6N Round 3: Scotland v Italy, 28 February

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SCOTLAND v ITALY
Saturday 28 February 2015
KO 14:30 (GMT)
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on BBC1

Referee: George Clancy (IRFU)
AR1: Romain Poite (FFR)
AR2: Leighton Hodges (WRU)
TMO: Graham Hughes (RFU)

A. Teams:

1. SCOTLAND

15 Stuart Hogg
14 Tommy Seymour
13 Mark Bennett
12 Alex Dunbar
11 Sean Lamont
10 Peter Horne
09 Greig Laidlaw (capt)

01 Alasdair Dickinson
02 Ross Ford
03 Euan Murray
04 Tim Swinson
05 Jonny Gray
06 Rob Harley
07 Blair Cowan
08 Johnnie Beattie

16 Fraser Brown
17 Ryan Grant
18 Geoff Cross
19 Ben Toolis
20 Hamish Watson
21 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne
22 Greig Tonks
23 Matt Scott

2. ITALY

15 Luke McLean
14 Michele Visentin
13 Luca Morisi
12 Enrico Bacchin
11 Giovambattista Venditti
10 Kelly Haimona
09 Edoardo Gori

01 Matias Aguero
02 Leonardo Ghiraldini
03 Dario Chistolini
04 George Fabio Biagi
05 Joshua Furno
06 Francesco Minto
07 Simone Favaro
08 Sergio Parisse (capt)

16 Andrea Manici
17 Alberto De Marchi
18 Lorenzo Cittadini
19 Marco Fuser
20 Samuela Vunisa
21 Guglielmo Palazzani
22 Tommaso Allan
23 Giulio Bisegni.

B. Form (last 4 games):

1. SCOTLAND

15/02/15 - Scotland 23 - 26 Wales

07/02/15 - France 15 - 8 Scotland

22/11/14 - Scotland 37 - 12 Tonga

15/11/14 - Scotland 16 - 24 New Zealand

2. ITALY

14/02/15 - England 47 - 17 Italy

07/02/15 - Italy 3 - 26 Ireland

22/11/14 - Italy 6–22 South Africa

14/11/14 - Italy 18–20 Argentina

C. Head to Head:

21 Played 21

14 Wins 7

7 Losses 14

0 Draws 0

40 Tries 28

30 Conversions 23

58 Penalties 50

5 Drop Goals 6

475 Points 365

After an initial surge of optimism I am beginning to have doubts about Cowan at 7. If you look at the first tackle straight from kick off v Wales he goes into the ruck from the side and then lies on the ball. Penalty after 20 seconds. Fair enough he might have been trying it on to see what he could get away with BUT he kept on doing that all game. Watch him next time. He arrives late, makes no attempt to ruck and slides in at the side and has a lie down. At this level that is simply moronic. A top class 7 needs to be smarter than that.

He's a standard 6/10 club player, internationally he's all fart and no poo, he runs around a lot putting in lots of effort with his hair flopping everywhere. Some of his turnovers are exemplary but in the main the ball is handed to him on a plate. Our most efficient breakdown worker is currently Dunbar and by some distance. To put it into perspective; if the Lions back row was picked tomorrow he'd be, in my opinion, behind Robshaw, Warburton, O'Brien, Tipuric, Barclay, Kvesic, Henry, Brown and maybe even Fusaro. Now in an era of generally poor European opensides (when compared to Louw, Pocock, McCaw, Hooper, Messam etc.) we should be aiming much higher than arguably the tenth best openside in Britain. I've nothing against the guy, he works hard and does a job but he seems to give penalties away like Big Jim on speed for limited return when compared to Ross Rennie or John Barclay

In other news Russell's appeal is due on wednesday. Initially when the appeal went in I was optimistic, thinking that it was unlikely that they would risk a further ban causing him to miss the England game without being 70-90% sure of success. Then I remembered the SRU who for nearly a decade have wondered why we haven't finished in the top half of the six nations without realising that the fact we have half, or even less than, the number of professional clubs as all the decent European nations.

I think Cowan is pretty decent, but I'm not utterly convinced. His work at the breakdown is normally quite good, getting some decent turnovers, but when you compare his work ratio to that of Roddy Grant, it just doesn't match up.

Cowan has posted good stats in the first two games - we should bear that in mind.

But I cannot help but shake the nagging thought as to how Hamish Watson would be doing right now were he to be playing.

The Scotsman making a vague stab at selection this morning, with the only point of note being that Lamont will keep his place with Seymour returning.

Despite the fact that Visser has been fairly anonymous so far (which is not completely his fault, and Lamont was too against Wales), I'm not overly enthused about Lamont being picked ahead of him. We should have the ascendency with this game and I think Visser would do more damage than Lamont when we're on the front foot.

Visser can't have too many complaints though given he's not exactly grasped his opportunity the last few games.

I can’t remember where it was being discussed (as in which thread) but there were questions around who should captain the side. Has Dunbar ever been captain at Glasgow?

I was just thinking who is a mainstay of the team, seems to have a decent attitude and at the very least leads by example. Dunbar seems to tick all the boxes, I just don’t know how vocal he is or if he would be capable of performing the role, but another potential name to throw into the mix.

I don't think he has as we've always had either Al or Strauss there as well but he fits the bill from the existing team and will be there for another 8 or 9 years.

This is another reason why I get so annoyed at JB not being picked as I think he would be a really good captain.

Reckon you'll be able to fast-track this guy for Saturday's game? http://www.espn.co.uk/scotland/rugby/story/257399.html

Won't be long until you have more kiwi's than England!

The Saint wrote:Reckon you'll be able to fast-track this guy for Saturday's game? http://www.espn.co.uk/scotland/rugby/story/257399.html

Won't be long until you have more kiwi's than England!

I will start to worry if we reach the same number as Englishmen playing for Wales

Hi The Saint, he's being discussed on two other threads (I can't imagine you're trawling through the Scottish Rugby threads, so probably not aware of this), from his Twitter account he seems to be denying he's moving codes, and plans to stay with Salford.

cakeordeath wrote:

The Saint wrote:Reckon you'll be able to fast-track this guy for Saturday's game? http://www.espn.co.uk/scotland/rugby/story/257399.html

Won't be long until you have more kiwi's than England!

I will start to worry if we reach the same number as Englishmen playing for Wales

Yeah, two (Cuthbert and Charteris) is a disgrace. But I'm pretty sure Scotland already have more .

And Lydiate, North, Ball. Must be missing someone.

The Saint wrote:

cakeordeath wrote:

The Saint wrote:Reckon you'll be able to fast-track this guy for Saturday's game? http://www.espn.co.uk/scotland/rugby/story/257399.html

Won't be long until you have more kiwi's than England!

I will start to worry if we reach the same number as Englishmen playing for Wales

Yeah, two (Cuthbert and Charteris) is a disgrace. But I'm pretty sure Scotland already have more .

Wasn't North born in England?

cakeordeath wrote:

The Saint wrote:

cakeordeath wrote:

The Saint wrote:Reckon you'll be able to fast-track this guy for Saturday's game? http://www.espn.co.uk/scotland/rugby/story/257399.html

Won't be long until you have more kiwi's than England!

I will start to worry if we reach the same number as Englishmen playing for Wales

Yeah, two (Cuthbert and Charteris) is a disgrace. But I'm pretty sure Scotland already have more .

Wasn't North born in England?

Lydiate English dad born in Manchester
JDII was born in Birmingham I think but ethnic Welsh
Warburton I believe could have been English qualified also.

English Kiwis are currently Hartley (english parents but born and brought up in Kiwi land) and arguably one of the Vunipolas who was born there.

So by place of birth there are a good deal more English in Wales than Kiwi in England

The line about England was a joke, as they have hardly any Kiwi's now.... I had a feeling a usual suspect would stop by though.

Lydiate, North, JD, Warburton all welsh. Ball is ummm, well spent most of his life in Australia. Cuthbert and Charteris born and grew up in England, didn't play rugby in Wales until 16-18; both seemingly happy in a red jersey. I doubt you'd claim to be from Afghanistan if you were born there as a result of your parents short-lived international assignment? Don't be so petty.

It's just a joke Saint don't get so mardy.

The Saint wrote:The line about England was a joke, as they have hardly any Kiwi's now.... I had a feeling a usual suspect would stop by though.

Lydiate, North, JD, Warburton all welsh. Ball is ummm, well spent most of his life in Australia. Cuthbert and Charteris born and grew up in England, didn't play rugby in Wales until 16-18; both seemingly happy in a red jersey. I doubt you'd claim to be from Afghanistan if you were born there as a result of your parents short-lived international assignment? Don't be so petty.

I'm not, just wanted to get some clarity in here, and to be honest your jokes to wum ration isnt great. And yes we dont have many Kiwis at the moment, but if Nathan Hughes decides for England it is going to complicate things.

Your last comment does apply of course, more or less, to Heathcote who qualifies for Scotland based on place of birth, based on his dad having a military placement in Scotland.

I don't have a problem with any of those players committing to and playing for Wales. The only issue I have with the Welsh recruitment policy is the somewhat hypocritical situation where they are happy to pick players who have played U20 for other nations whilst restricting Welsh U20's from doing the same. That too is really a situation created by the governing bodies, just exploited by Wales.

Who have we picked that has played for U20s for other nations? Anscombe is yet to be capped and given the state his club is in he could very well forget all that and just fly home. You are entitled to select U20 as a second team if you don't have another one available, so it's not hypocritical really. If it bothers you that much, write a letter to world rugby.

Ach its all getting rather old now!

In summary - Kelly Brown had a dust up with Scott Johnson and as Scott Johnson is still involved in the SRU then he is lording his power over Brown to stop him being selected.  Brown, being the decent character that he is, is knuckling down to work on his game and is not rocking the boat.
John Barclay appears to have had a falling out with the SRU in general.  What about? We're not really too sure, but Barclay has been more petulent and thrown his toys out of the pram by refering to himself as a "former" international rugby player!

Kelly is out in the wilderness but there is a chance that the SRu may bring him in from the cold
Barclay is out in the wilderness and it looks like he and the SRU have decided he won't be back in a blue jersey!

Such a shame.  We have so little strength in depth and have lost a number of important players through injury long before their careers really took off, and we have two perfectly good ones, sitting at home twiddling their thumbs, or playing for Sarries and Scarlets if you prefer.

It’s a crazy situation to be in for a country, with one of the smallest player pools around, to be ignoring players due to fallings out

Barclay had another fine game on the weekend, something for Cotter to consider perhaps.

Players that should be on last chance saloon (but likely won't)

Beattie
Hamilton
Strockosh
Visser


Anyone else to put on the watch list?

I think that most of us would rather have Barclay than Cowan, Saint, but Cotter apparently does not rate him for reasons that (I think, literally) nobody on these boards understands.

Hamilton and Strokosh definitely, especially since they are old and with better options available, but bit harsh on Visser.

He's only 27, and still has the best strike rate of our backs just now.

Plus he's probably at worst our 3rd choice winger - hardly last chance saloon territory!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Hamilton and Strokosh definitely, especially since they are old and with better options available, but bit harsh on Visser.

He's only 27, and still has the best strike rate of our backs just now.

Plus he's probably at worst our 3rd choice winger - hardly last chance saloon territory!

On recent performances, he should be no-where near this squad - if he can bring some form - then maybe - but he has been an embarrassment in the first two games

I'm not disagreeing with you, but last chance saloon basically means sending them to the scrapheap, and given that Visser is only 27, and just off form, that is a bit premature.

Strokosh yes - he's playing 2nd tier rugby and has made little impact recently.

Hamilton maybe - he's still playing top tier rugby but doens't really fit into Cotter's style (and gives away too many penalties).

George Carlin wrote:I think that most of us would rather have Barclay than Cowan, Saint, but Cotter apparently does not rate him for reasons that (I think, literally) nobody on these boards understands.

That is a real problem when a Kiwi journeyman wins out over a local player who has demonstrated ability in the international game.

I have seen enough SH journeymen in our side to wish that on anyone else.

George Carlin wrote:I think that most of us would rather have Barclay than Cowan, Saint, but Cotter apparently does not rate him for reasons that (I think, literally) nobody on these boards understands.

I dunno George, I've been pretty impressed by Cowan to be honest, I thought the majority of posters had been too. I completely agree that Barcs should be brought back into the fold, but I don't think Cowan's form merits him being dropped.

Am in two minds, to be honest. As I've said above, he posts good tackle and turnover numbers and always looks busy - to say nothing of the fact that to be Irish's player of the season last year, you need to be quality and consistent.

In the debit column, he gets penalised a lot and from what I can tell not for having his hand in the biscuit tin but for some knucklehead stuff he shouldn't be anywhere near. And I mean "a lot" for any openside who is doing more than just feeling out the ref at the start of the game.

It's all relative I guess. I'm not saying that JB or Hamish Watson are clearly better - just that I don't yearn for Cowan to be there on the teamsheet in the way that I do for Rob Harley.

I know what you mean, but I can't help feeling he's behind a lot of our quick ball. His jackle and Jonny G's clear out seem to be working wonders. It may be down to the new regime's game plan or lack thereof, but I think he's pretty crucial to the faster, more heads up game we're playing. Sure, he's been pinged a bit too often during the last couple of games but he was on fire in the Autumn. I'm just delighted we've got a true 7 playing at 7 to be honest. I think he, Barcs or Watson are a step up from what we had last year, as much as I love King Kelly.

George Carlin wrote:Am in two minds, to be honest. As I've said above, he posts good tackle and turnover numbers and always looks busy - to say nothing of the fact that to be Irish's player of the season last year, you need to be quality and consistent.

In the debit column, he gets penalised a lot and from what I can tell not for having his hand in the biscuit tin but for some knucklehead stuff he shouldn't be anywhere near. And I mean "a lot" for any openside who is doing more than just feeling out the ref at the start of the game.

It's all relative I guess. I'm not saying that JB or Hamish Watson are clearly better - just that I don't yearn for Cowan to be there on the teamsheet in the way that I do for Rob Harley.

Is rob harleys stats as good as cowans in the turnover department ? reason is i get the impression (possibly wrongly) that harley is a tackle machine more than a turnover king ?

alive555 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Am in two minds, to be honest. As I've said above, he posts good tackle and turnover numbers and always looks busy - to say nothing of the fact that to be Irish's player of the season last year, you need to be quality and consistent.

In the debit column, he gets penalised a lot and from what I can tell not for having his hand in the biscuit tin but for some knucklehead stuff he shouldn't be anywhere near. And I mean "a lot" for any openside who is doing more than just feeling out the ref at the start of the game.

It's all relative I guess. I'm not saying that JB or Hamish Watson are clearly better - just that I don't yearn for Cowan to be there on the teamsheet in the way that I do for Rob Harley.

Is rob harleys stats as good as cowans in the turnover department ? reason is i get the impression (possibly wrongly) that harley is a tackle machine more than a turnover king ?

vs. France: Cowan 14 tackles. Harley 9.
vs. Wales: Cowan 6 tackles. Harley 11.

J Gray is top tackler in both games 19 and 13.

If someone did this for Scotland I would presume this is what Harley is in the team for : http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-italy-rucks-1931855-Feb2015/
He's more than likely to be the first or second man to the breakdown.

Riskysports wrote:Players that should be on last chance saloon (but likely won't)

Beattie
Hamilton
Strockosh
Visser


Anyone else to put on the watch list?

Sean Lamont should be on the list. Too slow - doesn't score any tries.

alive555 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Am in two minds, to be honest. As I've said above, he posts good tackle and turnover numbers and always looks busy - to say nothing of the fact that to be Irish's player of the season last year, you need to be quality and consistent.

In the debit column, he gets penalised a lot and from what I can tell not for having his hand in the biscuit tin but for some knucklehead stuff he shouldn't be anywhere near. And I mean "a lot" for any openside who is doing more than just feeling out the ref at the start of the game.

It's all relative I guess. I'm not saying that JB or Hamish Watson are clearly better - just that I don't yearn for Cowan to be there on the teamsheet in the way that I do for Rob Harley.

Is rob harleys stats as good as cowans in the turnover department ? reason is i get the impression (possibly wrongly) that harley is a tackle machine more than a turnover king ?

No, no - I'm not suggesting that they are - all I'm saying is that Harley is irreplaceable.
Cowan is not, not in the same way.

Laidlaw's doing the press stuff today. Guess we know he will be starting somewhere at least.

Weegie Wizard wrote:Laidlaw's doing the press stuff today. Guess we know he will be starting somewhere at least.

Maybe he just wants to ask people if they've seen a missing ring. Gold, ancient runes on the band. Quite heavy. Anyone?

cp10 wrote:

alive555 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Am in two minds, to be honest. As I've said above, he posts good tackle and turnover numbers and always looks busy - to say nothing of the fact that to be Irish's player of the season last year, you need to be quality and consistent.

In the debit column, he gets penalised a lot and from what I can tell not for having his hand in the biscuit tin but for some knucklehead stuff he shouldn't be anywhere near. And I mean "a lot" for any openside who is doing more than just feeling out the ref at the start of the game.

It's all relative I guess. I'm not saying that JB or Hamish Watson are clearly better - just that I don't yearn for Cowan to be there on the teamsheet in the way that I do for Rob Harley.

Is rob harleys stats as good as cowans in the turnover department ? reason is i get the impression (possibly wrongly) that harley is a tackle machine more than a turnover king ?

vs. France: Cowan 14 tackles. Harley 9.
vs. Wales: Cowan 6 tackles. Harley 11.

J Gray is top tackler in both games 19 and 13.

If someone did this for Scotland I would presume this is what Harley is in the team for : http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-italy-rucks-1931855-Feb2015/
He's more than likely to be the first or second man to the breakdown.

cp10 great article, thanks. You sure do like your statistical analysis. Just remember what GC says...You can prove anything with facts.
p.s. I still feel Cowan gave away too many penalties v Wales, but no facts to back me up.

Now I understand where Big Al's 'Ruck Inspector' nom de guerre came from http://dementedmole.com/2013/10/30/ruck-marks/

Scotland let me down once this season. Don't do it again. The house is on it this time and I'm not going to be sleeping in a cardboard box without someone paying a terrible price!

jimbopip wrote:

cp10 wrote:

alive555 wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Am in two minds, to be honest. As I've said above, he posts good tackle and turnover numbers and always looks busy - to say nothing of the fact that to be Irish's player of the season last year, you need to be quality and consistent.

In the debit column, he gets penalised a lot and from what I can tell not for having his hand in the biscuit tin but for some knucklehead stuff he shouldn't be anywhere near. And I mean "a lot" for any openside who is doing more than just feeling out the ref at the start of the game.

It's all relative I guess. I'm not saying that JB or Hamish Watson are clearly better - just that I don't yearn for Cowan to be there on the teamsheet in the way that I do for Rob Harley.

Is rob harleys stats as good as cowans in the turnover department ? reason is i get the impression (possibly wrongly) that harley is a tackle machine more than a turnover king ?

vs. France: Cowan 14 tackles. Harley 9.
vs. Wales: Cowan 6 tackles. Harley 11.

J Gray is top tackler in both games 19 and 13.

If someone did this for Scotland I would presume this is what Harley is in the team for : http://www.the42.ie/analysis-ireland-italy-rucks-1931855-Feb2015/
He's more than likely to be the first or second man to the breakdown.

cp10 great article, thanks. You sure do like your statistical analysis. Just remember what GC says...You can prove anything with facts.
p.s. I still feel Cowan gave away too many penalties v Wales, but no facts to back me up.

It's not really about stats its about how to generate quick ball (and slow down ball). Breakdowns are a key battle ground where games are won or lost. Against Wales it was always going to be tough. Having Harley means it gives a greater license to the other back row guys and someone like Richie Gray to not always have to be hitting all rucks or not being the first guy there.

For rucks close to a breakdown it's easier as your front rower will be fine. But for ones that are further out and not close to the initial breakdown you need your first guys there - Harley. First guy will generally be under a pile of bodies. Which means next phase we'll potentially have a ball carrying 7 or 8 ready.

Though, with R. Gray out I'm not sure how the tactics will work as well, as Hamiliton doesn't carry (and make meters) out wider as much. Not sure about Toolis be a like-for-like either.

Thinking back to the K Brown discussion, I wonder whether he was asked to do that role but didn't like it (not allowed to have ball in hand) or wasn't effective enough to do it? You look at Harleys stats on 6nations website - http://www.rbs6nations.com/en/matchcentre/match_centre.php?section=stats&fixid=183800 - he doesn't do much. Not many passes, hardly any carries, hardly any meters. Don't shoot me down it's only a thought.

Did you know that an anagram of 'Jonathan Davies is a tool' is:
'Jovial as neat sainthood'?

Also, if you rearrange 'Finn Russell is innocent', you get:
'Full, intrinsic nonsense'.

Anagram of George Clancy is:

Useless incompetent jizzstain Muppet.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Anagram of George Clancy is:

Useless incompetent jizzstain Muppet.

Thank god for Italy, at least Scotland have a chance of winning one.

Productive day at work today GC!?

GLove39 wrote:Productive day at work today GC!?

George Carlin wrote:

GLove39 wrote:Productive day at work today GC!?

Ohhh, great, so now you're misusing office supplies as well!