Ireland V France

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IRELAND v FRANCE
14 February 2015
KO: 17:00
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Referee: Wayne Barnes (RFU)
AR1: Nigel Owens (WRU)
AR2: Stuart Berry (SARU)
TMO: Graham Hughes (RFU)

IRELAND

15 Rob Kearney
14 Tommy Bowe
13 Jared Payne
12 Robbie Henshaw
11 Simon Zebo
10 Johnny Sexton
9 Conor Murray

1 Jack McGrath
2 Rory Best
3 Mike Ross
4 Devin Toner
5 Paul O'Connell (c)
6 Peter O'Mahony
7 Sean O'Brien
8 Jamie Heaslip

16 Sean Cronin, 17 Cian Healy, 18 Martin Moore, 19 Iain Henderson, 20 Jordi Murphy, 21 Isaac Boss, 22 Ian Madigan, 23 Felix Jones

FRANCE

15 Scott Spedding
14 Yoann Huget
13 Mathieu Bastareaud
12 Wesley Fofana
11 Teddy Thomas
10 Camille Lopez
9 Rory Kockott

1 Eddy Ben Arous
2 Guilhem Guirado
3 Rabah Slimani
4 Pascal Papé
5 Yoann Maestri
6 Thierry Dusautoir (c)
7 Bernard Le Roux
8 Damien Chouly

16 Benjamin Kayser, 17 Uini Atonio, 18 Vincent Debaty, 19 Romain Taofifenua, 20 Loann Goujon, 21 Morgan Parra, 22 Rémi Talès, 23 Rémi Lamerat

*****
This is an interesting battle, and very much a case of brains v brawn.
French flair is long gone, they now rely on the likes of Bastareaud and their pack of overweight lumps to get over the line.
Ireland are very much a team of robots, Joe gives instructions on how to dismantle a team like IKEA gives instructions on how to make a cupboard. With the right personnel in Sexton, SOB and the likes of Heaslip at the helm, they should be able to devour the French fatties like they're the last square of a Kinder Bueno.
All logic points to an Irish victory, but as so often happens the French defy logic.

A word on France- is there any team in world rugby that is so obviously wasting their huge potential? Parra came on and you wonder, why on earth is he not one of the guys they are trying to build their team around instead of introducing an new 9 and yet another halfback combo?

Gael Fickou had a great breakthrough season in a poor team last year, now he's disappeared. Brice Dulin had a great breakthrough season in a poor team last year, now he's disappeared. Giys like Medard, Mermoz in and out of the team seemingly at random.

There really is no continuity of selection year on year.

The Great Aukster wrote:Welcome Gael - I agree with most of that.

Henderson is himself only returning from injury and couldn't come on earlier as Joe must have wondered about both SOB and Heaslip lasting

I'd say the plan was for Henderson to come on around the 60 minute mark and keep Murphy for the last 5-10 mins but with Heaslip getting injured his hand was forced.If he put Henderson on with 20 to go and another back 5 forward got injured we'd have been looking at Boss coming on in the backrow.

One thing that is now very obvious is that Ross is only a 50 minute man,I thought he did pretty well in the 1st half including one really eye catching tackle on a French back 3 player who was in full flight but as soon as the French replacement front row came on he was blitzed.If Schmidt continues to start him then he needs to replace him before the opposition bring on a fresh front row or at the very least employ someone solely to keep an eye on the opposition so subs so he can have Moore ready to come in in tandem with their LH.

Murray seems to be everyone's favourite 9 in Ireland (seems almost sacrilege to criticise him) - but for me he keeps the game at a tempo that is 10 to 15% too slow.  Opposition are resetting all the while as he shuttles his guys forward attritional bit by slogfest bit.  He needs to give his backs more of a chance to create space, he needs to deliver ball quicker and Sense when the ball needs to come out fast if the scrum is crumbling.  

It's all very well blaming an entire pack for constant 'slow ball' but the main guy responsible the speed of the ball coming from the pack is the 9.  The 9 must instinctively be prepared to protect his pack and assist them, even when they are under extreme pressure.  His job is to extract that ball and mobilise it again.  His job is to allow his backs into the game.  10s and centres can do nothing until they get it.  If they're getting it seconds too late, their options for 'finding space' are limited.  People can say what they like about other aspects of Murray's play and why he's the primary choice in an Ireland side relying so much on physical resistance.  But his job also requires speed of thought when distributing and, for me, that constantly lets him and us down.

Kearney too needs a kick up the ass and told to stop running back into trouble just when he's been given options (however small) to make a break.  I feel it's physical gung-ho stuff disguising a lack of real confidence in his pace.
Is another of his deep lack-of-form periods upon us again??  I haven't seen him extend those thighs of his in a genuine pumping sprint since I think the days when Schmidt coached Leinster.  He curves his spine and lumbers forward with little inner faith that he can stretch past anything.  

This Ireland side is becoming a real frustration.  They're allegedly developing and strengthening all the while under Schmidt, both tactically and in fitness terms.  But so far, this season, they look well off an ability to sustain the aggressive continuity they displayed last year.  They don't seem to be capable of sustaining a punishing pressure period on the opposition for any longer than five or six minutes at a time - then back to another lull to let the opposition breathe again.

I'm hoping a lot of their 'cobwebby' sluggishness is due to a staggered form-building process into the latter part of this year.  I suspect it is all design to have us reaching best form later in the year but it's still a bumpy and infuriating ride to watch.
Right now I see us surviving on a hefty bit of luck, some refereeing generousity and the remainder - a dollop of last season's defensive skill and drill.  

Two wins in the bag.  Great.  Scary ride though!

Meanwhile, France were what I expected them to be - more of a handful than many were predicting.  But luckily, the French coach doesn't know how good Parra is at injecting momentum and aggressive go-forward into his team................. hmmm, now there is the kinda 9 I like  And the kinda 9 we need to find or bully more of it into Murray.

It was a strange game. The breakdown, I don't know if it was unfit Irish backrow or Barnes' interpretation that was the problem.

Sexton didn't have a great game. Got all his kicks but he butchered a try, kicked badly from hand at times and threw a few bad passes. One paper gave him 10/10. It must be a p!ss take.

Murray kicked OK but would agree with fly that he needs to speed up a little.

The Irish scrum should have been awarded some penalties near the end and got the better of the French front row.

Best got a silly yellow. I'm surprised by him. He didn't look 100% either in the last 2 games.

Are we lacking good ball carriers in the pack? To be honest, it becomes a bit of a chicken and egg situation because no matter how many good carriers we have, they aren't going to make ground off static ball. Which is why I would like to see a bit more pick and goes à la Munster from the ruck, to generate a small bit of momentum and maybe help to speed things up. SecretFly makes a good point above regarding Murray though. He needs to speed up his service a bit.

Our back row made a combined 20 metres or so yesterday, that is pretty dire. POM is the best ball carrier of the lot it seems, but when he is used too often standing out in the backs he is missed elsewhere. There needs to be more options, and currently I'm not sure SOB is close to the threat he once was, nor is Heaslip.

I cant agree that Murray is that slow with his distribution myself and who would be better for Ireland?

The 9-10 combination for Ireland is not the issue, they are arguably the best combination in the NH if not world rugby right now.

The problem as I see it is Henshaw playing out of position at 12, Payne out of position at 13, Kearney not looking his best at 15 and the backrow going awol at vital times during matches. Henderson looks so comfortable when he plays its brilliant and I would like to see him actually start ahead of Toner. He is very mobile and excellent at the breakdown.

I will probably be slated again for saying this (its not because he is from NZ and I don't like him in green or hypercritical of his performances as some have alluded too) but Payne looks so much better at 15 and I would like to see him or Zebo play there against England.

How do you rate POM's performances at 6, Nachos? I think he is a very good player, but his tackle count just seems low for a blindside flanker. He spends an awful lot of time in the back-line yet his best games see him always involved in the tight exchanges, with the odd cameo galloping through the midfield.

Compare our ball-carrying from the forwards yesterday to this



Similar personnel, but none of those carriers playing at 100% now and no sign of that slick continuity play. Think we need to be patient, would expect the two weeks between now and the England game to benefit both of those things and the returning players to be sharper by then.

If Heaslip is ruled out with this back problem I would seriously consider whether O'Mahony should start at 8 with Henderson at 6. Henderson is the only backrower we have who looks capable of physically getting the better of opposition forwards, in attack or defence. Was surprised he didn't come on sooner and when he did he made his usual big impact.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:How do you rate POM's performances at 6, Nachos? I think he is a very good player, but his tackle count just seems low for a blindside flanker. He spends an awful lot of time in the back-line yet his best games see him always involved in the tight exchanges, with the odd cameo galloping through the midfield.

As everyone always alludes to, Schmidt is the master tactician and has a set gameplan so I guess you can better ask him why he assigns POM this role in the back line instead of where he is most effective.

Nachos Jones wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:How do you rate POM's performances at 6, Nachos? I think he is a very good player, but his tackle count just seems low for a blindside flanker. He spends an awful lot of time in the back-line yet his best games see him always involved in the tight exchanges, with the odd cameo galloping through the midfield.

As everyone always alludes to, Schmidt is the master tactician and has a set gameplan so I guess you can better ask him why he assigns POM this role in the back line instead of where he is most effective.

Sounds like POM is a lot like Ireland's favourite player (Dan Lydiate) if you ask me .

I only have one problem with Henderson. It's the fact that he looks like the face of a young child has been photoshoped onto the body of a large man. It's creepy. But he does look like he would add more physicality to out pack.

Nachos Jones wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:How do you rate POM's performances at 6, Nachos? I think he is a very good player, but his tackle count just seems low for a blindside flanker. He spends an awful lot of time in the back-line yet his best games see him always involved in the tight exchanges, with the odd cameo galloping through the midfield.

As everyone always alludes to, Schmidt is the master tactician and has a set gameplan so I guess you can better ask him why he assigns POM this role in the back line instead of where he is most effective.

Well he has played both ways under Schmidt (he made 17 tackles against Australia) and he has played both ways for Munster as well. He always has better games when he is more involved in the donkey work, but he seems to drift out and play as an extra back quite often.

He still had a great game yesterday, but he can be so much better. I think he is more than capable of physically matching any other opposition back row, and would disagree with Notch that Henderson needs to play in the back row for this reason (though he should be in the team as a second row to add the bulk) but POM needs to assert his physical presence more.

The Saint wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:How do you rate POM's performances at 6, Nachos? I think he is a very good player, but his tackle count just seems low for a blindside flanker. He spends an awful lot of time in the back-line yet his best games see him always involved in the tight exchanges, with the odd cameo galloping through the midfield.

As everyone always alludes to, Schmidt is the master tactician and has a set gameplan so I guess you can better ask him why he assigns POM this role in the back line instead of where he is most effective.

Sounds like POM is a lot like Ireland's favourite player (Dan Lydiate) if you ask me .

Strange comparison, Lydiate is known for his high tackle count, POM is not..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:How do you rate POM's performances at 6, Nachos? I think he is a very good player, but his tackle count just seems low for a blindside flanker. He spends an awful lot of time in the back-line yet his best games see him always involved in the tight exchanges, with the odd cameo galloping through the midfield.

As everyone always alludes to, Schmidt is the master tactician and has a set gameplan so I guess you can better ask him why he assigns POM this role in the back line instead of where he is most effective.

Well he has played both ways under Schmidt (he made 17 tackles against Australia) and he has played both ways for Munster as well. He always has better games when he is more involved in the donkey work, but he seems to drift out and play as an extra back quite often.

He still had a great game yesterday, but he can be so much better. I think he is more than capable of physically matching any other opposition back row, and would disagree with Notch that Henderson needs to play in the back row for this reason (though he should be in the team as a second row to add the bulk) but POM needs to assert his physical presence more.

Again, this is done under the direct instructions from Schmidt. It really does not make sense to me as, as you said, he plays much better when doing the donkey work.

He does the same for Munster as well, Nachos. He is inconsistent in that regard.

He does Rory but for Ireland, Schmidt rules with an Iron fist and certainly leaves the players with no questions in their mind as to what is expected from them and where they are to play. I do not see this as inconsistency from POM but as Schmidt telling him to do that.

I think Schmidt wants an extra backrow out in the backs to secure the ball and speed up the ruck when it does go wide,also to potentially have a mismatch up against a smaller back.Unfortunately the other forwards aren't doing a good enough job to allow us spread decent ball so we're not seeing the benefit of having him out there.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I think Schmidt wants an extra backrow out in the backs to secure the ball and speed up the ruck when it does go wide,also to potentially have a mismatch up against a smaller back.Unfortunately the other forwards aren't doing a good enough job to allow us spread decent ball so we're not seeing the benefit of having him out there.

Its a very good idea and approach and one where I believe that TOD would be perfect for, he is strong defensively, very mobile and quick.

Nachos Jones wrote:I cant agree that Murray is that slow with his distribution myself and who would be better for Ireland?

The 9-10 combination for Ireland is not the issue, they are arguably the best combination in the NH if not world rugby right now.

It's not an issue with the media who eulogise the partnership.  It is an issue for me - and probably a few others who like I say don't want to rock no boats when Murray is the name mentioned.

But Sexton (considered perhaps Ireland's most important player now) gets his fair share of praise and his fair share of criticism.  He's not above people readily pointing out his weaknesses.  This weekend is no different.  I've often criticised his kicking for points and the nervousness he brings to that side of his game - Thank God that seems to have settled down now and he's kicking with much more composure (many thanks to O'Gara's help there I'm sure!)

So too with Murray.  He's good at what he does well.  But he's not a 10/10 in each and every game he plays - none of the payers are.  And I continue to see his speed of distribution and quickness of thought there to be a central factor when people complain about 'slow ball'.  Of course in some games he can up that part of his game beautifully but his normal game is slower than I like from a 9.  We're getting away with it for now, but if the backs or even those line-breaking forwards don't get ball early enough to increase their chances of success then that's a big problem heading towards England and Wales and Scotland and the WC.

You only have to look at the speed injected into the game when Stringer played.  You only have to look at what Parra brought to France's game and what the English zippy 9s bring to the England side - punishing momentum that is hard to live with.

Just because you're a big, tall 9 that is there for your physical attributes, that shouldn't absolve you from working hard to improve other areas of your game that might be weaker.
Murray is Central in upping Irish attacking aggession and pace.  If we moan about our pace, then he has to come into the discussion.  We can't moan about Sexton, Payne, O'Brien, Zebo, Bowe or POM if they're waiting too long for the ball to come to them.

I'd imagine being able to hold onto the ball is more important than having to fling it wide quickly because an opposition backrow is going to scrag the scrumhalf.

All that was going to happen if the ball went out wide quickly is that the French centres were going to flatten our backs. Ireland needed the forwards to carry yesterday.

Earls looked very sharp for Munster against Cardiff on Saturday. Another game under his belt next week and he should be in the 23 at least for England.

(This try is worth a watch - http://www.tg4.tv/play.php?pid=4055074176001&title=Try:%20Jack%20O%27Donoghue%20-%20Munster%20v%20Cardiff%20Blues&series=Sports%20Clips

Jack O'Donoghue who scored the try is very highly rated (POM, POC category).

I agree. While at times Murray could definitely been quicker, Sexton's distribution was actually pretty average, maybe even poor. But the pack were hammered up front, make no mistake about it. France had the weight of numbers in the midfield and around the fringes more or less the entire match. How on earth anyone can think the Irish midfield is the problem after watching yesterday and the Italy match is beyond me. It doesn't bear the weight of even cursory analysis.

Sin é wrote:I'd imagine being able to hold onto the ball is more important than having to fling it wide quickly because an opposition backrow is going to scrag the scrumhalf.

All that was going to happen if the ball went out wide quickly is that the French centres were going to flatten our backs. Ireland needed the forwards to carry yesterday.

Earls looked very sharp for Munster against Cardiff on Saturday. Another game under his belt next week and he should be in the 23 at least for England.

(This try is worth a watch - http://www.tg4.tv/play.php?pid=4055074176001&title=Try:%20Jack%20O%27Donoghue%20-%20Munster%20v%20Cardiff%20Blues&series=Sports%20Clips

Jack O'Donoghue who scored the try is very highly rated (POM, POC category).

Ireland seem to need the forwards to do everything lately, huh.  The Forwards have taken over the Asylum?
It might be called box-kicking youself into a stale tactical box.  

Maybe you're right though, Sin - maybe this growing fear that our backs are incapable of anything dynamic pushes all the play to the forwards both in training and in gameplay.  

Maybe so - but let's hope the lack of faith in the backs to evade hefty centres (if given enough room to attempt it!) doesn't inform the decision not to give the ball to Earls if and when he gets a stab at being one against England.

You either constantly play up to the perception that big centres are going to knock your puny little backs around the place for the full 80, or you grow balls and give the backs the chance to prove some big doubers wrong.  But again - that entails quick ball out to them once in a while.

Just heard on radio discussion that Sexton said he couldn't see Zebo out wide (for poor pass to Payne) because of his eye injury.

Payne & Henshaw put in a monumental defensive effort yesterday.

I don't know why people are complaining about any tackle count. Defensively Ireland are one of the best side in the world and POM plays a part in that.

POM is there mainly to slow down opposition ball. Thats his strength, defensively. Therefore he is not a primary tackler but a secondary tackler who comes in after the tackle is made and tries to slow down or win possession. His turnover near the line is an example.

Against Australia he made 17 tackles because Australia stretched the Irish defence which is something teams like France and Italy failed to do.


The main worry for Ireland now is going forward. They look blunt. Part of that has to do with the breakdown which the French slowed down and took the speed out of the Ireland attack which is getting progressively worse under Schmidt.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:I'd imagine being able to hold onto the ball is more important than having to fling it wide quickly because an opposition backrow is going to scrag the scrumhalf.

All that was going to happen if the ball went out wide quickly is that the French centres were going to flatten our backs. Ireland needed the forwards to carry yesterday.

Earls looked very sharp for Munster against Cardiff on Saturday. Another game under his belt next week and he should be in the 23 at least for England.

(This try is worth a watch - http://www.tg4.tv/play.php?pid=4055074176001&title=Try:%20Jack%20O%27Donoghue%20-%20Munster%20v%20Cardiff%20Blues&series=Sports%20Clips

Jack O'Donoghue who scored the try is very highly rated (POM, POC category).

Ireland seem to need the forwards to do everything lately, huh.  The Forwards have taken over the Asylum?
It might be called box-kicking youself into a stale tactical box.  

Maybe you're right though, Sin - maybe this growing fear that our backs are incapable of anything dynamic pushes all the play to the forwards both in training and in gameplay.  

Maybe so - but let's hope the lack of faith in the backs to evade hefty centres (if given enough room to attempt it!) doesn't inform the decision not to give the ball to Earls if and when he gets a stab at being one against England.

You either constantly play up to the perception that big centres are going to knock your puny little backs around the place for the full 80, or you grow balls and give the backs the chance to prove some big doubers wrong.  But again - that entails quick ball out to them once in a while.

France have an exceptional hefty centre that needs to be countered (and fairplay to Payne & Henshaw yesterday - they did very well).

I suspect we will see a bit more of the quick feet in tight places of Earls & Luke Fitz in the future though. (take a look at that try and see Earls get around in a congested midfield).

Exiled Gael wrote:I agree.  While at times Murray could definitely been quicker, Sexton's distribution was actually pretty average, maybe even poor.  But the pack were hammered up front, make no mistake about it.  France had the weight of numbers in the midfield and around the fringes more or less the entire match.  How on earth anyone can think the Irish midfield is the problem after watching yesterday and the Italy match is beyond me.  It doesn't bear the weight of even cursory analysis.  

Once again, I do not see anyone blaming the Irish midfield. All I was saying is that I believe that Payne looks better playing at 15 than 13 so I would have Olding go to 12 and Henshaw to 13 with either Zebo or Payne at 15 with the possibility of Earles at 11.

It is beyond me that this is seen as blaming the Irish midfield.

I don't see Murray as being overly slow myself and although Sexton fluffed a few things yesterday I put that down to match rustiness as he is usually far more aware of his surroundings. The combination and understanding between those two is excellent.

I will take a look at it (the Earls try) but I need no proof that Earls is a guy I'd like to see in the Ireland side.......... but he too will need better service to purr in an Irish context.  Our attack has no true expansive heart.  The will has to be there for all players to run that game - right now, it's obviously not close to being part of the plan.

damn that link ain't working for me, sin

The answer to playing players out of position as you claim (Henshaw and Payne) and then put another player (Zebo) out of position is, frankly, bizarre.

We can only judge the backline sufficiently when we get a more open game and when the pack lays a decent foundation. Until then the players are doing well enough off scraps.

IMO Earls and Fitz are not reliable and flatter to deceive.

Payne is an unsung hero. He was immense yesterday. I don't get the negativity and clamor for Earls etc. I'd rather win every match than watch an Earls cameo and the read how brave Ireland were in defeat.

Payne is almost unseen you really have to look at the match again. He's Ireland's security blanket in midfield. I don't ever seeing him messing up or turning the ball over. Stopped the French midfield yesterday.

Also he and Bowe worked really well together at those innovative restarts.

Exiled Gael wrote:The answer to playing players out of position as you claim (Henshaw and Payne) and then put another player (Zebo) out of position is, frankly, bizarre.  

We can only judge the backline sufficiently when we get a more open game and when the pack lays a decent foundation.  Until then the players are doing well enough off scraps.  

You do know that Zebo has played a rather large amount of games at 15 and is a very accomplished fullback don't you or have you not seen that much of him? So based on that, Zebo would not be played out of position so fail to see how that is bizarre... That and the fact that I said that he or Payne to play 15...

You have avoided my initial question as to how I have been blaming the midfield? I merely suggested that Payne looks a better 15 than 13 so again, I fail to see how that is a controversial opinion?

Exiled Gael wrote:The answer to playing players out of position as you claim (Henshaw and Payne) and then put another player (Zebo) out of position is, frankly, bizarre.  

We can only judge the backline sufficiently when we get a more open game and when the pack lays a decent foundation.  Until then the players are doing well enough off scraps.  

Totally agree. I'm also not sure Sexton was 100% in 2nd half to open up game after running into Bastareauds head multiple times

The midfield's defence was great I thought, Henshaw has been on fire recently. I don't think Earls is big enough at international level to challenge Shmidtball box kicks form the wing- which are pretty essential to our game. Nor is he defensively sound enough to play internationally at centre. I wouldn't mind seeing Kearney dropped, Payne pushed to 15, and Olding at 12 at some point before the world cup.

As we are, I still think we'll be very tricky to beat- just won't be running away with games.

SecretFly wrote:I will take a look at it (the Earls try) but I need no proof that Earls is a guy I'd like to see in the Ireland side.......... but he too will need better service to purr in an Irish context.  Our attack has no true expansive heart.  The will has to be there for all players to run that game - right now, it's obviously not close to being part of the plan.

It wasn't an Earls try (O'Donoghue) - but it was a super try from the point of view it started in Munster's 22 - some great handling with Earls slipping through about 4 or 5 Cardiff players at one stage and then managing to offload.

That link is on the TG4 player (Jack O'Donoghue try clip).

http://www.tg4.tv/play.php?pid=4055074176001&title=Try:%20Jack%20O%27Donoghue%20-%20Munster%20v%20Cardiff%20Blues&series=Sports%20Clips

Sin é wrote:
Jack O'Donoghue who scored the try is very highly rated (POM, POC category).

I've watched JOD a bit now. He is a fantastic athlete with good hands too. He probably has to put on a bit more weight and practice the nitty gritty of back play but one to watch no doubt. Himself and Conan are good 8s for the future along with Copeland.

My comments weren't aimed at you about the midfield. Perhaps, after your comments towards the Notch poster, you might have learned that not all comments in this thread are aimed at you.

Secondly, yes I know Zebo has played 15 for province and indeed country. But he is an emergency fullback. Payne has played 13 for provinces in Ireland and NZ and now his adopted country. So your logic makes no sense there. If you apply your logic equally to both players, then if Payne is out of position now, Zebo would be out of position at 15. But you aren't applying your thinking fairly to both players and may well have everything to do with your provincial allegiance. A shame. As a Leinster fan I would probably have picked Fitzgerald. I wouldn't have picked Payne in the first place as he a) isn't Irish (that ship has long since sailed) and b) he hasn't impressed me at 13 for Ulster. He has done absolutely nothing for Ireland that suggests he can't be a good international 13. He and Henshaw made hard yards off static ball yesterday and were fantastic in defence. When they play poorly let's have a conversation about moving players around. Until then its simply not credible on any conceivable evidence.

Exiled Gael wrote:The answer to playing players out of position as you claim (Henshaw and Payne) and then put another player (Zebo) out of position is, frankly, bizarre.  

We can only judge the backline sufficiently when we get a more open game and when the pack lays a decent foundation.  Until then the players are doing well enough off scraps.  

I'd have no issue with Zebo at fullback - he is a better one on one tackler than Kearney for instance. Think he might have been man of the match at 15 against Sale Sharks.

Payne and Henshaw need to play a bit more together. I don't think any other 13's could have done a better job than Payne yesterday although I would say Fitzgerald has great footwork in tight spaces so I'd like to see him get a go sometime. He (or Earls) should be on the bench ahead of Jones .

Whats clear is they look very solid defensively though. Bastareaud was walking through the Irish midfield the last few seasons but had a hard day yesterday.

kunu wrote:The midfield's defence was great I thought, Henshaw has been on fire recently. I don't think Earls is big enough at international level to challenge Shmidtball box kicks form the wing- which are pretty essential to our game. Nor is he defensively sound enough to play internationally at centre. I wouldn't mind seeing Kearney dropped, Payne pushed to 15, and Olding at 12 at some point before the world cup.

As we are, I still think we'll be very tricky to beat- just won't be running away with games.

It looks to me that Henshaw is only asked to defend and hang onto the ball without turning it over. Safety first.

I think Earls is earmarked for the centre (to provide an attacking threat) to be played alongside Henshaw (who is a big lump). Anytime Earls has played in the centre for Ireland it has been with Darcy or BOD, both small centres.

Two years ago, Earls played in the centre for Ireland for the 6Ns when BOD was out injured, not missing one tackle. There is nothing wrong with his defence (as there is nothing wrong with his passing or offloading game).

I think Les Kiss was the backs coach that season, and as a defensive guru, he didn't seem to worry too much about Earls' defense.

profitius wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Jack O'Donoghue who scored the try is very highly rated (POM, POC category).

I've watched JOD a bit now. He is a fantastic athlete with good hands too. He probably has to put on a bit more weight and practice the nitty gritty of back play but one to watch no doubt. Himself and Conan are good 8s for the future along with Copeland.

More than that. He is 21 and just got a 3 year contract with a full contract after 1 year).

Conan yes - I wouldn't rate Copeland that much.

Exiled Gael, I am well aware that not all comments are directed at me but you were clearly referring to my posts so I replied accordingly but thankyou for being extremely arrogant in your response.

I was not talking about the match or the performance of the midfield of Payne and Henshaw yesterday but more on what I see as a better balance in the team.

Already you know now that Zebo would not be played out of position at 15 as he is already a very accomplished 15 and wing when you first said that he would be out of position and a bizarre choice.

Payne has played far more at 15 than at 13 and is far more accomplished there than at 13 so once again, not a bizarre choice to put him at 15.

Olding or Fitz could do very well at 12 with henshaw at 13.

My approach would be :

09 - Murray
10 - Sexton
11 - Zebo/Earls
12 - Olding/Fitz
13 - Henshaw
14 - Bowe
15 - Payne/Zebo

I think this would bring a lot more balance to the Irish backline.

2 things stick out in my mind Sin. The Tuilagi miss pre world cup, and the Miss against NZ in 60-0 third test when he got absolutely swatted trying to make a cover tackle. He was made look like a schools player on both those occasions. He's a good player, but I'm not convinced he's Ireland's answer. Also - I don't think recent performances can be taken too seriously -Cardiff's defence is fairly brutal, worst in Pro 12 behind the Italian teams. Jimmy Gopperth of all people ran amok against them...

On Henshaw- he has a serious motor. He looks to be running flat out all the time. He's made good yardage to be fair also - I don't think he's merely a defensive goon. Haven't seen any official stats yet though to confirm it.

SecretFly wrote:
Ireland seem to need the forwards to do everything lately, huh.  The Forwards have taken over the Asylum?

Every team needs its forwards to create space and time for the backs and our pack hasn't. I think the halfbacks choices have been good off slow ball, because really there's no point in firing out hospital passes when you're not getting any good ball to run with. Also given Wayne Barnes style of reffing, I just never wanted us to run from our own half as there's always a very strong chance he penalises the attacking team.

One thing that was great to see was Marty Moore lay to rest the ghosts from Paris.He got stronger in the scrum the longer he was on and there was one scrum at the end where the French hooker stood up after a few seconds and he was then followed by his LH as the Irish scrum went forward and Barnes just waved play on.Weird decision but still great to see our backup front row making an impact in the scrum instead of just trying to hold on.

Henshaw is also a lot more than a big lump, as he settles in we'll start to see the skills he displays for Connacht.

Nachos - Why Henshaw at 13 - what is your issue with him playing at 12?

Notch wrote:Henshaw is also a lot more than a big lump, as he settles in we'll start to see the skills he displays for Connacht.

I never meant to imply that is all he is. He has a big physical presence which neither BOD or Darcy had and was a major weakness in the Irish midfield recently.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Henshaw is also a lot more than a big lump, as he settles in we'll start to see the skills he displays for Connacht.

I never meant to imply that is all he is. He has a big physical presence which neither BOD or Darcy had and was a major weakness in the Irish midfield recently.

Yeah its great. I'm just looking forward to seeing McCloskey from Ulster work his way in after the RWC. He's about the same size and shape as Henderson

No issue with Henshaw at 13 Sin é, just that I feel he would be better at 13 with either Olding or Fitz at 12. I make no secrets that Henshaw 12 and Earls 13 is my dream centre pairing though.

kunu wrote:2 things stick out in my mind Sin. The Tuilagi miss pre world cup, and the Miss against NZ in 60-0 third test when he got absolutely swatted trying to make a cover tackle. He was made look like a schools player on both those occasions. He's a good player, but I'm not convinced he's Ireland's answer. Also - I don't think recent performances can be taken too seriously -Cardiff's defence is fairly brutal, worst in Pro 12 behind the Italian teams. Jimmy Gopperth of all people ran amok against them...

On Henshaw- he has a serious motor. He looks to be running flat out all the time. He's made good yardage to be fair also - I don't think he's merely a defensive goon. Haven't seen any official stats yet though to confirm it.

You have to go back 4 years. Perhaps he learned something back then. More recently in the 6Ns as a centre he didn't miss a single tackle in 5 games.

The wings are harder to defend now bearing in mind it is much harder to take down someone like George North when he gets to run at pace at you.

And once again, I did not say that Henshaw was only a defensive goon. Far from it. My point is that is how he has been deployed so far by Schmidt.

edit: just on Cardiff - just watch the clip and you will see what Earls could bring to the table in a congested midfield.