Stiverne-Wilder for the WBC Heavy Title. Who Takes It?

First topic message reminder :

WBC champ Bermaine Stiverne & No 1 challenger & KO artist Deontay Wilder clash this weekend in Las Vegas.

Neither are particularly tested at the top level, with pretty much Stiverne's top level fight other than Lumbering Nipple Cris Arreola was a bit of a struggle against Ray Austin, who was about 96 at the time. Wilder on the other hand is crude and untested with massive power but there is a question mark over his chin as he's been all over queer street in some early videos when he's actually been hit. Wilder has height and speed, and Stiverne is tough, solid and is more experienced. It is an intriguing match up. Stiverne's 36, Wilder is 29 and a potentially very exciting fighter, but could turn into the US version of David Price.

At the moment Wilder is the betting favourite; however, I have this nagging doubt about what Wilder would do when tagged with a half decent shot. I think this fight has excitement written or over it. I doubt very much that it will go 12. Wilder seems to only know one way to fight and that is to bulldoze his opponent from the get-go and wing fast hard punches from all angles to get them out of there. Most of his opponents have been overwhelmed by power and speed, but he hasn't faced anyone who has obviously come to fight. I see Stiverne going down under an early onslaught but getting up to weather the storm. He'll make Wilder miss and take him out by round 5. Which, in all likelihood, means a 1st KO for Wilder.

Wilder has plenty to trouble Wlad. He is big, powerful and mobile and poses something Klitschko hasnt had to deal with over his whole career.

I think I saw enough to trouble Wlad.

Not only is he comparative in terms of size...but he has a piston of a jab....and carries the power....which is well documented..

If anyone else had been in the ring last night, I am absolutely CERTAIN that Wilder would have stopped them within 7.

I think he jumps in too much however when he hurts his prey....he does swing windmills.....but he can take a shot....and can move....he can also do a full 12 under pressure.

I think he hammers Fury in 3 and will demolish all contenders.

He probably loses to Wlad currently, but he will give him something to think about.

I'm not gonna write Fury off anymore. Doing so has made a mug of me too many times in the past.

Wlad is almost impossible to hit clean and Wilder is not that hard to hit. In a boxing match I'd only see Wlad winning. Wlad wouldn't have taken the shots Stiverne did and he would cack it if Wilder got though with a few windmills but I just don't think Wilder is mature enough yet, he's still a bit loose in his defense and drops his hands. His jab was looked good but Stiverne was stationery, wasn't quick enough to land in range and was 5 inches smaller.

I'm pretty sure Wlad would bore him to death. Totally different ball game.

Impossible to hit clean? Hes been on the deck how many times? Wilder did the same job on Stiverne last night that Klitschko has made a career out of doing. At least Wilder let his hands go from time to time and didnt rely on hugging Stiverne to death. Klitschkos crappy opposition has flattered his defence. Wilder can give him a lot of problems. He only needs to land once with one of those rights hands.

Hearing that Stiverne required serious medical attention after the fight, hopefully it's not as bad as it sounds.

catchweight wrote:Impossible to hit clean? Hes been on the deck how many times? Wilder did the same job on Stiverne last night that Klitschko has made a career out of doing. At least Wilder let his hands go from time to time and didnt rely on hugging Stiverne to death. Klitschkos crappy opposition has flattered his defence. Wilder can give him a lot of problems. He only needs to land once with one of those rights hands.

Wlad hasn't hit the deck in a long time and changed his game to ensure his chin doesn't get exposed. Between the pawing jab and clinching Wlad isn't going to be dethroned by a green fighter.

Klitschko might beat Wilder but he is far from impossible to hit clean and Wilder represents a real threat.

Think Wilder has got as good a chance as any if the world right now of beating Wlad, arguably more so.

Definitely rank him ahead of Haye and Fury, for example.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Think Wilder has got as good a chance as any if the world right now of beating Wlad, arguably more so.

Definitely rank him ahead of Haye and Fury, for example.

Look on the brightside... If Wilder did stop him...............At least he wouldn't have to worry about Wlad getting his big brother to sort him out !!

Like last time !!..........

How Sanders isn't a huge minus for Wladdy.......Heaven knows !!

Actually Truss, Vitali is considering coming back for a fight with Wilder.

I think it is, Truss.

It's tricky though, because on the one hand losses early in a career when green shouldn't hamper someone's standing overall (Lewis being a obvious example re McCall) but Wlad's issue is that he a) never avenged them; and b) arguably never fought someone as dangerous again.

Therefore we don't know whether they were early career novice slip-ups or fundamental flaws that would have been exposed later in his career if he'd fought similar calibre opponents.

The win over Haye, and a possible future win over Wilder, would dispel these concerns, IMO.

Can't pick and choose what is relevant.............

Sanders was aesthetic and a straight punching Southpaw !!....

So how can Haye and Wilder dispel concerns...........When they are nothing like him !!

Garbage !!

Issue isn't being like Sanders, it's how green Wlad was. Hoppo learnt a bucket load and isn't judged on losing his first fight.

Haye isn't slated for losing to Thompson.

Lewis isn't destroyed for McCall.

Why? Because they were seen as relatively green at the time and people view that they learnt a huge amount since (Lewis having the added benefit of revenge).

TopHat24/7 wrote:Issue isn't being like Sanders, it's how green Wlad was.  Hoppo learnt a bucket load and isn't judged on losing his first fight.

Haye isn't slated for losing to Thompson.

Lewis isn't destroyed for McCall.

Why? Because they were seen as relatively green at the time and people view that they learnt a huge amount since (Lewis having the added benefit of revenge).

Wlad can't do the basics against a straight punching southpaw and he's green............

Lewis got caught by MCcall and avenged the loss.........

Sanders destroyed the stinking slob......Couldn't miss him!!......and his brother avenged him..

Haye was a novice..............and was winning before he got knackered.....Wlad was a champion against Sanders...

Give it a rest.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Issue isn't being like Sanders, it's how green Wlad was.  Hoppo learnt a bucket load and isn't judged on losing his first fight.

Haye isn't slated for losing to Thompson.

Lewis isn't destroyed for McCall.

Why? Because they were seen as relatively green at the time and people view that they learnt a huge amount since (Lewis having the added benefit of revenge).

Yes he is, "gassed" "lost to an old man" etc etc and always used as the proof that he lacks stamina and has never addressed the issue in any of his fights subsequently

As for Lewis, you yourself have often stated that no ATG should lose to "chaff" like McCall and Rahman

DAVE667 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Issue isn't being like Sanders, it's how green Wlad was.  Hoppo learnt a bucket load and isn't judged on losing his first fight.

Haye isn't slated for losing to Thompson.

Lewis isn't destroyed for McCall.

Why? Because they were seen as relatively green at the time and people view that they learnt a huge amount since (Lewis having the added benefit of revenge).

Yes he is, "gassed" "lost to an old man" etc etc and always used as the proof that he lacks stamina and has never addressed the issue in any of his fights subsequently

As for Lewis, you yourself have often stated that no ATG should lose to "chaff" like McCall and Rahman

Not the only one being banged to rights today !!

When Dave slaps your botty on the Boxing threads............You know you are in the wrong place !!

DAVE667 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Issue isn't being like Sanders, it's how green Wlad was.  Hoppo learnt a bucket load and isn't judged on losing his first fight.

Haye isn't slated for losing to Thompson.

Lewis isn't destroyed for McCall.

Why? Because they were seen as relatively green at the time and people view that they learnt a huge amount since (Lewis having the added benefit of revenge).

Yes he is, "gassed" "lost to an old man" etc etc and always used as the proof that he lacks stamina and has never addressed the issue in any of his fights subsequently

As for Lewis, you yourself have often stated that no ATG should lose to "chaff" like McCall and Rahman

Disagree. Haye gets negative points for it, and the 'gas' issue is brought up, but his career is then measured on the basis of what he built up after it.

And re Lewis, I have him Top5 ATG HW, so I'm hardly knocking him that hard, am I?

Apologies Toppy, the Haye "gassing" comment is for you, the Lewis "chaff" comment is for TRUSS. Don't ever recall you using the term "chaff" regarding Rahman and McCall, that's definitely TRUSS but again I stand by my belief that Haye gets slated for Thompson, even though it may be part and parcel of the general slagging he tends to get these days, no-one says "Haye's sh!t blah blah blah but I give him a pass for losing to Carl Thompson" Then again, folk might no be too objective where Haye's concerned

Nice to see you slotting into Hayemaker's shoes since he 'left', Dave.....

Already said I'm saddened by Hayemaker's disappearance from the boards as I've been reinstated as David Haye's Nuthugger numero uno by default.

Seems my protestations that Haye's inactivity has turned even a fervent supporter like me off him have fallen on deaf and stupid ears

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Wlad can't do the basics against a straight punching southpaw and he's green............

Lewis got caught by MCcall and avenged the loss.........

Sanders destroyed the stinking slob......Couldn't miss him!!......and his brother avenged him..

Haye was a novice..............and was winning before he got knackered.....Wlad was a champion against Sanders...

Give it a rest.

Of all the things you can say about Wlad, slob isn't one of them!

How green can a 26 year old Olympic gold medallist making the 6th defence of a world title really be?

You can say Haye and Hopkins were green which to a degree they were but it's not an excuse that can be used for Wlad or even Lewis.

Mentioned yesterday that Stiverne needed medical attention after the fight, turns out he was suffering severe dehydration and is still in hospital. Doctors are apparently shocked he was able to complete the 6 rounds in his condition.

... And flabbergasted he went 12

Yes that's what I meant, he was hardly in peak condition so for him to be dehydrated is pretty bad.

hampo171 wrote:Yes that's what I meant, he was hardly in peak condition so for him to be dehydrated is pretty bad.

I remember when the two slobs Witherspoon and Tubbs went 15 at a decent pace !!

Don't know what's wrong with Heavies these days...

I seem to train harder in the gym than most kids now.....

Hard work seems to be a thing of the past !!

hampo171 wrote:Yes that's what I meant, he was hardly in peak condition so for him to be dehydrated is pretty bad.

maybe getting punched hard in the face all night makes you sweat.

havent seen the fight, but stiverne, always looks a bit 'soft', doesn't have to boil down to make weight, it wasn't fought in 120 degrees, and doesn't sound like it was at a ridiculous lick, so yep, it sounds like his conditioning could have been better.

milkyboy wrote:

hampo171 wrote:Yes that's what I meant, he was hardly in peak condition so for him to be dehydrated is pretty bad.

maybe getting punched hard in the face all night makes you sweat.

havent seen the fight, but stiverne, always looks a bit 'soft', doesn't have to boil down to make weight, it wasn't fought in 120 degrees, and doesn't sound like it was at a ridiculous lick, so yep, it sounds like his conditioning could have been better.

Stiverne's limitation particularly slow feet and lack of upper body and head movement were exposed. Wilder boxed on the back foot and Stiverne was useless on the front foot even before stamina came into it.

Strongy, have you jumped aboard the "Wilder is garbage pre-fight and now he's done a complete job on Stiverne it was the later who is so useless that we may as well delete the win from Wilder's record" bullet train to Shutupville?

I don't particularly rate the guy, but c'mon - give him a bit of credit. Stiverne was viewed as a big step up in class and he got smacked silly by Wilder in a genuine 50-50 matchup as most were calling it beforehand.

Lets not get upset because the majority of people are now picking Wilder to smack the traveller around for a couple of rounds before humiliating him with 4 knockdowns in the 3rd before putting his head in to row 10

Stiverne reminds me of Mark Henry

Seems a bit odd that a guy that doesn't have to make weight suffers from severe dehydration, its not like he had to drain himself then rehydrate himself after the weigh in. Poor preperation and not drinking enough water in my opinion.

Not exactly AP chemistry there.

You go to any gym and you'll see guys like me that sweat like stuck pigs and other guys that work just as hard and don't sweat much at all.

Sweating is the body's way of keeping cool and expelling toxins that help your immune system fight viruses etc...

Because this guy suffered dehydration doesn't necessarily mean he's prepared poorly..

Just may mean his body is not as functionable as it could be..

sohotnot wrote:Seems a bit odd that a guy that doesn't have to make weight suffers from severe dehydration, its not like he had to drain himself then rehydrate himself after the weigh in. Poor preperation and not drinking enough water in my opinion.

Which I read as "Partied like a mother*cker after he won the title and couldn't be arsed training properly even though he was probably about 2 stone above his ideal fighting weight" Disgraceful attitude and he deserved to lose but sad that Wilder had to pick up the belt as he's no great shakes either. Still, I'll allow TRUSS seven minutes to w*nk himself silly over the future ATG before we have to endure the Tyson Fury?Deontay Wilder merry-go-round

He's been diagnosed with Rhabdomyolysis...............It's a muscle injury that affects the blood and causes the body to heat up more than is good for you...Leading to severe dehydration !!

So anyone questioning this guy's professionalism........Give him an apology..

Bit strange that something of that nature hadn't been diagnosed sooner, isn't it?

Maybe he's not been pushed hard enough to trigger it before?

You'd have to imagine that at times he is pushing himself hard enough in training for it to be noticeable.

You'd have to imagine that at times he is pushing himself hard enough in training for it to be noticeable.

Rhabdomyolysis is a pretty serious, sometimes fatal, condition. A definite sign of overtraining.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He's been diagnosed with Rhabdomyolysis...............It's a muscle injury that affects the blood and causes the body to heat up more than is good for you...Leading to severe dehydration !!

So anyone questioning this guy's professionalism........Give him an apology..

Yeah, but what caused it?

He's cited poor hydration when exercising, however, here are a few more causes:

- Drugs of abuse, including: alcohol, amphetamine, cocaine, heroin, ketamine, LSD and MDMA (ecstasy)
- Medications that interfere with potassium levels, such as diuretics

trottb wrote:You'd have to imagine that at times he is pushing himself hard enough in training for it to be noticeable.

It probably happened in the fight......It's a very fast acting condition..

Coxy001 wrote:Strongy, have you jumped aboard the "Wilder is garbage pre-fight and now he's done a complete job on Stiverne it was the later who is so useless that we may as well delete the win from Wilder's record" bullet train to Shutupville?

I don't particularly rate the guy, but c'mon - give him a bit of credit. Stiverne was viewed as a big step up in class and he got smacked silly by Wilder in a genuine 50-50 matchup as most were calling it beforehand.

Lets not get upset because the majority of people are now picking Wilder to smack the traveller around for a couple of rounds before humiliating him with 4 knockdowns in the 3rd before putting his head in to row 10

I picked Wilder to win then changed my mind watching the weigh-in. I even said at the time I was breaking my own rule of never changing my mind. Anyway I thought there would definitely be a KO so got that wrong.

Stiverne it has to be said performed poorly on the night and admitted this after the fight.

Wilder would be favourite to beat Fury because of his power and Fury's record on hitting the deck. As a booking match I think they are well matched and both at similar stages in their development. Neither is the finished article which is why Wlad jobs both.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

trottb wrote:You'd have to imagine that at times he is pushing himself hard enough in training for it to be noticeable.

It probably happened in the fight......It's a very fast acting condition..

It would certainly explain the lackluster performance. So is it something that comes and goes through training/working too hard/can it be worked around or does this look like the end for Stiverne at the top level?

Sounds like a conveniently serious condition for Stiverne to be suddenly diagnosed with. Hey, it's no broken toe, but then again, I'm no medical expert.

Wouldn't bet my house on Wlad...........If you watch his last fight he was rocked by a jab before he put the useless jerk down seconds later..

Wlad comes in on straight lines....You don't need a compass to find him.............Lewis would kill him in two !!

Hopefully Fury lands a big one..

Maybe for once a guy had a legitimate reason to back up his performance... Though the causes could me innocent or self inflicted.

Prognosis depends on any/level of kidney damage I believe

milkyboy wrote:Maybe for once a guy had a legitimate reason to back up his performance... Though the causes could me innocent or self inflicted.

Prognosis depends on any/level of kidney damage I believe

It knackered him out...Giving Wilder a silent beating !!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He's been diagnosed with Rhabdomyolysis...............It's a muscle injury that affects the blood and causes the body to heat up more than is good for you...Leading to severe dehydration !!

So anyone questioning this guy's professionalism........Give him an apology..

Happy to give him an apology, know absolutely nothing about Rhabdomyolysis, had never heard of it. Its just nowadays there seems to be so many reasons or excuses for poor performances from champions, in an age where we are told there is better nutrition, better training methods and better recovery methods, so many are under performing due to over training, bad training camp, wrong gloves, wrong socks etc its no wonder we are sceptical at times and perhaps a little harsh.