Stiverne-Wilder for the WBC Heavy Title. Who Takes It?

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WBC champ Bermaine Stiverne & No 1 challenger & KO artist Deontay Wilder clash this weekend in Las Vegas.

Neither are particularly tested at the top level, with pretty much Stiverne's top level fight other than Lumbering Nipple Cris Arreola was a bit of a struggle against Ray Austin, who was about 96 at the time. Wilder on the other hand is crude and untested with massive power but there is a question mark over his chin as he's been all over queer street in some early videos when he's actually been hit. Wilder has height and speed, and Stiverne is tough, solid and is more experienced. It is an intriguing match up. Stiverne's 36, Wilder is 29 and a potentially very exciting fighter, but could turn into the US version of David Price.

At the moment Wilder is the betting favourite; however, I have this nagging doubt about what Wilder would do when tagged with a half decent shot. I think this fight has excitement written or over it. I doubt very much that it will go 12. Wilder seems to only know one way to fight and that is to bulldoze his opponent from the get-go and wing fast hard punches from all angles to get them out of there. Most of his opponents have been overwhelmed by power and speed, but he hasn't faced anyone who has obviously come to fight. I see Stiverne going down under an early onslaught but getting up to weather the storm. He'll make Wilder miss and take him out by round 5. Which, in all likelihood, means a 1st KO for Wilder.

Don King is petitioning a rematch with WBC following, not needed.

Not really surprised to be honest, both at stiverne being a little bit off and Don King pulling something like this. bumhole

Classic King. What a bell end.

Was almost a shut-out, think I gave Stiv a generous 4 rounds, 3 probably more realistic.

Aye I gave him 3 for certain and 1 scraped

TopHat24/7 wrote:Classic King.  What a bell end.

Was almost a shut-out, think I gave Stiv a generous 4 rounds, 3 probably more realistic.

Yeah what a jerk......Doing what is in his and his Boxer's interests !!

I'd hate to have a Promoter like that !!

You certain it's Rhabdo? Rhabdo is a rather serious condition. Can't think he's in a position to be demanding remaches if he has it. A noticeable proportion of people who have rhabdo never return to the gym after getting it. Incredibly rare condition, but it must be said as a rule you have to be neglectful to a fault to actually catch it. That or do crossfit.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Wouldn't bet my house on Wlad...........If you watch his last fight he was rocked by a jab before he put the useless jerk down seconds later..

Wlad comes in on straight lines....You don't need a compass to find him.............Lewis would kill him in two !!

Hopefully Fury lands a big one..

Why not? If he loses, your father-in-law will always buy you another one

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Classic King.  What a bell end.

Was almost a shut-out, think I gave Stiv a generous 4 rounds, 3 probably more realistic.

Yeah what a jerk......Doing what is in his and his Boxer's interests !!

I'd hate to have a Promoter like that !!

Yeh, you probably still believe his 'long count' BS too....

Yep, because if there's one pomoter who is known for caring about his fighters and their interests, it's ol' Don!

King has always had a cosy relationship with the WBC albeit it's dimmed over the past decade or so, so I wouldn't be totally shocked if he somehow got his wish here. Unless Stiverne suddenly becomes much better at cutting the ring off then it's hard to see how he'd win a return....But this was King's only world champion, I believe, so he's naturally going to try anything he can to get his man back in the frame.

Poor old Don. Once upon a time he could boast a stable including Tyson, Chavez, Trinidad, Norris, Ricardo Lopez, Randall and Nelson. Now in the last few years he's had to make do with Stiverne and Tavoris Cloud. Ouch.

As a side note, did anyone else see everyone's favourite boxing / gambling YouTuber's prediction for this fight? "To make money on this fight, you've got to bet on Stiverne to win, hedged with Wilder by KO." Classic Dwyer.

Has Dwyer got any right in the last 5 years? He just seems to back the underdog. And yes, backing both by early KO cost me a few pennies but every man and his dog was down for the KO.

Yeh, never saw Wilder UD coming in a month of Sundays!!

Odds were something crazy on that.

I quite like Dwyer, Coxy. There's something strangely endearing about his weird, dead-pan delivery, dramatic pauses and sometimes crazy-sounding theories.

Thing is, he tends to either be really, really right or really, really wrong. He has called some big upsets in the last few years which, if you follow his gambling advice, would have made you a pretty penny; Cotto-Margarito I, Cotto-Trout, Price-Thompson I (he got a load of stick for picking Thompson there!), Chambers-Mchunu etc. His prediction for how the Donaire-Rigondeaux fight would pan out from a styles point of view was crystal ball kind of stuff, too.

But his overall gambling ideas seem a bit crazy to me, albeit I basically never gamble and don't pretend to understand it inside out. He stradles basically everything. If Wlad was fighting Audley he'd tell you to bet on Wlad by early KO but to hedge the play with Audley by decision. I ignore all that stuff really and just focus on his take on the fighers from a technical / styles point of view, where he can be quite interesting if a bit guilty of over-thinking things. I appreciate that Stiverne-Wilder was a hard one to call, but he basically implied that the idea of Wilder winning on points was some kind of joke!

TopHat24/7 wrote:Yeh, never saw Wilder UD coming in a month of Sundays!!

Odds were something crazy on that.

Talking of odds and wildly off topic, have just seen that groves is a 5/4 underdog against Anthony Dirrell?!??! This is a guy who had a SD against the shockingly Poopie Bika ffs!!

Everyone, put your house on this baby! Mortgage will get paid off early, might even be able to afford yourselves a second hand Ferrari 360 or something!

#guaranteed

That's if the fight happens of course

People forget that Bika is the only guy who has really extended Ward and ran him close since Ward has been at championship level, Coxy. He was also unlucky to only be given a draw in that first Dirrell fight, for me - I thought he won it by a couple of rounds, as did most others from memory. He's no great shakes and you'll be hard pressed to find any fight of his that you'd like to revisit, but he can fight a bit. Calzaghe didn't exactly brush by him with ease, either.

Don't like Bika's style at all but Dirrell beating him isn't to be sniffed at, especially considering that Bika was the better man in their first fight.

Groves looked awful against Douglin and workmanlike against Rebrasse, so I'm not surprised that the bookies have him as a marginal underdog. Until he gives a performance which shows otherwise, it's fair enough to suggest that the Froch setbacks might have taken something out of him or blunted his confidence, even if he doesn't show it. Certainly in his last two fights he hasn't had that same speed, upper-body movement / reflexes and nasty intent on show which saw him almost shock us all against Froch first time out and box well for seven and a half rounds in the rematch before getting caught with that devastating shot.

I think Groves needs to be very, very careful, because another defeat in a title fight right now could set him back a long, long way. To me, in all aspects, he's just looked a bit worn out in recent months, both inside and outside the ring. I don't think his ego will allow it because he's desperate not to let his big rival Degale beat him to that first world title, but if I were him I'd take a few months off, have a fight mid-year against a decent contender which he can prepare properly and be totally fresh for and then target Dirrell for the WBC belt at the back end of 2015. If he goes for Dirrell in March / April like he's talking about then I don't think he'd be giving himself the best chance of victory.

Yeh it's an interesting one. If he fights a soft opponent he treads water, if he fights a contender he risks defeat. From a business perspective he  should take any title shot that comes his way... And dirrell is very beatable, but groves hasn't  looked his best of late. Confidence? fatigue? Also, not impossible that he's just not as good as people think and that froch suited him a bit stylistically?

That last point of yours is a sobering one, milky. Could it be that Groves just had Froch's number to a certain extent in terms of style and skill (but obviously not in toughness or durability) and that the first fight flattered him a little (appreciate that, to some, the first one comes with the caveat that Froch took him lightly but I thought Groves had the better of the rematch, albeit marginally, before he got flattened)? If he doesn't put in a dominant, classy performance again soon then you're probably right in the sense that a lot more people will start asking that.

I'd still give him the benefit of the doubt in that respect for the time being, though. As a talent I still think Groves is the real deal. You could argue that Froch was also a pretty good fit for Taylor and Ward's styles, but neither of them shook, landed as many clean shots on or were able to get on the front foot against Froch as consistently as Groves was doing for six or seven rounds in that first fight. If Groves' performances against Rebrasse and Douglin were typical of the kind of form he showed before the Froch fights then I'd be more inclined to consider the possibility you've raised, but collectively Glen Johnson (even aged 43) and Gonzalez are probably a cut above Rebrasse and Douglin - but Groves looked really good in those fights before the Froch saga.

I suppose that's why I believe he's a little burnt out more than anything at the moment. Nobody else seemed to comment on it so it could just be me talking cobblers, but even when he was on Ringside a couple of months or so back with Degale, I thought he looked almost ill and quite dishevelled, as if he'd been dragged there backwards through a hedge having not slept a wink for the previous couple of nights. Everything about him just seems a bit off at the moment, for me. Not sure it's the wisest thing to be extending his hand in to managing at the moment, given that his own career could be at a potential make or break point, and I'd like to see how he looks after a bit of time away from all that stuff and the media appearances.

I think the Froch setbacks might have taken a bit more out of him than he'd have us believe. Did have to laugh at one of his interviews a few days before facing Douglin, though (almost verbatim, and I'm sure some others saw it). "Froch is old and ****, he got lucky against me twice and he knows it. In ten years I'll look back on it and be disgusted with myself that I ever let him beat me, but right now I'm not thinking about it because if or when I get that third fight, I'll knock him out. He won't even land a ******* punch! But if I was him I'd be thinking, 'I've already got lucky against this guy twice, I'll definitely swerve a third fight.' But I can't wait to bash him up."

Think Groves is going for the panto villain approach in terms of trying to goad Froch in to giving him another crack! Don't think it'll work, mind you.

Thing is Chris, with Froch fast running out of options (read - turning down fights) there's every possibility that the British public/part-timers who go to "be part of history) would bite Eddie's hand off for a third installment.

Don't be surprised if suddenly Groves name rears it head once again and Froch starts making noise about wanting to finally shut him up (despite having done it last year apparently). You'll know than that there's no other fight out there for Froch and then Groves' form won't mean a damn when he can sell another fight with his mouth.

Might actually be good for Groves especially if there's a big build up to the fight as it gives him time to recharge his batteries

Yeh, I 'm not saying I think that Chris, just floating it as a maybe. He needs to up his game that's for sure.

In hindsight, I think Groves lucked out in the first despite the result. His all attack approach kept froch off his balance so he couldnt generate enough power to hurt him until he got tired. In the second George played off the back foot and gave froch all the time in the world to throw power shots and someone so tuned up after fighting at a constantly high level was going to flatten him at any opportunity. Thus I think he was shown his own limitations in the first fight and adjusted it to compensate for his stamina in the second...might have broken him in a way that a single defeat wouldn't. He might know that he was spent in the first fight, especially given the change of pace in the second so it might just be that instead of being burnt out he's lost something crucial in his confidence and or his will to win.

Just can't see it myself, Dave. Despite the actual results, on the basis of the action they've shared I still believe it's perfectly possible that Groves could beat Froch on his day - but that's probably a minority view now. There's no way a third fight between them could be anything other than smaller and less anticipated than the second. Froch didn't initially seem all that keen to fight him a second time when every fan in Britain was demanding it - don't see why he'd feel compelled or be talked in to fighting him for a third time when he's already beaten him with no excuses or mitigating circumstances at Wembley and now that there's so much less demand.

Perfectly understandable and to tell the truth, if I was Froch I'd consider that business settled now as well. Nothing can change the fact that Groves was hard done by first time out, but the best thing Froch could do on his own part was give him a rematch to ensure the saga ended with some positive light being shone on it and win it properly, which he did. He's got an ego on him alright so no doubt Groves' goading and 'disrespect' will annoy him a little, but not as much as being 0-2 down will annoy Groves, I bet. If Froch was a few years younger then maybe, but knowing that he's so close to retirement (even though he's alluded to maybe staying on a little longer than initially planned) I can't see enough in a third Groves fight to make him consider it.

Suspect Groves was lacking a bit of motivation in his last two fights since Froch. I mean he hasn't had a chance to be on TV a lot making stupidly retarded comments and as the exposure hasn't been on him probably went off the boil a little bit.

Would like to think if he turns up with his head on his wins a one-sided decision against Dirrell, who I view as being shockingly average. Then expect Degale v Groves II, at which point I'll be at a massive crossroads.. Cheered for gingernuts in their first fight but went really sour on him in the build up to the second fight with Froch. That and he had the temerity to flatten our immortal hero in the first round of the first fight causing Jim Watt to spout all sorts of Poopie for the next few rounds, the amount of said spouting almost drove me to a mental breakdown.

Degale and Grove should focus on getting alphabet belts and then face off against each other again in a big-ish domestic clash.

88Chris05 wrote:Just can't see it myself, Dave. Despite the actual results, on the basis of the action they've shared I still believe it's perfectly possible that Groves could beat Froch on his day - but that's probably a minority view now. There's no way a third fight between them could be anything other than smaller and less anticipated than the second. Froch didn't initially seem all that keen to fight him a second time when every fan in Britain was demanding it - don't see why he'd feel compelled or be talked in to fighting him for a third time when he's already beaten him with no excuses or mitigating circumstances at Wembley and now that there's so much less demand.

Perfectly understandable and to tell the truth, if I was Froch I'd consider that business settled now as well. Nothing can change the fact that Groves was hard done by first time out, but the best thing Froch could do on his own part was give him a rematch to ensure the saga ended with some positive light being shone on it and win it properly, which he did. He's got an ego on him alright so no doubt Groves' goading and 'disrespect' will annoy him a little, but not as much as being 0-2 down will annoy Groves, I bet. If Froch was a few years younger then maybe, but knowing that he's so close to retirement (even though he's alluded to maybe staying on a little longer than initially planned) I can't see enough in a third Groves fight to make him consider it.

You and me baby, you and me!

If they fought a third time and if I was Groves, I'd ask for a ring that was, this time round, bigger that you average shower cubicle.

DAVE667 wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Just can't see it myself, Dave. Despite the actual results, on the basis of the action they've shared I still believe it's perfectly possible that Groves could beat Froch on his day - but that's probably a minority view now. There's no way a third fight between them could be anything other than smaller and less anticipated than the second. Froch didn't initially seem all that keen to fight him a second time when every fan in Britain was demanding it - don't see why he'd feel compelled or be talked in to fighting him for a third time when he's already beaten him with no excuses or mitigating circumstances at Wembley and now that there's so much less demand.

Perfectly understandable and to tell the truth, if I was Froch I'd consider that business settled now as well. Nothing can change the fact that Groves was hard done by first time out, but the best thing Froch could do on his own part was give him a rematch to ensure the saga ended with some positive light being shone on it and win it properly, which he did. He's got an ego on him alright so no doubt Groves' goading and 'disrespect' will annoy him a little, but not as much as being 0-2 down will annoy Groves, I bet. If Froch was a few years younger then maybe, but knowing that he's so close to retirement (even though he's alluded to maybe staying on a little longer than initially planned) I can't see enough in a third Groves fight to make him consider it.

You and me baby, you and me!

If they fought a third time and if I was Groves, I'd ask for a ring that was, this time round, bigger that you average shower cubicle.

So next time he could get flattened in the center of the ring rather than get flattened with his backs against the ropes?

Coxy001 wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

88Chris05 wrote:Just can't see it myself, Dave. Despite the actual results, on the basis of the action they've shared I still believe it's perfectly possible that Groves could beat Froch on his day - but that's probably a minority view now. There's no way a third fight between them could be anything other than smaller and less anticipated than the second. Froch didn't initially seem all that keen to fight him a second time when every fan in Britain was demanding it - don't see why he'd feel compelled or be talked in to fighting him for a third time when he's already beaten him with no excuses or mitigating circumstances at Wembley and now that there's so much less demand.

Perfectly understandable and to tell the truth, if I was Froch I'd consider that business settled now as well. Nothing can change the fact that Groves was hard done by first time out, but the best thing Froch could do on his own part was give him a rematch to ensure the saga ended with some positive light being shone on it and win it properly, which he did. He's got an ego on him alright so no doubt Groves' goading and 'disrespect' will annoy him a little, but not as much as being 0-2 down will annoy Groves, I bet. If Froch was a few years younger then maybe, but knowing that he's so close to retirement (even though he's alluded to maybe staying on a little longer than initially planned) I can't see enough in a third Groves fight to make him consider it.

You and me baby, you and me!

If they fought a third time and if I was Groves, I'd ask for a ring that was, this time round, bigger that you average shower cubicle.

So next time he could get flattened in the center of the ring rather than get flattened with his backs against the ropes?

He has more than one back?