Ulster 2014/2015, Part 3

by **Notch** Sun 11 Jan 2015, 2:58 pm

First topic message reminder :

Continue to discuss Ulsters lack of back row options and season in general

by MrsP Mon 09 Mar 2015, 11:35 am

clivemcl wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:Yup, the only tonic after that Ulster display would be for Ireland to blow Wales away.
The end of the season can't come quick enough if that's all we have to give.

But this is why it's such a strange emotional cocktail for us Ulster fans (and Munster and Leinster no doubt). We are almost disgusted by our performances and then we see the league table and can't figure out how we are supposed to feel!

Aren't we meant to be happy that we are joint second with still a fair likelihood of a top 4 finish?

What if we somehow managed to win a semi and then a final with wins similar to those against Scarlets and Edinburgh? We would be happy wouldn't we? Would we?

It comes down to the league really - any team could win the Pro12 this year only to get royally dumped out of the Champions Cup in the group stages. The pro12 title this season is so far off being a marker of class and ability it's a joke I'm sad to say.

But that could equally be said of the Top 14 or the Premiership.

Why has our league, which has produced many teams reaching the highest levels of European rugby in very recent years, suddenly become "a joke"?

Why was it not "a joke" when Ulster were playing well?

by SecretFly Mon 09 Mar 2015, 11:39 am

I don't know - I saw an epic contest of attack and defence at the weekend (Connacht v Cardiff).

The game started out so casual. I was saying to Notch that it's both so laidback and a lot of naivety been shown by both sides. (Typical criticism directed at Pro12) - then in the second half all hell broke loose and I was on the edge of my seat. Epic.

Don't be always giving the AP ammunition to hit us with. Stand up for your own product now and again. It's worth it now and again.

by SecretFly Mon 09 Mar 2015, 11:40 am

MrsP wrote:
clivemcl wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:Yup, the only tonic after that Ulster display would be for Ireland to blow Wales away.
The end of the season can't come quick enough if that's all we have to give.

But this is why it's such a strange emotional cocktail for us Ulster fans (and Munster and Leinster no doubt). We are almost disgusted by our performances and then we see the league table and can't figure out how we are supposed to feel!

Aren't we meant to be happy that we are joint second with still a fair likelihood of a top 4 finish?

What if we somehow managed to win a semi and then a final with wins similar to those against Scarlets and Edinburgh? We would be happy wouldn't we? Would we?

It comes down to the league really - any team could win the Pro12 this year only to get royally dumped out of the Champions Cup in the group stages. The pro12 title this season is so far off being a marker of class and ability it's a joke I'm sad to say.

But that could equally be said of the Top 14 or the Premiership.

Why has our league, which has produced many teams reaching the highest levels of European rugby in very recent years, suddenly become "a joke"?

Why was it not "a joke" when Ulster were playing well?

Here here say I Mrs P.

by clivemcl Mon 09 Mar 2015, 12:15 pm

SecretFly wrote:
MrsP wrote:
clivemcl wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:Yup, the only tonic after that Ulster display would be for Ireland to blow Wales away.
The end of the season can't come quick enough if that's all we have to give.

But this is why it's such a strange emotional cocktail for us Ulster fans (and Munster and Leinster no doubt). We are almost disgusted by our performances and then we see the league table and can't figure out how we are supposed to feel!

Aren't we meant to be happy that we are joint second with still a fair likelihood of a top 4 finish?

What if we somehow managed to win a semi and then a final with wins similar to those against Scarlets and Edinburgh? We would be happy wouldn't we? Would we?

It comes down to the league really - any team could win the Pro12 this year only to get royally dumped out of the Champions Cup in the group stages. The pro12 title this season is so far off being a marker of class and ability it's a joke I'm sad to say.

But that could equally be said of the Top 14 or the Premiership.

Why has our league, which has produced many teams reaching the highest levels of European rugby in very recent years, suddenly become "a joke"?

Why was it not "a joke" when Ulster were playing well?

Here here say I Mrs P.

Did I say it was "a joke" or was that someone else? Maybe I did.

But let me clarify - I'm not complaining about structures, or ref standards or those kind of general topics. I'm simply saying - right now it appears as if saying you are top 4 of the Pro 12 could in no way be a boast. Surely you don't think Ulster right now look like a team anyone would fear in Europe next year despite their high league standing.

Coming back to what I was saying - does winning badly feel as good as winning well? Let's be honest. We don't just want to win, we want to be a class act, a team to fear, a team that is enjoyable to watch. That's why despite wins against Treviso Edinburgh and Scarlets there was still plenty of negativity.

In fairness I don't watch AP or Top14, so I don't know if they have poor standard games at times.

by **Notch** Mon 09 Mar 2015, 12:16 pm

They do indeed. As for the Pro12 I think this is a poor-quality year in many ways with no one outstanding team. However, these things go in cycles.

by MrsP Mon 09 Mar 2015, 12:19 pm

clivemcl wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
MrsP wrote:
clivemcl wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:Yup, the only tonic after that Ulster display would be for Ireland to blow Wales away.
The end of the season can't come quick enough if that's all we have to give.

But this is why it's such a strange emotional cocktail for us Ulster fans (and Munster and Leinster no doubt). We are almost disgusted by our performances and then we see the league table and can't figure out how we are supposed to feel!

Aren't we meant to be happy that we are joint second with still a fair likelihood of a top 4 finish?

What if we somehow managed to win a semi and then a final with wins similar to those against Scarlets and Edinburgh? We would be happy wouldn't we? Would we?

It comes down to the league really - any team could win the Pro12 this year only to get royally dumped out of the Champions Cup in the group stages. The pro12 title this season is so far off being a marker of class and ability it's a joke I'm sad to say.

But that could equally be said of the Top 14 or the Premiership.

Why has our league, which has produced many teams reaching the highest levels of European rugby in very recent years, suddenly become "a joke"?

Why was it not "a joke" when Ulster were playing well?

Here here say I Mrs P.

Did I say it was "a joke" or was that someone else? Maybe I did.

But let me clarify - I'm not complaining about structures, or ref standards or those kind of general topics. I'm simply saying - right now it appears as if saying you are top 4 of the Pro 12 could in no way be a boast. Surely you don't think Ulster right now look like a team anyone would fear in Europe next year despite their high league standing.

Coming back to what I was saying - does winning badly feel as good as winning well? Let's be honest. We don't just want to win, we want to be a class act, a team to fear, a team that is enjoyable to watch. That's why despite wins against Treviso Edinburgh and Scarlets there was still plenty of negativity.

In fairness I don't watch AP or Top14, so I don't know if they have poor standard games at times.

by SecretFly Mon 09 Mar 2015, 12:24 pm

Clive, let's not forget this too is a first season of 'More at Stake'. So dynamics are different - thoughts are different from coaches - plans from Regions and Provinces (from Ireland to Italy) will also be now getting modified long term to take into account the new World Order (English/French admin domination of Europe)

This is just a beginning year of chasing for the top in a different way to perhaps it has been done previously - and systems and thinking around how to do that will have to be bedded down.

Meanwhile AP and Top14 have had no disruptions. Their season is the same dynamic as last one.

by clivemcl Mon 09 Mar 2015, 1:01 pm

MrsP wrote:
clivemcl wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
MrsP wrote:
clivemcl wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:Yup, the only tonic after that Ulster display would be for Ireland to blow Wales away.
The end of the season can't come quick enough if that's all we have to give.

But this is why it's such a strange emotional cocktail for us Ulster fans (and Munster and Leinster no doubt). We are almost disgusted by our performances and then we see the league table and can't figure out how we are supposed to feel!

Aren't we meant to be happy that we are joint second with still a fair likelihood of a top 4 finish?

What if we somehow managed to win a semi and then a final with wins similar to those against Scarlets and Edinburgh? We would be happy wouldn't we? Would we?

It comes down to the league really - any team could win the Pro12 this year only to get royally dumped out of the Champions Cup in the group stages. The pro12 title this season is so far off being a marker of class and ability it's a joke I'm sad to say.

But that could equally be said of the Top 14 or the Premiership.

Why has our league, which has produced many teams reaching the highest levels of European rugby in very recent years, suddenly become "a joke"?

Why was it not "a joke" when Ulster were playing well?

Here here say I Mrs P.

Did I say it was "a joke" or was that someone else? Maybe I did.

But let me clarify - I'm not complaining about structures, or ref standards or those kind of general topics. I'm simply saying - right now it appears as if saying you are top 4 of the Pro 12 could in no way be a boast. Surely you don't think Ulster right now look like a team anyone would fear in Europe next year despite their high league standing.

Coming back to what I was saying - does winning badly feel as good as winning well? Let's be honest. We don't just want to win, we want to be a class act, a team to fear, a team that is enjoyable to watch. That's why despite wins against Treviso Edinburgh and Scarlets there was still plenty of negativity.

In fairness I don't watch AP or Top14, so I don't know if they have poor standard games at times.

In my defense I do believe (In my head anyway) that

The pro12 title this season is so far off being a marker of class and ability it's a joke

is slightly different to saying "The league is a joke". I was simply saying its very dissapointing how poorly the current pro12 standings reflect quality. Being top4 in Pro12 right now does not equal being good. And that's a failing on the league this season sadly. We are only up there because everyone has seen a very obvious drop in quality. Not that we have all become worse - just that we are all underperforming at times.

by MrsP Mon 09 Mar 2015, 1:08 pm

by SecretFly Mon 09 Mar 2015, 1:12 pm

clivemcl wrote: Not that we have all become worse - just that we are all underperforming at times.

Speak for yourself, clive. Leinster have become worse - much worse - much much worse Crying or Very sad

by **rodders** Mon 09 Mar 2015, 1:20 pm

SecretFly wrote:I don't know - I saw an epic contest of attack and defence at the weekend (Connacht v Cardiff).

I thought Leinster scarlets was pretty good too. Definitely its more competitive this year.

That was dire from Ulster yesterday though, the brillaint Gilroy excepted. Even Pienaar was all over the place.

The pack were just shocking but a special mention for Williams who gave just about the worst performance from any pro player I can remember.

by marty2086 Mon 09 Mar 2015, 1:26 pm

rodders wrote:
SecretFly wrote:I don't know - I saw an epic contest of attack and defence at the weekend (Connacht v Cardiff).

I thought Leinster scarlets was pretty good too. Definitely its more competitive this year.

That was dire from Ulster yesterday though, the brillaint Gilroy excepted. Even Pienaar was all over the place.

The pack were just shocking but a special mention for Williams who gave just about the worst performance from any pro player I can remember.

Watching Pienaar recently he looks fed up, at the end of a few games he looks visibly frustrated and during games hes seemed to be giving off to his teammates at times more than in the past

by SecretFly Mon 09 Mar 2015, 1:30 pm

Let's be honest. Pienaar came and stayed for European rugby. The Pro12 is just a waiting game he played out whilst waiting for that bigger deal.

The Pro12 is backwater to him - the sheen was in getting to Europe. Europe is gone. His focus can't pretend anymore that it's interested in the Pro12 show.
Might also be a disillusionment with the coaching team? SA's in Ulster seem to always suspect the worth of a NH coach..... Whistle

by The Great Aukster Mon 09 Mar 2015, 1:36 pm

Ulster shouldn't look like a team that others fear in Europe at the moment. Best, Henry, O'Connor, Wilson, Jackson, Olding, McCloskey, Marshall, Trimble, Bowe and Payne all missing and co-incidentally are the most influential players Ulster have. This is the first season for Herbst, VdM, and Ludik who have had to behave as mainstays rather than newboys integrating into a team. Then there are the injury stop/starts like Tuohy and Williams who have missed significant chunks of the season.

Far from being a joke of a league it could equally be argued that if any team (like Ulster) don't show up mentally they will get beaten by those who do - that is an indication the league is getting stronger rather than weaker. Equally the closeness of the top teams points shows that it is very competitive with no gulfs in class that are apparent in both the AP and T14.

by clivemcl Mon 09 Mar 2015, 1:40 pm

SecretFly wrote:Let's be honest. Pienaar came and stayed for European rugby. The Pro12 is just a waiting game he played out whilst waiting for that bigger deal.

The Pro12 is backwater to him - the sheen was in getting to Europe. Europe is gone. His focus can't pretend anymore that it's interested in the Pro12 show.
Might also be a disillusionment with the coaching team? SA's in Ulster seem to always suspect the worth of a NH coach.....

I can't believe that's true of any player. No matter what the competition. Surely these guys want to win whatever is going??

I would understand if he was peed off about the poor performances around him or the coaching setup.

But to be fully honest - he himself was as bad as anybody yesterday.

Like I said before - time to tell Pienaar to wind his neck in, play him at 10 with Stanley outside him and Marshall at 9. Needs must.

Either that or start Stanley at 10 if Ludik is back. Scholes did ok.

Humphries attempt at a tackle was the most infuriating thing I've seen in a long time, and he threw his arms up at his teammates. steam

by The Great Aukster Mon 09 Mar 2015, 1:43 pm

Pienaar hasn't looked fit since he returned from his injury. He has had to soldier on through the past four years with no break from Rugby at all. This season he has had to provide on-field leadership as well, as frankly Wilson and Cave aren't up to it.

He had a poor game by his standards, but at least put himself about when guys like Humphreys, Williams and Cave looked disinterested.

by Guest Mon 09 Mar 2015, 1:48 pm

SecretFly wrote:Let's be honest. Pienaar came and stayed for European rugby. The Pro12 is just a waiting game he played out whilst waiting for that bigger deal.

The Pro12 is backwater to him - the sheen was in getting to Europe. Europe is gone. His focus can't pretend anymore that it's interested in the Pro12 show.
Might also be a disillusionment with the coaching team? SA's in Ulster seem to always suspect the worth of a NH coach.....

Pienaar's reasons for staying at Ulster reach beyond rugby. Pienaar has fully committed himself to Ulster, and his obvious frustration is a reflection of that. He isn't happy with our forwards play, and who can blame him. They have been awful recently, and getting worse. For someone of world class quality like Pienaar to commit to Ulster, and then for his Ulster team mates to play as though winning doesn't really matter to them... I can understand his upset.

by SecretFly Mon 09 Mar 2015, 1:48 pm

clivemcl wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Let's be honest. Pienaar came and stayed for European rugby. The Pro12 is just a waiting game he played out whilst waiting for that bigger deal.

The Pro12 is backwater to him - the sheen was in getting to Europe. Europe is gone. His focus can't pretend anymore that it's interested in the Pro12 show.
Might also be a disillusionment with the coaching team? SA's in Ulster seem to always suspect the worth of a NH coach.....

I can't believe that's true of any player. No matter what the competition. Surely these guys want to win whatever is going??

The selling point for his arrival was most definitely Europe. That's all I'm saying. Same for the players Leinster attracted. "Europe? Against Top14 and AP teams? Yeah, I'd like to get my teeth into that".

So Pro12 on it's own........................................ there are question marks from a player of his international calibre and reputation.

by MrsP Mon 09 Mar 2015, 1:50 pm

Very difficult to gauge Pienaar's game yesterday when almost no-one else was trying, or so it looked.

by SecretFly Mon 09 Mar 2015, 1:51 pm

Munchkin wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Let's be honest. Pienaar came and stayed for European rugby. The Pro12 is just a waiting game he played out whilst waiting for that bigger deal.

The Pro12 is backwater to him - the sheen was in getting to Europe. Europe is gone. His focus can't pretend anymore that it's interested in the Pro12 show.
Might also be a disillusionment with the coaching team? SA's in Ulster seem to always suspect the worth of a NH coach.....

Pienaar's reasons for staying at Ulster reach beyond rugby. Pienaar has fully committed himself to Ulster, and his obvious frustration is a reflection of that. He isn't happy with our forwards play, and who can blame him. They have been awful recently, and getting worse. For someone of world class quality like Pienaar to commit to Ulster, and then for his Ulster team mates to play as though winning doesn't really matter to them... I can understand his upset.

But he's part of that package of underperformance as other Ulster fans are alluding to, Munchkin. If he turns off because his forwards can't turn on....

I have no doubt that he loved Ulster and loves the life and people. In interviews it comes across. But he's competitive.

by clivemcl Mon 09 Mar 2015, 1:55 pm

I have to say, despite the cynicism for him over the season, I was very glad to see Paul Marshall come on - somebody who is always keen to play cocky rugby especially when brought on late in the game. I can't help but feel, at this stage in the season, having been kept on the bench - Paul Marshall might just inject the energy our team need.

I'd go for

Marshall
Pienaar
Allen
Stanley
Cave
Gilroy
Ludik

by **Notch** Mon 09 Mar 2015, 1:56 pm

Thread is locked due to its length. Successor thread here

https://www.606v2.com/t58071-ulster-2014-2015-part-4

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