6N Round 1: France v Scotland, 7 February

First topic message reminder :

     
FRANCE v SCOTLAND
Saturday 7 February 2015
KO 17:00 (GMT)/18:00 (local)
Stade de France, Paris

Live on BBC1.

Referee: Nigel Owens (WRU)
Touch Judge 1: Glen Jackson (NZR)
Touch Judge 2: Mike Fraser (NZR)
TMO: George Ayoub (ARU)

A. Teams:

1. France

15 Scott Spedding (Bayonne)
14 Yoann Huget (Toulouse)
13 Mathieu Bastareaud (Toulon)
12 Wesley Fofana (Clermont)
11 Teddy Thomas (Racing Metro)
10 Camille Lopez (Clermont)
09 Rory Kockott (Castres)

01 Alexandre Menini (Toulon)
02 Guilhem Guirado (Toulon)
03 Rabah Slimani (Stade Francais)
04 Pascal Papé (Stade Francais)
05 Yoann Maestri (Toulouse)
06 Thierry Dusautoir (c) (Toulouse)
07 Bernard Le Roux (Racing Metro)
08 Damien Chouly (Clermont )

16 Benjamin Kayser (Clermont)
17 Uini Atonio (La Rochelle)
18 Eddy Ben Arous (Racing Metro)
19 Romain Taofifenua (Toulon)
20 Loann Goujon (La Rochelle)
21 Morgan Parra (Clermont)
22 Rémi Talès (Castres)
23 Rémi Lamerat (Castres)

2. Scotland

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)
14 Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors)
13 Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors)
12 Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors)
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby)
10 Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors)
9 Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN (Gloucester)

1 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby)
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby)
3 Euan Murray (Glasgow Warriors)
4 Richie Gray (Castres)
5 Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors)
6 Rob Harley (Glasgow Warriors)
7 Blair Cowan (London Irish)
8 Johnnie Beattie (Castres)

16 Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors)
17 Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors)
18 Geoff Cross (London Irish)
19 Jim Hamilton (Saracens)
20 Alasdair Strokosch (USA Perpignan)
21 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne (Edinburgh Rugby)
22 Peter Horne (Glasgow Warriors)
23 Dougie Fife (Edinburgh Rugby)

B. Tournament Form (last 3 games):

1. France

15/3/14 - France 20 - 22 Ireland

8/3/14 - Scotland 17 - 19 France

21/2/14 - Wales 27 - 6 France

2. Scotland

15/3/14 - Wales 51 - 3 Scotland

8/3/14 - Scotland 17 - 19 France

22/2/14 - Italy 20 - 21 Scotland

C. Head to Head:

87 Played 87
50 Wins 34
34 Losses 50
3 Draws 3
153 Tries 132
78 Conversions 70
119 Penalties 127
28 Drop Goals 15
1,228 Points 1,049

What's his form like of late? He hasn't really been all that noticeable.

Just in case non-Scots posters are confused:

    

      Ryan Grant                 A criminal lunatic

A fit and fired up Ryan Grant with a point to prove is not something we can ignore, he was proven not guilty in a court of law.

I think Grant's form has been pretty good this season, definitely an improvement on last year, has he not won a couple MoMs?  Probably not at his pre-Lions tour best yet but hopefully with the court case behind him he can push on.

I think Ryan Grant will be a good addition to the squad. I think he is coming into some form after a slow recovery from injury. Maybe he was carrying it for most of last season, he did not seem quite the player of the previous year. I can see him being on the bench with Dickinson starting. I would have him ahead of Gordon Reid.

Prothero wrote:A fit and fired up Ryan Grant with a point to prove is not something we can ignore, he was proven not guilty in a court of law.

Is 'not proven' the same as 'not guilty?

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Prothero wrote:A fit and fired up Ryan Grant with a point to prove is not something we can ignore, he was proven not guilty in a court of law.

Is 'not proven' the same as 'not guilty?

Semantics, in this context one is as good as the other.

I know, just being pedantic!

OK late to the party, but I'd like to see;

Dickinson Ford Murray (Cross close 2nd)
Gray Gray (would have Gilchrist over Ritchie if fit)
Harley Beattie Cowan
Greeg (C) Russell
Visser Dunbar Bennett Seymour
Hogg

Bench
Grant, a second rate hooker, Cross
Toolis Watson
Pyrgos Tonks AN other

Anyone ever been to the Stade de France. I am going for the first time with my brother and dad, who is 80 now and does not cope brilliantly with climbing stairs these days. I am hoping it is a fairly user friendly, as most modern stadiums are, environment.

Either way it is going to be quite a trip and we are all really looking forward to it. I think it is going to be really close, getting the French first up is always my preference.

Never been, passed it a few times on the train, I'm sure as a modern stadium it will be very user friendly.

BigGee wrote:Anyone ever been to the Stade de France. I am going for the first time with my brother and dad, who is 80 now and does not cope brilliantly with climbing stairs these days. I am hoping it is a fairly user friendly, as most modern stadiums are, environment.

Either way it is going to be quite a trip and we are all really looking forward to it. I think it is going to be really close, getting the French first up is always my preference.

Hate to say this, but my dad has been before and he says its the complete opposite of user friendly. I I think the stadium isn't too bad, but getting to and particularly from the stadium is apparently a nightmare. They had to stand in a mass of people for an hour and a half waiting on a train bank into central Paris because everyone else is going there from the same station.

So probably aim to get there early to avoid the crowds, and I'm not sure what to suggest for getting home!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

BigGee wrote:Anyone ever been to the Stade de France. I am going for the first time with my brother and dad, who is 80 now and does not cope brilliantly with climbing stairs these days. I am hoping it is a fairly user friendly, as most modern stadiums are, environment.

Either way it is going to be quite a trip and we are all really looking forward to it. I think it is going to be really close, getting the French first up is always my preference.

Hate to say this, but my dad has been before and he says its the complete opposite of user friendly. I I think the stadium isn't too bad, but getting to and particularly from the stadium is apparently a nightmare. They had to stand in a mass of people for an hour and a half waiting on a train bank into central Paris because everyone else is  going there from the same station.

So probably aim to get there early to avoid the crowds, and I'm not sure what to suggest for getting home!

Thanks for that. I was kind of anticipating a problem with the stadium emptying out, there really is no easy way for 80,000 people to disperse at the end of the day. I think we will just sit tight for a while and hopefully let the crowds dissipate. We are actually meeting up with a French friend as well, who used to live in Paris. so may have some useful local knowledge. There are never really any easy options though when you are going with an 80 year old who can't walk very far or fast. This may well be the last chance for us to do something like this with him, so we did not want to pass it up. We may well just have to work it out as we go along.

Well I wish you the best and hope you all have a great time!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Well I wish you the best and hope you all have a great time!

Thanks, I am sure it will be an adventure, hopefully capped by a Scottish victory!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Prothero wrote:A fit and fired up Ryan Grant with a point to prove is not something we can ignore, he was proven not guilty in a court of law.

Is 'not proven' the same as 'not guilty?

No. it means we ain't sure you didn't do it .

As opposed to we are sure u didn't do it = not guilty

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Prothero wrote:A fit and fired up Ryan Grant with a point to prove is not something we can ignore, he was proven not guilty in a court of law.

Is 'not proven' the same as 'not guilty?

Actually, GC will correct me if I get this totally wrong, not proven is one of those anomalies of Scottish law which means "we know you did it but we just can't prove it enough to bang you up". It most certainly does not mean innocent.
As in ; does McVisser attend tackling practice wearing a pink tutu and killer heels? Not proven m'lud.

jimbopip wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Prothero wrote:A fit and fired up Ryan Grant with a point to prove is not something we can ignore, he was proven not guilty in a court of law.

Is 'not proven' the same as 'not guilty?

Actually, GC will correct me if I get this totally wrong,  not proven is one of those anomalies of Scottish law which means "we know you did it but we just can't prove it enough to bang you up". It most certainly does not mean innocent.
As in ; does McVisser attend tackling practice wearing a pink tutu and killer heels? Not proven m'lud.

Yes, it's a very unwelcome quirk of Scots law and famously referred to by Sir Walter Scott as "that b@stard verdict".

Does not vindicate victim or accused.

The sad fact is even if Mr Grant is guilty, Im not sure that should prohibit him from playing. We don't have enough Quality Scottish born players to be leaving players out over a drunken scuffle on a rugby boys night out.

Hopefully Ryan Wilson will be given a Stern Public Rebuke sent away to lick his wounds and will be available for selection (form dependent) after the World cup.

I'm sure there are many offenses where i would want to see them hung drawn and quartered never to wear the dark blue of Scotland again but that isn't one. Drunken Scuffles will happen When you put a large Group of fit young men together and add alcohol that's just the reality.

BigGee wrote:Anyone ever been to the Stade de France. I am going for the first time with my brother and dad, who is 80 now and does not cope brilliantly with climbing stairs these days. I am hoping it is a fairly user friendly, as most modern stadiums are, environment.

Either way it is going to be quite a trip and we are all really looking forward to it. I think it is going to be really close, getting the French first up is always my preference.

Been several times and it's really not all that user friendly. Fair walk from the train station to the stadium, well if you're 80, not so bad if you're not.  The toilets quickly become a lake and there are quite a few steps. Plus we've always been horsed when I've been there, but that's a side issue.  Still a cracking stadium though,  but I'd recommend avoiding the toilets.

EWT Spoons wrote:

BigGee wrote:Anyone ever been to the Stade de France. I am going for the first time with my brother and dad, who is 80 now and does not cope brilliantly with climbing stairs these days. I am hoping it is a fairly user friendly, as most modern stadiums are, environment.

Either way it is going to be quite a trip and we are all really looking forward to it. I think it is going to be really close, getting the French first up is always my preference.

Been several times and it's really not all that user friendly. Fair walk from the train station to the stadium, well if you're 80, not so bad if you're not.  The toilets quickly become a lake and there are quite a few steps. Plus we've always been horsed when I've been there, but that's a side issue.  Still a cracking stadium though,  but I'd recommend avoiding the toilets.

Better keep our wine and beer intake down then!

Don't know if you've been to Paris before, but best stick to the wine - beer ain't cheap!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Don't know if you've been to Paris before, but best stick to the wine - beer ain't cheap!

Fortunately I am equally happy drinking both! France is an amazing place though, you can get beer at McDonalds! It made taking the kids there a lot more pleasant than it usually is! The euro seems to have improved somewhat since I was last there, largely thanks to the Greeks I imagine.

Yeah you get 20% more with your pound now
On the SDF subject, getting in is ok. Walk from the rer station is a around 10 to 20 minutes (depending what side your seats are). Getting out is a pain but still better than the slow zombie walk you get out of twivkenham. You can have a drink in one of the bars outside as well. Not going this time but expect to be really cold with temperature below zero normal (specially with the wind at night).

Oh and dont buy the beer they sell you around the stadium. That's daylight robbery!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Prothero wrote:A fit and fired up Ryan Grant with a point to prove is not something we can ignore, he was proven not guilty in a court of law.

Is 'not proven' the same as 'not guilty?

No. Scots courts have 3 possible verdicts, Guilty, not guilty and not proven. Not proven is not the same as not guilty. Not proven is actually a fairly damming verdict - its means we think the did it but we don't have enough evidence

Prothero wrote:The sad fact is even if Mr Grant is guilty, Im not sure that should prohibit him from playing. We don't have enough Quality Scottish born players to be leaving players out over a drunken scuffle on a rugby boys night out.

Hopefully Ryan Wilson will be given a Stern Public Rebuke sent away to lick his wounds and will be available for selection (form dependent) after the World cup.

I'm sure there are many offenses where i would want to see them hung drawn and quartered never to wear the dark blue of Scotland again but that isn't one. Drunken Scuffles will happen When you put a large Group of fit young men together and add alcohol that's just the reality.

The quality and availability of players should make no difference to the sanction and it was rather more than a drunken scuffle - it was a full blown assault

TJ wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Prothero wrote:A fit and fired up Ryan Grant with a point to prove is not something we can ignore, he was proven not guilty in a court of law.

Is 'not proven' the same as 'not guilty?

No. Scots courts have 3 possible verdicts, Guilty, not guilty and not proven.  Not proven is not the same as not guilty. Not proven is actually a fairly damming verdict - its means we think the did it but we don't have enough evidence

Aye, that's what I was getting at!

Sounds like everyone has got off very lightly, except poor Mr Maclay who had to have his face rebuilt.

In other news, I suspect the team announcement will be Wednesday - that's when it usually is.

Did he seriously need facial reconstruction?

EWT Spoons wrote:

BigGee wrote:Anyone ever been to the Stade de France. I am going for the first time with my brother and dad, who is 80 now and does not cope brilliantly with climbing stairs these days. I am hoping it is a fairly user friendly, as most modern stadiums are, environment.

Either way it is going to be quite a trip and we are all really looking forward to it. I think it is going to be really close, getting the French first up is always my preference.

Been several times and it's really not all that user friendly. Fair walk from the train station to the stadium, well if you're 80, not so bad if you're not.  The toilets quickly become a lake and there are quite a few steps. Plus we've always been horsed when I've been there, but that's a side issue.  Still a cracking stadium though,  but I'd recommend avoiding the toilets.

would a taxi be able to get you at the station and take you to the stadium?

Also, would a wee manual wheelchair be an option or would your dad's pride be a problem?

I have to take my old man fishing these days. He's totally able to drive about, walk about, and stand in a river fishing, but he can't bend down enough to get his waders off at the end of the day! Bless him!

Maybe if you just aim to get there in plenty of time and just go up x amount of stairs and have a rest for a few minutes, then some more and so on.

Could you email the stadium and ask for some lower seats?

Dickinson should start with Bane on the bench. Dickinson has been playing very well and merits the start on openside. His man shaming of Rev Murry cements his place and also means Cross has to start against what will be a powerful French front row.

Centers is a great contest and for once we have a selection dilemma relating skill as opposed to lack thereof.

Radges XXIII:

1. Dickinson
2. Ford
3. Cross
4. Gray
5. Gray
6. Brown Strokosch
7. Cowan
8. Beattie

9. Laidlaw
10. Russell
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Bennett
14. Seymore
15. Hogg

16. Brown
17. Murray
18. Grant
19. Toolis
20. Watson
21. SHC
22. Dunbar
23. Tonks

Flankers are clearly an issue.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Dickinson should start with Bane on the bench. Dickinson has been playing very well and merits the start on openside. His man shaming of Rev Murry cements his place and also means Cross has to start against what will be a powerful French front row.

Centers is a great contest and for once we have a selection dilemma relating skill as opposed to lack thereof.

Radges XXIII:

1. Dickinson
2. Ford
3. Cross
4. Gray
5. Gray
6. Brown Strokosch
7. Cowan
8. Beattie

9. Laidlaw
10. Russell
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Bennett
14. Seymore
15. Hogg

16. Brown
17. Murray
18. Grant
19. Toolis
20. Watson
21. SHC
22. Dunbar
23. Tonks

Flankers are clearly an issue.

A reasonable team Radge. My main issue is in the centres. Dunbar-Bennett are in form and playing well together. Matt Scott (12) is not in form at the moment. Do we drop Dunbar, arguably the in form 12 in the NH, for Scott? If we did that have Scott and Bennett played an international together? Or drop Bennett and move Dunbar to 13? I think Jamesie Cotter rates Bennett, also Bennett's time at Clermont may mean he is unlikely to be overawed by playing in SDF. If Dunbar is fit then I think it's the Glasgow pairing.
Conversely, on form the MFL front row must start.
Bench cover for flankers looks horrendous: Kellybrows come home.
I've got a feeling Schlong will bench rather than Scott as he would cover wing and centre.

Scott hasn't been great. But he hasn't been playing at 12 either. Thats something for Solomans to sort out but he's never played badly for Scotland at 12.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Scott hasn't been great. But he hasn't been playing at 12 either.

Radge, do you think those two facts are connected?

I am sure Shlong will bench - he has the photos of all the coaches in compromising positions

jimbopip wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Scott hasn't been great. But he hasn't been playing at 12 either.

Radge, do you think those two facts are connected?

Yes.

Kelly Brows did a job for us at 7 when he was picked there by that lunatic Australian but he has been excellent, trully excellent for Sarries at 6.

Denton does a job at 6 but is a better number 8. Laidlaw does ok at 10 but is a better 9.

Do I need to go on?

I'm not a back and would never profess to be one or have intimate knowledge of what goes on there. However I imagine there are differences between inside center and outside center. NDL was rancid at 12 but played well at 13 for instance.

Have no issues with a lot of Radge's team.

It's amazing how much happier I would be knowing that Rob Harley is in that 6 shirt instead of the glacially slow bald nutter. He doesn't even have a Twitter account, so we can't even coerce RDW into asking him how he is feeling.

Do disagree about the centres, through. It's Dunbar plus Dunbar's Mate at the moment and the familiarity of the two Glasgow players (with Russell feeding them and hopefully Hogg dropping high balls behind them) is enough to convince me that the pairing should be Dunbar-Bennett. Scott has been fine since he returned, but there's no way he's back to his past glories - Hurley has looked hungrier and more inventive in the middle than he has recently and I don't like that.

What I cannot accept is why do we have a back row crisis and some great back row players sitting watching on telly?

Centres - we have 3 class centres and I would be happy with any two of them really.

Like I said Scott isn't being given a crack at his prefered position though. Granted that's an internal Edinburgh issue.

I have no problems starting Dunbar and Bennett though. It's certainly a more comfortable position to be in compared to the choises that have to be made in the backrow.

The exclusion of Barclay and Brown in particular look more baffling by the day.

George Carlin wrote:Just in case non-Scots posters are confused:

    

      Ryan Grant                 A criminal lunatic

on another note if the meeting Ryan Grant and Vern Cotter didn't go like this I would be disappointed.

Big Vern : I'm disapointed in you, we pay you to play rugby.

Grant :

on an unrelated matter:

Why wasn't Mossy in the New Years' honours list?

Apparently, someone from the Scotsman took this quick snap of the first meeting between Vern and Grant following the incident:

tigertattie wrote:on an unrelated matter:

Why wasn't Mossy in the New Years' honours list?

Because Sir Clive Woodward has not been publicly cleaning his rear orifice for the last decade and a half...

BigGee wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

BigGee wrote:Anyone ever been to the Stade de France. I am going for the first time with my brother and dad, who is 80 now and does not cope brilliantly with climbing stairs these days. I am hoping it is a fairly user friendly, as most modern stadiums are, environment.

Either way it is going to be quite a trip and we are all really looking forward to it. I think it is going to be really close, getting the French first up is always my preference.

Hate to say this, but my dad has been before and he says its the complete opposite of user friendly. I I think the stadium isn't too bad, but getting to and particularly from the stadium is apparently a nightmare. They had to stand in a mass of people for an hour and a half waiting on a train bank into central Paris because everyone else is  going there from the same station.

So probably aim to get there early to avoid the crowds, and I'm not sure what to suggest for getting home!

Thanks for that. I was kind of anticipating a problem with the stadium emptying out, there really is no easy way for 80,000 people to disperse at the end of the day. I think we will just sit tight for a while and hopefully let the crowds dissipate. We are actually meeting up with a French friend as well, who used to live in Paris. so may have some useful local knowledge. There are never really any easy options though when you are going with an 80 year old who can't walk very far or fast. This may well be the last chance for us to do something like this with him, so we did not want to pass it up. We may well just have to work it out as we go along.

BG, the worst part is queuing up after the game but there are a couple of lifts for those who are disabled/impaired which you can walk right through to. Would be worth asking the stewards there who I'm sure would escort you through. However it's a bl00dy free-for-all trying to get on the train. Perhaps waiting an hour or so might help and there are plenty of food and beer stalls around the place.

I think that we're missing the key question of this first round of matches.

And that question is: why does the French matchday shirt look like pyjamas made out of Play Doh?


I don't wish to be too remiss about it.

But it looks like it smells like stale farts and pee.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Just in case non-Scots posters are confused:

    

      Ryan Grant                 A criminal lunatic

on another note if the meeting Ryan Grant and Vern Cotter didn't go like this I would be disappointed.

Big Vern : I'm disapointed in you, we pay you to play rugby.

Grant :

Actually I forgot Paterson already has an MBE and, despite carrying almost deity status when it comes to Scottish rugby, we can't expect more given his relative lack of measurable success due to playing in an era when Scotland and Scottish teams were not up to much.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

BigGee wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

BigGee wrote:Anyone ever been to the Stade de France. I am going for the first time with my brother and dad, who is 80 now and does not cope brilliantly with climbing stairs these days. I am hoping it is a fairly user friendly, as most modern stadiums are, environment.

Either way it is going to be quite a trip and we are all really looking forward to it. I think it is going to be really close, getting the French first up is always my preference.

Hate to say this, but my dad has been before and he says its the complete opposite of user friendly. I I think the stadium isn't too bad, but getting to and particularly from the stadium is apparently a nightmare. They had to stand in a mass of people for an hour and a half waiting on a train bank into central Paris because everyone else is  going there from the same station.

So probably aim to get there early to avoid the crowds, and I'm not sure what to suggest for getting home!

Thanks for that. I was kind of anticipating a problem with the stadium emptying out, there really is no easy way for 80,000 people to disperse at the end of the day. I think we will just sit tight for a while and hopefully let the crowds dissipate. We are actually meeting up with a French friend as well, who used to live in Paris. so may have some useful local knowledge. There are never really any easy options though when you are going with an 80 year old who can't walk very far or fast. This may well be the last chance for us to do something like this with him, so we did not want to pass it up. We may well just have to work it out as we go along.

BG, the worst part is queuing up after the game but there are a couple of lifts for those who are disabled/impaired which you can walk right through to. Would be worth asking the stewards there who I'm sure would escort you through. However it's a bl00dy free-for-all trying to get on the train. Perhaps waiting an hour or so might help and there are plenty of food and beer stalls around the place.

Thanks for all the advice guys. I think the sitting tight for an hour after the game and letting crowds die down will be the option to take. The old man should be fine as long as he is not rushed or crowded to much. It will be cold but I have told him to pack the LJ's, I might even invest in a pair myself!

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

BigGee wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

BigGee wrote:Anyone ever been to the Stade de France. I am going for the first time with my brother and dad, who is 80 now and does not cope brilliantly with climbing stairs these days. I am hoping it is a fairly user friendly, as most modern stadiums are, environment.

Either way it is going to be quite a trip and we are all really looking forward to it. I think it is going to be really close, getting the French first up is always my preference.

Hate to say this, but my dad has been before and he says its the complete opposite of user friendly. I I think the stadium isn't too bad, but getting to and particularly from the stadium is apparently a nightmare. They had to stand in a mass of people for an hour and a half waiting on a train bank into central Paris because everyone else is  going there from the same station.

So probably aim to get there early to avoid the crowds, and I'm not sure what to suggest for getting home!

Thanks for that. I was kind of anticipating a problem with the stadium emptying out, there really is no easy way for 80,000 people to disperse at the end of the day. I think we will just sit tight for a while and hopefully let the crowds dissipate. We are actually meeting up with a French friend as well, who used to live in Paris. so may have some useful local knowledge. There are never really any easy options though when you are going with an 80 year old who can't walk very far or fast. This may well be the last chance for us to do something like this with him, so we did not want to pass it up. We may well just have to work it out as we go along.

BG, the worst part is queuing up after the game but there are a couple of lifts for those who are disabled/impaired which you can walk right through to. Would be worth asking the stewards there who I'm sure would escort you through. However it's a bl00dy free-for-all trying to get on the train. Perhaps waiting an hour or so might help and there are plenty of food and beer stalls around the place.

Thanks for all the advice guys. I think the sitting tight for an hour after the game and letting crowds die down will be the option to take. The old man should be fine as long as he is not rushed or crowded to much. It will be cold but I have told him to pack the LJ's, I might even invest in a pair myself!