  With the WC, reputations stick more than they do with 6N wins.

SecretFly wrote:

Notch wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The sickening thing for me would be that Ireland puts all its efforts into the 6N, as other sides possibly continue to toy around with a few positions in preparation for the WC.  And that we'd hit a vein of form that won us another Championship or Slam..... but that England, France, Wales or even indeed Scotland grabbed a WC semi-final slot or a final slot or even won the damn thing as we still patted ourselves on the back about the 6N.

Short of them winning, honestly wouldn't care. Does anyone give a £$*$ that England got to the Final in 2007? Or Wales got to the semi-final in 2011? No, of course not. There are two categories come the World Cup; the eventual winners and everyone else. People remember the winners and thats it. There's one winner and 19 losers and I don't really think losing better this time is worth undermining our chances in the Six Nations. Whether you are 2nd or 20th in the RWC you're still a loser. Same applies in the Six Nations; from 2nd to 6th you are a loser. There can only be one winner in both tournaments.

If you offered me 2nd in the Six Nations and 2nd in the World Cup versus 1st in the Six Nations and a group stage exit in the World Cup I would take the Six Nations win every time. The second option we win a trophy. The first we don't. It's a complete and total no-brainer as far as I'm concerned.

That's where we diverge violently Notch.
Nope - to me, you try to challenge hardest in the highest competition you're involved in.  

We value highly the 6N in Europe - but to the SH nations, it's crud.  I really mean that - that's their hard headed, cold and functional attitude to our little NH jamboree.  Oh it's entertaining to them to an extent (the few of them who probably watch it from start to finish) but when their watching is done - it's a yawn and disinterest.  They don't really care where Ireland or Wales or England came in last year's 6N or the year before that.

So - the WC is the 6N with the SH sides involved, if you want to look at it like that.  The WC becomes the true contest of who is best and who is close to being best.  France dominate European involvement in the contest and yet are always ridiculed for only doing well in 6N after the rest of us have come back from Lions duty.  I always say nope - they habitually do well after Lions tours (not this time!) because their cycle is WC focused not 6N focused - and the WC follows Lions.

Saying an Irish Province should go all out to win a Pro12 title at the expense of holding something back for the blunderbuss games of the ERCC, is to me an alien idea.  If Leinster won another Pro12 contest after having been kicked unceremoniously out of the ERCC, it would be no consolation to me.  Pro12 is a smaller contest.  I'd much prefer to see Leinster in a ERCC final and lose than to crow about another Pro12 title.  I'd prefer us to be 4th or 5th in Pro12 if it meant a final in ERCC.

For me it's not about trophies - they're metal and they're shiny, so what?  Kids get trophies.  To me its all about Reputation.  That's my primary motivation in anything I watch or do - not the prizes but reputation.  With the WC, reputations stick more than they do with 6N wins.

WHO CARES what the SH think of the 6ns. I still want to win a Grand Slam and also the World Cup. Jeez why dont we just go and trawl the SH for more players. That might make you happier. SH players playing like the SH. No need for some pesky Irish. First it was the coach's and now its the players... .

RE the French. They are not WC focused. They put a big effort into winning the Grand slam every time. If they lose one game they dont give a flying fornication about it. Thats just a choice thing with the players....

Notch wrote: Does anyone give a £$*$ that England got to the Final in 2007?

I do. I remember that 2007 tournament with greater fondness than winning the 2011 Six Nations. Beating Australia, then France, then the final in consecutive weekends was tremendous for me as a supporter. To do something similar next year would be very welcome.

ME-109 wrote:The chances of Joe carrying out some experimentation or "different" combinations in the 6nations are about as likely as George Hook becoming a good pundit. Schmidt will go all out to win. Also our attacking play is still very stilted and tends to go nowhere I would presume he will be looking to improve things in this area. A settled team will make this more likely.

And what do we all mean when we say he'll be honing towards a WC?  That's exactly what we mean - it's certainly what I mean.  

Joe will use the 6N to tighten up systems as best he can with his mind fully focused on WC.  IF he can tighten up on systems (and possibly change combinations here and there in certain games, which he'll undoubtedly do) then he automatically knows that will give Ireland a better chance of winning both in 6N itself and also then in WC.

Experimentation doesn't mean we think he's gonna put POC at 8, drop He'saslop and put Dave Kearney at 10.  Experimentation means he'll probably give some if not all of the 6N 13 position to Payne (who didn't get enough of a run out in AI to make a decision on him yet).  He might give a few games to Jones at 15.    If Healy is back, Healy will be back.  If O'Brien is back, O'Brien will be back.  If Trimble is back, he'll be back in contention too.  Healy or O'Brien or Trimble, if used at all, the will be 'experiments' with the other guys who have come in since.  We haven't seen such teams operate yet.  It'll be experimental...it won't be a 'settled team' just like the AI 'settled team' wasn't really all that similar to the last 6N 'settled' one.

Schmidt will know what's ahead of him - it's name is the World Cup.  He will be thinking about it, regardless of his protestation that he isn't.  And his thoughts about it will appear in 6N.  He's not going to seek to somehow lose the 6N to better help his WC preparations.  But he will try to win the 6N with one of his eyes fully fixed on the WC.

ME-109 wrote:
WHO CARES what the SH think of the 6ns. I still want to win a Grand Slam and also the World Cup. Jeez why dont we just go and trawl the SH for more players. That might make you happier. SH players playing like the SH. No need for some pesky Irish. First it was the coach's and now its the players... .

RE the French. They are not WC focused. They put a big effort into winning the Grand slam every time. If they lose one game they dont give a flying fornication about it. Thats just a choice thing with the players....

You just don't get it do you. The SH annoy the schit out of you and many other 'Europeans'. I laugh at this bullschit Marine Chant from our neighbours whenever one of us plays a SH side - Do it for the NH!!!!. WOW, a win for the NH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Crap. Enjoy that show if it's the one you tune into, DOD. I call it comedy. High comedy.

Ireland is Ireland to me. The only 'European' side I support. The others are rivals. And the best rivals exist in the SH - whether you like to admit that or not. It's the truth. If you don't want to contemplate the idea of forcing them - the best - to respect you as one of them - the best - then away with you. Ireland for GS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That'll stuff the All Black's opinion of us! That'll put the fear of God into them

You're priceless twisting and coiling logic these last few days, ME. Just say it - ol Joe has impressed youy with his trigonometry ways.

I'd prefer to finish 2nd in the world cup than win the 6 nations. Its nice to win things but Irish rugby needs a good world cup run. Not that I take winning the 6 nations for granted but a good run in the world cup would give the game a massive boost.

I watched the France Argentina game the other night. Argentina are starting to find some players not and will be no push over if we meet in the quarter final.

This thread has gone wierd. Seems like you can't do well in the RWC if you do well in the 6Ns. And if someone thinks the 6N is important they are small minded while if you are focusing on the RWC you are getting ahead of yourself.

Our problem was always committing to a matchday squad way to early, just focusing on those players and then trying to cotton-wool them through 18-24 months of a highly aggressive and violent contact sport to peak at a period of time.

We need to shift that emphasis to developing and maintaining a stable of quality players. Where the next in line can come on for the final 5 minutes of a game or start and the team will continue in stride. And getting to that standard and maintaining that standard doesn't work if you write-off games and competitions between now and a RWC for outright experimentation. The squad should always have a bit of experimentation. The standards should be consistently high. The matchday squad should always have some rotation (though some of that is forced by injury).

We are probably putting too much over-reliance on Sexton-Murray-POC-Ross. The one thing we can be assured of in this contact sport is that players will go down between now and the RWC. We'll have to deal with them as they come. It would have been said not too long ago what would Ireland do without BOD, without Best, without O'Brien, without Healy? Henshaw can do the job, Cronin can do the job, Henry (even Ruddock) can do the job, McGrath can do the job.