T4; Sydney

First topic message reminder :

well there is hope now and life back in test cricket.
We drew T3 because of one act of postiivity on D5 of T1....by Kohli wanting to and nearly chasing down.
and that is what delayed Smith's declaration yesterday.

and Shastri said I don't care whether we go down 2-0 or 3-0........we will try to win....as defiant as one can get to Dhoni's ways......in the BCCI culture of gagged mouths.

India may ( and should) play 2 spinners.....throw Patel in, now that he has arrived and both spinners can bat a bit.

added cushion can come in the form of batsman WK Naman Ojha

so Patel for Rahul
Ojha for Dhoni
and if Bhuvi is fit then he is in for someone like shami

Kedar Jadhav may not be a bad option down at 6. He's an attacking batsman with a good range of shots. If he can balance it with time at the crease, could be a worthy addition. His season so far though, hasn't been as good as the previous one.......
Jackson is from Saurashtra.......
Manoj Tiwary and Ambati Rayudu aren't setting the domestic seen alight with their performances this season. Rayudu in particular hasn't had any innings of note so far in the season. Tiwary has been finding some runs of late and had a good time in the domestic one-dayers. Its is a good time for them to make a case for themselves, but they need to do it in a consistent way. I have had my doubts on Rayudu in particular though....... Would have preferred Yuvraj in his place in the WC side by the way.

Why would you drop Ishant? He had good tours of NZ and Eng and despite being poor here, did bowl some good spells and kept things tight generally. Yadav and Aaron are both living on the back of thei speedgun and not actual bowling abilities. I'd much rather both be sent to FC cricket to learn to actually,, "bowl". The basics of bowling seem to be lost on them. Shami was better than the others here and given his ability to reverse the ball, I'd persist with him in Asia. He needs to learn to bowl with the new ball though but I think he has got skills worth working with unlike Yadav and Aaron, who need to start from stretch. Bhuvi should be in the mix due to his all round abilities but I remain skeptical of his abilities as a pure bowler in Asian conditions or anywhere outside England tbh.

I would say your pace attack maybe need to spend a season on decks a little more rewarding to pace bowling, so they can understand the value of line and length, and the virtues of pressure, instead of going for a magic ball every second delivery. Don't know where that would be though, as the SA and Aus leagues overlap with the Ranji trophy, and all your major pace bowlers play IPL, so county teams may not want to take on guys who'll play maybe two odd matches

Well, this Test didn't end with a clatter of wickets or a succession of boundaries but it was still a pretty enthralling final day.

I suspected from the start of day 5 that India's target was a step too far and this was confirmed for me before lunch. Nonetheless, they produced a determined batting performance to deny Australia victory and one which shows promise for the future. India do though clearly need to sort out their bowling attack and massively work on their fielding.

With a bit more luck Australia might have got there although they didn't always help themselves. Their own fielding ranged from brilliant (Smith's slip catch, Warner's anticipation and work on the boundary and most places, one stop by the ropes from Harris) to poor or worse (Marsh's drop, Harris' uncharacteristic petulant and wayward hurl at the stumps which went for 4 runs).

Also, the cricketing gods could have shone more on Lyon although he never seemed to quite develop a fully regular pattern. How different things might have been if that stumping appeal (excellent vision and work from Haddin) against Sharma had been answered positively. From what I saw, I would have (eventually) given it. Yes, it was mighty, mighty tight but that doesn't automatically mean it was not out. I certainly saw the batsman on the line (ie out of his crease) but never saw a picture to convince me that he was back in his crease when the stumps were broken. Small margins etc.

Make no mistake, Smith's had a very fine start to his Test captaincy career. Excellent with the bat, a winning series and undefeated. However, even though it's very early days, I get the impression that he needs to be aware of his body language in the field. I'm not going overboard about this (cf, imo, KP_f) but do feel it's something Smith might need to watch - too often he appeared overly angry when his team would probably have benefited from a calming influence.

Anyway, really enjoyed this series and much of the discussions here.

ShankyCricket wrote:Why would you drop Ishant? He had good tours of NZ and Eng and despite being poor here, did bowl some good spells and kept things tight generally. Yadav and Aaron are both living on the back of thei speedgun and not actual bowling abilities. I'd much rather both be sent to FC cricket to learn to actually,, "bowl". The basics of bowling seem to be lost on them. Shami was better than the others here and given his ability to reverse the ball, I'd persist with him in Asia. He needs to learn to bowl with the new ball though but I think he has got skills worth working with unlike Yadav and Aaron, who need to start from stretch. Bhuvi should be in the mix due to his all round abilities but I remain skeptical of his abilities as a pure bowler in Asian conditions or anywhere outside England tbh.

Ishant never had an extended spell in first class cricket. He was picked for the national side at a very young age of 18 and hs been around the squad since then when he has been fit. He has the attributes to become a very good seam bowler, ones upon a time, he could even bowl reasonably quick to very quick!. He has failed to make use of his physical attributes, and doesn't seem to be thinking at all when bowling. Perhaps a longish spell in domestic cricket on flat roads will help him think about his bowling. Besides that, he should get some targeted and personalized support to. The BCCI really need to do something about support for the team. Judicial battles and international power struggles can wait.......

Umesh Yadav was absolutely dreadful in this test. But I must say at this stage he seems a much better bowler than Aaron is. He was just about OK in the other 2 games he played, looked like capable of picking a wicket or 2 at times. When playing along side Zaheer, he could reverse swing the ball at good speeds. That was before his injury. Since returning, he never had the opportunity to play along with Zaheer. Perhaps the BCCI should look at securing Zaheer's services as the bowling coach. He was a great help to Dhoni when he was playing and was the leader of the bowling unit in every sense and the younger seamers really looked up to him.

Who would you pick? Don't say you'd persist with Yadav and Aaron whilst dropping Ishant?


Rahul should get a long run. Uthappa as backup opener.

msp, Umesh Yadav had a dreadful season in the Ranji Trophy last year which is why he didn't get picked in the XI in SA and NZ and was left out of the squad in Eng. He has been struggling for a long time now in the longer format. Personally, I don't get the hype. Just like Aaron, he is all about the speed gun. I don't see any genuine skill unlike Shami, who can be worked around it.

uthappa as back up opener..... are u high?

@msp
Tiwary is the best batsman in India....probably second to Kohli.
He doesn't need to score runs in EVERY game he play..

ditto Rayadu...don't discount his runs against Lanka in ODIs...he doesn't need to score runs in every FC game

these two are proven and need to get the first breaks.

@shanky...I hear Ishant  had fitnes issues....he will remain in the pool of pacers but will not be granted an automatic place in the 11 all the time.
India's pool should contain Ishant, Aaron, Yadav, Shami, Bhuvi, and stretched to Pandey, Sandeep, Kulkarni, Mohit and maybe shardul

and we need a good Bowling coach.....and trust me with the amount of cricket we play the entire pool will be utilized.

ShankyCricket wrote:msp, Umesh Yadav had a dreadful season in the Ranji Trophy last year which is why he didn't get picked in the XI in SA and NZ and was left out of the squad in Eng. He has been struggling for a long time now in the longer format. Personally, I don't get the hype. Just like Aaron, he is all about the speed gun. I don't see any genuine skill unlike Shami, who can be worked around it.

Shanky, Yadav got injured during the home series against England just when he was getting himself established in the side. He was not only able to bowl fast then, but also reverse the old ball, and along with Zaheer, he was forming a useful bowling partnership. He did struggle a bit last season, coming off a longish layoff, but was good in the A team games and thus came back in.
A bowler who can reverse the ball at Yadav's pace should be an asset to the side. But he too need to work on many aspects of his bowling........
Shami was impressive during his debut series, but has clearly regressed since. He bowls wickettaking deliveries, but offers a lot of hit me stuff regularly. And like Munaf Patel and Ishant and many others before him, is losing out on his pace. It was the combination of speed and reverse that made him such an attractive proposition early in his career, but if he bowls in the early 130s on an average and serves up the amount of garbage deliveries that he has done in this series, there is absolutely no hope. But the good thing for both Yadav and him, and for that matter Ishant and Aaron, is that they are all young still, only in their mid-20s.......
As for the pool, I would have most the names KPF mentioned there. Don't think the likes of Dhawal Kulkarni are test class. But Sandeep Sharma is a definit prospect, and Ishwar Pandey can evolve into a decent bowler. Gujarat's Jasprit Bumrah is another one to watch out for.
By the way, what about the spin department? You still think Karn Sharma is the answer?

A telling article on Indian bowling v captaincy. They broke Dhoni the captain, will they do the same to Kohli too?
As always, Virat is talking tough though.......
http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia-v-india-2014-15/content/current/story/819763.html

msp83 wrote:A telling article on Indian bowling v captaincy. They broke Dhoni the captain, will they do the same to Kohli too?
As always, Virat is talking tough though.......
http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia-v-india-2014-15/content/current/story/819763.html

just because its written by a widely read publication, it automatically doesn't become true....


Dhoni broke the best of bowling talents......conditioning them to be line and length medium pacer with variations to control an ODI game over 60 tests...
new captain thrown in midst of a series , not afforded his own team can hardly do anything first game

How many ODIs have Varun Aaron played? for that matter Umesh? Get off it, KPF!.

msp83 wrote:How many ODIs have Varun Aaron played? for that matter Umesh? Get off it, KPF!.

he who was handling Yadav and Aaron in tests conditoned them to bowl like ODIs in tests carries the responsibility.

And both of them, all said and done were not bowling medium pace....... They were all over the place, but not bowling medium pace line and length with variations.

trivia
Suresh Raina has recorded a PAIR vs Australia - his second in Tests - the first being vs England at The Oval in 2011. He has failed to score in his last three Test innings, recording a hat-trick of ducks. In fact, in his last seven Test outongs he has recorded 5 ducks

Hope Ravi Shastri has got the message loud and clear!. Raina isn't test class, no point in investing in him any more. We have had limited over specialists like Ajay Jadeja and Robin Singh in the past, they did well in ODIs but couldn't do it in tests. Leave Raina for the shorter stuff.......

Despite not seeing the last match , I noted several good reasons for India to be hopeful appearing during this series. And the scores here in Sydney suggest Rahul's awful debut was indeed just a blip and he may well be another bright batting light going forward along with Kohli , Rahane and Vijay. Just have to work on those other two batting spots - and most teams , even the strong ones - usually have one position only marked in pencil in any case.
Losing Dhoni as keeper and six/seven bat , whatever one may think of his captaincy , is a blow ; but it was coming sooner or later , and in truth he looked to be past his best in these matches (though I do wonder if , freed from the leadership pressure , he might have had an Indian Summer while newcomers were bedded in , had he been willing to stay on for a year or so ? We will never know) Wasn't too impressed with Saha in Adelaide but it is early days...

The bowling remains the problem. I am more pro- Ashwin than a lot of Indian fans : he can bat well enough for seven , and at a minimum can give some control while bowling. In this series this didn't help as much as it might due to the (general) incompetence of the pace
bowlers . True he needs more : would hope he has the sense to talk to some of the past legends of Indian spin bowling who surely would be willing to help him , if he'll listen ? I think guildford said he'd be better in a five man attack ; and I would agree. But that would call for a keeper/bat of stature and/or another all rounder type really worth his place...Indian fans may have ideas ?
I think for now I would let the pace attack form around Ishant (!) I know he has flaws ; but he has more reliability now in most conditions , and until someone better comes along he'd be my choice as the "steady" pace man , so that young hopefuls can develop around him. With a bit of horses for courses selection...

Replacing Tendulkar , Dravid etc was never happening overnight ; but I reckon some steps have been taken these last few weeks. Grounds for optimism.

I don't think there is any 'answer' in the spin department. The home season allows us to experiment. After the buffet vs Bangladesh, we tour Sri Lanka in August, face SA at home before a possible tour of the UAE to face arch rivals Pakistan. All these sides play spin quite well and I think we'll need to play 5 bowlers to beat them, particularly SA. That would obviously mean playing 3 spinners and 2 seamers. I still don't think.Ashwin has the skillset to ever be India's No.1 spinner in overseas conditions. I'm not questioning his effort. He just doesn't have the skill. He has improved his control though, which suggests he could be a useful second spinner. Considering we don't have any other worthy offspinning option, he becomes an automatic choice when we are playing 3 spinners in the subcontinent. As for the second spinner's slot, I know you have some serious man love for Jadeja msp, but I just see Axar Patel as a much better long term option in Test cricket. Jadeja's home record is terrific and he should be in.the squad. But I'd prefer Axar to get the first shot cos I see better long term potential in him overseas. As for the 3rd spinners' slot, I'd experiment a bit more and gamble on an attacking, potentially exciting spinner (preferably a leggie) who could potentially be our no.1 spinner overseas. Playing 3 spinners allows us the room to experiment a bit :and we have to be prepared to gamble a bit for the long term sake of the Test overseas rather than just picking the best XI to win at home. If the experiment doesn't work, we can always go back to someone like Jadeja but I'd like to see us at least try this option.out against Bangladesh and take it from.there. Of course,.winning at home is important and we need to pick a team that is still good enough to win at home whilst still having a long term view to developing a good team overseas and I think this would be the best way to make it happen.

ShankyCricket wrote:   I still don't think.Ashwin has the skillset to ever be India's No.1 spinner in overseas conditions. I'm not questioning his effort. He just doesn't have the skill. He has improved his control though, which suggests he could be a useful second spinner. Considering we don't have any other worthy offspinning option, he becomes an automatic choice when we are playing 3 spinners in the subcontinent.

that's what pretty much Ganguly also thinks of Ashwin and I also have been saying the same.
For a traditionally spin strong nation like India.....we cannot settle for our first overseas spinner to be such a defensive / mediocre option like Ashwin especially given that our top 3 seamers are also not great.
We gotta keep looking for a match winner.....and it has to be an offie who can bowl doosra like another Bhajji
OR a leggie......groom Karn or anotehr one
or a mystery spinner like Kuldip yadav's gotta be tried

http://www.gocricket.com/news/Australia-vs-India-2014-15-Unfair-to-compare-MS-Dhoni-and-Virat-Kohli-says-Sourav-Ganguly/articleshow/45846681.cms

Whats the latest on Shreyas Gopal?

There is a reason why Karn Sharma averages 2 wickets per game in FC cricket. He's never going to be India's Shane Warne!. Not even a poor man's Stuart McGill or Danish Kaneria or Mushtaq for that matter. People are writing off Ashwin who has more than a hundred test wickets, I am taking an early call on Sharma, he's not test class, and will not become so any time in the near future. He's 28 and as such, is not worth investing further.
Can't see what is it that people see too much extra in Akshar Patel that Ravindra Jadeja does not have. In my view, their bowling is a lot more similar than being different. Can't see him becoming the next Bishan Bedi!.
Kuldeep Yadav is an interesting call, but I would like to see him learn his craft a bit in domestic cricket for now. Particularly as he's a chinaman with a reputation for mystery. Want to see how domestic batsman find his mystery to be. Want to see whether he can sustain his initial success after the batsmen have a sense of his mystery. Wouldn't want him to be an Ajantha Mendis type.......

After playing 1 Ranji game for UP, Kuldeep got injured and hasn't returned as yet. Hope he stays focused on the longer format and does not get sidetracked by all the T-20 glitter.

msp83 wrote:There is a reason why Karn Sharma averages 2 wickets per game in FC cricket. He's never going to be India's Shane Warne!. Not even a poor man's Stuart McGill or Danish Kaneria or Mushtaq for that matter. People are writing off Ashwin who has more than a hundred test wickets, I am taking an early call on Sharma, he's not test class, and will not become so any time in the near future. He's 28 and as such, is not worth investing further.
Can't see what is it that people see too much extra in Akshar Patel that Ravindra Jadeja does not have. In my view, their bowling is a lot more similar than being different. Can't see him becoming the next Bishan Bedi!.

I see all that you see...and i request you to read again...my post , esepcially the underlined parst.....and realize that I do see what you see.
None of us knows whether Karn or Kuldeep will make the cut and certainly Patel is not a mystery spinner and not like to be anything significantly more than Oja/ Jadeja.

The key here is to believe as a nation with such a strong spin culture and history...we will find one or two guys who are
either Offies with a doosra
or a good leggie with  a googly
or a mystery / chinaman type bowler

keep looking until we find one.....not settle for an ashwin or jadeja or a Patel as our first option.

KPF wrote:We gotta keep looking for a match winner.....and it has to be an offie who can bowl doosra like another Bhajji
OR a leggie......groom Karn or anotehr one
or a mystery spinner like Kuldip yadav's gotta be tried

KPF - I agree you should keep looking for your match winner but, unless you feel close to finding what you are after, have doubts that it should be done in a Test environment.

As I suggested recently to Shanky, sometimes your best option is still to play the hand you've been dealt even though it's far from the one you would have wished for.

Msp, why are you not willing to give Axar a chance and just rigid on sticking with Jadeja?

Because Jadeja has done everything asked of him in home tests and has an outstanding record. Akshar hasn't set the world alight with his domestic performances though he has done alright. If he has to be picked over Jadeja who has done really really well, then he has to make an outstanding case for it.
How about picking Sanju Samson for Ajinkya Rahane because the former is full of potential?

which spinner has not done well at home ?

even Amit Mishra has 32 wickets in 8 tests at home and BD at a decent average?

comparing rahane ( proven success overseas) is not an apt analogy to Jadeja.....who is a HTB.

comparing jadeja to Dhawan....another HTB is more approrpiate.

KPF, I understand your case for a match winning spinner, and agree that an offspinner with a doosra or a leggy or a chinaman spinner can be a good start in that search. But they have to have enough of a case made for themselves through performances so that they can be picked.
We do have a good, solid tradition in spin bowling, but these our spin scenario isn't that great. Bhaji himself has gone on record recently, saying domestic pitches are not good for the development of spin bowling any more. They seem to help medium pacers these days more than spinners. Spinners have become more defensive, and even our batsmen aren't as dominant against spin as they ones used to be.......
So as Guildford says, we have to play with the hand that has been dealt, and hope a better prospect will emerge. I am convinced Karn Sharma isn't that prospect, and I am not sure Akshar can offer much more than the current ones do. Kuldeep is one to look for, but I certainly won't rush him to test cricket as yet.......
So as of now, Ashwin, Jadeja and Akshar will be my spin options, and the one who is in good form would play overseas...... Ashwin can bat, Jadeja can slog and if he applies himself, can bat too, and Akshar has potential with the bat, and that is a value addition to the side.

KP_fan wrote:which spinner has not done well at home ?

even Amit Mishra has 32 wickets in 8 tests at home and BD at a decent average?

comparing rahane ( proven success  overseas) is not an apt analogy to Jadeja.....who is a HTB.

comparing jadeja to Dhawan....another HTB is more approrpiate.

Amit Mishra, Piyush Chawla, the latter day Harbhajan Singh.......
Mishra has 25 at 43 at home. Is that what is called Decent? Compare That with Jadeja's 27 from 3 less tests at an average of 19 which is absolutely outstanding. This is apart from the terrific economy rate that Jadeja has.

msp83 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:which spinner has not done well at home ?

even Amit Mishra has 32 wickets in 8 tests at home and BD at a decent average?

comparing rahane ( proven success  overseas) is not an apt analogy to Jadeja.....who is a HTB.

comparing jadeja to Dhawan....another HTB is more approrpiate.

Amit Mishra, Piyush Chawla, the latter day Harbhajan Singh.......
Mishra has 25 at 43 at home. Is that what is called Decent? Compare That with Jadeja's 27 from 3 less tests at an average of 19 which is absolutely outstanding. This is apart from the terrific economy rate that Jadeja has.

piyush chawla has turned into an allrounder he lost his bowling...and doesn't figure in the scheme of things.

Mishra has 32 including BD numbers.
Oja has 100 wickets at home as has ashwin.
Bhajji.......has a great overall home record. I am not asking to bring him back but until he hit expiry date, he was great.

yes jadeja has a slightly better home strike rate......but we will win at home even if we use Mishra, Karna, Ojha ( if he is allowed to bowl) or Jalaj or Rasool.
The pitches are taking the wickets.....and a pack of any 3 good Ranji spinners thrown in will win us the test......against most sides.

I am not stopping Jadeja from playing at home......but he is not among the top 2 spinners for overseas conditions.

I am not setting Mishra's numbers in Bangladesh aside, but 25 wickets from 8 tests at 43 does not suggest that any half-decent Ranji spinner can run through any sides on home tracks. There is a world of difference between a bowling average of 43 and a bowling average of 19. Jadeja has better overall FC numbers as well, suggesting there is a qualitative difference between the 2. So Jadeja's wickets should not be set aside just like that, he has earned those and that needs to be recognized. He's proven to be better than the likes of Mishra and Chawla by miles, and in search of the nonexistent magic spinner who is the combination of Warne, Kumble, Murali and Vettori, we should not denigrate the actual achievements that the likes of Jadeja have earned.
He's not in the class of the Indian spin tradition, but he can certainly do a decent job, and there is no obvious talent who has proven himself to be better than him.

we can win at home without Jadeja.

we cannot win overseas with Jadeja

He is like Dhawan...tiger at home....and yet Dhawan got dumped.
so we gotta look beyond Jadeja for overseas series.

since at home we play 3 spinners....Jadeja can be one of the 3 spinners

We didn't win against England without Jadeja. We won against Australia at home with Jadeja!.
Not saying he was the decisive factor in either of the series, though his role in the Australia series was outstanding. Both Harbhajan Singh and Pragyan Ojha struggled in that series it has to be remembered. You and I are in agreement that Jadeja deserves to play the home tests. I don't think he should be an automatic selection for overseas tests. I don't think many others have made a case to be picked over him though, and I don't think throwing in bowler after bowler just for the sake of it is the way to go though. And I totally disagree that any bowler who bowls some spin in Ranji can easily run through any test batting lineup just like that, its proven to be an empirical fallacy.

OK msp...we have reached as much agreement as we could on this subject.

India does play overseas tests in lanka later this year and in pak( UAE) early next year......so we will see then

Hopefully by then, perhaps Akshar can make the step up, Kuldeep can evolve, and some fresh talent can emerge. Because at the moment, beyond those 2 Akshar and Kuldeep, and perhaps Parwez Rasool or at a stretch Shreyas Gopal as an all-round package, we don't have much in reserve.

Axar has comfortably outbowled Jadeja whenever the two have played together in ODIs. If he has a good WC (I know its a different format) he should get a home gig.


BTW msp, given your unconditional.support for home bullies like Ashwin and Jadeja, even though both are hopeless overseas, going by your logic, we should persist with Rohit too? He is good at home too.

We should persist with Sharma if there are no alternatives. But there are alternatives with far more credible cases than nonexistent spin prospects who have to be picked on potential, or the style of their bowling in Karn Sharma's case.
And for Rohit Sharma, he has failed consistently in ODIs for 8 years with some success in between. Doesn't mean he's been an unqualified success in home conditions. He's been by and large hopeless everywhere he played with a few good performances thrown in now and then. He got 4 tests in SA and NZ before being dropped, then came back and failed in England and Australia. So the comparison just doesn't hold.......

Jadeja performed in South Africa and played his part in India's latest overseas win. Ashwin was India's best bowler in the Australia series though that doesn't say a great deal. So again, they are unlike Rohit who has been just hopeless as always.......

Akshar has played just 9 ODIs so far. He hasn't bowled a lot with Jadeja to make any valid comparisons. He's yet to play an ODI outside the subcontinent. Jadeja has been India's best ODI bowler for more than a year now. I just can't understand this urge to put him down and denigrate his achievements.

Rohit averages 67 in ODIs at home and 288 in Tests ( only 2 Tests, I know). If home performances is all that you are looking for, you may as well stick with Rohit, considering that you seem quite content with mediocrity overseas.

here is a good article on spinners......Shreyas Gopal indeed looks promising......in the mould of Kumble.

when we got walloped in Aus and Eng the clamour was for "sporting pitches" and they are getting sporting pitches in Ranji now.......and I dunno if we can directly attribute the arrival of technically better batsmen to pace and seam to "sporting pitches"

as a reaction the clamor has started in the name of "pitches are killing spin"

Ranji Trophy 2014-15

Offspin, legspin, tailspin
Spinners in the Ranji Trophy are bowling less and taking far fewer wickets than they used to, and this could have troubling consequences in the long term
Karthik Krishnaswamy
January 12, 2015
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Harbhajan Singh has picked up two wickets this season at an average of 74.50 © AFP
Some 20 or so faces were pressed to the main gate of the KSCA Stadium in Hubli. All peered at the Karnataka bus, which was slowly filling up at the end of day two of the team's Ranji Trophy game against Jammu & Kashmir. The crowd at the gate recognised everyone, and called out their names. When Shreyas Gopal carried his kitbag up the bus steps, a chant went up.

"Junior Kumble! Junior Kumble!"

It's a massive comparison for someone who is only playing his second season of first-class cricket, but at surface level, there's something to it. Shreyas finishes his action in a manner vaguely reminiscent of Anil Kumble, plays for the same state side, and has picked up his first 38 wickets at an average of 18.10. When Kumble was first selected for India, he had played one season of first-class cricket, in which he had taken 24 wickets at 19.62.

Dig a few inches below the surface, however, and it becomes clear that Shreyas and Kumble are entirely different kinds of cricketer.

In his debut first-class season of 1989-90, Kumble bowled 196.4 overs in five matches, or close to 40 overs per match. Shreyas, so far, has bowled 183.5 overs in 11 first-class matches, or a little under 17 overs per match. He has barely had an opportunity to bowl extended spells or set up dismissals.

His wickets, instead, have come in clumps. Where Kumble needed to bowl 48 overs to claim his maiden five-wicket haul, Shreyas only needed 16, against Uttar Pradesh in last season's Ranji Trophy quarter-finals. His second five-for was even quicker: 9.5 overs, in the Irani Cup match against Rest of India, where his last three wickets came in a hat-trick.

This season, Shreyas has picked up six wickets at an average of 19.50, but he's only bowled 37.1 overs in seven innings. There's plenty to like about Shreyas' bowling. He seems to give it a rip, and he doesn't seem to bowl too many bad balls, but he has had little chance of showing whether he can sustain his bite and accuracy over a long spell.

It's hardly a unique situation. The role of spinners in the Ranji Trophy has shrunk significantly over the last ten seasons. They bowled 47% of the overs delivered and picked up 42% of the wickets taken in the 2005-06 season. Since then, both those numbers have undergone a steady decrease. This season, both those numbers have hit bottom for the decade: an overs share of 36% and a wickets share of 32%.


The influence of spinners has waned over the last decade of the Ranji Trophy © ESPNcricinfo Ltd
According to Murali Kartik, the former India and Railways left-arm spinner, the primary reason for the waning influence of spin is the pitches.

"Since 2011, when we had that 8-0 drubbing in Australia and England, there's been this diktat of a minimum of 4mm [of grass]. Or at least people say there's been no diktat from BCCI but if that's the case why would every ground leave a minimum of 4mm? In that process, obviously in the first two innings the spinner doesn't come into play.

The use of the heavy roller negates any wear and tear, Kartik adds, and rules out any assistance for spinners even on days three and four.

"The spinner is not coming into play even on the fourth day. It's because of this minimum 4mm, and then people use the heavy roller. By the last day there's nothing left for anybody, there are no spike marks, so where will the spinner come into play? Without natural wear and tear it just becomes a flat wicket, come day three, day four, with all the heavy rollers being used. It nullifies the effect of the grass. It just becomes well rolled-out grass."

He goes back to the 2012-13 season to provide an example, from Railways' home game against Gujarat in Bhubaneswar.

"I won the toss. We blew them away for [117]. We used the heavy roller, obviously, because it's allowed to be used, because we don't want to face the same green track, no? So we get [308]. They again used the heavy roller, at whatever time. The effect of the grass is still there, it's still functioning, because obviously the game is moving fast.

"We get them six down, and then seven down, actually. Then [Manpreet Juneja] and [Rush Kalaria] get [hundreds]. Why? Because it's like mosaic right now. The ball isn't swinging, the ball isn't spinning, anybody could bat on it. It's live grass on day one, then it just gets rolled and rolled and rolled, so it's just a beautiful even sheen on the surface."

This season, the statistics support Kartik's argument. Spinners have picked up 350 wickets in the first and second innings at an average of 34.65. In the third and fourth innings, when they are traditionally expected to perform better, they have taken 164 wickets at 37.51. Spinners, with no real window in which to come into play, have become marginal figures.

"Last season, as a captain I bowled [71] overs in [seven] games," Kartik says. "Itna kam to maine England mein bhi nahin daala jahaan pe hara rehta hai [I've never bowled so few overs even in England, where the pitches are green].

"Rahul Dravid pointed out recently that Shreyas Gopal has bowled [37.1] overs in four games. Why? Because everywhere they are saying green wicket, green wicket. You pack your team with three seamers, and every team has got the likes of [seam-bowling allrounder] Stuart Binny or somebody, then obviously you won't be bowling.

"And the SG Test [ball] starts [reverse] swinging around the 30th over, so they come into play again. So the spinner just gets to do a holding job where they are bowling for five-seven overs, ten overs, and then thank you, see you later, come back again. It's just a holding job, ki run mat dena, thodi der daal lo [Don't give runs, bowl for a little while]. Everywhere the same thing is happening."

Aakash Chopra, the former Delhi, Rajasthan and Himachal Pradesh opener, says the SG ball, while being a "wonderful ball for the spinners", also keeps seamers in the game right through a day's play.

"Seam bowlers tend to get swing right till the 80th over, and by that time the second new ball is dew," he says. "So if the seamers stay relevant, there is this temptation to have a seamer bowling from one end, and possibly from both ends, as long as it's possible. But at the same time the SG ball is conducive to spin bowling also, because of its pronounced seam, and if it's shining and it's swinging it's also going to drift if you deliver it properly.

"But that drift has gone out of the game completely. Nobody is even trying to do that. What's happened is, teams are inclined to go towards seam-bowling options, because the ball is conducive to swing bowling till the 80th over, and then, of course, you have the pitches, and why would you not have that? If seamers are your stronger suit, you will make sure they are relevant till the 80th, even the 90th over, they are there the whole day. If your spinners are just going to do a containing job then good luck to you, what can be done? Then you'll have to bat well to make sure you stay in the team."

Whether it's out of necessity or it's just a coincidence, Indian cricket has seen a spurt of spin-bowling allrounders. Shreyas is an example of this trend. He was a batting allrounder through the junior levels, but has mostly batted at No. 8 or No. 9 during his first-class career. After a slow start, he's done very well in those positions - he has made scores of 145, 18 and 58* in his last three first-class innings.

Shreyas, in short, is an allrounder playing as a bowler who doesn't really bowl that much. The fact that he has picked up wickets whenever he has been called upon is probably a bit of a bonus for Karnataka.

In that match in Hubli, the J&K side included only one spinner, Parvez Rasool, who batted at number five and bowled nine wicketless overs in a Karnataka innings that lasted 103 overs. Given the greenness of the surface, J&K played a fourth fast bowler. Given the value Rasool provides with the bat - and given the fact that he captains them - they left out the left-arm spinner Waseem Raza, who had picked up 11 wickets at 27.27 till then. Rasool had picked up six wickets at 58.66.

In his first-class career, Rasool averages 34.62 with the ball and 38.45 with the bat. Those are pretty good returns for a batting allrounder at No. 5 or 6. He fulfils that role while playing for his state side, but his place in the India side or on its fringes has generally been that of a specialist offspinner. When he picked up 7 for 45 for the Board President's XI against the Australians in 2013, he batted at No. 8.



Spinners bowled 47% of the overs delivered and picked up 42% of the wickets taken in the 2005-06 season. Since then, both those numbers have undergone a steady decrease. This season, both those numbers have hit bottom for the decade: an overs share of 36% and a wickets share of 32%

In the next tour game, Jalaj Saxena picked up five wickets for India A. Saxena is a batting allrounder who usually opens the batting for Madhya Pradesh - he averages 36.82 with the bat in first-class cricket and 34.61 with the ball - but in that game against the Australians, he batted at No. 7. Like Rasool in the previous game, he was a batting allrounder picked more for his bowling.

Since Amit Mishra and Pragyan Ojha - who made their debuts in 2008 and 2009 respectively - India have given Test caps to three other spinners. All three can bat. Not all three were picked for that reason, of course, but it's still interesting to note that R Ashwin averages 35.68 with the bat in first-class cricket, Ravindra Jadeja 46.44, and Karn Sharma 25.46. All three were in the Test squad in Australia, and when India lost Jadeja to injury, they flew in a like-for-like replacement in Akshar Patel, with a first-class batting average of 42.25.

Why does it seem to have become imperative that spinners bat?

"Depends on how good a spinner you are," says Amol Muzumdar, the former Mumbai, Assam and Andhra batsman. "When I talk about a spinner, you have to be really confident about spinning the ball. None of the guys I've seen have really been spinners. They've just been rollers, coming in and putting it on a spot, just for the captain to maybe tie one end down or tie things down, and give a little breather to his fast bowlers, which was really unthinkable probably 10-15 years back. There used to be seam bowlers who used to do that job, giving a break to the spinners. It's become completely the reverse."

Chopra argues that the lack of quality of spinners has caused the proliferation of green pitches.

"What came first is something that needs to be deciphered," he says. "A lot of people will tell you [about] this 4mm grass being a norm, and you can't take wickets on these greenish pitches, but I don't think it's the only reason. It's a result of inferior quality of spinners around and hence teams are now opting for seamer-friendly pitches.

"For example at Rajasthan we would happily play on greentops and play four fast bowlers, because the spinner that we had in the side was not even good enough to plug the flow of runs, let alone take wickets. Same was the case with Delhi. When I was there for 10-12 years we would happily go to Roshanara and not play at [Feroz Shah] Kotla because Roshanara provided the greentop for us. Punjab is the same case once again.

"In Himachal Pradesh, I didn't have enough spinners in my team to prepare a turner. You talk about Delhi, you talk about Rajasthan, you talk about Himachal Pradesh, you talk about Punjab, you talk about Madhya Pradesh. Add Bengal to it. I can't see a decent spinner in Bengal. And there are enough states whom I don't know yet. So there aren't enough good spinners available. So what do you expect?"

Both Kartik and Chopra suggest that Twenty20 cricket could be a reason for spinners losing their sting.

"You look at all the old bowlers, they were used to bowling long spells," Kartik says. "You learn your craft on good wickets, you learn your craft against good batsmen by bowling long spells, and you also practice that way. The more you bowl, that's the way you become. It is not T20 games where you have to bowl one over and another one over and another one over where a consistent length is supposed to be really bad. You can't allow a batsman to line you up. That can't happen in first-class cricket, no? If I bowl five different lengths the batsman is going to hurt me.

"Any kid you go to, everywhere in schools cricket, what are they playing? It's T20 cricket. All the old players including myself - not that I'm old - have been brought up on schools cricket which was two days, three days. I was brought up on league cricket in Madras which was three days against the best of opposition so you had to prise them out, you had to bowl well. And there was not just one game, you had to play 16 games. Which meant you were getting quality practice against the best."

Chopra says he doesn't see spinners beating batsmen in the air anymore. This, he says, could be because of habits carried over from Twenty20 cricket.

"In T20 cricket, spinners are challenged, they are pushed," he says. "Unless you have already matured and know your game inside-out, there is a good chance, the moment you get in the shorter format, that you'll start bowling flatter, you bowl straighter, you compromise on spin.

"If I hit you as a batsman, the bowler's first reaction is to bowl fast and get away. But spinners at times have to bowl slow. But that variation comes to your mind only if you are a complete bowler already. A Daniel Vettori will not start bowling darts. But a young left-arm spinner, the moment he's hit, he says okay, lets start bowling darts.

"It's nobody's fault, I'm not blaming the format, but the dynamics are such that spinners are challenged, and if spinners are challenged they will have to find a way to stay relevant and the easiest way is to lower the trajectory and bowl fast. And compromise on spin because you need more accuracy. So that is your natural tendency, and that needs to be addressed, because young spinners don't really know about spinning the ball and beating the batsman in the air."

Sairaj Bahutule, the former Mumbai and Maharashtra legspinner, says spinners find it difficult to adjust between formats.

"In Twenty20, I've seen bowlers of international repute bowling just short of a length, not a good length, which it demands, but when the format changes, you bowl the same length," he says. "[Maybe] we [can] make a pool of spinners only for Ranji Trophy and Test matches, and some allrounders who can do a job for T20 and one-dayers."

Muzumdar doesn't think Twenty20 is that much of a factor in young spinners developing the way they are.

"Again it all boils down to the quality of that man," he says. "If that guy has immense quality, he would be useful in Twenty20, one-day cricket, and Test match cricket. It's easier to say Twenty20 cricket has spoiled that. If you have a spinner who rips it in the air, he would be the most sought-after player in the IPL auction, I can guarantee that. If that boy spins the ball like a top.

"You have to go really deep into it. You have to work on the psyche of a spinner right from Under-16. Under-19 or Under-23, they are already finished products. The raw material is the Under-14s and the Under-16s. Not many play IPL or Twenty20 at that age. If the raw material is bad, then the finished product will be bad. If they put revolutions on the ball, I'll be on my guard in my crease. But if that ball has no revolutions, I know this guy will go for plenty. If he cannot beat me in the air, off the surface, I know I'll take him for a ride for six hours."

Chopra says a good spinner should be able to take wickets anywhere.

"If you are not beating batsmen in the air, if you are not turning it off the wicket, why should I prepare pitches where you are going to get wickets? Rank turners, you'll get a bagful of wickets, but that is not a true reflection of who you are."

This is precisely what makes it hard to assess the merits of the spinners who have been taking wickets this season.

Of the ten highest wicket-takers among spinners this season, three - Malolan Rangarajan, Aushik Srinivas and Rahil Shah - play for Tamil Nadu. All three were part of their bowling attack in their three home games, in which the quicks barely played a part. L Balaji played the first two games, and bowled a total of 24 overs. In the third, against Railways in Chennai, Tamil Nadu didn't select a single specialist seamer.

In those three home games, the three spinners combined to pick up 42 wickets at an average of 21.21. In the two away games, Malolan and Aushik - playing as the lone spinner against Karnataka and Bengal respectively - took a total of five wickets at 49.80. How is a selector supposed to judge their performances?

Baroda's Swapnil Singh is the highest wicket-taker among spinners this season, but bowled only four overs across two innings in seam-friendly conditions in Gwalior, where Baroda made Madhya Pradesh follow on. Delhi's Varun Sood picked up 10 wickets in the match against Gujarat at the Feroz Shah Kotla, but only got to bowl 6.2 overs in his next game, against Haryana in Lahli, where he picked up three tail-end wickets.

The established names, meanwhile, have struggled for various reasons. Harbhajan Singh has two wickets this season at 74.50. Piyush Chawla has been almost as poor, with seven wickets at 49.00. Mishra, playing for a Haryana side that plays its matches on the greenest pitch in India, has bowled 42.1 overs in four innings. Ojha has been banned from bowling.

Spinners with bagfuls of wickets in recent seasons have also struggled to maintain their consistency. Vishal Dabholkar, who took 39 wickets for Mumbai last season, was dropped for their last three matches. Shahbaz Nadeem, who took 42 wickets for Jharkhand in 2012-13, has picked up 13 wickets at 21.15 this season, but has done this against Group C opposition. KP Appanna, who took 28 wickets in the Elite tier in 2011-12, hasn't played all season for Karnataka. Bharghav Bhatt, who took 47 wickets with his left-arm orthodox in 2010-11, has played only one game for Baroda.

The pool of spinners in Indian domestic cricket, then, is both shallow and murky, filled with good bowlers who are barely getting a bowl, average bowlers who are getting by on their batting, and a collection of established but fading names.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhwReAJ0jp8

and I couldn't but help looking up videos of his action....he does reminisce Kumble in action...but is slower and has some flight......and a pretty deceptive googly ( using whihc he took a hattrick in Irani)

this season...no spinner has done well at all for reasons explained in the article.

Gopal is worth a break in the national side IMO

KPF, I don't think what we have had in most Ranji games are sporting wickets. They help 120 KPH medium pacers for some time, and turn into flat roads in most cases. The spinners do not have much role. Yet we don't produce seamers of quality, we continue to produce average medium pacers. A Shikhar Dhawan who has had sustained domestic experience still struggles with his technique against decent seam bowling. And we just don't produce attacking, consistent spinners. So these pitches help nobody, not the batsman, not the seamer, not the spinner, not Indian cricket.
There should be more emphasis on outright wins, a first innings lead should not get more than 2 points, an outright win should at least get a side 5 additional points. At least 7 for a win, and not more than 2 for a draw. That would mean they'll have to produce pitches where the spinner will have a meaningful role on day 4 at least.
Our cricket is built around spinning traditions, we should not give up on it in the name of overseas success. We aren't winning overseas anyways with these useless pitches, and these days our batsmen are vulnerable against ordinary spinners like Shillingford, Lyon and the likes, where as the likes of Warne and Murali had viewed Indian batsmen as the greatest challenge.......

Coming back to this last series for a moment.

The grand irony is that due to the previous two tours ending up in whitewashes, someone has decided to take the juice and bounce out of our traditional pitches and produce a more level playing field. Everyone kept saying things like "this SCG pitch is as close as you'll get to Indian conditions..." (except the current conditions of wickets in India described in KP_f's above excerpt make that comment sound partially obsolete now)

Maybe a deal was done: You guys in Australia dumb your wickets down a little... and we'll try and grow some grass on ours and make them hold together better when you next tour! Someone's playing with our minds guys!

In truth, I believe they went a touch too far (say by a couple of crucial wickets, lol) and needed to get them back to somewhere in between last season and this season. A little more nurture (not doctored) and slightly less nature would have been perfect! Or is it the other way round?

Whilst it might be ego-boosting to thrash teams as Australia did in 2012-13 and 2013-14 it does not do any good for the game really. Who wants to shell out good money for no contests? Had this exact discussion last week at the ground with an old mate of mine. All my other cricketing pals can't even be bothered to go out to the ground any more. (most had "family excuses", etc...) Fair enough.  

However, this last series was a bit of a roll of the dice I feel. It dangled the carrot in front of the Indian batsmen but also helped the Australian batsmen crank their ave. runs/innings stat (see my above post) upwards by almost exactly 100 runs! In my view, this could have been a very dangerous outcome for us if: the Indian bowlers had bowled a lot better and the Aussie batsmen had batted a little bit worse.

As it was, and as KP_f keeps saying, a relatively poorer Indian bowling attack had more trouble getting Australia out. Fielding didn't help both sides either. Australia had to declare every innings except for both innings in Brisbane (the most sporting wicket this tour) and the first at the MCG - in order to try and force a result. Only one team held the upper hand throughout and made all the running and risked the most. That's probably why I enjoyed this series in a sporting sense. Still, it was a very hard grind for both sides and that was what was appealing in my opinion.

Let's just hope both teams can now rest and recover in the few days before the ODIs commence. Just a gut feeling... but there's been record rain in Melbourne... floods in Adelaide, Brisbane gets more rain than those last 2 cities combined (esp. this time of year) and it can really bucket down here in Sydney too this time of year. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see a dramatic change in conditions on the field (anyone seen the low scores in the BB?).

Thought I'd give everyone the heads up: expect some fireworks in the tri-series but even more towards late February. The curators should have their hands full. It's all in the lap of the Gods though isn't it?

msp83 wrote:KPF, I don't think what we have had in most Ranji games are sporting wickets. They help 120 KPH medium pacers for some time, and turn into flat roads in most cases. The spinners do not have much role. Yet we don't produce seamers of quality, we continue to produce average medium pacers. A Shikhar Dhawan who has had sustained domestic experience still struggles with his technique against decent seam bowling. And we just don't produce attacking, consistent spinners. So these pitches help nobody, not the batsman, not the seamer, not the spinner, not Indian cricket.
There should be more emphasis on outright wins, a first innings lead should not get more than 2 points, an outright win should at least get a side 5 additional points. At least 7 for a win, and not more than 2 for a draw. That would mean they'll have to produce pitches where the spinner will have a meaningful role on day 4 at least.
Our cricket is built around spinning traditions, we should not give up on it in the name of overseas success. We aren't winning overseas anyways with these useless pitches, and these days our batsmen are vulnerable against ordinary spinners like Shillingford, Lyon and the likes, where as the likes of Warne and Murali had viewed Indian batsmen as the greatest challenge.......

this sporting "leave the grass at least 4inch" started this season

Oh, and England... the ball is in your court now for next summer.
Let's see what your grounds-people can produce, yah?

Not sure about the grass nonsense starting this year, its been there for the last couple of seasons, after the previous Australia tour....... These December-January games do not help much either, with the winter conditions providing additional nip to 120 KPH swingers and seamers.......

Of all the pitches in the series, I liked the one for the 2nd test the most. The only drawback was that there wasn't anything for the spinner on that ttrack. But good batsmen and good pacers could do well over there. Adelaide and Sydney came to life at least towards the final day and weren't total roads.
Always like it when the bowler has a greater role than waiting for declaration, and absolutely love it when Indian tracks start turning from day one.......