Review/Discussion of the state of the England team

First topic message reminder :

Just a quick review/discussion on the status of the England team.  Not necessarily a complete analysis but I sure others will fill in the missing gaps and provide their own views.

England were very disappointing and stalled during the Autumn Internationals. Without a dominance scrum they could very easy have lost to Australia.

FORWARDS:

Generally went well, but England should not complacent as next up is Wales away at the MS, where they were bullied last time.

If Corbisiero and Cole can regain form and fitness, England will be strong at prop.  Brookes quietly improving with some younger guys waiting in the wings.

Hooker seems to be a weak area though, Webber did not look wonderful over the week-end.  Hartley a bit undisciplined.

Quite a good groups of locks, but I would still prefer an Attwood or Slater type.  Occasionally Lawes and Launchbury look a little light-weight.  Also though competition is very tight, I would like to have seen how Kitchener would fare.

Backrow is a point of discussion and debate.  The number eights look good with Vunipola coming back to form and future options in Ewers and others (Hughes?).  I think Robshaw almost always plays well but I would not mind seeing Garvey at blindside, to do the tight stuff and allow the other back five forwards to excel in the loose.


BACKS:

Not totally bleak but how to get them playing?

Fullback seems set with Brown and I wonder if Watson should be seen as his successor.

Scrum-half is fairly well served by Youngs and Care if he can recover his form.  Also Simpson can look a good player?

Fly-half is well stocked with Ford, Farrell, Myler and Cips.  Indeed at the week-end I thought Myler had a great game.

At wing there are lots of options in May, Watson, Rokoduguni, Nowell, Wade, Yarde and Benjamin has come on a bit as well. I would love to see Wade get a go sometime.

Centre has been a problem which is annoying has there seems to be talent available.  Tuilagi, Burrell, Eastmond, Joseph, Barritt, Slade, Twelvestrees, etc. all seem good players

So if everyone was fit and on Form, I would go with: -

Corbisiero
Hartley
Cole
Attwood
Launchbury
Garvey
Robshaw
Morgan

Youngs
Ford
Watson
Burrell
Tuilagi
May
Brown

Would definitely have Lawes on the bench in case the line went belly-up. Have not yet found room for Wade but would have Eastmond on the bench.  However in most positions there is a lot of competition, so sometimes the choice could go either way.
Perhaps England’s real weakness is having several good players (with the sum being better than the parts), but with very few world class options.

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Twelvetrees issues will hold him back....I know it was only one example but that 1 on 1 he butchered for Glos the other week just summed him up.

I have issues with the way that incident has been interpreted. To me it was pretty obvious Twelvetrees had no idea the player who tackled him was there. He thought if he beat the last man, which he did, then he was strolling under the posts and he took responsibility to do that. That wasn't poor decision making, it was a lack of awareness of what was going on behind him in a fast moving situation.

Occasionally he throws a pass he should probably hold onto, but as has been pointed out all of the IC centre options have some drawback or other (I still think Devoto might be the 2019 answer, or possibly Sam Hill if he can develop a kicking game).

Dave

It boils down to the same thing...he made the wrong decision, and showed a lack of awareness.

You could accept a one off...but this is something he does regularly. I gave him the benefit of the doubt many a time...but im past that now, and simply wouldn't select him.

I want a 12 who can play a bit HOWEVER Id rather a rock solid consistent performer like Barritt over Twelvetrees.
Anthony Allen would be a better option.

What are peoples general thinking for who Lancaster is going to pick in the centre in comparison to what they would then?

I think Lancaster is going to go for Eastmond and Burrell.
Think my choice would be Burrell and Joseph at the moment. Really looking forward to the Bath Glasgow game and think it may nudge Lancs in a particular direction.

I reckon he's going to go Barritt Burrell, I too would go with Burrell and Joseph, wouldn't be adverse to Barritt and Joseph or Eastmond and Burrell.

I'm probably too risk averse to be willing to play Eastmond and Joseph, no matter how exciting it could be

Yeah there's 2 I wouldn't like to see for opposite reasons. Barritt and Burrell, not enough subtlety: Eastmond and Joseph bit of a soft centre.

I have not read every post on this thread sorry

two points
All the possible candidates for england centres seem to have been tried and none really grabbed their chance. It seems the choice is either attacking creative players that lancaster does not trust in defense or defensive rocks with little ability to create attacking chances. Its a real conundrum. Can Barrit and Joseph both play? Joseph is the english centre that has impressed me most in the club games I have seen. He really seems to have the ability to break defenses.

Easter - how do the england fans see his inclusion? For me he is one of those guys who is a great club player but barely adequate in the international game. You can have all the skills in the world - and he is a skilled player no doubt but it you are too slow to get the breakdown you do nothing.

All about balance in both respects TJ. The best player in the world can look awful if the players around him don't compliment.

TJ
Why couldn't you play
10 Ford
12 Barritt
13 Joseph

A brick wall surrounded by skill. And Barritt shores up the 10 channel with Ford there. Plus Barritt actually can pass the ball this part of his game is put down a little too much.

Geordie - thats the sort of question I was asking. Seems like that would be a good mix. maybe Barrit at 12 in defense and 13 in attack?

I would have no problem at all with that midfield taking the field.

The four obvious centres are Barritt, Burrell, Eastmond and Joseph.  Barritt and Burrell would be the most defence minded combination and Eastmond and Joseph the most attack minded.   All are good centres with different attributes. Switching these around would create a more mixed combination (more balanced between attack and defence).

So it is really a choice of what type of game should be played.  I would probably choose Burrell with either Eastmond or Joseph. It would also be possible to have one of the four on the bench, to enable the approach to change during a game.

Let's not discount form - let's see how all the contenders do this weekend.

All to play for. All 4 have important roles.

Given injury problems elsewhere its actually a relief to be debating about 4 guys playing so well.

Cb

Or we could include Slade if he plays well for the Saxons. He can attack AND defend. Wow imagine that a centre who can do both things well....

I was looking at Austin Healey's preferred starting XV for the Wales game. He has Watson, Wade, Eastmond and Joseph in his team and it occurred to me that the England set-up now has quite a few players of colour contending for positions.

That's always been the case in football, and rugby league has a long tradition of developing talent, but rugby union and cricket were much slower. Cricket, in particular, has gone backwards as the Caribbean connection dried up.

In union, we did have people like Ubogu, Ojomoh and Harriman, while Robinson came over from league and became one of our biggest stars.

I was going to start a thread on the subject but race can be a sensitive topic and I don't want to get the tone wrong. However, and I'm sorry if this seems like a crass exercise, I was wondering how close we could be to selecting a non-white England rugby team with players who warrant international selection. It gets a bit easier if you include Pacific Islanders background, because you can add Tuilagi, the Vunipola brothers, Roko, and possibly Nathan Hughes to the mix.

Leaving them to one side for a moment, off the top of my head, we've got

Kyle Sinckler
Courtney Lawes
Maro Itoje
Steffon Armitage

Danny Cipriani (not always remembered his dad is black)
Luther Burrell
Kyle Eastmond
Jonathan Joseph
Christian Wade
Marland Yarde
Ugo Monye
Miles Benjamin
Tom Varndell
Delon Armitage
Anthony Watson
Mike Brown  

I'm sure I've forgotten a few forwards, or maybe we just don't attract resources like Serge Betsen back in the day or Dusautoir today. Or even Colin Charvis of Wales. We aren't far off, though, although I can't think of a hooker or scrum half.

Who knows whether this is just statistical clustering: our U20 squad is still pretty white but it's interesting to see.

Apologies for taking the thread off piste.

I guess it is fairly well known that one of Mike Brown's ancestors had red skin (Mr. Angry)..

I think it helps to prove that, at this level, skin colour is as it should be, an irrelevance.

the purebred scots come in two colours - blue in the winter and red in the summer

serious answer - I think rugby in England is fairly colour blind.

Rugby Fan

The racial mix of England's team is an interesting topic. I recall England often have more "players of African origin" than South Africa.

But RugbyFan - make it a separate topic. In this thread I want to read about how we think the England will perform

Alex_Germany wrote:The racial mix of England's team is an interesting topic. I recall England often have more "players of African origin" than South Africa.

But RugbyFan - make it a separate topic. In this thread I want to read about how we think the England will perform

Maybe, but given that most of them are mixed race somewhere along the line they can get claimed by whatever side wants to make a point. Hence irrelevant. Might as well choose a team with only blue eyes, or left handers

You know this race thing annoys me...like Sol Campbell keeps playing the race card.about lack of black managers etc etc

I don't care if people are red, white, green, blue , polka dot pink, short, tall, fat, skinny, midget, dwarf, gay ,lesbian, Martian, Saturnian, or Welsh.

If people are good enough they'll play...if they're not....they wont! Also many cultures don't like competitive sports so don't allow participation.

Amen.

Campbell is right tho. Considering the numbers of black players there are very few black managers.

lostinwales wrote:Given injury problems elsewhere its actually a relief to be debating about 4 guys [The four centres] playing so well.

And add in Tuilagi, Burgess and Slade ..... England have a surfeit of "European-Class" centres for the first time since 2003. Now if one or two could progress to "World-Class" status, that would be nice.

TJ wrote:Campbell is right tho.  Considering the numbers of black players there are very few black managers.

There's always a lag, though, because managerial tenures are long (how long was Geech a top coach for?) and only a small proportion of players make the transition into management. At a guess, around 40-50 players retire each year and maybe 1 or 2 of them will go into management.

If they're around 10% of players, and around 3% of players go into management, we'd expect them to make up about 0.3% of managers. If a typical setup has 6 coaches and there are, say, 15 teams in England with a full coaching setup (to allow for Worcs, Bristol etc), then we'd expect about one-quarter of a coach.

Quins have Collin Osborne, who I'd regard as more than one-quarter....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Dave

It boils down to the same thing...he made the wrong decision, and showed a lack of awareness.

You could accept a one off...but this is something he does regularly. I gave him the benefit of the doubt many a time...but im past that now, and simply wouldn't select him.

I want a 12 who can play a bit HOWEVER Id rather a rock solid consistent performer like Barritt over Twelvetrees.
Anthony Allen would be a better option.

He made a mistake, but it wasn't a decision-making error in this case despite a few people were claiming it was.

Personally I find Barritt for England slightly depressing. I think we should be aspiring to more rounded centres than he is. As far as I can see SL is only considering him as a 13, and JJ is a far better OC than him. Burrell at 12 isn't the second distributor SL has always been clear he wants. He was ignored in the AI's, hit a purple patch for Saints shortly after, but his form has dropped off a bit from what I've seen in the last few weeks. I don't really see the point of asking Burrell and Barritt to run at 2 giant Welsh centres for 60 minutes. Frankly Wales have more practice of playing that way and we have one of Europe's in-form centres in JJ.

Bath's performance at Toulouse, with 8 of the 10 backs they used being English, was one of the best I've seen from an English club side. I'd be happy to give Eastmond and Joseph a run out together as a result.

Having said all that, my current guess for the starting centres is Twelvetrees and Barritt, with JJ on the bench.

I will be incredibly disappointed if it is Twelvetrees and Barrett!

That's d backwards step in my opinion and a kick in the teeth for the players who are on form at the moment.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

TJ wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

TJ wrote:
............Hartley is a weak point.  He has now proven that he cannot change his lack of self control so that must be the end of his international career.  All teams will know what he is like and he will be targeted to make him lose his temper and get sent off.  At least a year in the AP without a single card before he is considered again..................

Yes he has his moments....but Lancaster isn't going to drop Englands best hooker by a country mile (and one of the worlds best).
Id be curious to know what his actual disciplinary record is like for England. I bet its not actually that bad.

Is he really that good?  He will cost England a game at some point with his indiscipline.  Its not just the cards, its also the penalties and the fact when the red mist descends no one plays as well.  Martin Johnson s temper was his main weakness .  tems were able to wind him up until he lost the plot and did so regularly.  However MJ recognised this weakness in his game and by the WC win had changed his behaviour so this weakness was no longer evident and it improved him as a player.  Perhaps he could mentor Hartley?

He'll cost a game at some point?
Well hes been playing at international level for a long time now and I honestly don't think he has yet...and if its purely a one off...then the same can be labelled at any player?? Not much of an argument TJ??

When has the red mist come down in an England shirt? A silly stamp in the AI's which I accept was idiotic...but those incidents are few and far between and I can name a few others at the level who have had their moments or stupidity.

As for is he a good hooker. Yes. His lineout is top class. His scrimmaging is very good, his work rate and tackling rucking etc is right up there with the best.
The only thing that annoys me about him is his carrying...which isn't good enough.

The problem with Hartley is that he's just universally disliked with no basis on any actual facts....in an England shirt.

Interestingly the bbc are reporting that Hartley is getting professional help to see if he can curb his temper. Good on him for recognising the issue, trying to do something about it and letting it be known publicly http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30955529

corbeiseiro having a blinder against ducalcon in the first half vs RCM. great great news for England. as long as he doesnt pick up an injury!!!

burrell just missed such a bad tackle, with farrell and rowntree watching, that i dont think he will be starting on feb 6th...

Wood limped off, Hartley was poor.

saints really missed Lawes. and i think england will too. especially with launchbury out. and wood is just too lightweight in the tackle and carry to make up for it.

haskell has to start.

and we desperately need eastmond at 13. reckon it will be barritt at 12 to tackle Roberts all day long. but we need creative options at 10 or 13 or wales are going to blitz and block the wide pass all day long.

Parling off after only three minutes against Ulster. I think Marler went off with something as well in the Quins game.

Burrell played himself out of the England team today as did Hartley. Burrell's defence was village today. Hartley just looked plain ordinary. Both just didn't look up for it.

England must play Barritt,t he is the only player that has real stopping power in the mid field. Eastmond or JJ with him but please not Twelvetrees. Twelvetrees is another Balshaw or Banahan, very iffy at the best of times and too liable to make try giving mistakes.

As I've said before Webber offers much more than Hartley. He tackles well and carries much more effectively.

SL has some very difficult selection decisions to make. I just hope and pray he goes with ability and form and not reputation.

Form would be Youngs not Webber.

Burrell played himself out of the England team today as did Hartley. Burrell's defence was village today. Hartley just looked plain ordinary. Both just didn't look up for it.

Yes i totaly agree with you. The Saints was very dissapointing today.

Not Many of the England players played any where good enough IMO.

I think England need Cipriani against Wales otherwise it could be a very long day at the office, the pack is so up in the air at the moment and they also really need the likes of Haskell. I just don't see England's pack dominating the Welsh which IMO they would need to achieve to win. As for the backs, England have huge talent but in terms of a unit and familiarity again there is so much uncertainty as to who is the best option and what combinations make the best side. My money is on Wales at home but we could equally implode. The boot will be on the other foot come RWC but this is a crucial pre RWC game for both sides and whoever wins stands a great chance of a 6 Nations win.

Gwlad, you are welcome to your opinion but id say there's a lot of false assumption in there...

Lancaster on the last trip to Cardiff

“I think we will be better prepared this time round. The context was very different last time. We were going into it having played on the Sunday. Wales had played on the Saturday,” he said.

“From my understanding of it they had a really hard intense (training) session on the Tuesday. We didn’t train really. We were patching up bodies, we had the day off Wednesday, we arrived on the Thursday.

“We also had in the back of our minds the seven-point differential – we could still have won the championship if we had lost by fewer than seven and I think psychologically that had an effect on the players.

“As that score-line went from 12-3 to 17-3 they saw not only a Grand Slam slipping away but a championship.”

ChequeredJersey wrote:Gwlad, you are welcome to your opinion but id say there's a lot of false assumption in there...

Fair play it is just my opinion….all i can really say is the perception is of a very undecided side….i mean from 1-15 who are the stalwarts who own their shirt. Now i am happy to be corrected and of course Wales largely have the opposing problem although I am just finding out that one of our greatest stalwarts has just quit the game.

What in particular do you think is false assumption?

maestegmafia wrote:Lancaster on the last trip to Cardiff

“I think we will be better prepared this time round. The context was very different last time. We were going into it having played on the Sunday. Wales had played on the Saturday,” he said.

“From my understanding of it they had a really hard intense (training) session on the Tuesday. We didn’t train really. We were patching up bodies, we had the day off Wednesday, we arrived on the Thursday.

“We also had in the back of our minds the seven-point differential – we could still have won the championship if we had lost by fewer than seven and I think psychologically that had an effect on the players.

“As that score-line went from 12-3 to 17-3 they saw not only a Grand Slam slipping away but a championship.”

Just highlights real naivety in the coaching a few years back

It's doesn't augur well for our Six Nations chances when two of our top teams can't perform at home in Europe, coming so soon after Quins looked clueless in attack last week.

Quins just pumped Castre though...

To be honest I take nothing from club form, the English team is such a mixture if clubs that one or two will never have a massive input.

Still got Bath and Sarries to go too

Interesting mentioning Bathh and Sarries, as at lock it would now seem to be Attwood, Kruis with Kitchener on the bench.  Hope the first two keep injury free.

yappysnap wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Lancaster on the last trip to Cardiff

“I think we will be better prepared this time round. The context was very different last time. We were going into it having played on the Sunday. Wales had played on the Saturday,” he said.

“From my understanding of it they had a really hard intense (training) session on the Tuesday. We didn’t train really. We were patching up bodies, we had the day off Wednesday, we arrived on the Thursday.

“We also had in the back of our minds the seven-point differential – we could still have won the championship if we had lost by fewer than seven and I think psychologically that had an effect on the players.

“As that score-line went from 12-3 to 17-3 they saw not only a Grand Slam slipping away but a championship.”

Just highlights real naivety in the coaching a few years back    

Has that changed? Some of you guys were giving Lancaster and his mates a tough ride during and after the AIs.

https://www.606v2.com/t56410-enough-is-enough-bracken-tired-of-england-coach-lancaster-s-excuses?highlight=Stuart+lancaster

Rugby Fan wrote:It's doesn't augur well for our Six Nations chances when two of our top teams can't perform at home in Europe, coming so soon after Quins looked clueless in attack last week.

Ospreys got beat by Treviso. Ulster failed to qualify past the 1st round. As said its all a bit meaningless as regards the internationals but every nation is having a few hiccups with club form

So if Tom Wood and Geoff Parling are out (hopefully a big if) starting pack looks like this?

01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dave Wilson
04. Dave Attwood
05. George Kruis
06. James Haskell
07. Chris Robshaw
08. Billy Vunipola

The injury situations is frustrating but to be fair that is still a pretty good pack. Haskell is in great form at the moment and may add a little more power than Wood.

I think back to when we had injury lists like this in the pat and we'd be heading to Cardiff with players like Tim Payne, Lee Mears, Steve Borthwick, Andy Goode and Jamie Noon. I'd have given us no chance back then, now I reckon we've still got a very good chance.

Jamie Noon was a cracking player...just not quite good enough for that level....

lostinwales wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:It's doesn't augur well for our Six Nations chances when two of our top teams can't perform at home in Europe, coming so soon after Quins looked clueless in attack last week.

Ospreys got beat by Treviso. Ulster failed to qualify past the 1st round. As said its all a bit meaningless as regards the internationals but every nation is having a few hiccups with club  form

Based on club form, France have won the Grand Slam for the last three years, whilst Wales, Scotland and Italy all competed for the wooden spoon. France will thrash everyone this year. Based on club form.

Cumbrian wrote:So if Tom Wood and Geoff Parling are out (hopefully a big if) starting pack looks like this?

01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dave Wilson
04. Dave Attwood
05. George Kruis
06. James Haskell
07. Chris Robshaw
08. Billy Vunipola

The injury situations is frustrating but to be fair that is still a pretty good pack. Haskell is in great form at the moment and may add a little more power than Wood.  

I think back to  when we had injury lists like this in the pat and we'd be heading to Cardiff with players like Tim Payne, Lee Mears, Steve Borthwick, Andy Goode and Jamie Noon.  I'd have given us no chance back then, now I reckon we've still got a very good chance.

If Wood and Parling are out then that might bring Easter, a strong lineout forward, into realistic contention. If they're happy with Haskell/Robshaw as lineout options then it will still be Vunipola.

Wood appears to have only stained his ankle. He went off yesterday to allow a replacement hooker to come on whilst he had it tended to. When Hartley came back on, Wood came back with him but only played a few minutes of the 2nd half, before going off again.