Wales v England - 6 February 2015 - Match thread

[BamBam]

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Wales v England
6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Kick off at 20.05

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (FFR)
AR1: Romain Poite (FFR)
AR2: Mathieu Raynal (FFR)
TMO: Simon McDowell (IRFU)

Live on BBC1

Wales

01. Gethin Jenkins
02. Richard Hibbard
03. Samson Lee
04. Alun Wyn Jones
05. Jake Ball
06. Dan Lydiate
07. Sam Warburton (c)
08. Toby Faletau

09. Rhys Webb
10. Dan Biggar
11. George North
12. Jamie Roberts
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Scott Baldwin
17. Paul James
18. Aaron Jarvis
19. Luke Charteris
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Mike Phillips
22. Rhys Preistland
23. Liam Williams

England

15. Mike Brown
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Luther Burrell
11. Jonny May
10. George Ford
09. Ben Youngs  

01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dan Cole
04. David Attwood
05. George Kruis
06. James Haskell
07. Chris Robshaw (captain)
08. Billy Vunipola

16. Tom Youngs
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Kieran Brookes
19. Tom Croft
20. Nick Easter
21. Richard Wigglesworth
22. Danny Cipriani
23. Billy Twelvetrees

[rainbow-warrior]

Thought some prime idiot would bring up the World Cup with in 2003 to compare things!!

Good job its not wendy ball eh hahaha

[rainbow-warrior]

WALES to unleash GatBall - again - or as Howley has just called it the 'unexpected'.
About as unexpected as the Spanish Inquisition.

The (almost) exact same players as last year, and a group of players who have pretty much played the same way for years. A bruising team who can muscle past many teams even when playing poorly, but who finally managed to limp over the line against SA to record their first win over a SANZAR team for a very long time. A team that can be devastating when they play at their best but rarely do. A team we beat last time out. Its probably little different from the team we beat in the opening Friday night fixture four years ago.

They may pull one or two new plays out of the bag, and they will have spells when they cause us heaps of problems, but for the bulk of the game it will be the same old style, and we know what we have to do to counter it. (Actually doing so is another matter, but we have managed it, and yes 2 years ago we utterly failed to do so).

There are lots of questions over how England will play, and how well the new combinations will click, but if (and its a huge IF) they do click I am cautiously optimistic.

I'd be a lot less optimistic if there were some signs (e.g. different players) in the Welsh squad that would indicate the presence of a plan B, or the ability to adapt and play a different game if needed, but the only signs of anything different is an indication that they will try and send North and Cuthbert through the middle a bit more.

Big yawns

[LordDowlais]

The (almost) exact same players as last year, and a group of players who have pretty much played the same way for years

To be fair we do have a different set of half backs this year, Rhys Webb plays an altogether different type of game that Mike Phillips like's to play, also Dan Biggar is so much more accurate and controlled than Preistland is. Perhaps we will see our massive centers and wingers used differently after all.

[lostinwales]

...

Of course an Englishman is the mastermind of the Welsh defence too....you owe most of your success to an Englishman - don't forget it.

You could say Englishmen but I guess we had better not go there

[TightHEAD]

Wales are huge favourites to win and win well.

So you keep saying.

What's wrong with saying that?

So you honestly think Wales will win well ?

Also, not aimed at you TightHead, but after this debate, I never want to hear about how great Englands strength in depth is again, if as everyone on here is saying, it is not as good as everyone thinks, then that can go forever.

I think Wales will tear England a new one to be honest, not that I think this England team is bad but for me there is just too many changes and unfamiliarity with the team for it to win in the MS on a cold Friday night. plus we are relying on Ford to make his kicks which is his major weakness.

[beshocked]

Bambam I don't think the England side is bad at all but it's obvious the Welsh are the favourites. At home with a settled squad against one of their biggest rivals in the 6 nations opener who have some absentees.

In the prediction I put England to win - it's a good enough side, just need the right tactics,decisions and performances to be made and done.

I don't think any side is unbeatable, not even the ABs but it takes a big performance to win.

No one expected Bath to beat Toulouse away yet they put them to the sword, no one expect Saints to be thumped by Racing Metro, no one expected Munster to be overpowered in such a way by Saracens etc.

Just takes a big performance. Though saying all that Wales are deservedly favourites.

[lostinwales]

The (almost) exact same players as last year, and a group of players who have pretty much played the same way for years

To be fair we do have a different set of half backs this year, Rhys Webb plays an altogether different type of game that Mike Phillips like's to play, also Dan Biggar is so much more accurate and controlled than Preistland is. Perhaps we will see our massive centers and wingers used differently after all.

Rhys Webb started last year. Biggar was on the bench. I do know Biggar is supposed to be much improved ( from what I have read on here), but he isnt exactly new to the setup. I'll guess we'll find out tomorrow

[Pete330v2]

Outside of my long beloved Ireland team this is the clash of the tournament for me and I cannot wait for tomorrow evening, laying back with a beer enjoying what always turns out to be an exceptional advert for NH rugby.
My money would be on Wales by 7 or so but it would be no surprise to see England come out on top.
The very best of luck to both teams......can't wait

[LordDowlais]

Yes, I agree, Wales are favourites, but these excuses about players not clicking together because they are not used to each other is bollox, they have had the best part of three weeks together to try and get to know each other, you cannot brag about strength in depth at one time, and then when it gets tested say it is not really a good thing, England have world class players three or four deep, and of your first fifteen you are only missing about three players who would be nailed on starters, the other injuries would be up for debate wether or not they should be first choice anyway.

[BamBam]

We don't have world class players three or four deep, we barely have 1 or 2 world class players full stop if you go by the actual definition of the term to be challengers for a World 15/23

If you mean international quality, then there's a hell of a lot of them unproven at international level, i.e. 20/30+ cap players who have been there and done it all over the world

And who exactly was bragging about strength in depth, if anything its been used as a way to praise Lancaster for strengthening the player pool for situations like this, but many have agreed that it hasn't been conducive to improving the first team

[TightHEAD]

But they have had no game time together as a team at this level, how is that Bollox when it is true?

I also don't think England have any World Class Players let alone three/four deep!
That is a load of old Bollox.

[beshocked]

Tighthead there has been unfamiliarity for England in pretty much every 6 nations since Lancaster has taken charge yet they've done quite well.

Lancaster is picking players who are in good form mostly.

One of the big issues will be whether Burrell and Cole are fully fit and recovered from their injuries. It's not a secret that Jamie Roberts dominated Burrell in their latest encounter.

[LordDowlais]

Ok, so does England have good strength in depth or not ?

[Guest]

Guess we'll find out tomorrow

[TightHEAD]

Doing quite well speaks volumes about the quality of the other teams as opposed to England imo.

I've already said I don't think this is a bad England team but playing Wales away 1st up in the 6 nations is a big ask, I expect them to lose heavily to a well drilled and experienced Welsh team at home.

[No 7&1/2]

Good strength in depth for individual players but the combos haven't been tried and tested in a lot of cases. I'm thinking Wales by 15.

[TightHEAD]

Ok, so does England have good strength in depth or not ?

Yes, better than it used to be but they are far from 'World Class' which was what you were saying.

[BamBam]

Ok, so does England have good strength in depth or not ?

You're obsessed mate

Yes, in the sense that there are a large pool of players who COULD be good international level players

No, in the sense that many of that pool who haven't yet proven that they ARE good international level players

[beshocked]

Lorddowlais training is not the same as performing in a big match - passes might go to hand on a training pitch but at the Millennium Stadium in front of over 70,000 people? We'll see won't we?

Still I am confident that England can win. Wales have more pressure on them to perform.

There is enough experience in the forward pack and Youngs has enough caps to help Ford and the rest of the backline. Brown is the rock at the back.

It is a good Welsh side though. England will be underdogs but there's enough positives to be cautiously optimistic.

[LordDowlais]

Ok, so does England have good strength in depth or not ?

You're obsessed mate

Yes, in the sense that there are a large pool of players who COULD be good international level players

No, in the sense that many of that pool who haven't yet proven that they ARE good international level players

What the fook doeas that mean ? A simple yes or no would be the answer, you cannot call it a good strength in depth when it suits you, now that it is being tested we are having OTHER excuses. The side England are putting out tomorrow are MORE than capable of winning the 6N as far as I am concerned so stop making excuses.

[TightHEAD]

But they are not world class.

[gregortree]

“It’s the variety of our game that will be key, because they will anticipate us going down the 10 channel,” said Robert Howley, the Wales attack coach."

Yes we do Rob.

[LordDowlais]

But they are not world class.

Ok, perhaps that was a bit over the top for me to say, but they are all very good players.

[BamBam]

Ok, so does England have good strength in depth or not ?

You're obsessed mate

Yes, in the sense that there are a large pool of players who COULD be good international level players

No, in the sense that many of that pool who haven't yet proven that they ARE good international level players

What the fook doeas that mean ? A simple yes or no would be the answer, you cannot call it a good strength in depth when it suits you, now that it is being tested we are having OTHER excuses. The side England are putting out tomorrow are MORE than capable of winning the 6N as far as I am concerned so stop making excuses.

Its not a yes or no question, its completely subjective.

edit - removed unnecessary comment

[lostinwales]

WALES to unleash GatBall - again - or as Howley has just called it the 'unexpected'.
About as unexpected as the Spanish Inquisition.

The (almost) exact same players as last year, and a group of players who have pretty much played the same way for years. A bruising team who can muscle past many teams even when playing poorly, but who finally managed to limp over the line against SA to record their first win over a SANZAR team for a very long time. A team that can be devastating when they play at their best but rarely do. A team we beat last time out. Its probably little different from the team we beat in the opening Friday night fixture four years ago.

They may pull one or two new plays out of the bag, and they will have spells when they cause us heaps of problems, but for the bulk of the game it will be the same old style, and we know what we have to do to counter it. (Actually doing so is another matter, but we have managed it, and yes 2 years ago we utterly failed to do so).

There are lots of questions over how England will play, and how well the new combinations will click, but if (and its a huge IF) they do click I am cautiously optimistic.

I'd be a lot less optimistic if there were some signs (e.g. different players) in the Welsh squad that would indicate the presence of a plan B, or the ability to adapt and play a different game if needed, but the only signs of anything different is an indication that they will try and send North and Cuthbert through the middle a bit more.

Big yawns

Shouldnt respond but I have at least set out some theories and added to the debate. I am not expecting you to agree with them but just stating 'big yawn' suggests that, as usual, you have nothing useful to say. Please ignore me if you find my words so offensive/boring. The contrast with the likes of LD (and even MM) is huge

[beshocked]

Lorddowlais surely you only know how good your strength in depth is when you test it.

I currently think the strength in depth is good but it might not be as good as I think - we will see tomorrow.

Wales away is a very tough test for our strength in depth.

Your strength in depth was proven to be very poor when you lost to Japan but of course strength in depth can improve over time.

Yes England can win the 6 nations with this side but it's tough - it's a bit like last season vs France - some inexperience and lack of communication hurt us badly early on which we couldn't recover from, we weren't helped by unfortunate injuries and didn't help ourselves at all.

There are so many factors to take into account - France were a bit fortunate to beat England last year yet they did. England should have won that match but didn't.

England are not expected to win the match tomorrow but of course they are capable. No team in this 6 nations is unbeatable but Wales in Wales is one of the tougher fixtures in the 6 nations.

It's not the strongest side England can field when everyone is fully fit though is it?

[LordDowlais]

BamBam, I have been reading on here and the old 606 forums for years how England have brilliant strength in depth, but now it is being tested, a little, there are a myriad of other excuses being bandied about, they are untested, the do not know each other, the combinations might not click, bla,bla,bla. The England side being put out tomorrow night are only missing three players that are probably first choice, but even they are up for question when you consider what players that could replace them, so lets please stop giving out excuses.

[TightHEAD]

But they are not world class.

Ok, perhaps that was a bit over the top for me to say, but they are all very good players.

That's better, they are good club players but are unproven at this level.

[BamBam]

BamBam, I have been reading on here and the old 606 forums for years how England have brilliant strength in depth, but now it is being tested, a little, there are a myriad of other excuses being bandied about, they are untested, the do not know each other, the combinations might not click, bla,bla,bla. The England side being put out tomorrow night are only missing three players that are probably first choice, but even they are up for question when you consider what players that could replace them, so lets please stop giving out excuses.

Until its proven international players that make up that strength in depth it means nothing, and if you have read from others any different, they are completely wrong.

[lostinwales]

I'd say an example of 'clicking' means knowing where your team mate is going to be without thinking about it, which means having more time to make a decision about what to do next. Familiarity means being able to execute more smoothly and quickly, means that players can act with confidence knowing that they don't have to cover every possible gap in defense, means that players are more likely to make the pass rather than just run into contact and letting the pack recycle.

You can of course do a lot in training to build up that familiarity, but it wont compare with the experience of being in a test for the first time

[TheRugbyMaster]

What's the reason for the open roof? Who didn't agree to closing it?

[BamBam]

England

[LordDowlais]

What's the reason for the open roof? Who didn't agree to closing it?

Lancaster wants it open, but he was always going to be on a loser with that one, if he said keep it closed, people would say we have them on the run, they have already given in to our roof demands now lets finish them off, but now he has said keep it open, people are going to say, right, if he wants it open, let him have it open, lets get out there and prove that we can win what ever is done with the roof. If you think about it, it is quite a clever ploy by Gatland.

[BamBam]

Or alternatively its an outdoor sport so keep it outdoors

[gregortree]

Because St George wants to see the match.

[Guest]

Or alternatively its an outdoor sport so keep it outdoors

Thats the one Martin Johnson used, its such a cop out excuse.

At least its supposed to be dry tomorrow

[BamBam]

I look forward to the next Ashes series being played at the Millennium Stadium with the roof on to avoid the elements

While we're at it we can put the World Championship snooker final on at Lords in winter

After all, it doesn't matter what conditions are used in every other form of a sport

[MarcusHalberstram]

"Rugby is an outdoor sport". Errr, well it is... if it's played outdoors.

Rugby is a sport. And it's played on a pitch, not in the sky.

[beshocked]

Open roof or not -who cares? Perhaps Gatland needs to be more focussed on the game than the roof!

Clever ploy by Gatland? Really? Pre-match windup tactics are about a roof?

Really scraping the barrell this time round.

Bravo Gatland...

I have a bold solution to this crisis - flip a coin.

[SecretFly]

Open roof or not -who cares? Perhaps Gatland needs to be more focussed on the game than the roof!

Clever ploy by Gatland? Really? Pre-match windup tactics are about a roof?

Really scraping the barrell this time round.

Bravo Gatland...  

I have a bold solution to this crisis - flip a coin.

The air moves differently in the open to inside under a roof.  

SO.......................... where exactly does this coin get tossed?  Outside or inside?  I think because the game is in Wales, Gatland gets to decide.

...but Lancaster gets to overrule him.

[MarcusHalberstram]

Bravo, Fly

[gregortree]

English MPs to have a veto.

[LordDowlais]

Here's a thought, I wonder if having the roof open will affect the English players ? Will having the roof open suddenly make these new England players, who have never been tested, or played together before, suddenly remember what do to again when they take the field ? I wonder if the roof being open will make each player remember the other players name ? I wonder if having the roof open will make them remember every thing they have gone through in training ? Ooooh this roof malarky will make ALL the difference to the English players who might forget what they have been told to do in training if it was kept closed.

[MarcusHalberstram]

English votes for Welsh roofs - it's an outrage!

[MarcusHalberstram]

Maybe the Western Mail should run a campaign to get every Welsh fan to bring an umbrella - the net sonic effect being the same as one big roof.

[beshocked]

Lorddowlais it's Gatland who sees the roof as being a key factor in victory tomorrow.....most intelligent people don't see it as particularly important.

[TightHEAD]

1-0 to England

[LordDowlais]

most intelligent people don't see it as particularly important.

Beshocked, to be honest I could not give a flying fook about the roof, my comment was aimed at the excuses some people are peddling on here before a ball has been kicked.

[Rugby Fan]

Anyone else on the injury list yet? I'm thinking back strain for Attwood as he tries in vain to leap for one of Tom Young's lineout throws.

[SecretFly]

I find it a humourous old game each year when the people who want the roof closed say it really doesn't/shouldn't matter which way it is...and the people who want it opened say it really shouldn't/doesn't really matter either way.

None of us are bovvered...but it still an issue where one group says they want it closed and the other would prefer it open......

That's a lorrah secretive second-guessing and double-tap chess-playing of the mental kind for no 'real' advantage either way.

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