Ulster 2014/2015, Part 3

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Continue to discuss Ulsters lack of back row options and season in general

Our scrum to my mind has regressed as the season went on, as has our maul. We aren't getting the same joy from either that we had previously. 

That's a fair enough point on Mullers influence but then questions need asked as to why these guys were appointed. 

What kind of coach is the new guy coming in (his name escapes me)?

Joe Barakat, no idea. He was a defence coach when he was in Australia (defence coach with the Waratahs) but in his most recent job in Japan he seemed to be coaching everything.

Thinking about it, as poor as some of the performances have been, we're nearly miraculously well positioned in the table. Worst case scenario at the end of the weekend we're joint second.

I think our three key players are all long term absentees- Paddy Jackson, Andrew Trimble and Chris Henry. I think with those three back we would be a hell of a lot better and any Ulster coach would be struggling to replace them. If we can get Jackson and Henry back for the end of the season, who knows?

Notch wrote:Thinking about it, as poor as some of the performances have been, we're nearly miraculously well positioned in the table. Worst case scenario at the end of the weekend we're joint second.

With Munster only drawing, a win for Ospreys with no LBP would have Glasgow top by virtue of games won which isn't bad at all

So we finish the weekend in second. It really is ludicrous but then if we don't make hay now we have the three toughest fixtures in the run in.

Scarlets will be tough but 4 points would be good

Yeah, 4 or even 5 would be exceptional but I'd take 4.

We're second but come to next week without focus and we could easily be fifth again soon.

So our lads are 4 points ahead, with 2 wins more than the chasing teams.

So really all Ulster need to do is to place 2nd and you have the luxury of knowing you'll play the last games of the season at home.

When will Henry be back? You have missed him terribly and do not have a like for like replacement as far as I can see.

George, I'd be surprised If he were back this season.

I think Notch is right - those three are almost the biggest losses we could have.  Trimble is crucial to Ulster - more so than Bowe.  Best is an excellent player,  but Herring is very good.  There are no very good sevens after Henry. Payne has been superb for us over the last few years at fifteen,  but for a stretch of last season and most of this season he has been wasted at 13, so his importance to us has waned. Them and Pienaar.

Geoff had mentioned and Schmidt had also expressed confidence that henry will be back before the business end. Given the way our fixtures have fallen if we got Henry back before the last three that would be key. Trimble and Jackson may be longer term injuries based on what Geoff said and Stanleys signing seems to hint at the latter.

George Carlin wrote:So really all Ulster need to do is to place 2nd and you have the luxury of knowing you'll play the last games of the season at home.

Yeah, there is no difference at all between 1st and 2nd for us. If we can avoid Leinster regardless of where in the Top 4 we finish (assuming we make it) thats fine.

At this point I think the only team that look odds on to make the last four is Glasgow. I just don't see them losing out. In truth top four would be a bonus for me. Pre-season I would have demanded top two, by Christmas I was praying for top six. With the news that the final is at Ravenhill and that little bit of good fortune heathcote gave us last night I am hopeful. That said we have been embarrassed by the ospreys and leinster this season away. We really need a home semi.

Absolutely astounding that we are 2nd in the league after the season we have had. Which is the worst in a few years. Final at Ravenhill or not, I can't see us doing it.

Looking back at the season so far how we're in second place boggles my mind something awful but hey, I'll take it. If we're as stuttering as we've been and managed this position heading into the business end of the season we must be one hell of a side

As has been previously mentioned we need to blood these temporary signings if we're to get any benefit from them. I mean the Raaymakers signing as a medical joker has been a joke so lets hope Boys and Stanley can bring something to the party.

I'm not worried about Humphreys' performance the other night, he always did have his blips and it wasn't helpful that Ruan was having a bad day at the office. The thing that worries me is how the squad will react to the pressures involved in the end of season run-in. We can do it but it's going to be a tough ask.

On injuries you wont see Trimble or Jackson again this season

Hopeful Olding and Henry will make the big three games at the end - bench for Connacht perhaps?

Tuohy will be back sooner.

Appreciate that Trimble and Jackson are big players for us but neither makes my top 4 mvp list.
In order that is
Pienaer, Herbst, Henry, Henderson - simply because no one comes close to their standard in their positions

Chris Henry has tweeted he is scheduled for late April which fits in with the above.

The things that are going to stop our being home in the SF are the breakdown and fly half.
Fly half we would be ok if Humph was playing well but unfortunately he is Poopie at the moment and a total passenger.
Breakdown needs a passable 7 - we dont have one; it also needs Diack at 6 not Wilson.
Unfortunately without Heaslip Ireland may not release Diack - if not friday will be difficult.

O'Connor has a groin strain not too bad I believe but not sure about this week though.
If Boys and Stanley are not in the 23 given the above I simply dont see the point bringing them over in the first place

My team

Black, Herring, Herbst, O'Connor, de Merwe, Diack, Wilson, Boys
Pienaer, Humphreys, Allen, Marshall, Cave, Gilroy, Ludik
Bench: Warwick, Andrew, B. Ross, Stevenson, Williams, Marshall, Stanley, Nelson

No O''Connor then Stevenson starts, McCormish on the bench
No Diack then Wilson has to move to 6 and McCormish on the bench
If both changes required then add C.Ross to the bench

I'd say you wouldn't be too far away with that Geoff, as you say Boys and Stanley need to be seen at the very least on the bench. They can't be allowed to become Raaymakers.

Do you think Hump's lack of form of late is a symptom of our breakdown troubles and the lack of front foot rugby? If we had a little more go forward I reckon we'd see a different Humphreys. Maybe that's wishful thinking on my part.

I think it contributes but to be honest it is worrying that he goes through phases where he simply falls apart - mentally frail.

This is the worst possible time for it to happen - he needs to get a grip and man up
If not we are in trouble

Guy who knows what is talking about says O'Connor will be missing a few weeks.
Thats the thing about groin strains they dont seem to be bad but have a tendancy to take for ever to clear up

Good news is Tuohy is close to being fit if Cardiff at the latest

has there been any word on McCloskey's impending citing? I've heard nothing and the 48 hour window is long gone. Any new anyone?

It was a red card so there will automatically be a hearing. No need for a citing.

Yup, I knew that but my brain hadn't processed it at all
Thanks MrsP

Rumour has it we've signed IQ Pete Browne from London Welsh. Not a headline grabber, but I'll not complain at having a look at any backrower who is IQ these days.

We're basically going to try and sign every mediocre IQ back row until one shows something.

clivemcl wrote:Rumour has it we've signed IQ Pete Browne from London Welsh. Not a headline grabber, but I'll not complain at having a look at any backrower who is IQ these days.

At least we're signing players who will bring a winning mentality to the team

From this article it seems he fits the 'Ulster Way'

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/rugby.ace.pete.browne.plays.hard.but.fair/28598.htm

His career has been in a downward spiral, Harlequins to Newcastle to London Welsh. The thing that bothers me is we seem to be at the bottom of his spiral

Chins up though folks if we keep signing at this rate we are bound to find a gem at some stage

Another run of the mill, not good enough backrower, what is the point - McCormish, Reidy, Ross, Butterworth we have them in bucket loads already.
What it does say is at least 2 of those 4 are off in the summer, probably 3.
All their contracts are up this summer - I'd keep Ross and ditch the rest

On other news I see PJ, Olding and Hendo enjoyed Saturday night

geoff998rugby wrote:Another run of the mill, not good enough backrower, what is the point - McCormish, Reidy, Ross, Butterworth we have them in bucket loads already.
What it does say is at least 2 of those 4 are off in the summer, probably 3.
All their contracts are up this summer - I'd keep Ross and ditch the rest

On other news I see PJ, Olding and Hendo enjoyed Saturday night

Elaborate Geoff, elaborate

Few beers let their hair down nothing untoward - at a BRA venue - both Hendo and Olding ex pupils.

Well oiled would be an appropriate phrase

clivemcl wrote:Rumour has it we've signed IQ Pete Browne from London Welsh. Not a headline grabber, but I'll not complain at having a look at any backrower who is IQ these days.

Don't see why anyone should be written off before he's given a chance. At 6'7" and 18+stone he also covers lock, has plenty of premiership experience at 6 & 8 and is 27. At the very least he stands a chance of replacing two squad players - McComb and McComish so he doesn't have to be that good.

He's a squad player nothing more, having said that I do see he has played 2nd row before so maybe the replacement for McComb.

A replacement who can play both backrow and lock instead of McComb does make some sense.

We still need to sign, at least, one more decent backrower though.

See Diack has a back injury, so its Wilson at 6 again I assume

geoff998rugby wrote:

See Diack has a back injury, so its Wilson at 6 again I assume

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/News/LatestNews/TabId/149/ArtMID/793/ArticleID/3318/Roger-Wilson-called-into-Ireland-training-squad.aspx

Thats if he's available, after being called into the Ireland training squad. I presume he'll be standing around holding tackle bags?

He will be but we only have Williams, Ross, Boys, and maybe Reidy available.

McCormish, Henry, Diack all probably out with injury.

The Great Aukster wrote:

clivemcl wrote:Rumour has it we've signed IQ Pete Browne from London Welsh. Not a headline grabber, but I'll not complain at having a look at any backrower who is IQ these days.

Don't see why anyone should be written off before he's given a chance. At 6'7" and 18+stone he also covers lock, has plenty of premiership experience at 6 & 8 and is 27. At the very least he stands a chance of replacing two squad players - McComb and McComish so he doesn't have to be that good.

Pretty sure he is a second row who can cover back row. Quite limited AP experience till this season with London Welsh (started 4 AP matches in his 3 seasons with Quins, was an LV player for them).

Bench player during international windows is the most I would expect from him. (Just don't tell my personal trainer I said that as they are friends)

Hopefully Wilson will be released for the game on Friday. We'll be fairly buggered otherwise...

Selling the ground out during an international window is fantastic.

Thanks LondonTiger - convinces me he is a straight replacement for McComb.

Best of luck to him - to be honest nothing to beat as McComb was crap

McCloskey given 4 weeks which ends on the 29th March - that is 5 weeks not 4 weeks.
All Welsh panel and we play Cardiff on the 27th - funny that

geoff998rugby wrote:McCloskey given 4 weeks which ends on the 29th March - that is 5 weeks not 4 weeks.
All Welsh panel and we play Cardiff on the 27th - funny that  

Now you sound like one of them!

In fairness you could probably play McComb, his mate ish and my long dead granny in the pack and still beat Cardiff.

Is your dead granny IQ? Because there may be an opening in the back row for her... tell her to call Ulster Rugbys office and ask for Bryn

Maybe we should all go round tomorrow and have a go at playing Openside, I used to play there in school and college so I think that makes me qualified at this stage

I'm a bit confused about the McCloskey red card. OK, perhaps letter of the law left ref with no choice, but the severity of the ban has sort of reinforced the notion of outrageousness about the incident.



I get it, if a player is in the air, even if a player is upright and is tipped over horizontal - that can be pretty dangerous. But wasnt the player in this incident laying on top of a ruck when his legs were tossed over. I would have thought the chances of a serious injury from Mccloskey's actions were pretty slim.

Am I missing something here?

While not being as dangerous as being in the air, the weight of the human body if dropped while head is towards ground even if not falling from any height would all come down on the neck. As you can imagine the neck is not strong enough to take 14, 15 or whatever stone most players are and so there is the potential to break the neck leaving someone paralysed.
I should say I am not saying the length of the ban is correct here just explaining how it could be dangerous, I had something similar to this happen to me when trying to steal the ball at a ruck so I can't really be objective in the handling of these incidents.

Yea, I see what your are saying. Probably only danger if the head is immovable for example being held or wedged between two bodies maybe. You see a similar thing quite often where the rolling a player over technigue is used to clear rucks and the players arm is trapped between two bodies. Not a pretty thing to witness.

Is this ban length similar though to what is normally given for upright spear tackles, and tackles in the air? Or are they normally more lengthy?

P.S. It's pretty obvious McCloskey is the current golden boy. If any number of players on the field that night had done the same thing getting themselves sent off and banned, we would have seen the fans spitting blood.

It was pretty idiotic it has to be said.

Notch wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:McCloskey given 4 weeks which ends on the 29th March - that is 5 weeks not 4 weeks.
All Welsh panel and we play Cardiff on the 27th - funny that  

Now you sound like one of them!

No I'm different I can count

clivemcl wrote:Yea, I see what your are saying. Probably only danger if the head is immovable for example being held or wedged between two bodies maybe. You see a similar thing quite often where the rolling a player over technigue is used to clear rucks and the players arm is trapped between two bodies. Not a pretty thing to witness.

Is this ban length similar though to what is normally given for upright spear tackles, and tackles in the air? Or are they normally more lengthy?

P.S. It's pretty obvious McCloskey is the current golden boy. If any number of players on the field that night had done the same thing getting themselves sent off and banned, we would have seen the fans spitting blood.

It was pretty idiotic it has to be said.

As soon as it happened and the ref said TMO I knew he was off. When it happened to me I had my arms completely free and was able to land top of my back more than neck but still did some neck damage which leaves me sore from time to time but in this case it was more dangerous as one of our players (maybe Allen not really sure) was holding his arms so he couldn't really do anything had it went south.

neilthom7 wrote:While not being as dangerous as being in the air, the weight of the human body if dropped while head is towards ground even if not falling from any height would all come down on the neck.  As you can imagine the neck is not strong enough to take 14, 15 or whatever stone most players are and so there is the potential to break the neck leaving someone paralysed.
I should say I am not saying the length of the ban is correct here just explaining how it could be dangerous, I had something similar to this happen to me when trying to steal the ball at a ruck so I can't really be objective in the handling of these incidents.

You would be surprised at how strong the neck is actually. Wrestling (olympic) and Judo are two sports where people are continually thrown on their upper back/neck area with great force. Spear tackling should be officiated appropriately (red card) but a player being upended in a ruck like that is hardly dangerous, if he isn't being lifted in the air. In fact it is quite an easy mistake to make, as players are flopping over the rucks all over the show. A penalty at the most if they want to play extremely safe and ensure it doesn't happen. A red is ridiculous.

At this stage, you have to know that you cannot upend anyone in any way during a game of rugby. And, I think, that is right and good. It was at least a yellow and in this climate anything like that will be red. I do think there should be a distinction between upending a player and upending them and driving them into the ground. The second is much, much more dangerous than what actually happened.

The length of the ban... well sometimes it seems like the number of weeks you get banned for these things is based on dice rolls or coin tosses. But we can't complain about that either. Once you open yourself up to it, you are totally at the mercy of the system. McCloskey deserves a ban- more for his stupidity than for his actions- and hopefully he will learn. We have had far too many red cards recently, 4 in a calendar year is just way too much, and if this is what it takes for us to stop reckless splay so be it.

Note I say reckless, not dangerous. 3 out of 4 of those cards were just for stupid, reckless mistakes in the heat of the moment. But these are like any other brainfarts. They have to be eliminated from our game as assiduously as intercepted passes or kicks out on the full.

neilthom7 wrote:While not being as dangerous as being in the air, the weight of the human body if dropped while head is towards ground even if not falling from any height would all come down on the neck.  As you can imagine the neck is not strong enough to take 14, 15 or whatever stone most players are and so there is the potential to break the neck leaving someone paralysed.
I should say I am not saying the length of the ban is correct here just explaining how it could be dangerous, I had something similar to this happen to me when trying to steal the ball at a ruck so I can't really be objective in the handling of these incidents.

What annoys me is that I have mentioned the gill incident already (and it's this season) and I can't find reference to a citing for him for a very similar tackle. So one guy gets a red and four weeks and (if I'm right about the no citing) one guy gets 10 minutes.

I am happy to be corrected here but if not the inconsistency is nothing short of disgraceful

Notch wrote:At this stage, you have to know that you cannot upend anyone in any way during a game of rugby. And, I think, that is right and good. It was at least a yellow and in this climate anything like that will be red. I do think there should be a distinction between upending a player and upending them and driving them into the ground. The second is much, much more dangerous than what actually happened.

The length of the ban... well sometimes it seems like the number of weeks you get banned for these things is based on dice rolls or coin tosses. But we can't complain about that either. Once you open yourself up to it, you are totally at the mercy of the system. McCloskey deserves a ban- more for his stupidity than for his actions- and hopefully he will learn. We have had far too many red cards recently, 4 in a calendar year is just way too much, and if this is what it takes for us to stop reckless splay so be it.

Note I say reckless, not dangerous. 3 out of 4 of those cards were just for stupid, reckless mistakes in the heat of the moment. But these are like any other brainfarts. They have to be eliminated from our game as assiduously as intercepted passes or kicks out on the full.

I would add that most wouldn't argue with 3 of those reds. Only Paynes I still find contentious because the referees (including the same one) continually refuse to punish others by the same standards set out for JP

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:While not being as dangerous as being in the air, the weight of the human body if dropped while head is towards ground even if not falling from any height would all come down on the neck.  As you can imagine the neck is not strong enough to take 14, 15 or whatever stone most players are and so there is the potential to break the neck leaving someone paralysed.
I should say I am not saying the length of the ban is correct here just explaining how it could be dangerous, I had something similar to this happen to me when trying to steal the ball at a ruck so I can't really be objective in the handling of these incidents.

You would be surprised at how strong the neck is actually. Wrestling (olympic) and Judo are two sports where people are continually thrown on their upper back/neck area with great force. Spear tackling should be officiated appropriately (red card) but a player being upended in a ruck like that is hardly dangerous, if he isn't being lifted in the air. In fact it is quite an easy mistake to make, as players are flopping over the rucks all over the show. A penalty at the most if they want to play extremely safe and ensure it doesn't happen. A red is ridiculous.

Yep and in both these sports there is a high number of neck, back and spinal cord injuries, it very much is dangerous the way he did it, as I have said I suffered neck injuries in a similar incident and I was able to use my hands to stop myself falling directly on my neck in this case he would not have been able to do this.