Ireland v England - Match Thread

[GunsGerms]

First topic message reminder :

I know I am two weeks early but Ireland v England on Sunday 1st March will possibly be the 6 nations decider as both teams are the only two teams still undefeated in the 6 nations so far this year.

There are many different angles, plots and sub plots to this game. Here are some of the many things at stake:

Reaburn Shield:

Ireland have held it for 4 consecutive games having defeated previous holders SA in November.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeburn_Shield

3rd place in rankings:



Triple Crown:

Only Ireland and England can still win this trophy and with due respect to Scotland and Wales who Ireland have yet to play to win it would be some achievement this year.

Grand Slam:

Only Ireland and England and win the slam.

6 nations title:
Obviously France and Wales are still in the running with only one loss but the bookies have Ireland and England as favorites at this point.

Millennium Trophy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Trophy

Eye on the WC:
The earliest Ireland and England could possibly meet at the WC is the Semi finals if they both win their pools and their quarter finals or both come runner up and win their quarters. Either way I think other fixtures such England v Wales and Ireland v France were more important for each nations WC preparations.

Ireland need one more win to tie their record of 10 sucessive wins.

Head to head record:
Overall: England 74 wins Ireland 46 wins
6Nations: England 7 wins Ireland 8 wins

Who is going to win and why?
http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2015/rugby/story/256583.html
Phil Vickery predicts an England win.

Teams:

England:

Ireland:

[LondonTiger]

No, thats whats at stake. Two points to the winners....

Unless we have a draw.

Imagine the scenario:

Match clock clicks to 0:00 with Ireland leading 21 (6p Sexton, 1p Madigan) 16 (T Joseph, C&3P Ford) as England move the ball to the left. May skins Zebo on the outside and under pressure from Kearney dots the ball down in the corner. Ford hooks the conversion attempt and we are all left with a "kissing your sister" moment.

Guns blames the ref, Joubert, pointing out that he was the ref for your RWC11 Q/F with Wales.
Beshocked blames May for not scoring closer to the posts, and Ford for a poor kick. Evidence is provided to show that Ashton would have scored under the posts and Farrell would have made the conversion.

[SecretFly]

In a game this delicately poised, those personal loyalties are the only thing to sway us off the fence one way or the other. Its that close.

This is the biggest game of the season for me unless we should reach the semi-finals of the World Cup. We really should have won that game last season at Twickenham, time to make amends.

That should be the attitude.  I hear Easter is talking about revenge if he gets to play.  And his sense of revenge is much older than the revenge we need to cook up in our hearts.  That was a too close to call game last year that England were glad they finally took and we should feel we had and let go.

I know Schmidt shuns over-emotion at times like these and he'll probably be screaming 'detail' and 'systems' at the guys all week, trying to knock them out of that perhaps building emotional involvement.  

But this time I think he should let Paulie and the boys cook some emotion up - in the talk during the week and before the game.  For me England were our toughest side last year - neither Australia or SA came up to the intensity of that struggle.  So yes, here we are again - put aside any technical build up routines for this one and meet England for the isolated challenge.  A game for its own sake.  We can then return to systems and blueprints for Wales and Scotland.
But this one should be its own beast.

[lostinwales]

No, thats whats at stake. Two points to the winners....

Unless we have a draw.

Imagine the scenario:

Match clock clicks to 0:00 with Ireland leading 21 (6p Sexton, 1p Madigan) 16 (T Joseph, C&3P Ford) as England move the ball to the left. May skins Zebo on the outside and under pressure from Kearney dots the ball down in the corner. Ford hooks the conversion attempt and we are all left with a "kissing your sister" moment.

Guns blames the ref, Joubert, pointing out that he was the ref for your RWC11 Q/F with Wales.
Beshocked blames May for not scoring closer to the posts, and Ford for a poor kick. Evidence is provided to show that Ashton would have scored under the posts and Farrell would have made the conversion.

You forgot to say that Saint will also find a reason why a draw somehow insults Wales

[SecretFly]

To be fair if the TMO has footage that irrefutably shows that Ashton would have scored under the posts then he should be allowed present it to the ref.

I think these rules on what the ref can ask of a TMO are getting ridiculous now!

[LondonTiger]

To be fair if the TMO has footage that irrefutably shows that Ashton would have scored under the posts then he should be allowed present it to the ref.

I think these rules on what the ref can ask of a TMO are getting ridiculous now!

True, far too many restrictions. TMO should be allowed to rule out any kick at goal for "bad hair"

[SecretFly]

To be fair if the TMO has footage that irrefutably shows that Ashton would have scored under the posts then he should be allowed present it to the ref.

I think these rules on what the ref can ask of a TMO are getting ridiculous now!

True, far too many restrictions. TMO should be allowed to rule out any kick at goal for "bad hair"

Thus why I hope Madigan doesn't have to come on.

[Breadvan]

Beshocked blames May for not scoring closer to the posts, and Ford for a poor kick. Evidence is provided to show that Ashton would have scored under the posts and Farrell would have made the conversion.  

Beshocked presented this evidence.....puts his sunglasses on, glorious sunset behind, cue The Who Yeeeeeaaaaaaaa!

[Notch]

Henderson came off tonight with a wee knock, but it didn't seem too bad.

[yappysnap]

No, thats whats at stake. Two points to the winners....

Unless we have a draw.

Imagine the scenario:

Match clock clicks to 0:00 with Ireland leading 21 (6p Sexton, 1p Madigan) 16 (T Joseph, C&3P Ford) as England move the ball to the left. May skins Zebo on the outside and under pressure from Kearney dots the ball down in the corner. Ford hooks the conversion attempt and we are all left with a "kissing your sister" moment.

Guns blames the ref, Joubert, pointing out that he was the ref for your RWC11 Q/F with Wales.
Beshocked blames May for not scoring closer to the posts, and Ford for a poor kick. Evidence is provided to show that Ashton would have scored under the posts and Farrell would have made the conversion.

I forget, was this with or without Chuck Norris?

[Gwlad]

England cannot lose this game, it means another wasted opportunity in the 6 Nations. If however they do win it they might do the Slam and in RWC year that will create a lot of momentum

[yappysnap]

I fear another 2nd place finish this 6n's

[The Great Aukster]

England are bookies favourites so they obviuosly don't fear a second place finish!

[stub]

England are bookies favourites so they obviuosly don't fear a second place finish!

Really surprised by that - I still think Ireland look most likely tbh. There can't be much between Eng and Ire at the bookies I guess?

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Ireland are actually slight favourites at 10/11 England  11/10 with the draw at about 20/1.

According to Oddschecker the draw has been bet on most then about twice as many bets for Ireland than England.

[LondonTiger]

England are bookies favourites so they obviuosly don't fear a second place finish!

Bookies odds are always designed to minimise losses and maximise wins for the bookie. All it means is that they expect there to be a higher number of people betting on England (and there are more English after all) than on Ireland. Should the betting pattern change - so will the odds.

[bedfordwelsh]

Are England faves for this one? Think it will be a close match but I would have Ireland ahead at mo even if its just the home advantage that may well tip it in their favour.

[doctor_grey]

The reality is this match is close. However the odds makers do it, and however they calculate, it is close.

As an FYI, the NFL betting is usually on the points differential, not simply odds. The companies which establish the betting differential (points spread) for NFL matches always include 3 points for home teams, even poor ones. A fixed number. So if Ireland would be favoured by 3, that means the bookies consider the teams even on paper, but give the edge to Ireland because they would be home. They would expect a close match which Ireland edges.

[LondonTiger]

Are England faves for this one?  Think it will be a close match but I would have Ireland ahead at mo even if its just the home advantage that may well tip it in their favour.

Ireland are marginal favourites with the bookies.

[stub]

Ireland are actually slight favourites at 10/11 England  11/10 with the draw at about 20/1.

According to Oddschecker the draw has been bet on most then about twice as many bets for Ireland than England.

Yes, that is much more like I would expect it to be,

[stub]

A draw could well be a good call...

[Nachos Jones]

Just watched the Scarlets - Munster match. Earls is looking in very good form at 13...

[stub]

Not liking the sound of that Nachos!

[Nachos Jones]

I am living in hope that Kearney gets dropped to the bench with Payne replacing him at 15. Henshaw 12 and Earls 13 for Ireland against England stub

[Notch]

Jeez, that would be an unmitigated disaster for Ireland. Payne is nowhere near Kearneys level in terms of organisation, kicking game, fielding game...

I would have serious thoughts that a change like that could really turn the game in Englands favour.

[Nachos Jones]

How so Notch? Kearney on form is definitely the best 15 Ireland have but right now he looks woefully out of form. Payne has the experience at 15, good under the high ball, has a decent boot on him and a better one on one tackler than Kearney.

How would it be an unmitigated disaster?

[Notch]

Because Payne is just not test quality as fullback. Less effective organiser, less effective chaser, less effective competing in the air, less effective positionally. Kearney is selfish in attack but this is not going to be an open, flowing game. This is going to be cagey, tight and won by the team who wins the territory battle.

Basically you'd be taking one of our key players in implementing the kicking/chasing game and throwing him away before the game which is most likely to be decided by which team is better at tactical kicking.

The only thing Payne is better than Kearney at from fullback is counterattacking and at this level, especially when Northern Hemisphere teams clash in high tension Six Nations matches, attacking skills have become less important than defensive skills. If you don't like that the international game has gone that way, thats understandable and even fair enough. But if he made that change it would be a potentially championship losing decision. It's rugby suicide.

[Nachos Jones]

Well I feel that Payne is also far superior to Kearney in one on one tackling situations as well as counter attacking myself.

Kearney just doesn't look that comfortable right now, in my eyes anyways.

But if you and Schmidt feel that Kearney is still the form man then so be it but it then does raise a very difficult decision. With Earls looking very much back to form, does he come in as a like for like swap for Payne against England? Payne is still learning the international game (done well granted) but Earls has that experience. It would be tough to drop Payne but I think Earls could very well make a big impact against England with his experience.

[theslosty]

You could argue Payne is a better full back than Kearney at club level, but at Test level Rob is clearly the more reliable call.
Saying Kearney is "woefully out of form" seems a bizarre statement to me. He's been a consistent 7 or 8 out of 10 under Schmidt.

[Notch]

You could argue Payne is a better full back than Kearney at club level, but at Test level Rob is clearly the more reliable call.
Saying Kearney is "woefully out of form" seems a bizarre statement to me. He's been a consistent 7 or 8 out of 10 under Schmidt.

The thing is we've seen Payne rip teams apart in the Pro12 from fullback but in test rugby, he might get just one chance in the entire game to attack like that. Some games he won't get any chances to attack from deep. And when he does he will have very little space to operate in. Compared to being called upon as a defensive fullback every time they put the ball in the air, his running game will be much less influential on the final result than his defensive game. You're clearly going to go for the more reliable fielder/kicker.

[theslosty]

Exactly Notch, you just cannot compare Pro12 defences with Test defences, particularly now where chances to attack are so limited. I would add Kearney can also be a very effective counter-attacker in club rugby, he wasn't ERC Player of the Year for just catching and fielding. At Test level, there are very few players who can do that, certainly in the NH, so Kearney is unfairly criticised in that regard for me.

I'd definitely advocate Earls for the utility bench slot. However, as much as I admire him, you're not going to throw a pretty solid Test partnership out of the window for an unproven pairing and a guy who hasn't played international rugby in 2 years. Especially in the hardest match in the championship.

[Notch]

I don't think Earls will make the bench. So important is the specialist fullback role, Felix Jones will be retained to allow Payne and Henshaw to focus on centre.

[Nachos Jones]

I am not criticising Kearney, as I said earlier, when on form he is the best option Ireland have at 15. I have just seen, after the first two match's, that he is not looking in good form. Payne was not tried at 13 Internationally before his debut and yet he has done well has he not? I simply feel that he is a better 15 than 13 and would have zero concerns about him playing 15 at test level. Some players just have that class to play test rugby and Payne is one of them.

Earls, although not played much International rugby in recent times still remains a man with bucket loads of experience on the international stage and is looking very much back to his best.

A solid test partnership, how many games have Henshaw and Payne played together at international level? Not enough to be called a solid test partnership in my opinion.

[Nachos Jones]

I don't think Earls will make the bench. So important is the specialist fullback role, Felix Jones will be retained to allow Payne and Henshaw to focus on centre.

Even as a Munsterfan and as much as I rate Felix, I don't see him as being a competent international 15. There is coverage and experience enough in Zebo and Payne.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Because Payne is just not test quality as fullback. Less effective organiser, less effective chaser, less effective competing in the air, less effective positionally. Kearney is selfish in attack but this is not going to be an open, flowing game. This is going to be cagey, tight and won by the team who wins the territory battle.

Basically you'd be taking one of our key players in implementing the kicking/chasing game and throwing him away before the game which is most likely to be decided by which team is better at tactical kicking.

The only thing Payne is better than Kearney at from fullback is counterattacking and at this level, especially when Northern Hemisphere teams clash in high tension Six Nations matches, attacking skills have become less important than defensive skills. If you don't like that the international game has gone that way, thats understandable and even fair enough. But if he made that change it would be a potentially championship losing decision. It's rugby suicide.

There must be something clouding your memory if this is how you remember Jared Payne at fullback for Ulster.. rather bizarre actually. How can you claim that people are not giving Payne a chance at 13, where he has flattered to deceive even at club level, but in the position he has actually looked genuinely a class above the rest, you claim he isn't test class despite having never played there internationally?

That is honestly baffling. How you can come to such a conclusion is beyond me.

[Notch]

Because Payne is just not test quality as fullback. Less effective organiser, less effective chaser, less effective competing in the air, less effective positionally. Kearney is selfish in attack but this is not going to be an open, flowing game. This is going to be cagey, tight and won by the team who wins the territory battle.

Basically you'd be taking one of our key players in implementing the kicking/chasing game and throwing him away before the game which is most likely to be decided by which team is better at tactical kicking.

The only thing Payne is better than Kearney at from fullback is counterattacking and at this level, especially when Northern Hemisphere teams clash in high tension Six Nations matches, attacking skills have become less important than defensive skills. If you don't like that the international game has gone that way, thats understandable and even fair enough. But if he made that change it would be a potentially championship losing decision. It's rugby suicide.

There must be something clouding your memory if this is how you remember Jared Payne at fullback for Ulster.. rather bizarre actually. How can you claim that people are not giving Payne a chance at 13, where he has flattered to deceive even at club level, but in the position he has actually looked genuinely a class above the rest, you claim he isn't test class despite having never played there internationally?

That is honestly baffling. How you can come to such a conclusion is beyond me.

I just can't see him operating the way he did at Ulster without the space afforded to him at that level. Shut him down, make him compete for the ball in the air and you'll see weaknesses you don't see in the Pro12 appear. He was never dominant in the air. Shut down his counter-attacking game and you are left with a fairly average fullback at test level.

The qualities needed to be an outstanding fullback at Pro12 level do not necessarily make you a quality test fullback. Watching the Pro12, the level is so far off test rugby that I actually believe it is not even that relevant to international selection nowadays. I don't believe selection decisions have anything to do with Pro12 form at this juncture because I don't think it's viewed as being tough enough.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Also, the best fullback in NH rugby currently is selected for his abilities in attack (Mike Brown) and we will be delighted if he is out for this Ireland game. If England were to select a fullback for his defensive abilities, they would have Alex Goode starting again. Thankfully for them, they have went with their most dangerous counter attacker.

Wales are ignoring their best attacking back in favour of a defensive fullback and it is costing them in my opinion. That comment about NH teams favouring the defensive fullbacks is simply untrue. Look at the best fullbacks in the competition so far.

[Notch]

Mike Brown is a brilliant defensive fullback, much better than Goode. He is fantastic at every element of fullback play.

You can point to players who are able to attack but if they weren't also capable of the basics, they would not be in the team. Those basics are the most important part of their skill set in test rugby. I don't think Payne is incapable of the basics. I just don't think he is that good at them, and certainly not as good as Rob Kearney.

[Nachos Jones]

Notch,

Payne will be afforded the same attacking opportunities at International level as Kearney is and right now, I feel he is the better counter attacker than Kearney.

Kearney is certainly strong under the highball (though has looked a bit shaky the first two matches) but Payne is certainly no slouch.

I also feel that Payne is by far the superior (one on one) defender than Kearney as well.

I am still confused as to why you would feel starting Payne at 15 would be an unmitigated disaster and international suicide as you have said he is not experienced as an international 15. I raised the question that he was also inexperienced internationally at 13 and so far has fitted in well and not let the side down so can you please elaborate as to why you feel he will not be a good International 15 when in my opinion, its his best position.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Because Payne is just not test quality as fullback. Less effective organiser, less effective chaser, less effective competing in the air, less effective positionally. Kearney is selfish in attack but this is not going to be an open, flowing game. This is going to be cagey, tight and won by the team who wins the territory battle.

Basically you'd be taking one of our key players in implementing the kicking/chasing game and throwing him away before the game which is most likely to be decided by which team is better at tactical kicking.

The only thing Payne is better than Kearney at from fullback is counterattacking and at this level, especially when Northern Hemisphere teams clash in high tension Six Nations matches, attacking skills have become less important than defensive skills. If you don't like that the international game has gone that way, thats understandable and even fair enough. But if he made that change it would be a potentially championship losing decision. It's rugby suicide.

There must be something clouding your memory if this is how you remember Jared Payne at fullback for Ulster.. rather bizarre actually. How can you claim that people are not giving Payne a chance at 13, where he has flattered to deceive even at club level, but in the position he has actually looked genuinely a class above the rest, you claim he isn't test class despite having never played there internationally?

That is honestly baffling. How you can come to such a conclusion is beyond me.

I just can't see him operating the way he did at Ulster without the space afforded to him at that level. Shut him down, make him compete for the ball in the air and you'll see weaknesses you don't see in the Pro12 appear. He was never dominant in the air. Shut down his counter-attacking game and you are left with a fairly average fullback at test level.

The qualities needed to be an outstanding fullback at Pro12 level do not necessarily make you a quality test fullback. Watching the Pro12, the level is so far off test rugby that I actually believe it is not even that relevant to international selection nowadays.

The Pro 12 is indeed woeful, and he has flattered to deceive there at 13, you must apply the same logic for both positions. Thankfully for Ulster, Payne has looked outstanding in the European competitions also (at fullback). It is no coincidence that we have not seen the same player after his positional switch. Also, since when was Payne not good in the air? There may be better options than him available (see Alex Goode over Mike Brown for England) but he is still good in the air!

Also you are using a rather odd hypothetical situation to suggest that Payne would struggle at international level. You could literally apply that to any fullback in the world. Shut down their counter attacking game and most of the best fullbacks are no longer as good. Well, obviously!

[Notch]

I am still confused as to why you would feel starting Payne at 15 would be an unmitigated disaster and international suicide

Starting Payne isn't the suicidal part of that decision, dropping Rob Kearney is.

[Nachos Jones]

I am still confused as to why you would feel starting Payne at 15 would be an unmitigated disaster and international suicide

Starting Payne isn't the suicidal part of that decision, dropping Rob Kearney is.

So you feel that Kearney is in such good form and looking comfortable right now?

[Rory_Gallagher]

For the record, I wouldn't drop Rob Kearney. However, I just find it very odd that the same people who defend Payne at 13 and say to give him a chance, can also say he isn't a test class fullback when he has never played there internationally. Despite it being his clear best position are European level. Same standards please!

[Notch]

Because Payne is just not test quality as fullback. Less effective organiser, less effective chaser, less effective competing in the air, less effective positionally. Kearney is selfish in attack but this is not going to be an open, flowing game. This is going to be cagey, tight and won by the team who wins the territory battle.

Basically you'd be taking one of our key players in implementing the kicking/chasing game and throwing him away before the game which is most likely to be decided by which team is better at tactical kicking.

The only thing Payne is better than Kearney at from fullback is counterattacking and at this level, especially when Northern Hemisphere teams clash in high tension Six Nations matches, attacking skills have become less important than defensive skills. If you don't like that the international game has gone that way, thats understandable and even fair enough. But if he made that change it would be a potentially championship losing decision. It's rugby suicide.

There must be something clouding your memory if this is how you remember Jared Payne at fullback for Ulster.. rather bizarre actually. How can you claim that people are not giving Payne a chance at 13, where he has flattered to deceive even at club level, but in the position he has actually looked genuinely a class above the rest, you claim he isn't test class despite having never played there internationally?

That is honestly baffling. How you can come to such a conclusion is beyond me.

I just can't see him operating the way he did at Ulster without the space afforded to him at that level. Shut him down, make him compete for the ball in the air and you'll see weaknesses you don't see in the Pro12 appear. He was never dominant in the air. Shut down his counter-attacking game and you are left with a fairly average fullback at test level.

The qualities needed to be an outstanding fullback at Pro12 level do not necessarily make you a quality test fullback. Watching the Pro12, the level is so far off test rugby that I actually believe it is not even that relevant to international selection nowadays.

The Pro 12 is indeed woeful, and he has flattered to deceive there at 13, you must apply the same logic for both positions. Thankfully for Ulster, Payne has looked outstanding in the European competitions also (at fullback). It is no coincidence that we have not seen the same player after his positional switch. Also, since when was Payne not good in the air? There may be better options than him available (see Alex Goode over Mike Brown for England) but he is still good in the air!

Also you are using a rather odd hypothetical situation to suggest that Payne would struggle at international level. You could literally apply that to any fullback in the world. Shut down their counter attacking game and most of the best fullbacks are no longer as good. Well, obviously!

Exactly, so its not what you're going to judge him on. The opportunities to counter-attack are much rarer so the parts of the game where he excels are not going to be what he is examined on, and ultimately judged on. It's not hypothetical to suggest that he'd have less space for attacking its just a fact. I'm not suggesting he would struggle- although I don't think he would excel- but I am suggesting he would struggle compared to Kearney.

Listen, I would start Payne every day at 15 for Ulster in big games. And I would rate him there. But not at test level. I think at test level he is more likely to succeed at 13. It's just a different type of game when you make that jump with less counter-attacking opportunities and much more accurate chasing/competing in the air from opposition teams.

[Nachos Jones]

For the record, I wouldn't drop Rob Kearney. However, I just find it very odd that the same people who defend Payne at 13 and say to give him a chance, can also say he isn't a test class fullback when he has never played there internationally. Despite it being his clear best position are European level. Same standards please!

Personally I feel that Kearney is not playing that well Rory. I am probably wrong in my opinion but do feel a games rest may do him the world of good. This and with Earls looking very good again and having loads of experience at 13 Internationally, I feel he may be forcing Schmidts hand somewhat.

That said, I believe that Earls will be in the squad but on the bench as backs cover.

TOD went off today so I am wondering if he will be fit to make the squad next weekend, that could be a huge loss for Ireland.

[Nachos Jones]

Sorry Notch, you really are confusing me here. You rate Payne higher as a 15 for Ulster in the big matches but don't think that he is good enough to play for Ireland at 15? The big matches you refer to are only a slight step down from International rugby and if you feel comfortable to start him there everyday then surely you must have confidence in his abilities at international level?

[Rory_Gallagher]

Although he played very well today and I am a big fan in general, Earls would not fit in very well with the current way that Ireland are playing. Nor do I think Henshaw-Earls would be a successful combination, despite thinking it may have been an option at the start of the tournament. I still do not see Henshaw as a 12 no matter who is played outside him. He can do a good job of course, but hey I like to see players playing where they can best play to their strengths. Henshaw is much more than a battering ram.

Then again, Earls is one of the best centres at breaking the line that Ireland have produced, and he could add some much needed pace to the game. He is definitely capable of making a lot of ground despite having little space. But he isn't a big strike runner like Henshaw or Payne to an extent, which is what Ireland probably need with the current model.

[Nachos Jones]

Fair explanation Rory, I also see Henshaw as a 13 more than 12.

That said, with Henshaw at 12 and Earls 13, it could be a very good partnership. Henshaw does not need to be that battering ram and I see a possibility of them interchanging during matches ala Little and Horan back in the day for Australia.

Henshaw and Payne are defensively solid as a partnership but that's about is as far as I can see.

[Notch]

Sorry Notch, you really are confusing me here. You rate Payne higher as a 15 for Ulster in the big matches but don't think that he is good enough to play for Ireland at 15? The big matches you refer to are only a slight step down from International rugby and if you feel comfortable to start him there everyday then surely you must have confidence in his abilities at international level?

No, I have completely and utterly different selection criteria for Ulster and Ireland. I don't view the two things as being related at all any more. I wouldn't have Payne at 13 for Ulster given the options we have. But I wouldn't consider him anywhere else for Ireland at this juncture, except against maybe Tier 2 sides.

I feel like test rugby is its own game nowadays. Whats good for the provinces may not be good for the national side and vice versa. I don't view Heineken Cup rugby as being at the same level as test rugby, Pro12 isn't even on the same planet.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Unless McCloskey is called up (which is even more unlikely than before given that he may also be receiving a ban) then they are the best options available to Ireland to do the job required. Which is to run hard and make ground.

Like I said I would love to see something different even for the RWC but I fear it will be too soon. I am gutted that Stuart Olding got injured as I think he and Henshaw are destined to be the future irish midfield. Injuries permitting of course..

[Pot Hale]

I don't think there's a lot at stake in this match.

Ireland will win by a few points. But then will lose to Wales in next round, leaving a three-way tie for Round 5.

1. Wales
2. Ireland
3. England

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