Ireland V France

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IRELAND v FRANCE
14 February 2015
KO: 17:00
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Referee: Wayne Barnes (RFU)
AR1: Nigel Owens (WRU)
AR2: Stuart Berry (SARU)
TMO: Graham Hughes (RFU)

IRELAND

15 Rob Kearney
14 Tommy Bowe
13 Jared Payne
12 Robbie Henshaw
11 Simon Zebo
10 Johnny Sexton
9 Conor Murray

1 Jack McGrath
2 Rory Best
3 Mike Ross
4 Devin Toner
5 Paul O'Connell (c)
6 Peter O'Mahony
7 Sean O'Brien
8 Jamie Heaslip

16 Sean Cronin, 17 Cian Healy, 18 Martin Moore, 19 Iain Henderson, 20 Jordi Murphy, 21 Isaac Boss, 22 Ian Madigan, 23 Felix Jones

FRANCE

15 Scott Spedding
14 Yoann Huget
13 Mathieu Bastareaud
12 Wesley Fofana
11 Teddy Thomas
10 Camille Lopez
9 Rory Kockott

1 Eddy Ben Arous
2 Guilhem Guirado
3 Rabah Slimani
4 Pascal Papé
5 Yoann Maestri
6 Thierry Dusautoir (c)
7 Bernard Le Roux
8 Damien Chouly

16 Benjamin Kayser, 17 Uini Atonio, 18 Vincent Debaty, 19 Romain Taofifenua, 20 Loann Goujon, 21 Morgan Parra, 22 Rémi Talès, 23 Rémi Lamerat

*****
This is an interesting battle, and very much a case of brains v brawn.
French flair is long gone, they now rely on the likes of Bastareaud and their pack of overweight lumps to get over the line.
Ireland are very much a team of robots, Joe gives instructions on how to dismantle a team like IKEA gives instructions on how to make a cupboard. With the right personnel in Sexton, SOB and the likes of Heaslip at the helm, they should be able to devour the French fatties like they're the last square of a Kinder Bueno.
All logic points to an Irish victory, but as so often happens the French defy logic.

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:2 things stick out in my mind Sin. The Tuilagi miss pre world cup, and the Miss against NZ in 60-0 third test when he got absolutely swatted trying to make a cover tackle. He was made look like a schools player on both those occasions. He's a good player, but I'm not convinced he's Ireland's answer. Also - I don't think recent performances can be taken too seriously -Cardiff's defence is fairly brutal, worst in Pro 12 behind the Italian teams. Jimmy Gopperth of all people ran amok against them...

On Henshaw- he has a serious motor. He looks to be running flat out all the time. He's made good yardage to be fair also - I don't think he's merely a defensive goon. Haven't seen any official stats yet though to confirm it.

You have to go back 4 years. Perhaps he learned something back then. More recently in the 6Ns as a centre he didn't miss a single tackle in 5 games.

The wings are harder to defend now bearing in mind it is much harder to take down someone like George North when he gets to run at pace at you.

And once again, I did not say that Henshaw was only a defensive goon. Far from it. My point is that is how he has been deployed so far by Schmidt.

edit: just on Cardiff - just watch the clip and you will see what Earls could bring to the table in a congested midfield.  

Doubt we win that game yesterday with Earls at centre. I've seen enough of Earls "dancing". Against USA or Canada ok but seriously against England or France? Current midfield are doing a great job and plenty coming through (olding, mccloskey etc).

Blanko wrote:

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:2 things stick out in my mind Sin. The Tuilagi miss pre world cup, and the Miss against NZ in 60-0 third test when he got absolutely swatted trying to make a cover tackle. He was made look like a schools player on both those occasions. He's a good player, but I'm not convinced he's Ireland's answer. Also - I don't think recent performances can be taken too seriously -Cardiff's defence is fairly brutal, worst in Pro 12 behind the Italian teams. Jimmy Gopperth of all people ran amok against them...

On Henshaw- he has a serious motor. He looks to be running flat out all the time. He's made good yardage to be fair also - I don't think he's merely a defensive goon. Haven't seen any official stats yet though to confirm it.

You have to go back 4 years. Perhaps he learned something back then. More recently in the 6Ns as a centre he didn't miss a single tackle in 5 games.

The wings are harder to defend now bearing in mind it is much harder to take down someone like George North when he gets to run at pace at you.

And once again, I did not say that Henshaw was only a defensive goon. Far from it. My point is that is how he has been deployed so far by Schmidt.

edit: just on Cardiff - just watch the clip and you will see what Earls could bring to the table in a congested midfield.  

Doubt we win that game yesterday with Earls at centre. I've seen enough of Earls "dancing". Against USA or Canada ok but seriously against England or France? Current midfield are doing a great job and plenty coming through (olding, mccloskey etc).

He has only played once against both Canada (his debut) and USA in the world cup in his 31 starts for Ireland. You haven't seen a lot of him then. (He has scored a try against England by the way and he has a couple against Wales when they were in their pomp). And he was the centre for Ireland when Ireland drew with France in the Stade de France.

Olding & McCloskey need to stay fit and get a run of games first of all and then we will see if they are the real deal or not.

Exiled Gael wrote:I agree.  While at times Murray could definitely been quicker, Sexton's distribution was actually pretty average, maybe even poor.  But the pack were hammered up front, make no mistake about it.  France had the weight of numbers in the midfield and around the fringes more or less the entire match.  How on earth anyone can think the Irish midfield is the problem after watching yesterday and the Italy match is beyond me.  It doesn't bear the weight of even cursory analysis.  

While your analysis is appreciated, you do not need to be so dismissive of the analysis others may give. Nobody has claimed that the midfield is the problem, but from what I can see it isn't working particularly well in attack and they are being used in attack as physical battering rams, which is strange for the likes of Jared Payne. Against South Africa I don't think Payne threw a pass and Henshaw made 2 metres. I don't see how this is a good use of their skills and I have seen no improvement.

The lack of a good platform to work from is a factor of course, but another obvious one is the fact both players are out of position. Both Henshaw and Payne are better with more space. I can live with it for the 6 nations as the other options are injured, but when they return, if we want a physical direct running 12 then it is time to select McCloskey, and if we want to see more creativity then we look at Olding.

But mainly because all they are being asked to do is tidy up slow ball. At test level you're going to need centres to try and generate go-forward off slow ball. No-one available is going to look any better, Earls and Fitzgerald will just go sideways and backwards given the ball Henshaw and Payne are getting to work with. There's really not much of an argument that changing the centres will change anything as far I can see.

Rory, I didn't see any of the the Toulon v Ulster games - how did Olding get on up against Bastuarad & co.

Sin é wrote:Rory, I didn't see any of the the Toulon v Ulster games - how did Olding get on up against Bastuarad & co.

He only played in the first one. He did okay, he wasn't exposed. Like the Irish players yesterday, Ulster needed to use 2 or 3 tacklers on him but they didn't make massive yards down his channel. He's a very solid guy, he's not a lightweight.

Notch wrote:But mainly because all they are being asked to do is tidy up slow ball. At test level you're going to need centres to try and generate go-forward off slow ball. No-one available is going to look any better, Earls and Fitzgerald will just go sideways and backwards given the ball Henshaw and Payne are getting to work with. There's really not much of an argument that changing the centres will change anything as far I can see.

That is why I haven't called for Earls or Fitzgerald, as they aren't going to make any difference. There are no changes worth making until after the 6 nations is over. After that if we want to continue playing centres with the mindset of simply tidying up slow ball, then drop Payne and move Henshaw back to 13, and bring McCloskey in at 12. Square pegs in square holes. However I would rather see centres selected for their attacking nous but as you say we haven't had a good platform to work from yet.

Olding could be great however as he is actually very good at making ground and creating opportunities with very little space to work with. He would add much needed creativity in the irish back line.

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:Rory, I didn't see any of the the Toulon v Ulster games - how did Olding get on up against Bastuarad & co.

He only played in the first one. He did okay, he wasn't exposed. Like the Irish players yesterday, Ulster needed to use 2 or 3 tacklers on him but they didn't make massive yards down his channel. He's a very solid guy, he's not a lightweight.

That was the 60-0 game, was it? Ronan O'Gara mentioned that Olding was a big guy alright. Seems to be picking up a lot of injuries though.

I want to see centres selected for their attacking nous, but I don't think these players aren't selected for that reason. It just hasn't been accurate enough in the ruck and around the fringes. I'm still holding judgement until I see this pairing in a team that isn't losing all the collisions.

Notch wrote:I want to see centres selected for their attacking nous, but I don't think these players aren't selected for that reason. It just hasn't been accurate enough in the ruck and around the fringes. I'm still holding judgement until I see this pairing in a team that isn't losing all the collisions.

Fair enough, but hopefully when we sort that out we will also have Olding/McCloskey to choose from, and we can actually see players in their best position. Also from an Ulster perspective with the form that Darren Cave is in, I would be very annoyed to see Payne simply walk back into the team at 13. If sense prevails he will be back at fullback.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:Rory, I didn't see any of the the Toulon v Ulster games - how did Olding get on up against Bastuarad & co.

He only played in the first one. He did okay, he wasn't exposed. Like the Irish players yesterday, Ulster needed to use 2 or 3 tacklers on him but they didn't make massive yards down his channel. He's a very solid guy, he's not a lightweight.

That was the 60-0 game, was it? Ronan O'Gara mentioned that Olding was a big guy alright. Seems to be picking up a lot of injuries though.

It is a worry, he was pretty injury prone at school as well. However his injuries so far seem more unlucky rather than any reoccurring thing. Knee ligaments, concussion, elbow.. all pretty unlucky injuries.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:Rory, I didn't see any of the the Toulon v Ulster games - how did Olding get on up against Bastuarad & co.

He only played in the first one. He did okay, he wasn't exposed. Like the Irish players yesterday, Ulster needed to use 2 or 3 tacklers on him but they didn't make massive yards down his channel. He's a very solid guy, he's not a lightweight.

That was the 60-0 game, was it? Ronan O'Gara mentioned that Olding was a big guy alright. Seems to be picking up a lot of injuries though.

No, there was no 60-0 game it was 60-23 and Olding got injured in that one. It was the first game I was talking about, 23-13.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Notch wrote:I want to see centres selected for their attacking nous, but I don't think these players aren't selected for that reason. It just hasn't been accurate enough in the ruck and around the fringes. I'm still holding judgement until I see this pairing in a team that isn't losing all the collisions.

Fair enough, but hopefully when we sort that out we will also have Olding/McCloskey to choose from, and we can actually see players in their best position. Also from an Ulster perspective with the form that Darren Cave is in, I would be very annoyed to see Payne simply walk back into the team at 13. If sense prevails he will be back at fullback.

I understand that based on Ulster form and I agree, although Cave played as poorly as Payne has all season against Treviso, but I can't help but think your thoughts on the Ireland centres are based on their provincial form not their form in the green jersey.

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Notch wrote:I want to see centres selected for their attacking nous, but I don't think these players aren't selected for that reason. It just hasn't been accurate enough in the ruck and around the fringes. I'm still holding judgement until I see this pairing in a team that isn't losing all the collisions.

Fair enough, but hopefully when we sort that out we will also have Olding/McCloskey to choose from, and we can actually see players in their best position. Also from an Ulster perspective with the form that Darren Cave is in, I would be very annoyed to see Payne simply walk back into the team at 13. If sense prevails he will be back at fullback.

I understand that based on Ulster form and I agree, although Cave played as poorly as Payne has all season against Treviso, but I can't help but think your thoughts on the Ireland centres are based on their provincial form not their form in the green jersey.

It is based on the irish performances, with ball in hand, where Ireland as a whole have flattered to decieve. Provincial form comes into it though as I have seen Payne at his best from fullback, and I have seen Henshaw at his best at 13, where they usually play at their provinces. I haven't seen either at their best yet for Ireland. As you say, lack of quality ball is a factor, but the fact they are out of position is another.

Anyway, this is going in circles and to be honest it probably is irrelevant, at least for the 6 nations. They will be the centres for the rest of the tournament.

Yet another typical Schmidt coached performance. Efficient, executed very well by the players (mostly) and no real surprises. The players are probably disappointed with the final score and the final 20 mins as was alluded to by POC.

Not sure what the discussion over Henshaw and Payne is. Unless there is an injury they will be the centres for the world cup not to mind the rest of the 6ns. Anyone who thinks otherwise doesnt know Holy Joe's approach. The only possible change would be Earls or Fitz on the bench but even that is a long shot. Earls possibly because Schmidt likes him.

Overall no complaints on the players all generally played for the "greater good" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnqPrDN77Xg). This is what happens to Irish rugby players who dont conform....Kearney had a 3/3 ratio on his tackles and his attempt on vaiiiiiiiiiminiminihaha was rubbish...so he better watch out....

I see Fly has taken time to seriously consider our performance and write an academic style treatise on the faults of Murray's game in terms of his slowness at the breakdown and getting the ball away where our fleetfooted array of out of this world backline would glide effortlessly onto front foot ball and beating defenders left right and centre with offloads, intricate running lines etc etc would score tremendously brilliant tries that had us all ooohing and aaahing at the wonderfulness of St Joe's coaching skills because that is what he was going to bring to the table as our southern hemisphere version of Jebus/Krishna/Buddha and Confucius all rolled into one.......except for one thing Murray and getting the ball away quickly...that is the problem...who knew!!! And I thought it was just that Joe was a pragmatist...

Everyone kept on saying how big the French were and that we wouldn't be able to deal with their physicality, even when the collective weight of the two packs were shown and Ireland's were over 30kg heavier. This mentality of the Irish people is getting exhausting.

Great performance - looked like we were going to put France to the sword at half time but the power of France's bench and some terrible calls from that gobshoite Wayne Barnes left us needing an absolutely heroic defensive performance to keep us on track for second successive title.

Sexton, apart from butchering that try by passing to Payne on the decoy, was just awesome - one of the best individual displays from an Irish player I've seen.

I thought Henshaw was brilliant again and Payne, whatever the haters say, had a super game in attack and especially defense to help shackle the French midfield. Bowe, Zebo and Kearney were really strong under the high ball and along with the tactical kicking from Murray and Sexton it was a bit of a masterclass all round.

O'Connell and SOB really fronted up against a monster French pack and Hendo looked a beast when he came on, single handedly effecting 3 turnovers in a row, which Barnes bizarrely awarded as French scrums.

Job done roll on round 3.

rodders wrote:Great performance - looked like we were going to put France to the sword at half time but the power of France's bench and some terrible calls from that gobshoite Wayne Barnes left us needing an absolutely heroic defensive performance to keep us on track for second successive title.

Sexton, apart from butchering that try by passing to Payne on the decoy, was just awesome - one of the best individual displays from an Irish player I've seen.

I thought Henshaw was brilliant again and Payne, whatever the haters say, had a super game in attack and especially defense to help shackle the French midfield. Bowe, Zebo and Kearney were really strong under the high ball and along with the tactical kicking from Murray and Sexton it was a bit of a masterclass all round.

O'Connell and SOB really fronted up against a monster French pack and Hendo looked a beast when he came on, single handedly effecting 3 turnovers in a row, which Barnes bizarrely awarded as French scrums.    

Job done roll on round 3.    

Once again, I really have to say that I have not seen hate or any criticism directed towards Payne and his performance. Some, like myself simply believe that he would be (and more suited too) starting at 15.

Three games in and Henshaw and Payne look like one of the best defensive center partnerships in the NH and the signs from France is that offensively they are starting to click too.

At club level he's a fantastic 15 but he doesn't get tested under the high ball, were he isn't particularly good - I'd imagine this is why Joe considers him a centre.

Joe is coaching the side not to throw offloads or 50:50 passes - therefore the centers need to hit hard lines and win the contact and gainline - that is what they are doing, and doing well.

BODisGOD wrote:Everyone kept on saying how big the French were and that we wouldn't be able to deal with their physicality, even when the collective weight of the two packs were shown and Ireland's were over 30kg heavier. This mentality of the Irish people is getting exhausting.

Players like Mike Ross and Devin Toner might be heavy, but they aren't as physical as their French counterparts. It's not a size issue its the fact that the French have some explosive ball carriers. Physicality and weight are not the same thing- they definitely have a more physical side than us.

Defensive and Schmidt is what I take from your post rodders and you are correct. Schmidt is making this team into a team of robots who lack creativity. Exactly what Gatland has done to Wales, will work for a while until teams find them out. I believe that Lancaster has already worked this out and Ireland will get tonked by England.

We are at home...it is England...we have a tight defence...I fully expect us to win.

Notch wrote:

BODisGOD wrote:Everyone kept on saying how big the French were and that we wouldn't be able to deal with their physicality, even when the collective weight of the two packs were shown and Ireland's were over 30kg heavier. This mentality of the Irish people is getting exhausting.

Players like Mike Ross and Devin Toner might be heavy, but they aren't as physical as their French counterparts. It's not a size issue its the fact that the French have some explosive ball carriers. Physicality and weight are not the same thing- they definitely have a more physical side than us.

France's tight 5 were all on the light side apart from Maestri, and they're back row definitely wouldn't be a better ball carrying unit then ours!

I disagree - Schmidt knows exactly what he's doing - that's why we've won 9 on the trot and will, in my opinion win 10, in two weeks.

Unfortunately some will still complain no doubt - but Schmidt has exposed the achilles heal of most international teams - that they all defend flatter than club teams and rather than run your way in to trouble and against massive physical sides - like Scotland today - that if you kick accurately and out work and defend without the ball better than the opposition then you are very difficult to beat.

It wasn't perfect against France - but if we hadn't butchered the try and conceded the soft yellow it would have been a comfortable home win.

I am not going to lie, I am not that confident looking forward to the England game. I hope to be proving wrong, but I can't see past an England victory.

According to ESPN Payne ran 38 metres - the most of any player bar Kearney and probably more than BOD and D'arcy combined for the last 2 seasons.

Payne and Henshaw ran double the distance of Basterau and Fofana.

Defensively 29 tackles between them and 4 missed, 3 by Henshaw.

That is outstanding by any measure.

38 meters eh rodders, fantastic absolutely fantastic. I imagine that most of those meters were made off the restart (where Bowe and Payne worked admittedly well together).

How many chances have Ireland created? 160mins of rugby and only 2 tries scored against Italy, ITALY, the same team a misfiring England team put loads past...

Not the midfields problem but summed up in the defensive robotic approach from Ireland. Ireland will be found out very soon, much as Wales have been found out.

rodders wrote:According to ESPN Payne ran 38 metres - the most of any player bar Kearney and probably more than BOD and D'arcy combined for the last 2 seasons.

Payne and Henshaw ran double the distance of Basterau and Fofana.

Defensively 29 tackles between them and 4 missed, 3 by Henshaw.

That is outstanding by any measure.  

BOD'n'D'arcy were too busy trying to score up the other end usually in their heyday Tackling is for mugs and carthorses.

Nachos Jones wrote:38 meters eh rodders, fantastic absolutely fantastic. I imagine that most of those meters were made off the restart (where Bowe and Payne worked admittedly well together).

How many chances have Ireland created? 160mins of rugby and only 2 tries scored against Italy, ITALY, the same team a misfiring England team put loads past...

Not the midfields problem but summed up in the defensive robotic approach from Ireland. Ireland will be found out very soon, much as Wales have been found out.

Last season Ireland scored the most points and tries in the competition under Schmidt, the new mid-field partnership is new and inexperienced, give it time. Your sweeping statements are pompous and arrogant.

7 tries against Italy last year! (and 3 tries against France) = 10 tries

Sin é wrote:7 tries against Italy last year! (and 3 tries against France)  = 10 tries

BOD'n'D'arce, God love'em.....

Nachos Jones wrote:38 meters eh rodders, fantastic absolutely fantastic. I imagine that most of those meters were made off the restart (where Bowe and Payne worked admittedly well together).

How many chances have Ireland created? 160mins of rugby and only 2 tries scored against Italy, ITALY, the same team a misfiring England team put loads past...

Not the midfields problem but summed up in the defensive robotic approach from Ireland. Ireland will be found out very soon, much as Wales have been found out.

You seem to be looking forward to it,do you think there is someone out there who could do a better job than Schmidt?

Nachos Jones wrote:38 meters eh rodders, fantastic absolutely fantastic. I imagine that most of those meters were made off the restart (where Bowe and Payne worked admittedly well together).

How many chances have Ireland created? 160mins of rugby and only 2 tries scored against Italy, ITALY, the same team a misfiring England team put loads past...

Not the midfields problem but summed up in the defensive robotic approach from Ireland. Ireland will be found out very soon, much as Wales have been found out.

I could flip that on its head and say the same Italy that on their home ground managed 3 points against us, and didn't look like scoring a try in 80 mins scored 3 tries against England at Twickenham...where their points differential was only 7 points greater than ours.

I don't see any parallel with Wales at all, who have 1 plan based on power - I see parallels with Leinster and the all blacks in the way we are playing - do the basics better than the opposition, if its on then play and if it's not go for the percentage....the way to 'find that out' is to play the percentages better and not many sides out there can.

If England beat us it will be through the power of their tight 5 and break down physicality through their backrow - it won't be because Schmidt didn't select Earls or Fitzgerald.

Everyone complained about average Dave getting picked ahead of Zebo...its same old same old...the common denominator is that we keep winning and people keep complaining, irrespective of who is picked.    

I'll take a robotic grandslam any day, versus a 3rd place humanoid one.

I can't understand the call from many on here to drop Jones from the 23. He is our only other full time full back in the squad and is a very, very good player.
Zebo, Payne and Henshaw could all do a job if needed but I think Mike Brown going off so early against Italy yesterday showed the value of having a specialist full back on the bench. England had to make three positional changes to accommodate one substitution and I doubt they would have run with the back line they ended up with even in training. They got away with it against a very poor Italian team yesterday but that was a huge disruption.
Anyway, delighted with the results, the effort of all the players and the tactical changes on the hoof during yesterday's game. England are looking pretty decent at the moment as well so I hope we can go 10 for 10.
Can't see that anyone has let the team down thus far so can't see many changes apart from Healy coming in to start with McGrath on the bench.
Back row combination will be interesting if Heaslip is out. Murphy has to be favourite to start at 8 but ideally you'd want a bit more grunt against that monstrous English unit. Robshaw has looked superb so far. Would love to see Henderson starting at 6 with POM at 8.
PS, I thought Barnes had a decent game.

You watch the U20s game Rodders? Playing heads up rugby doesn't mean its losing rugby.

BODisGOD wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:38 meters eh rodders, fantastic absolutely fantastic. I imagine that most of those meters were made off the restart (where Bowe and Payne worked admittedly well together).

How many chances have Ireland created? 160mins of rugby and only 2 tries scored against Italy, ITALY, the same team a misfiring England team put loads past...

Not the midfields problem but summed up in the defensive robotic approach from Ireland. Ireland will be found out very soon, much as Wales have been found out.

Last season Ireland scored the most points and tries in the competition under Schmidt, the new mid-field partnership is new and inexperienced, give it time. Your sweeping statements are pompous and arrogant.

Pompous and arrogant? I have my opinions like you do, never have I called people pompous and arrogant for their opinions. I may be wrong, probably am but opinions are opinions and everyone is entitled to theirs.

I like Schmidt but believe that he is turning Ireland into a very predictable outfit, similar to what Gatland has done to Wales. Worked very well at first but is now slowly being found out and soon totally found out.

Vomit all you like but you clearly show a lack of class and willingness to debate.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:38 meters eh rodders, fantastic absolutely fantastic. I imagine that most of those meters were made off the restart (where Bowe and Payne worked admittedly well together).

How many chances have Ireland created? 160mins of rugby and only 2 tries scored against Italy, ITALY, the same team a misfiring England team put loads past...

Not the midfields problem but summed up in the defensive robotic approach from Ireland. Ireland will be found out very soon, much as Wales have been found out.

You seem to be looking forward to it,do you think there is someone out there who could do a better job than Schmidt?

As an Irishman, of course not. I would like to see Ireland winning every game they play, I am just very concerned of the direction in which they are heading. I don't believe that there is a better candidate out there to lead Ireland right now but I do have my concerns over what Schmidt is doing. Not an offence, just an opinion.

Submachine wrote:I can't understand the call from many on here to drop Jones from the 23. He is our only other full time full back in the squad and is a very, very good player.
Zebo, Payne and Henshaw could all do a job if needed but I think Mike Brown going off so early against Italy yesterday showed the value of having a specialist full back on the bench. England had to make three positional changes to accommodate one substitution and I doubt they would have run with the back line they ended up with even in training. They got away with it against a very poor Italian team yesterday but that was a huge disruption.
Anyway, delighted with the results, the effort of all the players and the tactical changes on the hoof during yesterday's game. England are looking pretty decent at the moment as well so I hope we can go 10 for 10.
Can't see that anyone has let the team down thus far so can't see many changes apart from Healy coming in to start with McGrath on the bench.
Back row combination will be interesting if Heaslip is out. Murphy has to be favourite to start at 8 but ideally you'd want a bit more grunt against that monstrous English unit. Robshaw has looked superb so far. Would love to see Henderson starting at 6 with POM at 8.
PS, I thought Barnes had a decent game.

Submarine, I'd regard Payne as a specialist fullback (and Zebo as a very good one as well, though he doesn't specialise as one).

Sin é wrote:You watch the U20s game Rodders?  Playing heads up rugby doesn't mean its losing rugby.

Heads up rugby is not just about scoring tries. It's about identifying where the space is on the field.

I think we're the second best head's up rugby side in the world right now. We weren't getting quick ball against France and identified the space in behind really well.

Everyone wants to see tries - but Scotland are a classic example of a side who doesn't understand that scoring tries isn't the only way to win, and sometimes it's not the way to win at all.

That just isn't true Rodders, the better teams create space and ensure quick ball, you didn't manage either against France. It was a good win against a fairly monstrous French side but don't go over board.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:You watch the U20s game Rodders?  Playing heads up rugby doesn't mean its losing rugby.

Heads up rugby is not just about scoring tries. It's about identifying where the space is on the field.

I think we're the second best head's up rugby side in the world right now. We weren't getting quick ball against France and identified the space in behind really well.

Everyone wants to see tries - but Scotland are a classic example of a side who doesn't understand that scoring tries isn't the only way to win, and sometimes it's not the way to win at all.

My definition of heads up rugby is to see an opportunity and not be afraid to go for it - what I see is just very conservative, safe rugby that puts huge physical demands on the forwards and why someone like Cronin gets a game even though he is poorish/unreliable in two of the key attributes of a good hooker.

Predictable? Absolutely. We make our tackles. We win our line outs. We are (mostly) solid at the scrum. We will:prioritise keeping the ball for small gains in tight spaces, force the opposition into providing penalty chances, slow down opposition ruck ball, kick for territory when the option is there, contest 80% of our box kicks, contest all switch restarts and win most of them.
Most importantly we will learn during the game, strengthen our own weaknesses and identify the oppositions. There will be games where we score a heap of tries again but for now I'm delighted to say we have what we have been crying out for for years. Consistency.
Every player who comes in, does the job assigned them. They all know the script inside out and keep delivering. We will be beaten again, possibly in our next game but we will not be beaten easily under this coach.
Get on board folks. Resistance, as they say, is futile.

Keith Wood reckons Ireland have been playing a limited game plan very efficiently out of pure necessity given the large number of players that have been injured recently. Now that they're coming back we'll see the team try more things in attack.

With Healy and O'Brien back and hopefully breaking tackles the opportunities to attack will increase. With the lineout working better than in the Autumn and Sexton back, again there should be more opportunities to attack.

But we will not try and attack when it is not the right option. We'll play it safe, and hopefully put the opposition under pressure with a well executed kicking game. Between the injuries to Healy/O'Brien/Sexton, the malfunctioning lineout in the Autumn, the constant disruptions to the backrow lineup, and this weekend the physicality of the French at the breakdown, we haven't seen much of Ireland's attacking game in a while. But they keep winning anyway.

If we add the tries we can beat England. If we don't, England look to strong. They'll happily match us in boring efficiency all day, but also look dangerous in attack now.

I think what all of us will agree on is that Ireland have become perhaps the most Pragmatic side in the ranking top 10.... apart perhaps from the ABs themselves.  

It seems the theory is do enough and defend it - do enough and defend it; and don't wreck it by getting loose or getting kocky.

So far so good.  I like that trick - I do. It requires a lot of talent to back it up but it's a good attitude.

You might say England over-cook their efforts more frequently.  They rush to win every game by a big score.  Their only comfortable gear seems to be fifth or sixth.
Wales are a little like England too in that they can rush to over-kill a game when in their pomp.  
And nothing wrong with that plan either - I love ruthlessness as a method too.  Fear is a grand old ally to have on your side when the enemy don't look forward to the efforts they're going to need to keep you out for the full 80.

But like I said - we're more pragmatic but decidedly less familiar with quality in depth than the ABs.  So the pragmatism isn't nearly so safe a tactic - even though I admit it is a design specifically to 'keep' games safe.

But because we're more limited in our natural abilities to keep strong sides at bay, because it's a real physical, tiring effort; because the guys always complain about being shattered after such tight fast and furious affairs, I don't rate our present Pragmatism as overly 'Safe'.
It's undoubtedly effective so far - but safe?  

I couldn't call it so if I'm being honest.  It's clinging, finger-tip stuff. And even Schmidt himself, an honest commentator, nearly always alludes to the nervousness behind the gameplan - always hoping it's enough but never being comfortable or certain until it proves itself each time.

So even Schmidt needs constant proof that he's doing things right.  He needs constant results to reassure himself, and isn't always patently convinced when listening to his comments or looking at his body language.

I think we need just another angle (like the ABs have), a creative grit of attack to push teams back off us when they get comfortable in the knowledge that we've decided to sit back and defend what we have to the final whistle.  Team are starting to sense that we're much less dangerous when we're a little ahead.  They realise we're going to give them a lot of free ball to get back at us. They realise we trust our defences.

Keeping a functioning and effective attack plan available to keep second half ambitious sides off our backs and out of our half is all I now ask from the masterplan....  I'm hoping Schmidt is constantly planning for it but simply not yet adding it to gamedays

Sin é wrote:
My definition of heads up rugby is to see an opportunity and not be afraid to go for it

And what opportunity didn't we go for?

One clear clear chance when Sexton threw the wrong ball to Payne, when Zebo had a walk in and the other the driving lineout when Heaslip got the knee to the back and Pape should have got red.

It was very difficult to create anything when Barnes was favoring the defending team at the breakdown, especially when they were wearing blue.

Sometimes things don't go for you and you have to win ugly.

Nachos Jones wrote:

BODisGOD wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:38 meters eh rodders, fantastic absolutely fantastic. I imagine that most of those meters were made off the restart (where Bowe and Payne worked admittedly well together).

How many chances have Ireland created? 160mins of rugby and only 2 tries scored against Italy, ITALY, the same team a misfiring England team put loads past...

Not the midfields problem but summed up in the defensive robotic approach from Ireland. Ireland will be found out very soon, much as Wales have been found out.

Last season Ireland scored the most points and tries in the competition under Schmidt, the new mid-field partnership is new and inexperienced, give it time. Your sweeping statements are pompous and arrogant.

Pompous and arrogant? I have my opinions like you do, never have I called people pompous and arrogant for their opinions. I may be wrong, probably am but opinions are opinions and everyone is entitled to theirs.

I like Schmidt but believe that he is turning Ireland into a very predictable outfit, similar to what Gatland has done to Wales. Worked very well at first but is now slowly being found out and soon totally found out.

Vomit all you like but you clearly show a lack of class and willingness to debate.

Schmidt devises different game plans for each set of opposition, debatable the opposite to Gatland, who seems to have the same plan for every game. The fact that Leinster played a completely different brand of rugby under Schmidt to Ireland, shows how Ireland if they choose to, can adapt their game plan.

Sin é wrote:

Submachine wrote:I can't understand the call from many on here to drop Jones from the 23. He is our only other full time full back in the squad and is a very, very good player.
Zebo, Payne and Henshaw could all do a job if needed but I think Mike Brown going off so early against Italy yesterday showed the value of having a specialist full back on the bench. England had to make three positional changes to accommodate one substitution and I doubt they would have run with the back line they ended up with even in training. They got away with it against a very poor Italian team yesterday but that was a huge disruption.
Anyway, delighted with the results, the effort of all the players and the tactical changes on the hoof during yesterday's game. England are looking pretty decent at the moment as well so I hope we can go 10 for 10.
Can't see that anyone has let the team down thus far so can't see many changes apart from Healy coming in to start with McGrath on the bench.
Back row combination will be interesting if Heaslip is out. Murphy has to be favourite to start at 8 but ideally you'd want a bit more grunt against that monstrous English unit. Robshaw has looked superb so far. Would love to see Henderson starting at 6 with POM at 8.
PS, I thought Barnes had a decent game.

Submarine, I'd regard Payne as a specialist fullback (and Zebo as a very good one as well, though he doesn't specialise as one).

That's nice. So which one of them would you drop to the bench to do Felix job? Think I mentioned they could play there in my post as well as another lad called Henshaw. None of whom are full time fullbacks like Jonesy who could come on in the event of Kearney, Zebo or Bowe, being injured with minimal disruption.
If Earls or Fitzgerald were on in the 23 shirt and Kearney went down it would require a minimum of 2 positional switches. In Earls cases it would be Payne to 15 and he to 13. With Fitz it would be Zebo to 15 and he on the wing.

SecretFly wrote:I think what all of us will agree on is that Ireland have become perhaps the most Pragmatic side in the ranking top 10.... apart perhaps from the ABs themselves.  

Exactly right - and what have both these got in common? - they lack the power, depth and physical bulk of many their top ten rivals and therefore pragmatism, accuracy and fitness are paramount.

It's taken a kiwi to understand that Ireland can't be south Africa.

I never realised how biased the Rugby board was, christ there's no inbetween for any of you.

From my memory Barnes was favouring the attacking team in the scrum so kind of makes your breakdown theory a bit of old rubbish Rodders.