Ireland v England - Match Thread

by GunsGerms Mon 16 Feb 2015, 2:23 pm

First topic message reminder :

I know I am two weeks early but Ireland v England on Sunday 1st March will possibly be the 6 nations decider as both teams are the only two teams still undefeated in the 6 nations so far this year.

There are many different angles, plots and sub plots to this game. Here are some of the many things at stake:

Reaburn Shield:

Ireland have held it for 4 consecutive games having defeated previous holders SA in November.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeburn_Shield

3rd place in rankings:

Ireland v England - Match Thread - Page 13 Rating10

Ireland v England - Match Thread - Page 13 Rating10

Triple Crown:

Only Ireland and England can still win this trophy and with due respect to Scotland and Wales who Ireland have yet to play to win it would be some achievement this year.

Grand Slam:

Only Ireland and England and win the slam.

6 nations title:
Obviously France and Wales are still in the running with only one loss but the bookies have Ireland and England as favorites at this point.

Millennium Trophy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Trophy

Eye on the WC:
The earliest Ireland and England could possibly meet at the WC is the Semi finals if they both win their pools and their quarter finals or both come runner up and win their quarters. Either way I think other fixtures such England v Wales and Ireland v France were more important for each nations WC preparations.

Ireland need one more win to tie their record of 10 sucessive wins.

Head to head record:
Overall: England 74 wins Ireland 46 wins
6Nations: England 7 wins Ireland 8 wins

Who is going to win and why?
http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2015/rugby/story/256583.html
Phil Vickery predicts an England win.

Teams:

England:

Ireland:

by Gooseberry Fri 27 Feb 2015, 1:16 pm

Yeah its not like he even won a world cup unlike Sir Johnny Wilkinson.

by GunsGerms Fri 27 Feb 2015, 1:18 pm

He doesnt really have much to prove. You cant really win games by yourself and he has played reasonably well on each occasion v England IMO except some of his kicks which he seems to have improved a lot on.

by lostinwales Fri 27 Feb 2015, 1:25 pm

There were mitigating circumstances last time out too. At least that article isn't as bad as the 'how to make rugby safer' one.

by SecretFly Fri 27 Feb 2015, 1:25 pm

beshocked wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31641456

Articles like this annoy me. You could imagine that Tom Fordyce would faint if he met Sexton in person. Plus it's inaccurate - this is Ford's 2nd 6 nations.

It's easily forgotten that though Sexton is a good player it was his error against England that last year proved a turning point.

Last 3 years Sexton has played England and not delivered a win.

Sexton has a lot to prove against England of all opponents.

And after a brief respite for tea and sandwiches - welcome back to the real world of bite and sizzle.

Shocked, what's the problem now? Too much respect for Sexton being shown? Ford should have got the whole article to himself without a mention of Sexton? Ford should have been written up as the more potent threat in that position. Fordyce should have painted the piece to have it sound more that Sexton feared the unknown in Ford more than Ford might be apprehensive about the known in Sexton?

What's the problem with the article that mentions Sexton in about five out of twentysomething paragraphs? It's not a journalist's job to do the gung ho "Let's be having them" treatises. That's for people like you - a fan - to engage in if it's your fancy.

It was a balanced piece.

And Sexton was concussed and should have been off the field last year when he was making his mistakes that lost a game in Twickers by 3 points.

by beshocked Fri 27 Feb 2015, 1:55 pm

Secretfly I guess I just find the whole Sexton-Ford comparison silly - master vs apprentice guff.

Gunsgerms disagree. He needs to prove he can beat this England side (Lancaster's) with him pulling the strings. If he does that on the weekend that will be another notch to his belt.

You are right you can't win games by yourself but you would think Sexton does by the media.

You can almost guarantee that the pre match hyperbole on sunday will be Sexton vs Ford whilst I feel that Cole vs Healy, 2nd row battle and battle of the 9s are arguably more important.

I should add I think Sexton is a good player but I don't think he will be the most important Irishman on Sunday.

by SecretFly Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:00 pm

beshocked wrote:

I should add I think Sexton is a good player but I don't think he will be the most important Irishman on Sunday.

He won't. There'll be 23 of them. Just like England. But Profiles sell newstime. Healy is a second halfer. Cole will be coming off as he comes on Wink

by the-goon Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:06 pm

Ireland team as expected. Jordi in at 8, and Tommy O'Donnell on the bench the only changes.

by **Notch** Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:07 pm

Eoin Reddan on the bench instead of Isaac Boss as well.

by **Notch** Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:09 pm

beshocked wrote:Secretfly I guess I just find the whole Sexton-Ford comparison silly - master vs apprentice guff.

Gunsgerms disagree. He needs to prove he can beat this England side (Lancaster's) with him pulling the strings. If he does that on the weekend that will be another notch to his belt.

You are right you can't win games by yourself but you would think Sexton does by the media.

You can almost guarantee that the pre match hyperbole on sunday will be Sexton vs Ford whilst I feel that Cole vs Healy, 2nd row battle and battle of the 9s are arguably more important.

I should add I think Sexton is a good player but I don't think he will be the most important Irishman on Sunday.

Now you know how everyone else felt when Wilkinson was in his pomp. Media idolises 10s. Always has done, always will.

by beshocked Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:09 pm

Secretfly that's my point though - there will be 23 Irishman - Sexton is just 1.

The scrum proved to be the most decisive in 2012. In 2013 it was the kicking battle in tough conditions. Last year it was such a close game - Sexton's missed kick off proved costly.

It could well be the lineouts this season - Paul O Connell will be of course a key player.

Though it might well come to one mistake or bit of brilliance - we'll see on sunday.

Notch Sexton is not Jonny Wilkinson though.

by GunsGerms Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:11 pm

No Luke Fitz despite all the bleating for his inclusion.

I reckon he wont get any game time for Ireland between now and the end of the WC.

by **Notch** Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:12 pm

beshocked wrote:Notch Sexton is not Jonny Wilkinson though.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

by the-goon Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:12 pm

That as well. Forgot he hasn't been included since.

No complaints with the personnel, it will be interesting how they perform.

I hope we have a cut against this largely untested English backline, they will certainly be thinking the same thing about ours.

Hopefully it will be as good as last year. I'm getting nervous even now

by SecretFly Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:15 pm

beshocked wrote:Secretfly that's my point though - there will be 23 Irishman - Sexton is just 1.

Notch Sexton is not Jonny Wilkinson though.

So why an article on Ford? Didn't understand it that your reservations were about Ford being isolated from his 23 team mates? Nope, just when Johnny gets a mention does it become an issue.

Wilkinson had his time and did his thing. Johnny is in his time doing his thing. We'll wait until Johnny's career is over before even attempting to compare. But you're right. No matter how good Johnny may prove to be - he'll never be Wilkinson. He'll be Johnny Sexton. And that'll be enough for us and him.

by lostinwales Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:17 pm

beshocked wrote:Secretfly that's my point though - there will be 23 Irishman - Sexton is just 1.

The scrum proved to be the most decisive in 2012. In 2013 it was the kicking battle in tough conditions. Last year it was such a close game - Sexton's missed kick off proved costly.

It could well be the lineouts this season - Paul O Connell will be of course a key player.

Though it might well come to one mistake or bit of brilliance - we'll see on sunday.

Notch Sexton is not Jonny Wilkinson though.

Late model Wilkinson wasn't a touch on the early model but he did have that aura that seem to make the rest of the team play better. I would guess the Irish version is POC, more than Sexton.

by beshocked Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:30 pm

secretfly I agree Ford shouldn't be hyped up too. One of the BBC pundits gave Ford the man of the match awards vs Wales - I wonder if they watched the match. Ford had a good 2nd half but he wasn't the best Englishman.

Lostinwales I agree. I don't really see Sexton as an Irish talisman just yet - good player but not as you say he's not O Connell.

Wilkinson was an English talisman.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:35 pm

Sexton is probably the best fly half in the world though tbf.

by geoff999rugby Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:39 pm

beshocked wrote:secretfly I agree Ford shouldn't be hyped up too. One of the BBC pundits gave Ford the man of the match awards vs Wales - I wonder if they watched the match. Ford had a good 2nd half but he wasn't the best Englishman.

Lostinwales I agree. I don't really see Sexton as an Irish talisman just yet - good player but not as you say he's not O Connell.

Wilkinson was an English talisman.

According to Schmidt he is - basically said he had 5 leaders on the pitch who were key - Best, POC, Heaslip, Sexton, Kearney

For me Ireland have 4 players who they really cant do without POC, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton

by GunsGerms Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:40 pm

Sexton is aparently Ireland's most vociferous player around the park or at least possibly after POC. He is a great leader IMO.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:42 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sexton is probably the best fly half in the world though tbf.

NH yes, world much more debateable.

by SecretFly Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:48 pm

Sexton doesn't know the notion of 'being led'. Even O'Driscoll said he had verbal battles with him and could rarely get Sexton to backdown and say he was wrong.

There's a really funny video of himself and Heaslip being interviewed some time ago. And Heaslip is winding up Sexton about his temper tantrums. "lovely guy off the field but on it................." And he made a specific reference to the Lions... laughing at Sexton about the Lions guys not being ready for the tantrum kid Sexton....
and all the while Sexton is mumbling in the background - half smiling, half serious - "Nah, that's not true. That's not true"

Even then, in a light hearted moment. He was backing himself to the hilt.

Sexton is a leader. He'll hardly get the Captaincy when POC goes (we prefer forwards getting it), but I'd be very comfortable with him having it.

by majesticimperialman Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:48 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Sexton is probably the best fly half in the world though tbf.

I think Arun Cruden may have something to say about that.

by SecretFly Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:53 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Sexton is probably the best fly half in the world though tbf.

I think Arun Cruden may have something to say about that.

Cruden has an armchair. That's a step ahead already.

Give him the Ireland team.... and we'll take the ABs for a few months.......................... until after the WC maybe Wink

by Alex_Germany Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:55 pm

I didn't realise Sexton is 29! I suppose he was kept waiting a long time by O'Gara. Also Wilkinson, Cipriani, Farrell and Ford are just early developers.

by GunsGerms Fri 27 Feb 2015, 2:58 pm

Alex_Germany wrote:I didn't realise Sexton is 29! I suppose he was kept waiting a long time by O'Gara. Also Wilkinson, Cipriani, Farrell and Ford are just early developers.

He was quite young when he starred in the 2009 heineken cup final. Up until that point he had Contempomi ahead of him in Leinster and ROG with Ireland.

by beshocked Fri 27 Feb 2015, 3:01 pm

I guess by not wanting to put focus on Sexton inadvertently I have shone the spotlight on him.

When will the Irish team be announced? Is this the Irish mind games? Wait until as late as possible till the team is announced to keep us all guessing? Much smarter than mouthing off about the roof and arguing about who leaves the tunnel first......

by **Notch** Fri 27 Feb 2015, 3:02 pm

beshocked wrote:I guess by not wanting to put focus on Sexton inadvertently I have shone the spotlight on him.

When will the Irish team be announced? Is this the Irish mind games? Wait until as late as possible till the team is announced to keep us all guessing? Much smarter than mouthing off about the roof and arguing about who leaves the tunnel first......

It was announced an hour ago, so no.

by beshocked Fri 27 Feb 2015, 3:05 pm

Why is no one talking about the line up then?

Seems to be no mention of this Jordi Murphy - who is he? Any good?

No start for Healy - surely that's a big talking point.

Thanks Notch I have only just seen it.

by **Notch** Fri 27 Feb 2015, 3:09 pm

I guess no-ones talking about it because it doesn't contain anything that could be called a surprise. The only doubt is whether Healy or McGrath would start the rest of the team we already knew.

Murphy is a good player, technically very well rounded, but slightly on the small side for a test 8.

by BamBam Fri 27 Feb 2015, 3:09 pm

Looking at the benches, the Irish do have some serious impact that could be a factor.

Moore is arguably a stronger scrummager than Ross, Cronin, Healy and Henderson are all very strong carriers and O'Donnell is an out and out openside.

If the game opens up in the last 20, I worry about the damage those chaps could do

by SecretFly Fri 27 Feb 2015, 3:09 pm

beshocked wrote:Why is no one talking about the line up then?

Seems to be no mention of this Jordi Murphy - who is he? Any good?

No start for Healy - surely that's a big talking point.

Thanks Notch I have only just seen it.

Healy not starting isn't a big deal. He's been treated with a WC in mind more than a 6N. So easy kids steps for him. It's always going to be a risk no matter how much time you do but I'd guess he's still being broken in gently rather than it be a specific tactic.

by geoff999rugby Fri 27 Feb 2015, 3:41 pm

beshocked no one talking about it because the starting 15 is probably what 95% of the knowledgeable Irish rugby public expected anyway.

Typical Schmidt - I say that as a matter of fact not a criticism

by Sin é Fri 27 Feb 2015, 3:52 pm

beshocked - Only bit of controversy/criticism is that Felix Jones is in the 23 (explained by Schmidt as Earls needing more gametime and Luke Fitz being left footed which would mean 3 left footed players in the back 3 if Bowe was to go off).

by **rodders** Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:02 pm

The closer this game comes the more I believe Ireland will win.

England definitely will cause problems up front and at the breakdown - I think we are underpowered in both departments and may struggle for parity. Their backrow has a clear edge, with or without Heaslip.

However I think we have far superior half backs.... Ford is talented but inexperienced and Youngs hates coming to Ireland, every time he's over he has a nightmare.

And the other area we have a big edge is the midfield defence and that will be the difference in a tight game.

Ireland by 8-12 points.

by GunsGerms Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:03 pm

We might need to do a number on Robshaw.

by lostinwales Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:06 pm

rodders wrote:The closer this game comes the more I believe Ireland will win.

England definitely will cause problems up front and at the breakdown - I think we are underpowered in both departments and may struggle for parity. Their backrow has a clear edge, with or without Heaslip.

However I think we have far superior half backs.... Ford is talented but inexperienced and Youngs hates coming to Ireland, every time he's over he has a nightmare.

And the other area we have a big edge is the midfield defence and that will be the difference in a tight game.

Ireland by 8-12 points.

Dunno. Where are you going to score points apart from kicks? And for all England's much publicized defensive failings they are capable of fixing them as well, as they showed vs Wales. Could be a good day for Billy V if you ask me.

by Gooseberry Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:09 pm

GunsGerms wrote:We might need to do a number on Robshaw.

Worsely Tackled the poo out of "your lot" a few years ago, to no avail. Theres even a Goode in the side to give away a stupid yellow card in a pathetic attempt at defending.

Honestly though its anyones call on this, we have seen a couple of games go crazy between these two sides in recent years as well as close contests.

by beshocked Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:14 pm

That's interesting rodders because the closer the game comes the more I believe England will win.

Ireland might well cause England problems at the lineout as Ireland are good disrupting. I feel that England will get on top of Ireland at the scrum. As for the breakdown - depends how Ireland handle Haskell and Billy. Wales couldn't keep Haskell quiet, Italy couldn't keep Billy quiet. Equally England will need to stop Sean O Brien.

As for the centre battle - I can see Burrell and Joseph causing some real problems. Burrell has been relatively quiet so far but that might make Ireland focus on him less.

Back three - with England having effectively 3 full backs they should be able to handle the inevitable high balls coming their way.

Youngs was on the winning team in 2013. Not sure you can say he hates coming to Ireland.

England by 5 points IMO.

by **Notch** Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:19 pm

lostinwales wrote:
rodders wrote:The closer this game comes the more I believe Ireland will win.

England definitely will cause problems up front and at the breakdown - I think we are underpowered in both departments and may struggle for parity. Their backrow has a clear edge, with or without Heaslip.

However I think we have far superior half backs.... Ford is talented but inexperienced and Youngs hates coming to Ireland, every time he's over he has a nightmare.

And the other area we have a big edge is the midfield defence and that will be the difference in a tight game.

Ireland by 8-12 points.

Dunno. Where are you going to score points apart from kicks? And for all England's much publicized defensive failings they are capable of fixing them as well, as they showed vs Wales. Could be a good day for Billy V if you ask me.

I think we'll see Ireland get a few tries off power plays that we haven't seen so far. This is the game where we'll see what we've been keeping up our sleeves. Can't wait.

by TightHEAD Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:22 pm

The Irish seem very confident seeing as they struggled against a very poor one dimensional French team.

by GunsGerms Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:25 pm

TightHEAD wrote:The Irish seem very confident seeing as they struggled against a very poor one dimensional French team.

The same France team that England lost to the last time they played them? I think Ireland were in control for pretty much the whole game so not too concerned about it.

by beshocked Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:32 pm

Gunsgerms France at home are a different beast to France away.

You were in control vs Italy too but you're inability to score tries against 15 men has to be questioned.

Tighthead I think Irish confidence comes from Irish fans believing that they have not got out of 1st gear yet.

They are probably right but England are a tougher side than both Italy and France.

by MunsterMac Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:32 pm

The Irish seem very confident seeing as they struggled against a very poor one dimensional French team.

What?!? We are!!

Why wasn't I informed??

by **Notch** Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:38 pm

TightHEAD wrote:The Irish seem very confident seeing as they struggled against a very poor one dimensional French team.

We've beaten Australia, South Africa and France at home this season. We know we cane beaten but we also know we can win against pretty much anybody. We'll be polite and respectful about a decent England side that is coming over but we've got no reason to talk ourselves down or expect to be beaten.

by lostinwales Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:39 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:The Irish seem very confident seeing as they struggled against a very poor one dimensional French team.

The same France team that England lost to the last time they played them? I think Ireland were in control for pretty much the whole game so not too concerned about it.

France got one really good try and were gifted two more and only just won, at home, against a very inexperienced England that scored tries of their own. If we gift Ireland a couple then we will lose. If we dont..

by TightHEAD Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:40 pm

beshocked wrote:Gunsgerms France at home are a different beast to France away.

You were in control vs Italy too but you're inability to score tries against 15 men has to be questioned.

Tighthead I think Irish confidence comes from Irish fans believing that they have not got out of 1st gear yet.

They are probably right but England are a tougher side than both Italy and France.

But they're not the same French team, if's and Buts!

I really don't think Ireland have been tested yet and have been made to look good by two poor teams.

by asoreleftshoulder Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:44 pm

TightHEAD wrote:The Irish seem very confident seeing as they struggled against a very poor one dimensional French team.

Struggled?We won comfortably despite not playing very well.

by beshocked Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:45 pm

True tighthead but they can only beat what is in front of them.

To be fair to Ireland they haven't needed to be better yet. Against England you would think they'll have to play better, equally England will need to be sharper too.

England cannot start slowly for the 3rd game in the row.

England's downfall has been their slow start - e.g. against France last year and Wales in 2013.

Cannot allow a side like Ireland to get too far ahead to pull it back.

by Gwlad Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:46 pm

Does Stewie's selection policy have something to do with proximity to the touch line? May is harsh and a poor decision as with Brown out and Sexton on fire the irish will bomb Bomber's unsettled back 3 all afternoon

Haskell keeping Croft out means the Haskellhoff is fully now a part of Bomber's long term thinking. Big selection for him….would Wood walk back in now?

by beshocked Fri 27 Feb 2015, 4:50 pm

Gwlad Ireland didn't have much luck when they tried bombing England's back three in 2013. Might be different this time round but with 3 effective full backs I am not sure it will work.

Lancaster has his dream combo of 3 full backs.

No wood wouldn't walk back in. Haskell gives you an extra ball carrier in the backrow to support Billy.

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