6N Round 2: Scotland v Wales, 15 February

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SCOTLAND v WALES
Sunday 15 February 2015
KO 15:00 (GMT)
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on BBC1

Referee: Glen Jackson (NZR)
AR1: George Clancy (IRFU)
AR2: Dudley Phillips (IRFU)
TMO: Simon McDowell (IRFU)

A. Teams:

1. SCOTLAND

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors);
14 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors);
13 Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors);
12 Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors);
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby);
10 Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors);
9 Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN (Gloucester);

1 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby);
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby);
3 Geoff Cross (London Irish);
4 Richie Gray (Castres);
5 Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors);
6 Rob Harley (Glasgow Warriors),
7 Blair Cowan (London Irish);
8 Johnnie Beattie (Castres);

16 Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors);
17 Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors);
18 Jon Welsh (Glasgow Warriors);
19 Jim Hamilton (Saracens);
20 Alasdair Strokosch (USA Perpignan);
21 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne (Edinburgh Rugby);
22 Greig Tonks (Edinburgh Rugby);
23 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby);

2. WALES

15 Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon)
14 Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues)
13 Jonathan Davies (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
12 Jamie Roberts (Racing Metro)
11 Liam Williams (Scarlets)
10 Dan Biggar (Ospreys)
09 Rhys Webb (Ospreys)

01 Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues)
02 Richard Hibbard (Gloucester)
03 Aaron Jarvis (Ospreys)
04 Jake Ball (Scarlets)
05 Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys)
06 Dan Lydiate (Ospreys)
07 Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues, CAPT)
08 Taulupe Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons)

16 Scott Baldwin (Ospreys)
17 Paul James (Bath Rugby)
18 Scott Andrews (Cardiff Blues)
19 Luke Charteris (Racing Metro)
20 Justin Tipuric (Ospreys)
21 Mike Phillips (Racing Metro)
22 Rhys Priestland (Scarlets)
23 Scott Williams (Scarlets)

B. Form (last 4 games):

1. SCOTLAND

07/02/15 - France 15 - 8 Scotland

22/11/14 - Scotland 37 - 12 Tonga

15/11/14 - Scotland 16 - 24 New Zealand

08/11/14 - Scotland 41 - 31 Argentina

2. WALES

06/02/15 - Wales 16 - 21 England

29/11/14 - Wales 12 - 6 South Africa

22/11/14 - Wales 16 - 34 New Zealand

15/11/14  - Wales 17 - 13 Fiji

C. Head to Head:

120 Played 120

48 Wins 69

69 Losses 48

3 Draws 3

180 Tries 227

80 Conversions 112

130 Penalties 142

30 Drop Goals 25

1,204 Points 1,578

Scotland announcing team on Friday

Dear oh dear. First time in a LONG time I've serisouly questioned the Great Gats sanity. The team aren't going to lose support, but Gatland will if he keeps this BS up. The team is capable of a win, and if we do we'll no doubt be hearing about how guys are given a second chance, back to winning ways, he was right, etc. He's going to have go after the RWC I think.

So if Wales steamroller Scotland and get a good win, where does that leave everyone's opinion of Gatland?

The Saint wrote:Dear oh dear. First time in a LONG time I've serisouly questioned the Great Gats sanity. The team aren't going to lose support, but Gatland will if he keeps this BS up. The team is capable of a win, and if we do we'll no doubt be hearing about how guys are given a second chance, back to winning ways, he was right, etc. He's going to have go after the RWC I think.

Again I'm not sure where this train of thought comes from. Over the course of a few threads I have heard this cocktail of opinions on Wales/Gatland/Gatlandball

+ Gatland is making the best out of Wales' physical players.
+ Wales have better players than those being currently picked.
+ Gatland doesn't pick small players
+ The Welsh team are saving themselves / their best rugby for the world cup,
+ The loss against England was a blip and Gatlandball generally works well for Wales.
+ The Win against South Africa vindicated Gatland and Gatlandball.
+ Warren Gatland should be fired immediately/after the 6N/after the RWC
+ Gatland has taken Wales as far as he can
+ The players should rebel against Gatland/Gatlandball and play heads up rugby for themselves
+ The Welsh players aren't fit enough and have to get beasted by Gatlands coaching staff
+ Wales ran out of puff against England

Could someone in layman's terms tell me just what the hell is going on?

RDW_Scotland wrote:So if Wales steamroller Scotland and get a good win, where does that leave everyone's opinion of Gatland?

Mine is still the same. We've had wins over Scotland in the past even if we're playing poorly, so I don't see what a win would do this time around. Besides, getting beaten then 'giving them another chance' is just history repeating itself and is the reason why we're inconsistent.

Radge, it's Shrödinger's Cat distilled into rugby coaching.

This Wales team can play and win on Sunday, making Gatland a genius for sticking to his strategy in the face of a hostile media.

This Wales team can play and lose on Sunday, making Gatland a stubborn idiot, too arrogant and set in his ways to adapt to the changing tactical realities of international rugby. It could be said, therefore, that Gatland is either a genius or an idiot.

Now imagine that the match has already been played, but none of us know the result. Considering that we are mere passengers on this magic carpet we call rugby, this is plausible. It could be argued that Gatland holds a unique position of metaphysical flux in which he is both genius and idiot at the same time. I watched 'Lions Raw: 2013', so I know this is true.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

The Saint wrote:Dear oh dear. First time in a LONG time I've serisouly questioned the Great Gats sanity. The team aren't going to lose support, but Gatland will if he keeps this BS up. The team is capable of a win, and if we do we'll no doubt be hearing about how guys are given a second chance, back to winning ways, he was right, etc. He's going to have go after the RWC I think.

Again I'm not sure where this train of thought comes from. Over the course of a few threads I have heard this cocktail of opinions on Wales/Gatland/Gatlandball

+ Gatland is making the best out of Wales' physical players.
+ Wales have better players than those being currently picked.
+ Gatland doesn't pick small players
+ The Welsh team are saving themselves / their best rugby for the world cup,
+ The loss against England was a blip and Gatlandball generally works well for Wales.
+ The Win against South Africa vindicated Gatland and Gatlandball.
+ Warren Gatland should be fired immediately/after the 6N/after the RWC
+ Gatland has taken Wales as far as he can
+ The players should rebel against Gatland/Gatlandball and play heads up rugby for themselves
+ The Welsh players aren't fit enough and have to get beasted by Gatlands coaching staff
+ Wales ran out of puff against England

Could someone in layman's terms tell me just what the hell is going on?

They're all interdependent perspectives, each is based on results. Don't see how it's difficult to work that out? The general consensus seem to agree that we need changes in personnel and tactics. 1, because form players should always be picked (for a number of reasons). 2, different teams can sometimes require a different style of play to the generic one.

If Gaitland was to go (I guess after the world cup), who would Wales fans want to replace him with?

Can I put an early suggestion of Scott Johnson in.  It would be hard to give him up, but I think we would let you have him.

Perhaps we Scots are an anomaly, or it's a byproduct of us being so utterly rancid for the last few years, but 97 times out of 100 us Scottish posters are more or less saying the same things.  

For Example.

Visser : Great try scorer, tackles like wet tissue paper.

Mark Bennet : The messiah's second coming.

Vern Cotter : Best thing to happen to Scottish rugby apart from his non selection of Barclay and Brown.

Scott Johnson : Mr Winklechops.

and so on and so forth. Whereas Gatland appears to utterly polarize the Welsh fans.

EWT Spoons wrote:If Gaitland was to go (I guess after the world cup), who would Wales fans want to replace him with?

Can I put an early suggestion of Scott Johnson in.  It would be hard to give him up, but I think we would let you have him.

Yeah..................... and he's already familiar with Welsh players and structures and Regional bosses etc.
............................ and he has the ability to capitalise on the framework of resistance to incremental postulates of forward style play
............................ and he is a chicken on a roost with cocklike habits when a fox might be lurking around outside with a grenade, mate.

He's a perfect fit.

SecretFly wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:If Gaitland was to go (I guess after the world cup), who would Wales fans want to replace him with?

Can I put an early suggestion of Scott Johnson in.  It would be hard to give him up, but I think we would let you have him.

Yeah..................... and he's already familiar with Welsh players and structures and Regional bosses etc.
............................ and he has the ability to capitalise on the framework of resistance to incremental postulates of forward style play
............................ and he is a chicken on a roost with cocklike habits when a fox might be lurking around outside with a grenade, mate.

He's a perfect fit.

AND he has his own Boris Johnson Christmas twinkle hair kit

IanBru wrote: It could be said, therefore, that Gatland is either a genius or an idiot.

On the basis of this binary distinction - there are far more idiots in this world that geniuses. Therefore using the power of statistics, with respect to Mr. Gatland I have drawn my own conclusion.

EWT Spoons wrote:If Gaitland was to go (I guess after the world cup), who would Wales fans want to replace him with?

Can I put an early suggestion of Scott Johnson in.  It would be hard to give him up, but I think we would let you have him.

The Welsh simply could not allow our northern brethren make such a sacrifice. It would be like asking the Greeks to follow a more austere path.

Let's just hope Stuart Hogg doesn't get a red......................................

SecretFly wrote:Let's just hope Stuart Hogg doesn't get a red......................................

I really think that incident last year changed him as a player.

He was starting to believe his own hype and to be honest was a bit on the "bratty" side of things.

He has gained a hell of a lot more composure now.

Radge, Radge what have you done? That's the equivalent of the cavalry scout saying, " I don't like it ...it's too quiet tonight."
Now Glenda Jackson's certain to give him a red on the third minute. Just don't mention how calm and well behaved Jim Hamilton has been recently.

jimbopip wrote: " I don't like it ...it's too quiet tonight."

Scott Johnson is a clown comprised of mummified foreskin held together by a binding agent of sustained lunacy and topped off with an Elvis wig made of candy floss.

Discuss.

George Carlin wrote:Scott Johnson is a clown comprised of mummified foreskin held together by a binding agent of sustained lunacy and topped off with an Elvis wig made of candy floss.

Discuss.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cretin

^ SJ

Again it's only when his name is dragged out into daylight that I am again baffled as to why he has any affiliation with Rugby, Scottish or otherwise.

Did anyone else see him in the Scottish changing room last Saturday and think 'what the fiec is that utter utter bellcheese doing in there?'

......or was it just me?

I would've said a few years back 'cannot believe Gatland hasn't rung the changes after last weeks display' but this is Gatland and i'm not surprised in the slightest!

The only good thing is Liam Williams coming in, although again is playing in a position where he won't be as effective. How Scott Williams isn't starting i'll never know. If Scott had put in the performance JD2 did last week he would have been out at the drop of the hat! Cuthbert shouldn't be in there, Amos should and I really can't wait for the tried and tested Phillips/Preistland combo for 20 mins left *facepalm*

JD is better than Brian O'Driscoll too.

Liam wrote:I would've said a few years back 'cannot believe Gatland hasn't rung the changes after last weeks display' but this is Gatland and i'm not surprised in the slightest!

The only good thing is Liam Williams coming in, although again is playing in a position where he won't be as effective. How Scott Williams isn't starting i'll never know. If Scott had put in the performance JD2 did last week he would have been out at the drop of the hat! Cuthbert shouldn't be in there, Amos should and I really can't wait for the tried and tested Phillips/Preistland combo for 20 mins left *facepalm*

I'm not so sure. He's a big lad and will face the mighty Tim Visser who has a penchant for what I like to call the "Guscott Tackling Technique".

Also known as the 'Ole' defence so perfected by Spanish bullfighters

If Maitland is fit Visser probably won't start.

Maitland's defence is very good but his try scoring record leaves a little to be desired (2 tries in about 20 caps I think). Pretty much the opposite of Visser.

Is Seymour likely to play? I know he went off injured last week, is Maitland not more likely to start on the right wing with Fife staying on the bench

Seymour was back training on Tuesday apparently, hopefully he's fit

Weegie Wizard wrote:If Maitland is fit Visser probably won't start.

Maitland's defence is very good but his try scoring record leaves a little to be desired (2 tries in about 20 caps I think). Pretty much the opposite of Visser.

I agree - Cotter seemed to prefer Seymour and Maitland to Visser in the AIs and I suspect he'll go with those two if fit against Wales.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:The welsh team didn't apply any pressure on England in the second half, our set piece fell apart and our backrow didn't try to compete for ball. The players made stupid decisions that weren't going to take advantage of England's weaknesses and weren't going to use our strengths.

AWJs calls line out? He has to take a lot of blame, he is an experienced leader in the team and he needs to be far more accurate in his decisions.

Hibbard needs to be more explosive in attack and defence, as does jake ball, both are our carriers and neither impressed.

Samson lee needs to be taught how to play rugby, Adam Jones might be slow around the park but he is an infinitely better rugby player.

We need some brains in the front five.

With the backs, everyone outside Biggar needs to offer better lines in attack. They gave him nothing to play with.

At halfback we need to retain possession far longer, don't kick it away, pressure the opposition and force their defensive mistakes, it takes a lot of patience.

Maes,

No mention of Jenkins there I see, someone who I have said for some time shouldn't be first choice but you dis-agree yet he got utterly stuffed from the get go on Friday.

I stand by Jenkins, James added nothing when he came on. dan Cole was boring in and the referee didn't spot it. What can you do?

We need a rugby brain with experience and that's what Jenkins gives. James is a decent scrummager but he is not a smart enough rugby player in all other aspects to oust Jenkins.

James hasn't added anything for a long time now. Rob a Evans should be the man to come in. I'd still have James on the bench covering TH, as that is how bad the other options are...or better yet just beg Adam Jones to come back.

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:The welsh team didn't apply any pressure on England in the second half, our set piece fell apart and our backrow didn't try to compete for ball. The players made stupid decisions that weren't going to take advantage of England's weaknesses and weren't going to use our strengths.

AWJs calls line out? He has to take a lot of blame, he is an experienced leader in the team and he needs to be far more accurate in his decisions.

Hibbard needs to be more explosive in attack and defence, as does jake ball, both are our carriers and neither impressed.

Samson lee needs to be taught how to play rugby, Adam Jones might be slow around the park but he is an infinitely better rugby player.

We need some brains in the front five.

With the backs, everyone outside Biggar needs to offer better lines in attack. They gave him nothing to play with.

At halfback we need to retain possession far longer, don't kick it away, pressure the opposition and force their defensive mistakes, it takes a lot of patience.

Maes,

No mention of Jenkins there I see, someone who I have said for some time shouldn't be first choice but you dis-agree yet he got utterly stuffed from the get go on Friday.

I stand by Jenkins, James added nothing when he came on. dan Cole was boring in and the referee didn't spot it. What can you do?

We need a rugby brain with experience and that's what Jenkins gives. James is a decent scrummager but he is not a smart enough rugby player in all other aspects to oust Jenkins.

If only Steve Walsh was refereeing eh?

The Saint wrote:James hasn't added anything for a long time now. Rob a Evans should be the man to come in. I'd still have James on the bench covering TH, as that is how bad the other options are...or better yet just beg Adam Jones to come back.

James absolutely mashed the Glasgow front row in their last HK game.

Good thing we've got an all Edinburgh (or former Edinburgh) front row then!

Cant help think Scotland beating Wales might be the best result for both teams on Sunday? The Benefits for resurgent Scotland are obvious but for Wales it would hopefully make Gatland look at his tactics and personnel and develop a plan B in time for the world cup. ?

Gatland Ball is looking more and more like a defunct tactic clung on to by a staid set in there way coaching team . I'm sure quite a few Non welsh supporters like myself are getting bored of watching Wales as a neutral which is a shame considering the welsh greats of the past?

I cant help thinking my love for the great rugby nation of wales would be renewed if you gave us our first points since 2007.

I feel a bit really sorry for Welsh supporters. Wales could field a creative backline with players such as Eli Walker, Liam Williams, Hanno Dirksen, Scott Williams, Jordan Williams and Owen Williams, yet Gatland goes for a team that with a backline out of form (Davies, Cuthbert, North) and without that zip needed to open up defences (like England has Joseph, May, Scotland, Hogg).

At the beginning Wales could beat just about anyone with their tactics (RWC '11). Then the SH worked them out. Now, they have lost to England at home and could be staring at defeats to Ireland and France (possibly Scotland).

Just frustrating that there are genuine alternatives that aren't being given a shot. Just imagine:

Webb, Biggar, Walker, O Williams, Roberts, L Williams, Halfpenny (Bench: Davies, Dirksen,  Anscombe)- that gives you a solid second five eighth with good passing and kicking skills, some power in Roberts, elusiveness in Williams and Walker and a rock at the back in Halfpenny.

I don't have much sympathy for Welsh fans - they have won 2 grand slams and another title in the time where we've won 8 out of 42 games. If this is all they've got to complain about then they have a very easy time as a rugby fan!

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Did anyone else see him in the Scottish changing room last Saturday and think 'what the fiec is that utter utter bellcheese doing in there?'

......or was it just me?

No no, I think that every time he appears in front of my eyes.

I think it will have been in everyones best interests if Beattie has spent all week in training being told 'see that mulleted clown over there, go and run through him repeatedly and try not to be bounced backwards'

RDW_Scotland wrote:I don't have much sympathy for Welsh fans - they have won 2 grand slams and another title in the time where we've won 8 out of 42 games. If this is all they've got to complain about then they have a very easy time as a rugby fan!

Damn darn tootin! Plus - they have yet another WC hosting gig coming up with two of their 'away' games being at home

No, no. The Welsh find plenty of reasons to think the world is agin 'em...but they got things pretty sweet all told these last number of years.

Not to forget their run to the semi final at the last world cup.

Also, osprey's fans have been able to celebrate league success, and I'm.sure the blues have won the Amlin.

So yeah - 'our team is a bit boring' would be the least of Scotland's worries!

IanBru wrote:Radge, it's Shrödinger's Cat distilled into rugby coaching.

This Wales team can play and win on Sunday, making Gatland a genius for sticking to his strategy in the face of a hostile media.

This Wales team can play and lose on Sunday, making Gatland a stubborn idiot, too arrogant and set in his ways to adapt to the changing tactical realities of international rugby. It could be said, therefore, that Gatland is either a genius or an idiot.

Now imagine that the match has already been played, but none of us know the result. Considering that we are mere passengers on this magic carpet we call rugby, this is plausible. It could be argued that Gatland holds a unique position of metaphysical flux in which he is both genius and idiot at the same time. I watched 'Lions Raw: 2013', so I know this is true.

This post has justified the existence of 606v2.

Thank you, Mr Bru

Stuff it. I'm going to put my tenner where my mouth is

Off to the bookies to place a bet on scotland to win by 5 and visser to be the first try scorer.

Wales do have a chance of winning this week end, IF they realise that they have to play for the full eighty minutes. and not switch off after the first forty minutes.

Wales did play very well in the first half, but did not seem to get going in the second half, going in to half time in the lead and then not scoring a single point in the second half.

Prothero wrote:Cant help think Scotland beating Wales might be the best result for both teams on Sunday? The Benefits for resurgent Scotland are obvious but for Wales it would hopefully make Gatland look at his tactics and personnel and develop a plan B in time for the world cup. ?

Gatland Ball is looking more and more like a defunct tactic clung on to by a staid set in there way coaching team . I'm sure quite a few Non welsh supporters like myself are getting bored of watching Wales as a neutral which is a shame considering the welsh greats of the past?

I cant help thinking my love for the great rugby nation of wales would be renewed if you gave us our first points since 2007.

No one was playing Gatland ball in the second half last Friday... You are confusing stupidity and bad decisions with the tactical approach the coaches wanted the team to play.

majesticimperialman wrote:Wales do have a chance of winning this week end, IF they realise that they have to play for the full eighty minutes. and not switch off after the first forty minutes.

Wales did play very well in the first half, but did not seem to get going in the second half, going in to half time in the lead and then not scoring a single point in the second half.

yes................... but also England knew they wanted to turn a screw in the second half. The upped everything - the pace, the aggression, the passing, the bloodyminded intensity of spirit. 'Not getting going' becomes a relative supposition under such conditions.

Here's some fairly damming stats to cheer us up on a Thursday morning:

Scotland haven't scored a try vs Wales at Murrayfield in 240 minutes of rugby

Our last try at home to Wales was in 2009 when Max Evans scored

Our last win over Wales at Murrayfield (2007) was achieved entirely via Mossy's boot, with no tries scored

We did manage 3 tries in 2005, but only having been down 3-38 at half time (the famous player's rebellion against Matt Williams)

You can add to that the memories of the 2013 game against Wales, which was by some distance the worst game of rugby I have ever had the misfortune to watch (the one with all the scrums).

I took my football obsessed friend to his first ever rugby game, and had to keep telling him 'it's not usually like this!'

majesticimperialman wrote:Wales Scotland do have a chance of winning this week end, IF they realise that they have to play for the full eighty minutes. and not switch off after the first forty minutes.

Wales Scotland did play very well in the first half, but did not seem to get going in the second half, going in to half time in the lead and then not scoring a single point in the second half.

Makes just as much sense now. Is this proof of the existence of Schrodinger's kittens?

When does the Scotland team get announced?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:When does the Scotland team get announced?

Friday

We honestly cannot compare these circumstances to what's transpired in the past:

1. Wales no longer have the services of the original Squashed Goblin, Mr Shane Mark Williams and so Scotland fans no longer need to chew their nails to the bone in anticipation of the inevitable moment in each game when he got bored and decided to beat our entire defensive line single-handed.

2. Scotland's midfield used to comprise an entire field of donkeys who were neither able to pass, step, run quickly, run straight, run, think for themselves or avoid spectacular brainfarts. Step forward Andy Henderson, Graeme Morrison, Alex Grove, Nick de Luca, Max Evans, Rob Dewey, Tom Philip, Simon Webster and Kevin Utterson.

3. Scotland's 10 used to be nothing more than a tackle bag for the opposing team's loose forwards and had all the skills of an inebriated squadron of ferrets trying to escape from inside a buttoned duvet. I shudder at the mere mention of Dan Parks and Phil Godman who were in their own way, white crotch stains on the trousers of Scottish rugby.

4. Scotland's wingers used to be slower than a glacial crack forming, about as mobile as Madagascar and less explosive than a wet sparkler. Rory Kerr, Nikki Walker, Simon Danielli, Sean Lamont, Lee Jones. All hugely forgettable.

5. Scotland's coaches used to select players by pinning their names to a Murrayfield post and then throwing darts left handed at them from the 22 yard line.

Compare that whiteout to having Vern Cotter (a successful coach by anyone's standards) marshalling the likes of Finn Russell, Jonny Gray, Mark Bennett, Matt Scott, Alex Dunbar, Tim Visser, Rob Harley, Tommy Seymour and Stuart Hogg, with players like Willem Nel, Josh Strauss and (hopefully, eventually) Cornell du Preez on their way.

It's such an enormous difference I had to open a window to let some of the irony out.

So to paraprase:

We were shoite. Now we are less shoite and when some Saffers qualify we may be good?