6N Round 2: Scotland v Wales, 15 February

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SCOTLAND v WALES
Sunday 15 February 2015
KO 15:00 (GMT)
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on BBC1

Referee: Glen Jackson (NZR)
AR1: George Clancy (IRFU)
AR2: Dudley Phillips (IRFU)
TMO: Simon McDowell (IRFU)

A. Teams:

1. SCOTLAND

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors);
14 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors);
13 Mark Bennett (Glasgow Warriors);
12 Alex Dunbar (Glasgow Warriors);
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby);
10 Finn Russell (Glasgow Warriors);
9 Greig Laidlaw CAPTAIN (Gloucester);

1 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby);
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby);
3 Geoff Cross (London Irish);
4 Richie Gray (Castres);
5 Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors);
6 Rob Harley (Glasgow Warriors),
7 Blair Cowan (London Irish);
8 Johnnie Beattie (Castres);

16 Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors);
17 Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors);
18 Jon Welsh (Glasgow Warriors);
19 Jim Hamilton (Saracens);
20 Alasdair Strokosch (USA Perpignan);
21 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne (Edinburgh Rugby);
22 Greig Tonks (Edinburgh Rugby);
23 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby);

2. WALES

15 Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon)
14 Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues)
13 Jonathan Davies (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
12 Jamie Roberts (Racing Metro)
11 Liam Williams (Scarlets)
10 Dan Biggar (Ospreys)
09 Rhys Webb (Ospreys)

01 Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues)
02 Richard Hibbard (Gloucester)
03 Aaron Jarvis (Ospreys)
04 Jake Ball (Scarlets)
05 Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys)
06 Dan Lydiate (Ospreys)
07 Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues, CAPT)
08 Taulupe Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons)

16 Scott Baldwin (Ospreys)
17 Paul James (Bath Rugby)
18 Scott Andrews (Cardiff Blues)
19 Luke Charteris (Racing Metro)
20 Justin Tipuric (Ospreys)
21 Mike Phillips (Racing Metro)
22 Rhys Priestland (Scarlets)
23 Scott Williams (Scarlets)

B. Form (last 4 games):

1. SCOTLAND

07/02/15 - France 15 - 8 Scotland

22/11/14 - Scotland 37 - 12 Tonga

15/11/14 - Scotland 16 - 24 New Zealand

08/11/14 - Scotland 41 - 31 Argentina

2. WALES

06/02/15 - Wales 16 - 21 England

29/11/14 - Wales 12 - 6 South Africa

22/11/14 - Wales 16 - 34 New Zealand

15/11/14  - Wales 17 - 13 Fiji

C. Head to Head:

120 Played 120

48 Wins 69

69 Losses 48

3 Draws 3

180 Tries 227

80 Conversions 112

130 Penalties 142

30 Drop Goals 25

1,204 Points 1,578

Nachos Jones wrote:

The Saint wrote:Got to laugh at All these accusations from the usual whinging posters, every single WALES game you're all out in full force. Go take a look at the scoreboard, that's our 8th straight win over Scotland and for the matches on here the ref has been blamed on every occassion. That was one of the worst Wales performances in years and Scotland still can't beat us - we can for now safely say no corner has been turned.

Well done Wales, but don't expect any congratulations from the supposed 'neutrals.'

I am a neutral and will say well done to Wales on the win, overall I believe they were the better side today. That said, you cannot deny that Wales lived a very charmed life in the last 7 mins by keeping a full compliment of players on the field when realistically, they should have seen a yellow card for persistent professional fouls. That may or may not have changed to outcome of the match but even the most rose tinted Welsh fan must admit at least that

Fair constructive comment. I think some 'rugby fans' on here should take note.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Genuine question, if Wales had just kicked the kick off out of play, would that have been game over anyway?

Braindead from Hamilton too, just get up and run back.

No would have been a scrum on half was to Scotland.

Why? Scrum or lineout is game over?

The game is deemed not to have restarted I guess but that would have been the outcome if it occured.

(e)
If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

My interpretation of that is that the game would have been over had Wales kicked the kick off out?

The ball was dead after the try.

Nope. Still time for the kivk off as it was before 80 mins. Rusell should have drop kicked it and run to halfway - that would have made the point to the ref

Well there were very few positives to take out of that game for me, how Nuggett can say we are back on track is blinkered in the extreme, we had two chances to score tries and we took them thats about the only chances we cretaed.

Our set piece was shocking for most of the game, Jenkins is not up to this level anymore in the scrum and we all knew Jarvis would struggle, lets hope Lee just stays injury free until - well until we can find another tight head option.

Out line out creaked again yet we have 3 hookers in the management set up, Hibbard is a big physical player but his throwing in has always been dodgy, with Owens playing for Scarlets today I think he is the better option.

Our attack is still poor and predictable and for me Howley has to go simple.

Webb has got a bit of Phillip itis at the moment and he needs to be reminded the one aspect that gets him selected is his speed of service, lets hope Gareth Davies gets a shot soon.

Scotland won't win a game as long as Laidlaw is playing, guy makes Mike Philips looks fast.

Why don't the Scots pick Barkley at7 instead of the less than average import.

I can understand Scots upset about Jackson - he missed some howling calls from our perspective too. Personally, I think Scotland looked pretty good in the first half, but were dominated in the second. The final score flattered them a little, I believe.

All sides seem a bit schizophrenic so far in this competition - a good 20/40 mins here and there, but very lumpy performances all around.

Oh yeah and the Dragons beat Leinster GET IN.

Awful reffing and Scotland can be bitterly disappointed they didn't see any Welsh in the bin in the last 10. However, Scotland were constantly giving pens away in their 22 in the first half and the majority of the second and were lucky not to see a yellow too. Still, awful reffing in the last 10 for the scots boys but overalls Wales deserved victors. Slightly improved but a hell of allot more to improve on, especially that awful set piece!!

A contest of who was less dire.

Wales looked utterly clueless, lateral and error ridden and were it no for Scots letting them in then the game would surely have gone to them, but they were more dire than Wales - just how many pens did they not convert into points- and that is what cost them.

Rugby at its most awful

Wales won't beat Ireland or France playing this way. ThE only player on the park who looked like he was trying to beat the man was Sanjay, JD2 was dire bar one moment of brilliance and IMO Scott Williams deserves his shot.

Scot Andrews offers more than Jarvis, Hibbard and Lydiate have to be question marks too.

Ire Eng decides this tourney and i hope it turns out to be a great game, for me the Irish will win


Oh yeah i forgot to mention the utterly dire set piece from Wales and some dire reefing decisions

10/10 for Dire-ness

Forgot to say actually, well done Wales. Absolutely dominated the high ball, which gave you a lot of go forward and field position. I understand you guys aren't playing the sort of rugby you'd like to see which is very frustrating, but if you get sick of playing badly but still winning we'll gladly swap with you?!

bedfordwelsh wrote:Oh yeah and the Dragons beat Leinster GET IN.

And Blues got stuffed last night. This is turning out to be a very good weekend for the Saint .

Do you guys wanna hear about my good weekend? I'll set up a new thread.

This potato could have refereed the game more effectively than Glen Jackson

Gwlad wrote:A contest of who was less dire.

Wales looked utterly clueless, lateral and error ridden and were it no for Scots letting them in then the game would surely have gone to them, but they were more dire than Wales - just how many pens did they not convert into points- and that is what cost them.

Rugby at its most awful

Wales won't beat Ireland or France playing this way. ThE only player on the park who looked like he was trying to beat the man was Sanjay, JD2 was dire bar one moment of brilliance and IMO Scott Williams deserves his shot.

Scot Andrews offers more than Jarvis, Hibbard and Lydiate have to be question marks too.

Ire Eng decides this tourney and i hope it turns out to be a great game, for me the Irish will win

Gwlad,

Who would have thought we would ever say that about Andrews but he looked the better option out of the two but still not up to it for me.  I would def give Owens a crack over Hibbard and whilst we are stuttering in our style as we are then yeah Lydiates place is in doubt but that would require a change of style and we know Gatland won't do that.

Sc Williams should have started today anyway.

Hats off to Biggar, Halfpenny and Williams they are fearless in the air.

Problem being we will now have that numpty Jason Mohammad foaming at the mouth about how good we were on Scrum V, he's our very own version of InverDull

Liam Williams must stay in the side he offers much more than any of our backs. Another good performance.

Still concerned about the scrum, Wales got away with the scrum fhat needs improvement.

Nematode wrote:This potato could have refereed the game more effectively than Glen Jackson

Jeez Neme, you'll get the irish involved in the tread now!!!

Wales absolutely playing Glen Jackson like a fool there, complete with starting a fight to prevent the restart. Complaining about a referee is just boring and daft so I will just congratulate Wales on getting the job done and commiserate with Scotland for another brave but fruitless effort. Definitely the better of the attacking teams was Scotland, but better defensive effort from Wales won the day.

Scrum should improve with Lee back. North should come back for Cuthbert, all he did was get tackled behind the gainline today. Tips in for Lydiate too, the back row is just too similar at the moment. Scott in for JD is borderline, but I'd probably say make that change.

Don't know what to say about that game. First half even I would say but Wales definitely had the better of the first 30mins of the second half, even if it took a missed tackle for them to score.

They were dying on their feet for the last 10 mins though and had Bennett's try been allowed, and it looked good to me, even forgetting about the attempted decapitation, it could have gone differently. They should not have been allowed to offend the way they did and were going to keep on doing it until one of them was binned. Its a professional sport and you can only blame the ref for letting them get away with it.

Scotland had their chances to win the game though and did not take them. I think we will see some changes for the next game. S H-C showed us what he has got and what better game than Italy to try him out. Laidlaw did not have his best game and probably showed his limitations at this level. Beattie was poor again and we may have seen the last of him. I would like to see Toolis on the bench as well. Time to shake it up a bit a bit and try something new, we have got nothing to lose now and if it works could still salvage something from the season.

I said at the beginning of the tournament that I would be happy with 2 wins and some performances, I still would be.

Wales should not be to pleased with their performance, they won, but were not convincing. They won't beat the best sides playing like that, even if it was good enough for Scotland today.

glamorganalun wrote:Liam Williams must stay in the side he offers much more than any of our backs. Another good performance.

Still concerned about the scrum, Wales got away with the scrum fhat needs improvement.

Alun,

Agreed 110% Williams has to stay most likely at the expense of Cuthbert but him staying there is the most important thing, though I would be so tempted to drop North and Cuthbert and go with Williams Halfpenny and Amos.

Jenkins has to be dropped now, yes he was good around the park but you must be able to do your primary job which he doesn't at this level anymore. My choice would be and has been for sometime is James but I know he splits opinions so with the future in mind let's have a look at Evans.

What does McBryde actually do? Shocking scrum and line-out. The ref was very kind to Wales today, but he made a rod for his own back not issuing a yellow card in the first half for penalties given away when Scotland were defending in their own 22. On another day Wales could have had a number of players in the bin at the end. I don't think Scotland should be happy at all; they should be winning games at home against poor teams and Wales are a poor team at the moment.

tigertattie wrote:

Nematode wrote:This potato could have refereed the game more effectively than Glen Jackson

Jeez Neme, you'll get the irish involved in the tread now!!!

At least it's not a turnip otherwise one could have been accused of munster bias

well that was a tense game!

Firstly commiserations to Scotland, you certainly are an improving side, you just need to get a win over one of the bigger teams in the 6nations and then confidence and self belief will increase. Also remember how young some of your players how, Russell showed he is still green at the international game with his miss kicks and taking an age with the conversion, however a senior player should have been speaking to the ref, and Hamilton was stupid for looking for a fight.

Wales, played a lot better than last week, our aerial game was excellent and thought halfpenny and faletau had one of their better games in a while, although Cuthbert and Roberts again fairly quiet. Liam Williams was also very good. We really need to work on our attack though as it is so one dimensional at the moment. Thought the set piece was a cause for concern again, although at least this week the front five actually put in a shift across the park. Tipuric also made a good impact.

Ok the ref. Frankly as adults you should all grow up, he was not fantastic by any stretch and frankly Scotland were lucky to not concede a yellow card in the first half and wales were rather fortunate to not concede one maybe two in the second half. However he did let the game flow much better than many refs and that made for an entertaining (if not nail biting) game.

Just focussing at a few decisions however, which have been discussed on here a lot.
It wasn't a high tackle on visser, it was chest height like many tackles now a days. and JD was running a support line and tackled OFF the ball, he does not need to move his line to allow a tackler to get there, he didn't look back once.

I also thought JD's yellow card was harsh as he was competing for it, although again Russel's card was a yellow but harsh, and by the letter of the law they both were yellows.

Wales should have had a yellow in the second half, however I thought the penalty for the high tackle was harsh as SHC was already slipping/ducking under the tackle which made it worse.

and finally the ref blowing early/on time, the issue was Scotland did not have a player checking there was enough time and with Russell taking an age with the kick and the little handbags too, then when the ref asked whats the time to his touch judge after the kick had gone, by time he had the reply it was game over, it was an anti-climax.

Overall great game of rugby and best wishes to the Scotland fans on the remaining games, hope you can get 2 wins at least! (now that we have played, it would be helpful!!!)

JDizzle wrote:Scrum should improve with Lee back. North should come back for Cuthbert, all he did was get tackled behind the gainline today. Tips in for Lydiate too, the back row is just too similar at the moment. Scott in for JD is borderline, but I'd probably say make that change.

North is still as poor as Cuthbert in the areas Cuthbert is poor but Li Williams has to stay, Jenkins was poor so Lee coming back who was there last week won't make a difference we need a different L/Head and Sc Williams for JD is no brainer for me.

JD hasn't played much for Clermont, he missed few easy tackles today and try aside offered nothing.

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:Forgot to say actually, well done Wales. Absolutely dominated the high ball, which gave you a lot of go forward and field position. I understand you guys aren't playing the sort of rugby you'd like to see which is very frustrating, but if you get sick of playing badly but still winning we'll gladly swap with you?!

That was the one part of the game where you would have to say Wales were fantastic, so brave and committedand the kicks they were chasing pinpoint as well. Russell is a great prospect, but got a bit of game management to learn yet. Hopefully he will have taken note of how it should be done.

[quote="The Bachelor"]What does McBryde actually do? Shocking scrum and line-out.

Answers please on back of a stamp because you won't need much room to write it down.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Scrum should improve with Lee back. North should come back for Cuthbert, all he did was get tackled behind the gainline today. Tips in for Lydiate too, the back row is just too similar at the moment. Scott in for JD is borderline, but I'd probably say make that change.

North is still as poor as Cuthbert in the areas Cuthbert is poor but Li Williams has to stay, Jenkins was poor so Lee coming back who was there last week won't make a difference we need a different L/Head and Sc Williams for JD is no brainer for me.

JD hasn't played much for Clermont, he missed few easy tackles today and try aside offered nothing.

#

I've never seen North stopped as much, so far behind the gain line, as Cuthbert was today. He looked so indecisive. And at least North's club form has been good. I'm not fully on board with the Amos hype yet.

The Scottish scrum is weaker than the English scrum though, and we went back again today. Lee will improve it, of course he will because he's better than Jarvis. James is a penalty machine if a ref pings him early, but I haven't seen much of Rob Evans so I can't champion him really.

I think JDs struggles are being exagerrated. On balance I'd pick Williams, but he's not been that bad. Wales problems start before him. If we aren't getting good set piece ball then we can't get our strike runners over the gain line.

Oh well. Well done Wales. I still think we can get 2 wins, but we need to drop Strokosh , Laidlaw and Hamilton.

Got to say, I have a horrible feeling the French game was 1 step forward and this 5 steps back. Some of our attack was utter dross and there was just no focus whatsoever. It was just manic and confusion. Here's a few points I think hurt us:

- Lack of composure by Russell: Not every play has to be flash - sometimes just a good kick or pass suffices. Also, when kicking for touch, rule 1 must be to get it, rule 2 maximise distance - not the other way round.

- Speed (lack of) by Laidlaw: Too frequently he was slow to the ruck, giving the Welsh time to adjust and counter ruck. Also didn't allow him time to assess the options. Sam Hidalgo-Clyne was unlucky at the end not to score/assist (a more competent ref could have helped) but why bring him on with only a few minutes to go?

- The back-row: They just didn't have any impact - Harley was quiet, Cowan didn't distribute or dominate the breakdown and at times I thought Beattie had been taken off. Strockocsh was just aimless.

- Visser: Useless.

The positives:

- The front-five matched the Welsh in my books, and mauled effectively.

- Dunbar and Bennett: Dunbar probably got more turnovers than Cowan, and if he'd stayed on I reckon he should have been MoM. Bennett also had a good game - supporting SHC late on. Let down by Visser and Lamont.

Any optimism?

- We should get Tommy Seymour and Sean Maitland back for the Italy game, and Dunbar will get rest so he's fully fit for it.

- For the back-row, Denton will hopefully be fit again, and we might see Hamish Watson on the bench -he can't do any worse than Strockosh. I'd also like Toolis to feature on the bench.

- I can't see Cotter dropping Laidlaw, however, SHC injected real pace and enthusiasm when he came on.

I just feel there is no structure to our game when we are under the cosh in our own half. Be it through the kick off or phase play, it's just ruck-ruck-ruck-try and kick instead of ruck-kick. We almost make it too difficult for ourselves.

welshy824 (new) wrote:well that was a tense game!

Firstly commiserations to Scotland, you certainly are an improving side, you just need to get a win over one of the bigger teams in the 6nations and then confidence and self belief will increase. Also remember how young some of your players how, Russell showed he is still green at the international game with his miss kicks and taking an age with the conversion, however a senior player should have been speaking to the ref, and Hamilton was stupid for looking for a fight.

Wales, played a lot better than last week, our aerial game was excellent and thought halfpenny and faletau had one of their better games in a while, although Cuthbert and Roberts again fairly quiet. Liam Williams was also very good. We really need to work on our attack though as it is so one dimensional at the moment. Thought the set piece was a cause for concern again, although at least this week the front five actually put in a shift across the park. Tipuric also made a good impact.

Ok the ref. Frankly as adults you should all grow up, he was not fantastic by any stretch and frankly Scotland were lucky to not concede a yellow card in the first half and wales were rather fortunate to not concede one maybe two in the second half. However he did let the game flow much better than many refs and that made for an entertaining (if not nail biting) game.

Just focussing at a few decisions however, which have been discussed on here a lot.
It wasn't a high tackle on visser, it was chest height like many tackles now a days. and JD was running a support line and tackled OFF the ball, he does not need to move his line to allow a tackler to get there, he didn't look back once.

I also thought JD's yellow card was harsh as he was competing for it, although again Russel's card was a yellow but harsh, and by the letter of the law they both were yellows.

Wales should have had a yellow in the second half, however I thought the penalty for the high tackle was harsh as SHC was already slipping/ducking under the tackle which made it worse.

and finally the ref blowing early/on time, the issue was Scotland did not have a player checking there was enough time and with Russell taking an age with the kick and the little handbags too, then when the ref asked whats the time to his touch judge after the kick had gone, by time he had the reply it was game over, it was an anti-climax.

Overall great game of rugby and best wishes to the Scotland fans on the remaining games, hope you can get 2 wins at least! (now that we have played, it would be helpful!!!)

Sorry but the game changing decision was the blatant high tackle on Sam Hildago Clyne which saved a certain try. Ref called it a foul. If its a foul and saved a try then its a automatic yellow card and a penalty try in front of posts.
That ref is a disgrace doesnt know the rules

JDizzle wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Scrum should improve with Lee back. North should come back for Cuthbert, all he did was get tackled behind the gainline today. Tips in for Lydiate too, the back row is just too similar at the moment. Scott in for JD is borderline, but I'd probably say make that change.

North is still as poor as Cuthbert in the areas Cuthbert is poor but Li Williams has to stay, Jenkins was poor so Lee coming back who was there last week won't make a difference we need a different L/Head and Sc Williams for JD is no brainer for me.

JD hasn't played much for Clermont, he missed few easy tackles today and try aside offered nothing.

#

I've never seen North stopped as much, so far behind the gain line, as Cuthbert was today. He looked so indecisive. And at least North's club form has been good. I'm not fully on board with the Amos hype yet.

The Scottish scrum is weaker than the English scrum though, and we went back again today. Lee will improve it, of course he will because he's better than Jarvis. James is a penalty machine if a ref pings him early, but I haven't seen much of Rob Evans so I can't champion him really.

I think JDs struggles are being exagerrated. On balance I'd pick Williams, but he's not been that bad. Wales problems start before him. If we aren't getting good set piece ball then we can't get our strike runners over the gain line.

The problem with North being in good club form is that Saints use him more in a way that suits him but we don't. Amos has been on great form for us this season but it would mean a complete new 'style' from Gatland as we would have a very lightweight back 3 to what he normally goes for.

Evans himself has again been in great form for the Scarlets and for me James has always been the technically better scrummager than Jenkins. If I was being really brave then I would go with the Scarlets front row of Evans Owens and Lee and see how it goes.

Gatland again seemed reluctant to make the big calls, it was obvious Jenkins was getting pinged and struggling at the scrum so why not get him off.

Nematode wrote:Got to say, I have a horrible feeling the French game was 1 step forward and this 5 steps back. Some of our attack was utter dross and there was just no focus whatsoever. It was just manic and confusion. Here's a few points I think hurt us:

- Lack of composure by Russell: Not every play has to be flash - sometimes just a good kick or pass suffices. Also, when kicking for touch, rule 1 must be to get it, rule 2 maximise distance - not the other way round.

- Speed (lack of) by Laidlaw: Too frequently he was slow to the ruck, giving the Welsh time to adjust and counter ruck. Also didn't allow him time to assess the options. Sam Hidalgo-Clyne was unlucky at the end not to score/assist (a more competent ref could have helped) but why bring him on with only a few minutes to go?

- The back-row: They just didn't have any impact - Harley was quiet, Cowan didn't distribute or dominate the breakdown and at times I thought Beattie had been taken off. Strockocsh was just aimless.

- Visser: Useless.

The positives:

- The front-five matched the Welsh in my books, and mauled effectively.

- Dunbar and Bennett: Dunbar probably got more turnovers than Cowan, and if he'd stayed on I reckon he should have been MoM. Bennett also had a good game - supporting SHC late on. Let down by Visser and Lamont.

Any optimism?

- We should get Tommy Seymour and Sean Maitland back for the Italy game, and Dunbar will get rest so he's fully fit for it.

- For the back-row, Denton will hopefully be fit again, and we might see Hamish Watson on the bench  -he can't do any worse than Strockosh. I'd also like Toolis to feature on the bench.

- I can't see Cotter dropping Laidlaw, however, SHC injected real pace and enthusiasm when he came on.

I just feel there is no structure to our game when we are under the cosh in our own half. Be it through the kick off or phase play, it's just ruck-ruck-ruck-try and kick instead of ruck-kick. We almost make it too difficult for ourselves.

I agree ,
-bring in SHC to start
-seymour or maitland on wing
- denton in for beattie
- watson and toolis on bench
- drop strokers bring in barclay


next year we will have strauss, nel and du preez all who will walk into the side.

Nematode wrote:Got to say, I have a horrible feeling the French game was 1 step forward and this 5 steps back. Some of our attack was utter dross and there was just no focus whatsoever. It was just manic and confusion. Here's a few points I think hurt us:

- Lack of composure by Russell: Not every play has to be flash - sometimes just a good kick or pass suffices. Also, when kicking for touch, rule 1 must be to get it, rule 2 maximise distance - not the other way round.

- Speed (lack of) by Laidlaw: Too frequently he was slow to the ruck, giving the Welsh time to adjust and counter ruck. Also didn't allow him time to assess the options. Sam Hidalgo-Clyne was unlucky at the end not to score/assist (a more competent ref could have helped) but why bring him on with only a few minutes to go?

- The back-row: They just didn't have any impact - Harley was quiet, Cowan didn't distribute or dominate the breakdown and at times I thought Beattie had been taken off. Strockocsh was just aimless.

- Visser: Useless.

The positives:

- The front-five matched the Welsh in my books, and mauled effectively.

- Dunbar and Bennett: Dunbar probably got more turnovers than Cowan, and if he'd stayed on I reckon he should have been MoM. Bennett also had a good game - supporting SHC late on. Let down by Visser and Lamont.

Any optimism?

- We should get Tommy Seymour and Sean Maitland back for the Italy game, and Dunbar will get rest so he's fully fit for it.

- For the back-row, Denton will hopefully be fit again, and we might see Hamish Watson on the bench  -he can't do any worse than Strockosh. I'd also like Toolis to feature on the bench.

- I can't see Cotter dropping Laidlaw, however, SHC injected real pace and enthusiasm when he came on.

I just feel there is no structure to our game when we are under the cosh in our own half. Be it through the kick off or phase play, it's just ruck-ruck-ruck-try and kick instead of ruck-kick. We almost make it too difficult for ourselves.

Nem,

I would give Russell the benefit of the doubt still as he looks to be a great prospect, maybe your best for a long while but agree he needs to learn a bit of composure and def make his touches. Now Biggar is not a flair player by any stretch but he does the basics very well indeed and sometimes that's what you need.

For me Liam Williams has everything going for him but that butterfly celebration after every try, come on. This is rugby, not football. Celebrate, yes, but don't be arrogant about it.

I just can't fathom why he wasn't picked ahead of Cuthbert last week? He's fantastic under the high ball, runs great supporting lines and adds much needed creativity to the Welsh attack. I'd say there best back along with Halfpenny.

TJ wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Genuine question, if Wales had just kicked the kick off out of play, would that have been game over anyway?

Braindead from Hamilton too, just get up and run back.

No would have been a scrum on half was to Scotland.

Why? Scrum or lineout is game over?

The game is deemed not to have restarted I guess but that would have been the outcome if it occured.

(e)
If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

My interpretation of that is that the game would have been over had Wales kicked the kick off out?

 

The ball was dead after the try.

Nope.  Still time for the kivk off as it was before 80 mins.  Rusell should have drop kicked it and run to halfway - that would have made the point to the ref

There was time i ve already said that.

Nematode wrote:For me Liam Williams has everything going for him but that butterfly celebration after every try, come on. This is rugby, not football. Celebrate, yes, but don't be arrogant about it.

I just can't fathom why he wasn't picked ahead of Cuthbert last week? He's fantastic under the high ball, runs great supporting lines and adds much needed creativity to the Welsh attack. I'd say there best back along with Halfpenny.

He should have been picked ahead of North or Cuthbert not just necessarily Cuthbert.

bedfordwelsh wrote:
Nem,

I would give Russell the benefit of the doubt still as he looks to be a great prospect, maybe your best for a long while but agree he needs to learn a bit of composure and def make his touches.  Now Biggar is not a flair player by any stretch but he does the basics very well indeed and sometimes that's what you need.

He is a cracking player and is the best 10 we have by a country mile - after all, it was he who made the Hogg try. But you just can't miss touch like he did. And if you try too many flash plays, when you need them to come off the opposition can read you.

was Webb the last tackler when he went high to stop the try?

That could be the only reason why jackson didn't award a PT...he must have thought there was a chance the player may not have scored

As for his decision not to Yellow Card a welsh player, he did the same with the scottish earlier in the game so he was consistent. He also warned Wales that the next pen would result in a yellow then the ball was turned over

Wales won that in the 20 minutes after half time where they upped the intensity and won collisions and ultimately took their chances, Scotland still could and should have won it as they created far more

As for Wales, the win papers over the cracks of a creaking set piece and one dimensional game plan. Rob Evans and Samson Lee have to start and in Lee's absence I would even consider playing Paul James on the TH side.....or swallow my pride and pick up the phone to Adam Jones as this lack of depth will weaken any chance we may have to exit the group in the WC

No 7&1/2 wrote:

TJ wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Genuine question, if Wales had just kicked the kick off out of play, would that have been game over anyway?

Braindead from Hamilton too, just get up and run back.

No would have been a scrum on half was to Scotland.

Why? Scrum or lineout is game over?

The game is deemed not to have restarted I guess but that would have been the outcome if it occured.

(e)
If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

My interpretation of that is that the game would have been over had Wales kicked the kick off out?

 

The ball was dead after the try.

Nope.  Still time for the kivk off as it was before 80 mins.  Rusell should have drop kicked it and run to halfway - that would have made the point to the ref

There was time i ve already said that.

You're not allowed to kick the ball out on the full from re-start so as been mentioned above scrum or lineout would have been awarded. Few basic errors really, Hamilton fecking about on the ground Russell taking an age to convert it.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Scrum should improve with Lee back. North should come back for Cuthbert, all he did was get tackled behind the gainline today. Tips in for Lydiate too, the back row is just too similar at the moment. Scott in for JD is borderline, but I'd probably say make that change.

North is still as poor as Cuthbert in the areas Cuthbert is poor but Li Williams has to stay, Jenkins was poor so Lee coming back who was there last week won't make a difference we need a different L/Head and Sc Williams for JD is no brainer for me.

JD hasn't played much for Clermont, he missed few easy tackles today and try aside offered nothing.

#

I've never seen North stopped as much, so far behind the gain line, as Cuthbert was today. He looked so indecisive. And at least North's club form has been good. I'm not fully on board with the Amos hype yet.

The Scottish scrum is weaker than the English scrum though, and we went back again today. Lee will improve it, of course he will because he's better than Jarvis. James is a penalty machine if a ref pings him early, but I haven't seen much of Rob Evans so I can't champion him really.

I think JDs struggles are being exagerrated. On balance I'd pick Williams, but he's not been that bad. Wales problems start before him. If we aren't getting good set piece ball then we can't get our strike runners over the gain line.

The problem with North being in good club form is that Saints use him more in a way that suits him but we don't.  Amos has been on great form for us this season but it would mean a complete new 'style' from Gatland as we would have a very lightweight back 3 to what he normally goes for.

Evans himself has again been in great form for the Scarlets and for me James has always been the technically better scrummager than Jenkins.  If I was being really brave then I would go with the Scarlets front row of Evans Owens and Lee and see how it goes.

Gatland again seemed reluctant to make the big calls, it was obvious Jenkins was getting pinged and struggling at the scrum so why not get him off.

It's tough to say how well North might play for Wales at the moment though, seen as he was clearly not at 100% for the majority of last weeks game. He deserves to come back in, has enough credit in the bank to get another go. We didn't seem to use our wingers on the crash as much today, the few times Cuthbert got caught it was trying to get him around the Scottish defence behind dummy runners, something Amos might be better at. Still would go North/Leigh/Liam though.

Well, I haven't seen much to anything of Evans, but James offers nothing around the park and his scrummaging is overrated IMO. Gets pinged an awful lot. But starting Evans for the first time at the Stade would be a huge, huge call.

i thought Hidalgo-Clyne was already falling as Webb hit him.

Wales should definitely have had someone binned for persistent infringement - but so should Scotland earlier.

alive555 wrote:

welshy824 (new) wrote:well that was a tense game!

Firstly commiserations to Scotland, you certainly are an improving side, you just need to get a win over one of the bigger teams in the 6nations and then confidence and self belief will increase. Also remember how young some of your players how, Russell showed he is still green at the international game with his miss kicks and taking an age with the conversion, however a senior player should have been speaking to the ref, and Hamilton was stupid for looking for a fight.

Wales, played a lot better than last week, our aerial game was excellent and thought halfpenny and faletau had one of their better games in a while, although Cuthbert and Roberts again fairly quiet. Liam Williams was also very good. We really need to work on our attack though as it is so one dimensional at the moment. Thought the set piece was a cause for concern again, although at least this week the front five actually put in a shift across the park. Tipuric also made a good impact.

Ok the ref. Frankly as adults you should all grow up, he was not fantastic by any stretch and frankly Scotland were lucky to not concede a yellow card in the first half and wales were rather fortunate to not concede one maybe two in the second half. However he did let the game flow much better than many refs and that made for an entertaining (if not nail biting) game.

Just focussing at a few decisions however, which have been discussed on here a lot.
It wasn't a high tackle on visser, it was chest height like many tackles now a days. and JD was running a support line and tackled OFF the ball, he does not need to move his line to allow a tackler to get there, he didn't look back once.

I also thought JD's yellow card was harsh as he was competing for it, although again Russel's card was a yellow but harsh, and by the letter of the law they both were yellows.

Wales should have had a yellow in the second half, however I thought the penalty for the high tackle was harsh as SHC was already slipping/ducking under the tackle which made it worse.

and finally the ref blowing early/on time, the issue was Scotland did not have a player checking there was enough time and with Russell taking an age with the kick and the little handbags too, then when the ref asked whats the time to his touch judge after the kick had gone, by time he had the reply it was game over, it was an anti-climax.

Overall great game of rugby and best wishes to the Scotland fans on the remaining games, hope you can get 2 wins at least! (now that we have played, it would be helpful!!!)

Sorry but the game changing decision was the blatant high tackle on Sam Hildago Clyne which saved a certain try. Ref called it a foul. If its a foul and saved a try then its a automatic yellow card and a penalty try in front of posts.
That ref is a disgrace doesnt know the rules  

That's what I thought. If it wasn't a high tackle, it wasn't a penalty. If it was, then unless the ref though that he wasnt going to score - which looked certain - it was a yellow minimum and probably a penalty try. And then it didn't look, from the angle I saw, that the ball went forward.

But Scotland still should have won despite the ref.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

TJ wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Genuine question, if Wales had just kicked the kick off out of play, would that have been game over anyway?

Braindead from Hamilton too, just get up and run back.

No would have been a scrum on half was to Scotland.

Why? Scrum or lineout is game over?

The game is deemed not to have restarted I guess but that would have been the outcome if it occured.

(e)
If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

My interpretation of that is that the game would have been over had Wales kicked the kick off out?

 

The ball was dead after the try.

Nope.  Still time for the kivk off as it was before 80 mins.  Rusell should have drop kicked it and run to halfway - that would have made the point to the ref

There was time i ve already said that.

You're not allowed to kick the ball out on the full from re-start so as been mentioned above scrum or lineout would have been awarded.  Few basic errors really, Hamilton fecking about on the ground Russell taking an age to convert it.

I just watched the Wales-France game from 2010 and Michalak basically just grubbered the ball into touch about 5 metres from the half way line and the ref blew for the game over.

Nematode wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:
Nem,

I would give Russell the benefit of the doubt still as he looks to be a great prospect, maybe your best for a long while but agree he needs to learn a bit of composure and def make his touches.  Now Biggar is not a flair player by any stretch but he does the basics very well indeed and sometimes that's what you need.

He is a cracking player and is the best 10 we have by a country mile - after all, it was he who made the Hogg try. But you just can't miss touch like he did. And if you try too many flash plays, when you need them to come off the opposition can read you.

Easy to forget how inexperienced Finn Russell actually is and so we have to cut him a little bit of slack. He made some mistakes today and no doubt he will make a few more over his next few games but he will continue to improve. He has got the skills and the attitude and as we all know we have not had a 10 like him foe a long time. I personally think that Laidlaw was more culpable for us losing that game and he has got the experience to have know how to finish off such a chance on the line. I am all for S H-C starting now, he looks ready!

He was poor in the AIs and Cuthbert had the better AI series by some margin both have same weaknesses and Cuthberts strike rate is higher than Norths so has some credit to.

First and foremost I want my props to scrummage which Jenkins is struggling with, I know James splits the debate but he's the better scrummager, yes we lose Jenkins ability around the park but if we have no platform in first place all rest is pointless.

James has played in almost all the games for Bath this year and especially in all their big league and cup games so he can't be that bad given the standard in the Guinness

bedfordwelsh wrote:He was poor in the AIs and Cuthbert had the better AI series by some margin both have same weaknesses and Cuthberts strike rate is higher than Norths so has some credit to.

First and foremost I want my props to scrummage which Jenkins is struggling with, I know James splits the debate but he's the better scrummager, yes we lose Jenkins ability around the park but if we have no platform in first place all rest is pointless.

James has played in almost all the games for Bath this year and especially in all their big league and cup games so he can't be that bad given the standard in the Guinness

time to try Rob Evans, I am not bothered if we lose our remaining games if we unearth a decent scrummaging LH (as James can get on the wrong side of refereees from time to time) and a back up to Samson Lee

JDizzle wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

TJ wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

JDizzle wrote:Genuine question, if Wales had just kicked the kick off out of play, would that have been game over anyway?

Braindead from Hamilton too, just get up and run back.

No would have been a scrum on half was to Scotland.

Why? Scrum or lineout is game over?

The game is deemed not to have restarted I guess but that would have been the outcome if it occured.

(e)
If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

My interpretation of that is that the game would have been over had Wales kicked the kick off out?

 

The ball was dead after the try.

Nope.  Still time for the kivk off as it was before 80 mins.  Rusell should have drop kicked it and run to halfway - that would have made the point to the ref

There was time i ve already said that.

You're not allowed to kick the ball out on the full from re-start so as been mentioned above scrum or lineout would have been awarded.  Few basic errors really, Hamilton fecking about on the ground Russell taking an age to convert it.

I just watched the Wales-France game from 2010 and Michalak basically just grubbered the ball into touch about 5 metres from the half way line and the ref blew for the game over.

If rolled in though its not counted as deliberately out on the full

But it did nt go ten so should have either a retake or scrum. Law 13.8 if you want to look it up.

GavinDragon wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:He was poor in the AIs and Cuthbert had the better AI series by some margin both have same weaknesses and Cuthberts strike rate is higher than Norths so has some credit to.

First and foremost I want my props to scrummage which Jenkins is struggling with, I know James splits the debate but he's the better scrummager, yes we lose Jenkins ability around the park but if we have no platform in first place all rest is pointless.

James has played in almost all the games for Bath this year and especially in all their big league and cup games so he can't be that bad given the standard in the Guinness

time to try Rob Evans, I am not bothered if we lose our remaining games if we unearth a decent scrummaging LH (as James can get on the wrong side of refereees from time to time) and a back up to Samson Lee

GD,

Like I said if being brave then I would go with the Scarlets front row as I think Owens is a better all round option than Hibbard but like JD said it would be a very young and inexperienced front row then going to Paris but fortune favours the bold as they. Can't see it happening though as Gatland and Co will think all is rosey again the Welsh house.

No 7&1/2 wrote:But it did nt go ten so should have either a retake or scrum. Law 13.8 if you want to look it up.

Yeah if didn't go 10 refs again eh lol