Ireland v England - Match Thread

by GunsGerms Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

I know I am two weeks early but Ireland v England on Sunday 1st March will possibly be the 6 nations decider as both teams are the only two teams still undefeated in the 6 nations so far this year.

There are many different angles, plots and sub plots to this game. Here are some of the many things at stake:

Reaburn Shield:

Ireland have held it for 4 consecutive games having defeated previous holders SA in November.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeburn_Shield

3rd place in rankings:

Ireland v England - Match Thread - Page 8 Rating10

Ireland v England - Match Thread - Page 8 Rating10

Triple Crown:

Only Ireland and England can still win this trophy and with due respect to Scotland and Wales who Ireland have yet to play to win it would be some achievement this year.

Grand Slam:

Only Ireland and England and win the slam.

6 nations title:
Obviously France and Wales are still in the running with only one loss but the bookies have Ireland and England as favorites at this point.

Millennium Trophy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Trophy

Eye on the WC:
The earliest Ireland and England could possibly meet at the WC is the Semi finals if they both win their pools and their quarter finals or both come runner up and win their quarters. Either way I think other fixtures such England v Wales and Ireland v France were more important for each nations WC preparations.

Ireland need one more win to tie their record of 10 sucessive wins.

Head to head record:
Overall: England 74 wins Ireland 46 wins
6Nations: England 7 wins Ireland 8 wins

Who is going to win and why?
http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2015/rugby/story/256583.html
Phil Vickery predicts an England win.

Teams:

England:

Ireland:

by Nachos Jones Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:34 pm

Notch wrote:
Nachos Jones wrote:Sorry Notch, you really are confusing me here. You rate Payne higher as a 15 for Ulster in the big matches but don't think that he is good enough to play for Ireland at 15? The big matches you refer to are only a slight step down from International rugby and if you feel comfortable to start him there everyday then surely you must have confidence in his abilities at international level?

No, I have completely and utterly different selection criteria for Ulster and Ireland. I don't view the two things as being related at all any more. I wouldn't have Payne at 13 for Ulster given the options we have. But I wouldn't consider him anywhere else for Ireland at this juncture, except against maybe Tier 2 sides.

I feel like test rugby is its own game nowadays. Whats good for the provinces may not be good for the national side and vice versa. I don't view Heineken Cup rugby as being at the same level as test rugby, Pro12 isn't even on the same planet.

Ok, so you would prefer to see Payne play 15 for Ulster (his best position) in the big games than 15 for Ireland. How is playing him at 15 for Ulster going to help his development as 13 for Ireland? This is where I get confused by what you are saying.

I believe that the European competition is of a very high standard. Playing the French team full of international mercenaries is of the same level or only slightly under international level in my opinion. Not every European match but certainly matches against the big guns.

by **Notch** Sat Feb 21, 2015 6:45 pm

It's not, its a big problem. Whats going to happen is that he'll end up playing 13 for Ulster to help him prepare for test rugby... at least until the World Cup, then who knows?

by WELL-PAST-IT Sat Feb 21, 2015 7:51 pm

Just play your weakest players in strange positions, SL has done it and still come consistently 2nd in the 6N.

by stub Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:42 pm

Pot Hale wrote:I don't think there's a lot at stake in this match.

Ireland will win by a few points. But then will lose to Wales in next round, leaving a three-way tie for Round 5.

1. Wales
2. Ireland
3. England

Not a bad shout there Pot and I could easily see that happening but more likely could see Ireland winning both or could (less easily) see Ireland losing both... France are likely to have a big say too aren't they (not with Ireland obviously)? No offence intended to Scotland either - they'll probably beat Eng this year.. Great Six Nations this year isn't it?!! Smile

by stub Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:46 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Just play your weakest players in strange positions, SL has done it and still come consistently 2nd in the 6N.

It's an (almost) winning formula!! laughing

by **profitius** Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:40 pm

This is a massive match for England and Lancaster especially. Lose this and the 6 nations will once again be out of their hands. If they don't win the championship they'll go into the world cup having won nothing under Lancaster.

by Gooseberry Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:41 pm

May as well go in the way they expect to come out

by stub Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:35 pm

profitius wrote:This is a massive match for England and Lancaster especially. Lose this and the 6 nations will once again be out of their hands. If they don't win the championship they'll go into the world cup having won nothing under Lancaster.

Not sure that it's that important although I would agree that a win would indicate the ability to beat a very good team (which is obviously important in the world cup) which would in turn augur well for September. I'm sure that if England lose then there will be enough perspective to see that it's not the end of the world cup and that lessons can be learnt.

by doctor_grey Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:25 am

stub wrote:
profitius wrote:This is a massive match for England and Lancaster especially. Lose this and the 6 nations will once again be out of their hands. If they don't win the championship they'll go into the world cup having won nothing under Lancaster.

Not sure that it's that important although I would agree that a win would indicate the ability to beat a very good team (which is obviously important in the world cup) which would in turn augur well for September. I'm sure that if England lose then there will be enough perspective to see that it's not the end of the world cup and that lessons can be learnt.

Is it critical? No.
But is it important? Yes.
Winning and losing are habits and mind-sets. And to become accustomed to winning, but coming up short of the big prize, is also a habit and a mind-set. England must cut the cord with the past and win. This is a very big moment.

by stub Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:40 am

I do agree Doc that England need to go out and do everything they can to win and that, if they do, then they are indeed cutting the cord to a less than impressive recent past. That said, if they lose, I won't be overly dejected as I feel they are still a team that is learning and developing. So yes I agree; critical no - important yes. Well said as always.

by bedfordwelsh Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:25 am

Pot Hale wrote:I don't think there's a lot at stake in this match.

Ireland will win by a few points. But then will lose to Wales in next round, leaving a three-way tie for Round 5.

1. Wales
2. Ireland
3. England

Pot,

I said all along that there wouldn't be a slam this year and after our (Wales) opening defeat to England if Wales are going into the Italy match with even and outside sniff of the Championship I will be very happy indeed, especially as I will be in Italy.

by **Notch** Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:09 am

I think Wales will lose to France. Don't write off the French!

by Nachos Jones Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:34 am

Notch wrote:I think Wales will lose to France. Don't write off the French!

I will write them off. Scotland showed how to play the French and Ireland showed how to beat the French. England should brush them aside and I think Wales will scrape a win against them.

by BigTrevsbigmac Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:37 am

Nachos Jones wrote:
Notch wrote:I think Wales will lose to France. Don't write off the French!

I will write them off. Scotland showed how to play the French and Ireland showed how to beat the French. England should brush them aside and I think Wales will scrape a win against them.

Maybe but the big worry for Wales will be the scrum which is probably the weakest in the competition this year. If and it is a big if France play to this strength it could get ugly.

by Nachos Jones Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:39 am

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Nachos Jones wrote:
Notch wrote:I think Wales will lose to France. Don't write off the French!

I will write them off. Scotland showed how to play the French and Ireland showed how to beat the French. England should brush them aside and I think Wales will scrape a win against them.

Maybe but the big worry for Wales will be the scrum which is probably the weakest in the competition this year. If and it is a big if France play to this strength it could get ugly.

That's why I said that Wales would scrape a win. Just feel that they have a little too much for the French, ugly game but Wales to scrape a win.

by doctor_grey Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:35 pm

France is becoming a very strange team under Saint-André. The country has plenty of decent playmaker types, but instead go for the big, straight ahead, one-dimensional attackers. And they seem to be slowing down. Almost seems he brings his players to McDonald's for a cheeseburger eating contest each week. To me, Basteraud seems slower than last season, and his cheeks even seem fatter. They still have the horses, but are they too slow?

by majesticimperialman Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:47 pm

doctor_grey.

France may by not as fast fats as last year, but to say they are slow i think is an understatement. I would not be so ready to call France slow, i think they can still do a good side step when they want to.

by bedfordwelsh Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:02 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Nachos Jones wrote:
Notch wrote:I think Wales will lose to France. Don't write off the French!

I will write them off. Scotland showed how to play the French and Ireland showed how to beat the French. England should brush them aside and I think Wales will scrape a win against them.

Maybe but the big worry for Wales will be the scrum which is probably the weakest in the competition this year. If and it is a big if France play to this strength it could get ugly.

If France start the front row that finished against Ireland then we could be royally screwed, Jenkins has struggled both games but Gatland won't drop him and if Lee doesn't last then god helps on that side of scrum.

by doctor_grey Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:04 pm

I didn't mean they are slow, per se. But they seem do slower and more one dimensional than in the past. To a point where the comparison seems pretty stark to me. I think they have the personnel to beat anyone, but Saint-André doesn't seem to be utilising his players to get the max from them. Hopefully, this continues until after the England match........

by **Notch** Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:33 pm

France vs Wales will be a wonderful test of who can run harder at the opposition midfield. Whose crash ball has the most crash? The impacts will be humongous, the invention will be slight.

by robbo277 Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:04 pm

France vs Wales is basically knock out rugby and I can see it being played as such. No try scorer and low total points may be good bets. Now watch Wales run in two tries early on and force France to open up to chase the game!

by Pot Hale Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:46 pm

So given all the predictions that Ireland can't score tries and will attempt to win by forcing errors and kicking penalties with lots of kick n chase and smothering at the breakdown, and in turn, England will boss it in the set-piece, gain front-foot ball and Ford hits his peak and JJ & Co run riot scoring tries for fun, what are the odds that it will be the other way around - Ireland scoring tries, and England having to kick their points?

by Guest Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:12 pm

Notch wrote:France vs Wales will be a wonderful test of who can run harder at the opposition midfield. Whose crash ball has the most crash? The impacts will be humongous, the invention will be slight.

Yes, I've been thinking this for a while: Gatlandball vs Le Ballon de Gatland. We've both developed similar styles, unfortunately. Could be an awful game. Could be brutal. Could be fireworks. Who knows!

by **LondonTiger** Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:49 am

Pot Hale wrote:So given all the predictions that Ireland can't score tries and will attempt to win by forcing errors and kicking penalties with lots of kick n chase and smothering at the breakdown, and in turn, England will boss it in the set-piece, gain front-foot ball and Ford hits his peak and JJ & Co run riot scoring tries for fun, what are the odds that it will be the other way around - Ireland scoring tries, and England having to kick their points?

The bit in bold is what I have said and what I expect.

Pretty sure you have made up that bit about England as I have seen no-one say that.

by bedfordwelsh Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:12 am

Notch wrote:France vs Wales will be a wonderful test of who can run harder at the opposition midfield. Whose crash ball has the most crash? The impacts will be humongous, the invention will be slight.

Basteraud v Roberts, yeah no subtlety there.

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:35 am

Unstoppable force meets immovable object in both directions.

Question is, which one is the better tackler? Both can be stopped as England have proven over the years; so if they are to be the main axis of both sides game, the ability to allow their backrows access to the ball when tackling or being tackled could be crucial

by GunsGerms Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:28 am

On paper I think England should win this. For years England had a formidable pack and a very disorganised and ineffective back line. However, there are signs at last that they have backs with spark that can win games and show leadership. Brown, Joseph and Burrell spring to mind.

Lancaster is a good coach, he is well organised, well diciplined and brave in selection. However, Ireland's trump card is obviously Schmidt who if Ireland win it will probably because he out foxed Lancaster tactically. The Landsdowne factor is obviously an advantage to Ireland too but I just feel like England might shade this one.

Interesting to see George Ford return to his spiritual home too. He used to support Ireland as a kid and grew up with POC, ROG and Stringer as mentors and friends. As a kid he practiced kicks with Stringer and ROG so it will be interesting to see how he plays.

by Pot Hale Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:28 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:So given all the predictions that Ireland can't score tries and will attempt to win by forcing errors and kicking penalties with lots of kick n chase and smothering at the breakdown, and in turn, England will boss it in the set-piece, gain front-foot ball and Ford hits his peak and JJ & Co run riot scoring tries for fun, what are the odds that it will be the other way around - Ireland scoring tries, and England having to kick their points?

The bit in bold is what I have said and what I expect.

Pretty sure you have made up that bit about England as I have seen no-one say that.

Perhaps not using those words, but there is a presumption amongst various commentators/former players that England will have dominance come scrum time (perhaps not lineout), this will give them front-foot ball, and England are scoring tries. Ford is getting the current flattery as the upcoming 10, and Jonathan Joseph has received a lot of headlines after his Italy game with some likening him to the next Jerry Guscott, and believe he will continue this form against Ireland.

The point I was making though is the expectations people have of both teams and wondering if the reverse may occur.

by GunsGerms Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:40 am

I think England smother at the breakdown or spoil mauls or spoil in general better than any other team in the six nations at the moment. I will be interested to see if England are penalised when defending the maul at all.

by No 7&1/2 Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:57 am

Going to be interesting. I'm more confident about facing Ireland than I was Wales but it's going to be blooming tough. We've had Irelands number for a good few years now so hopefully we can continue. I'm still worried about the 2nd row as that's the one place I feel Ireland may own us. Will be good for Ford to be beat his 2nd team!

by GunsGerms Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:06 am

Stringer used to buy him ice-creams when he was a kid. Now they are team mates at Bath. Must be wierd.

by No 7&1/2 Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:08 am

Living the dream.

by doctor_grey Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:18 am

GunsGerms wrote:Interesting to see George Ford return to his spiritual home too. He used to support Ireland as a kid and grew up with POC, ROG and Stringer as mentors and friends. As a kid he practiced kicks with Stringer and ROG so it will be interesting to see how he plays.

I didn't know this about Ford. I think he could use a little more time with O'Gara practicing his kicking. But not tackling......

by GunsGerms Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:23 am

doctor_grey wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Interesting to see George Ford return to his spiritual home too. He used to support Ireland as a kid and grew up with POC, ROG and Stringer as mentors and friends. As a kid he practiced kicks with Stringer and ROG so it will be interesting to see how he plays.
I didn't know this about Ford. I think he could use a little more time with O'Gara practicing his kicking. But not tackling......

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/six-nations/other-news/i-wanted-ireland-to-win-admits-england-newboy-george-ford-31012969.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11428691/England-fly-half-George-Ford-looking-forward-to-his-Ireland-homecoming-in-Six-Nations-showdown-in-Dublin.html

http://balls.ie/rugby/231970-george-ford-ireland-i-wanted-ireland-to-win/

He still has one of Stringer's Ireland jerseys That Stringer gave him as a kid after an Ireland v England game. Ford was an Ireland fan because his dad was Ireland defense coach.

by No 7&1/2 Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:26 am

You've got to love headline writers eh?

by majesticimperialman Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:42 am

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He still has one of Stringer's Ireland jerseys That Stringer gave him as a kid. Ford was an Ireland fan because his dad was Ireland defense coach.

If you live in a country since a child. it is only natural you would want that country to win any contest against any other country. Even England.

by GunsGerms Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:49 am

He was only in Ireland a few years as far as I know. He was born in England.

by No 7&1/2 Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:51 am

Just to make clear we've all read it and confirmed he supported and supports England and took Ireland as his 2nd team due to his dads coaching haven't we. We haven't just been suckered by the title?

by GunsGerms Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:57 am

No I think he definitely supports Ireland first England second.

Dont be surprised if he skews a kick at goal to lose the game.

#einhornfinkle#lacesout

by No 7&1/2 Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:59 am

The return of posters who half read stuff.

by Breadvan Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:24 am

So after having a shocker on Sunday, George Ford suddenly unmasks himself as double agent Georgie O'Ford..
The dastard!

by GunsGerms Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:29 am

Breadvan wrote:So after having a shocker on Sunday, George Ford suddenly unmasks himself as double agent Georgie O'Ford..
The dastard!

Owen Farrell is also fairly Irish. Both his parents coming from Irish families.

by SecretFly Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:55 am

The old sleeper agent plan XV69-C looks likes it's beginning to pay dividends?

About time! This feeding of lads that don't know what they are until the code word comes in can be an expensive business.

I'm glad Ford is about to pay for his upkeep Wink

by TightHEAD Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:07 pm

GunsGerms wrote:Stringer used to buy him ice-creams when he was a kid. Now they are team mates at Bath. Must be wierd.

Are we sure Stringer wasn't grooming him seeing as they have a bath/shower together after games! Whistle

by SecretFly Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:12 pm

TightHEAD wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:Stringer used to buy him ice-creams when he was a kid. Now they are team mates at Bath. Must be wierd.

Are we sure Stringer wasn't grooming him seeing as they have a bath/shower together after games!

No more soapy fun though as the Ford's child age Hero got the Boot recently. Next time they meet, Ford will be ignoring poor Stringer and his begging cap when he passes the sad bald one on some lonely back street.

The circle of life. Sing it Elton. Make us weep.

by beshocked Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:14 pm

SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/austin-healey-ireland-england-six-nations/14339

Hilarious article.

Seems like Austin Healey has ruffled some feathers.

The Irish guy makes a few fair points but is Zebo really a proven match winner? I always thought he's a bit overrated to be honest whose importance has been inflated by that flick.

O Connell is an excellent player but he's 35 now - I agree with Austin he should be a target because he's a key leader.

I actually find myself agreeing with a lot of what Austin says. I don't think England will put Ireland to the sword. I think it will be a tough contest with England prevailing though.

Will we agree that in order for England to put Ireland to the sword [Healy admittedly never said it but his publication headlined it], they'll have to play the best they've played so far, certainly this year, if not taking in the November Internationals too?
I'd certainly concede that I think Ireland will have to get out of their 'It'll do' yawn mode to have a chance of taking England. And if England stay even on current form (without going the notch up) it'll probably be Ireland's toughest challenge in a number of months - even since the last England encounter in 2014.

Will we also agree that Ireland were within 3 points of England at Twickenham last year; and that Wales were only five points off them a few weeks ago in the Millennium?

Are Ireland a better side than Wales? Jury is out until the two meet but going on last year and most observers so far, they are.
England stamina and conditioning put Wales to the sword in a second half but the scoreline is no suggestion that the overall game was a big mismatch. If Ireland don't put up at least as big a fight as Wales then it'll be the shock of the 6N.

So all you might say is that Austin Healy is right - England could win. But, going on present form of both sides, they truly will have to turn on their potential World Cup winning form to do so. So he's right twice. If Ireland play to their potential and England still win - Lancaster will be happier than he was when they played Wales a few weeks ago.

Secretfly I agree with most of that but even though England beat Wales by only 5 points - the scoreline flattered Wales IMO. Wales in my opinion never looked like they could had an answer to England in the 2nd half.

The game last year vs Ireland was very tight indeed. I guess we'll see on the weekend - both teams are even matched in my opinion - both being the most complete sides in the tournament.

Yes Ireland are better than Wales but England have beaten Ireland 3 times in a row (I know the last game at Twickenham was so close). It's a factor to consider simply because England shouldn't fear Ireland even in Ireland.

I think it's fair to say neither side has quite hit full throttle yet. England started slowly vs Wales and Italy but won, Ireland beat Italy without breaking a sweat - wasn't a pretty game to watch as a neutral but Ireland were comfortably in control. I didn't see the Ireland-France game but sounds like Ireland had things under control.

It's not one of those matches where a team can cruise to victory without getting out of first gear. It's very difficult to call - especially with the break.

You talking about playing to your potential - we might not see both team X and Y playing well against each other because a good attack can be interpreted as just being poor defence by the opposition, a good lineout steal - a shocking lineout by the opposition.

Lacklustre kick chase can make player X look good or equally good kick chase could make player Y look bad because of the pressure.

It's clear that England will need to deal with issues that Ireland will throw at them like the choke tackle and the lineout - areas I expect Ireland to target to get rid of English momentum. I expect key men to target will be Billy V and Haskell.

by Breadvan Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:20 pm

Soapy fun

by TightHEAD Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:22 pm

I think operation Yewtree should look into this!

by TightHEAD Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:22 pm

Now then now then!

by GunsGerms Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:52 pm

The TMO, Shaun Veldsman, for the Ireland v England game was stabbed in SA on Saturday after a super 15 game.

http://www.the42.ie/tmo-ireland-england-stabbed-1954729-Feb2015/

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