ireland 6N warmdown and look ahead to RWC

First topic message reminder :



Two years in a row!! Both tournaments have been close run, but this team has come on leaps and bounds in the time Schmidt has been in charge. The team is playing with a confidence that has rarely been seen as consistently as this from past Irish teams, we can vary the gameplan to meet the needs of the contest, the new combinations are starting to gell, and we have genuine competition in most positions around the pitch.

So rather than scurrying around the rest of the forum attempting to put out fires that try to feebly illegitimise the championship win, I think we can look back on another positive campaign showing real growth but with plenty of areas for improvement.

Six Nations
Comfortable if not spectacular for the most part. The team looked in control in games versus Italy and France without impressing two much, both results felt like a job done. Against England and Scotland were the real high points. Ireland's plan of attack put England on the back foot for most of the game with Sexton and Murray managing the game brilliantly. Against Scotland it was great to see us play positive and expansive stuff, it is good to know we can play that ball in hand game and have the players to do so. The low point was the Wales game, but even then I feel the territory and possession Ireland had was encouraging, but there are lessons to be learned about finishing chances and adapting to the ref (although credit also to the Welsh defense who were immense).

The Squad
Front Row: McGrath has shown more evidence he is an able replacement to Healy, for me he is not that far off now and was unlucky to lose his place. Rory Best is fantastic in the loose and at the breakdown, but at times his throws can be suspect and Cronin is a great option to bring on and run the ball. Total turnaround for Mike Ross, had a very strong campaign I thought, and great there is finally an able body to come on in Marty Moore
Lock: POC is absolutely vital to the cause and I worry about the impact of his loss more so than BOD. Toner has become a beast in the last two years, but I would love to see what Henderson is capable of starting for Ireland. Getting the best locks in Ireland fit at the right times (Touhy and Ryan are both useful options) has been a problem but these three currently are head and shoulders above the challengers.
Back Row: One of our strongest positions in quality and depth. SOB grew into the tournament, Heaslip and POM work incredibly hard. Honorable mention to Murphy for his early performances which were very positive.
Half Backs: Sexton and Murray have to be the form pair in the world right now, blip against Wales aside. The drop off in quality from those two is a concern, although Reddan had a very strong cameo against Wales. The position of understudy for 10 is still very much up for grabs between Madigan, Jackson and Keatley. I feel the team need to bring on Marmion more as well.
Centres: Starting to get to know each other's games. Henshaw has been absolute quality in all performances, reliably outstanding. Payne has grown into the role and really shone against Scotland. I think there  may be options in coming through in Olding, McCloskey, Marshall and eventually Ringrose, and I'd say Henshaw may eventually move to 13 in green, but I'd wager the incumbents go into the world cup as 12 and 13.
Wings: Another area of strength, with some great variety in the options. Zebo was unlucky to miss out against Scotland but Fitzgerald made a real difference. Bowe for me has been solid but I think Trimble has been missed. Earls for me should be competing for this spot rather than at centre and I would like to see Gilroy push on from his early promise. I have slight concerns about how the wingers are slowly losing their creativity as they come into the set up a la Zebo, and would like to see them try something other than take the soonest contact and recycle
Full Back: Not sure about Rob. Not pulling up and trees but hasn't let anyone down either. I don't know if Jones offers much else that Kearney doesn't. I'd say there are more creative options in the wings that can play fullback in the Pro 12 but against the other 6Ns fullbacks I don't know when they could be blooded. Payne at 15 maybe?

World Cup
Anything other than a semi-final appearance would be a huge disappointment following the last two years of progress. A semi-final win at Twickers against England is certainly doable but it would be a big ask. Despite the last showing at a World Cup I am confident Ireland can go further this time.

Best offers great work around the breakdown, but at this point we have to consider if that trades off against his throwing into the lineout, which I'm not hugely confident in. As good as Casey has been this year and I'd like to see him get his chance (he is still young), I can't see anyone displacing Best or Cronin in the matchday for the RWC short of injury.

kunu wrote:Strauss also throws like that, like he's aiming rather than hoping. He's almost never crooked, which is a lot better than what our current hookers offer. I think Cronin's speed is a bit of a gimmick at times, and other parts of his game are lacking - his passing isn't great, throwing as you've said is below par and he doesn't seem to be able to hook the ball under pressure.

Its the pace on the ball as well. Opposition players just don't have a chance to get up and steal the ball.

Bearing in mind that both Damian Varley & Mike Sherry ended up going to the world cup the last time, I'm just surprised that he hasn't included Duncan Casey in the squad learning the system at least.

Otherwise from Munster (no thread on it here, so I'll just mention it) - Simon Zebo scored a great try (superb finish) v Connacht and Keith Earls is on fire. His pace is something else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9n8Z9V2JnY

Jack O'Donoghue (No 8 is going to be some player - great pace, awareness and hands).

I don't think Casey offers too much in the loose. Its a real pity about Sherry because he would be up there challenging Best now IMO. He is very good and hopefully they'll get the shoulder sorted.


Jack O'Donoghue looks great alright. Early days yet but he is a serious athlete. Speaking of Munster backrows Dave O'Callaghan is playing well lately. He looks to be back to his best and could be a world cup bolter.

Sin é wrote:

kunu wrote:Strauss also throws like that, like he's aiming rather than hoping. He's almost never crooked, which is a lot better than what our current hookers offer. I think Cronin's speed is a bit of a gimmick at times, and other parts of his game are lacking - his passing isn't great, throwing as you've said is below par and he doesn't seem to be able to hook the ball under pressure.

Its the pace on the ball as well. Opposition players just don't have a chance to get up and steal the ball.

Bearing in mind that both Damian Varley & Mike Sherry ended up going to the world cup the last time, I'm just surprised that he hasn't included Duncan Casey in the squad learning the system at least.

Otherwise from Munster (no thread on it here, so I'll just mention it) - Simon Zebo scored a great try (superb finish) v Connacht and Keith Earls is on fire. His pace is something else.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9n8Z9V2JnY

Jack O'Donoghue (No 8 is going to be some player - great pace, awareness and hands).

Zebo's grab and ability to reach the line was something else. We all know about Earls pace but what about his awareness, something that has been criticised a lot but his awareness and offloading has been brilliant yet again. Could not agree more with Casey, proper lineout thrower and hooker, still early days for him but he certainly must be pushing for selection.

As for Jack O'Donoghue, well he is something else and within 2 years will be certainly in the Irish squad.

Sin é wrote:Fly, Gatland outcoached Schmidt recently. I'd imagine there are a fair few clever coaches out there who will be able to do the same.

By busting his and his players balls - aided by that super-fitdom that they get themselves into during campaigns  - the One thing we could actually learn from Gats, btw.  He allows no excuses in having his players the fittest in most competitions he enters.  You can't carry out any tactics unless you have the genuine 80 minutes of high tempo stamina to meet the challenges.

He didn't out-think.  He outran, out rucked and out harried Ireland (and was aided in the first half by a ref who pinged Ireland and pinged Ireland like it was open season for sitting ducks.)  And Gatland might have paid the price of his slash and burn all-out endeavour at the end had Ireland been a tad more blunt and bloodthirsty during their siege at the Welsh line.

Wales were knackered - even in their super-fitness - at the end and played one of their best games of the season to pull off that win.  Ireland played way below themselves and still almost pulled off a win.

Meanwhile, I Did say we'll lose again.  Losing happens even to the best sides.  And losing might happen again when we least want it to at the World Cup.  And we might disappoint again. Outcoached   My point is Schmidt is still a coach we'd be idiots to let slide by without a fight because NO coach - none of them - could claim to work harder or more clinically than he does to learn from his errors.

I agree with Sin é SecretFly, Gatland did out think Schmidt in the Welsh game, he recognized the tactics that Ireland would play and countered it with the very same tactics and the Welsh lads did it better. This caught Schmidt and Ireland cold.

I do not blame the ref at all in the first half, he set a tone stuck to it and Ireland adjusted to it better than Wales did since Wales received a yellow card for persistent infringements and Ireland didn't.

As for the fitness comment... If Wales are so much fitter than Ireland (which I don't think is the case) then surely Schmidt is failing in that regard of his coaching?

Ireland, as myself and a few others had feared, were simply lacking in a gameplan to chase a team from behind and time and time again blew chances that should have led to points due to the lack of awareness coached into them by means of playing safety rather than attack. Wales (regardless of what others think) defended quite comfortably in the last 20mins of the match as Ireland were so predictable in attack.

Nachos, you agree with Sin on Schmidt being outcoached.  I don't.  We'll agree to differ on that one too.  

During that game we can see Welsh players slowing down Irish ball by the bucket load, illegally and the ref standing there looking at them.  If he was keeping to his standards, Wales might have had more yellows not less.  You see what you see and I see what I see.  Warburton knew the score.  He was almost crying with relief.  Ireland didn't use one genuine back move from their armoury to unlock them at the end.  Showed nothing that was designed to finally unlock an exhausted defence.

And despite some media myths, Ireland didn't suddenly learn to play mid-week of that following week.  Anyone who suggests that is talking bunk.  It was obviously strategy (campaign long strategy) not to be expansive for the campaign.  And Schmidt would have been happiest had he not needed to show anything for Scotland either.  It was a direction from the coach, not a choice by the players.  

We'll see if Schmidt can get the last laugh on that score when the Real show hits town in November.  He got his second 6N title by showing very little and playing by far the least rugby of the top three contenders.  Some see that as him being finally found out - I say that's some feat winning a 6N with 8 tries for and 3 against.  He's proving his brooding smartness, not disproving it.  And coaches like Hansen are genuinely wondering about him more than the sides showing all they have (England, Wales)



On the other fitness point  - yes, I really think Wales are so much fitter than Ireland in most competitions.  In important contests I'd advance that they've been fitter than all sides now for a number of years.  It's plain to see how much each individual improves when they leave Region and step into Wales camp.  It's there to see that stamina levels increase tenfold, that physical strength levels go up too.  For Gatland it's central to his tactics to have his players at the very peak.  He prides himself on the idea that as Wales warms up through contests they improve, improve, improve on those all important fitness measurements.   

And it's only in about the last two years that English rugby in general (club that is as much as International) have upped their fitness levels to join the Welsh; so that they can begin to play the game they want to bring to their International side (high-speed, offloading, strike running attack that lasts for extended periods and remains accurate due to superior speed-stamina conditioning)  This is all powered and financed by the big investment in the coming World Cup - the Olympicification of rugby is you will - where no technical high-priced apparatus or technique has or will be too much or too expensive.

So in Europe I believe the two sides that are above all current standards of fitness preparedness are and will be Wales and England.  If we get our house in order we might have ourselves ready enough to compete with them or at least cling onto them as they try to run us off the field - but those two sides will be the standard bearers at the World Cup for uber-fitness.

Fly, were Wales that exhausted at the end? Of course they were as they played 80mins of intense rugby. That said, they were not expending that much energy in the last 20mins due to Irelands inability to create many attacking runs that truly sap the energy of a team on the defense.

Once again, I do not think that the ref had a bad game, I felt that he was very pedantic (bang on the laws) but very consistent. Ireland were just as busy on the slowing of the ball at the breakdown as the Welsh were, they simply adjusted more to the ref than Wales did.

I don't think that Ireland suddenly learnt to play an expansive game midweek for the Scotland match, I believe that it had been worked upon but the heavy reliance for the safety approach affected them for the Wales game as they were caught cold. Ireland simply worked harder on it midweek knowing that there was a high possibility that they would have to use it against Scotland. Against Scotland, they looked far more fluid in attack than against Wales.

Gatland, in my opinion, certainly got Schmidt that game as his tactics were fully defined to nullify Irelands aerial threat. It was a lesson for Schmidt and one that I feel will hurt him and he will be better prepared.

One more thing before the usual suspects come on here and miss-quote me from here to Tokyo...

I do believe that Schmidt is a good coach, has done a very good job so far and is definitely the best man for the job currently.

The only weakness I see is perhaps a lack of tries... but otherwise they're as good as I've ever seen them. Got to be thinking anything bar a world cup final will not suffice.
Even Sexton is now not seen as irreplaceable. Bodes well for the tournament ahead.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

I do believe that Schmidt is a good coach, has done a very good job so far and is definitely the best man for the job currently.

How can you sit there and say that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is even beneath you, Nachos!!! What do you have against the man??? You're always on his case ready to say he's done a very good job so far. You're always jabbing him about being 'best man for the job currently'!!!!

Stop with the agenda against him!!! It doesn't paint you in a good light.

Have I mis-quoted you enough there???

Not of the Notch or GunsGerms level yet SecretFly but you will get there

SecretFly wrote:Nachos, you agree with Sin on Schmidt being outcoached.  I don't.  We'll agree to differ on that one too.  

During that game we can see Welsh players slowing down Irish ball by the bucket load, illegally and the ref standing there looking at them.  If he was keeping to his standards, Wales might have had more yellows not less.  You see what you see and I see what I see.  Warburton knew the score.  He was almost crying with relief.  Ireland didn't use one genuine back move from their armoury to unlock them at the end.  Showed nothing that was designed to finally unlock an exhausted defence.

And despite some media myths, Ireland didn't suddenly learn to play mid-week of that following week.  Anyone who suggests that is talking bunk.  It was obviously strategy (campaign long strategy) not to be expansive for the campaign.  And Schmidt would have been happiest had he not needed to show anything for Scotland either.  It was a direction from the coach, not a choice by the players.  

We'll see if Schmidt can get the last laugh on that score when the Real show hits town in November.  He got his second 6N title by showing very little and playing by far the least rugby of the top three contenders.  Some see that as him being finally found out - I say that's some feat winning a 6N with 8 tries for and 3 against.  He's proving his brooding smartness, not disproving it.  And coaches like Hansen are genuinely wondering about him more than the sides showing all they have (England, Wales)

This is what I find amusing - everyone is making excuses for the lack of trys 'because Schmidt doesn't want to let anything out for the world cup'.

That is absolute madness if that is the case (and I doubt if its true). Very hard to 'turn it on' if you have never done it.
All the players are capable of are hitting rucks (with the backs as good as the forwards). Henshaw is being turned into a big lump of a defender, similar is expected from Payne and Zebo is losing his X factor and being turned into a donkey as well. Even Tommy Bowe looks after the player he was in attack as he was a year ago.

fa0019 wrote:The only weakness I see is perhaps a lack of tries... but otherwise they're as good as I've ever seen them. Got to be thinking anything bar a world cup final will not suffice.
Even Sexton is now not seen as irreplaceable. Bodes well for the tournament ahead.

Really? Ireland look so much better with Sexton there in my opinion.

Sin é wrote:

This is what I find amusing - everyone is making excuses for the lack of trys 'because Schmidt doesn't want to let anything out for the world cup'.

That is absolute madness if that is the case (and I doubt if its true). Very hard to 'turn it on' if you have never done it.
All the players are capable of are hitting rucks (with the backs as good as the forwards). Henshaw is being turned into a big lump of a defender, similar is expected from Payne and Zebo is losing his X factor and being turned into a donkey as well. Even Tommy Bowe looks after the player he was in attack as he was a year ago.

I find it amusing that you are so critical of the team when they are more successful than they have ever been.When Deccie had the team operating around a 50% win rate,losing as many home games as they won and getting nilled by NZ you said the players weren't good enough and that it wouldn't matter who coached them.Now that we've won back to back 6N you suddenly become ultra critical,can you explain why you're expectations of the Irish team have changed so much?

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Nachos, you agree with Sin on Schmidt being outcoached.  I don't.  We'll agree to differ on that one too.  

During that game we can see Welsh players slowing down Irish ball by the bucket load, illegally and the ref standing there looking at them.  If he was keeping to his standards, Wales might have had more yellows not less.  You see what you see and I see what I see.  Warburton knew the score.  He was almost crying with relief.  Ireland didn't use one genuine back move from their armoury to unlock them at the end.  Showed nothing that was designed to finally unlock an exhausted defence.

And despite some media myths, Ireland didn't suddenly learn to play mid-week of that following week.  Anyone who suggests that is talking bunk.  It was obviously strategy (campaign long strategy) not to be expansive for the campaign.  And Schmidt would have been happiest had he not needed to show anything for Scotland either.  It was a direction from the coach, not a choice by the players.  

We'll see if Schmidt can get the last laugh on that score when the Real show hits town in November.  He got his second 6N title by showing very little and playing by far the least rugby of the top three contenders.  Some see that as him being finally found out - I say that's some feat winning a 6N with 8 tries for and 3 against.  He's proving his brooding smartness, not disproving it.  And coaches like Hansen are genuinely wondering about him more than the sides showing all they have (England, Wales)

This is what I find amusing - everyone is making excuses for the lack of trys 'because Schmidt doesn't want to let anything out for the world cup'.

That is absolute madness if that is the case (and I doubt if its true). Very hard to 'turn it on' if you have never done it.
All the players are capable of are hitting rucks (with the backs as good as the forwards). Henshaw is being turned into a big lump of a defender, similar is expected from Payne and Zebo is losing his X factor and being turned into a donkey as well. Even Tommy Bowe looks after the player he was in attack as he was a year ago.

Exactly, I cannot for one second believe that Schmidt is hiding his hand in preparation for the RWC. He would have dearly loved a 6N GS, what coach wouldn't?

It was very clear to me that Schmidt had a set gameplan but had not planned on actually going behind and having to fight for a win. Sure he would have put expansive rugby into the training sessions but I feel that was largely negated by the safety first rugby. When it was required against Wales, Ireland looked very rusty indeed. People like to claim that Wales were on the brink with their defending, I don't buy it as Ireland looked bereft of attacking lines and made the defending easy for Wales.

The loss against Wales shook him and he realized just how much more effort he had to put into the expansive training for the Scotland match.

In my simplistic opinion, Schmidt got complacent and believed he would beat Wales with the same approach the team took against France and England, got found out by Gatland and was forced to change his approach for Scotland. No protection of gameplans for the RWC, just outthought.

He is a good coach and I do believe that he will not make the same mistake again though, well I hope anyways.

I'm not critical of the team. I'm critical of the coaching.

What I said when Ireland were nilled by NZ was
a) a lot of injuries to key personnel like POC
b) too much rugby - the players were exhausted (i.e., 2 tours to NZ within 6 months with no break in 11 months, unlike the ABs).

It seems to be forgotten that Ireland just lost by 2pts away to New Zealand (22-24) in that series as well which was fairly amazing since Paul O'Connell wasn't on the tour.

My opinion - the real difference in this team has not been Schmidt, but POC's return to full fitness.

Sin é wrote:I'm not critical of the team. I'm critical of the coaching.

What I said when Ireland were nilled by NZ was
a) a lot of injuries to key personnel like POC
b) too much rugby - the players were exhausted (i.e., 2 tours to NZ within 6 months with no break in 11 months, unlike the ABs).

It seems to be forgotten that Ireland just lost by 2pts away to New Zealand (22-24) in that series as well which was fairly amazing since Paul O'Connell wasn't on the tour.

My opinion - the real difference in this team has not been Schmidt, but POC's return to full fitness.

It's not forgotten,that was simply a typical return for that team.One decent performance surrounded by 5 or 6 mediocre ones..This new coaching ticket has established a level of consistency that is unrivalled in the history of Irish rugby.PoC is a huge influence on the team but he is also a far better player because of him.You can see it in his ball carrying and the way he leads the defensive line,these skills have come on to a level they were never at before and it's no coincidence that it happened just as he started working with Schmidt.

fa0019 wrote:The only weakness I see is perhaps a lack of tries... but otherwise they're as good as I've ever seen them. Got to be thinking anything bar a world cup final will not suffice.
Even Sexton is now not seen as irreplaceable. Bodes well for the tournament ahead.

Ireland are currently ranked third, so a semi-final is a realistic target. They have never got that far before so that would be seen as a perfectly good tournament finish.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
It's not forgotten,that was simply a typical return for that team.One decent performance surrounded by 5 or 6 mediocre ones..This new coaching ticket has established a level of consistency that is unrivalled in the history of Irish rugby.PoC is a huge influence on the team but he is also a far better player because of him.You can see it in his ball carrying and the way he leads the defensive line,these skills have come on to a level they were never at before and it's no coincidence that it happened just as he started working with Schmidt.

Pretty sure that Kidney prevailed over the best year in Irish rugby's history. There was a level of consistency that year as well...

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:I'm not critical of the team. I'm critical of the coaching.

What I said when Ireland were nilled by NZ was
a) a lot of injuries to key personnel like POC
b) too much rugby - the players were exhausted (i.e., 2 tours to NZ within 6 months with no break in 11 months, unlike the ABs).

It seems to be forgotten that Ireland just lost by 2pts away to New Zealand (22-24) in that series as well which was fairly amazing since Paul O'Connell wasn't on the tour.

My opinion - the real difference in this team has not been Schmidt, but POC's return to full fitness.

It's not forgotten,that was simply a typical return for that team.One decent performance surrounded by 5 or 6 mediocre ones..This new coaching ticket has established a level of consistency that is unrivalled in the history of Irish rugby.PoC is a huge influence on the team but he is also a far better player because of him.You can see it in his ball carrying and the way he leads the defensive line,these skills have come on to a level they were never at before and it's no coincidence that it happened just as he started working with Schmidt

You keep bringing up being nilled by NZ - you don't acknowledge that a Kidney coached team that were on their last legs after 11 months non-stop rugby got as close to beating NZ in NZ (without Paul O'Connell) as Schmidt did at home. For the nilled by NZ, they were the walking wounded and exhausted and completely burnt out.

POC was playing pretty well before he had anything to do with Schmidt. i.e., v. Quins and Clermont in the Heineken Cup and on the Lions until he broke his arm.

The big difference in POC is that he is not nursery his back problem anymore.

You can't throw the 60-0 at Kidney or any coach. They players have to take responsibility for that.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
It's not forgotten,that was simply a typical return for that team.One decent performance surrounded by 5 or 6 mediocre ones..This new coaching ticket has established a level of consistency that is unrivalled in the history of Irish rugby.PoC is a huge influence on the team but he is also a far better player because of him.You can see it in his ball carrying and the way he leads the defensive line,these skills have come on to a level they were never at before and it's no coincidence that it happened just as he started working with Schmidt.

Pretty sure that Kidney prevailed over the best year in Irish rugby's history. There was a level of consistency that year as well...

Yep and what happened next,lost to Scotland at home (PoC was playing that day Sin,what happened there?),nilled by NZ and a 3 match aggregate score that is too embarrassing to look up.Each year Kidney was in control saw the results get worse with the odd good performance mixed in.Schmidt hasn't had the luxury of an injury free 1st season either,the one year Kidneys Ireland did well was when he had a full deck to choose from every time.

profitius wrote:You can't throw the 60-0 at Kidney or any coach. They players have to take responsibility for that.

Does that work both ways,how about the Grand Slam do the players get full credit for that?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
It's not forgotten,that was simply a typical return for that team.One decent performance surrounded by 5 or 6 mediocre ones..This new coaching ticket has established a level of consistency that is unrivalled in the history of Irish rugby.PoC is a huge influence on the team but he is also a far better player because of him.You can see it in his ball carrying and the way he leads the defensive line,these skills have come on to a level they were never at before and it's no coincidence that it happened just as he started working with Schmidt.

Pretty sure that Kidney prevailed over the best year in Irish rugby's history. There was a level of consistency that year as well...

Yep and what happened next,lost to Scotland at home (PoC was playing that day Sin,what happened there?),nilled by NZ and a 3 match aggregate score that is too embarrassing to look up.Each year Kidney was in control saw the results get worse with the odd good performance mixed in.Schmidt hasn't had the luxury of an injury free 1st season either,the one year Kidneys Ireland did well was when he had a full deck to choose from every time.

Kidney had a horrible run of injuries to his team, the players were also exceedingly fatigued for playing so much rugby. Just on a side note, for all the bad you think Kidney did, just how many players got debut's under him? Schmidt took over a team that Kidney invested an awful amount of time developing. Ireland have a strength in depth now far greater than in previous years and a lot of that has to be credited to Kidney.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:
Kidney had a horrible run of injuries to his team, the players were also exceedingly fatigued for playing so much rugby. Just on a side note, for all the bad you think Kidney did, just how many players got debut's under him? Schmidt took over a team that Kidney invested an awful amount of time developing. Ireland have a strength in depth now far greater than in previous years and a lot of that has to be credited to Kidney.

He didn't have a horrible run of injuries for his full term,that only applies to his last 6N.The previous years of failure were achieved with what would be considered a normal run of injuries for an international team and still each year was worse than the last with the occasional big performance mixed in.

asoreleftshoulder,

I am not saying that Kidney was better than Schmidt or vice versa. I am saying that people often forget the good that Kidney did by gushing over Schmidt.

Take a comparative look at where they both are after the same time they had both been in charge, you may be surprised.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
It's not forgotten,that was simply a typical return for that team.One decent performance surrounded by 5 or 6 mediocre ones..This new coaching ticket has established a level of consistency that is unrivalled in the history of Irish rugby.PoC is a huge influence on the team but he is also a far better player because of him.You can see it in his ball carrying and the way he leads the defensive line,these skills have come on to a level they were never at before and it's no coincidence that it happened just as he started working with Schmidt.

Pretty sure that Kidney prevailed over the best year in Irish rugby's history. There was a level of consistency that year as well...

Yep and what happened next,lost to Scotland at home (PoC was playing that day Sin,what happened there?),nilled by NZ and a 3 match aggregate score that is too embarrassing to look up.Each year Kidney was in control saw the results get worse with the odd good performance mixed in.Schmidt hasn't had the luxury of an injury free 1st season either,the one year Kidneys Ireland did well was when he had a full deck to choose from every time.

POC was managing his back injury for starters back then. The defeat to Scotland was probably due to a lot of rookies being bedded in - i.e., Cian Healy couldn't scrummage back then (though John Hayes was blamed for that) and of course Sexton started that day. Even you must admit that its only since Sexton has gone to France has he learned how to control a game at international level.

Oh, and Dan Parks excellent boot.

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:asoreleftshoulder,

I am not saying that Kidney was better than Schmidt or vice versa. I am saying that people often forget the good that Kidney did by gushing over Schmidt.

Take a comparative look at where they both are after the same time they had both been in charge, you may be surprised.

I wouldn't be surprised,Kidney had a great 1st year by any standards but it all fell apart very quickly thereafter.That's the difference,Kidney had an almost unprecedented injury free run in his 1st year in charge but as soon as that changed he was lost,contrast that with how Schmidt managed the AI's.Look I am challenging Sin é's criticism,not because it doesn't have some validity but because it is the purest hypocrisy imaginable to say the players aren't good enough when the team is losing with a coach you support and then criticise the Schmidt when they are winning back to back championship.

I definitely feel there is more to this team and there are areas Schmidt can improve on,however I have faith that he will do this based on the evidence of how he has had both Leinster and Ireland playing in the past.You have to judge him on his overall body of work and so far it has been excellent while there is still room to improve.

Sin é wrote:

POC was managing his back injury for starters back then. The defeat to Scotland was probably due to a lot of rookies being bedded in - i.e., Cian Healy couldn't scrummage back then (though John Hayes was blamed for that) and of course Sexton started that day. Even you must admit that its only since Sexton has gone to France has he learned how to control a game at international level.

Oh, and Dan Parks excellent boot.

Ah okay so you think Ireland are utterly reliant on PoC,what do you think will happen when he retires.I'll take a wild guess that you will attribute our success to PoM or Murray when that happens.It's only since Schmidt took over that Sexton has looked impressive managing an international game as he now operates in a team that knows what it's doing.

Well at the end of the day Schmidt is now our most successful coach and will only add to that in the future,I pity you,most of us have been waiting our entire lives to see a really world class Ireland team come along and when it happens you can't even enjoy it.

I think POC is the real difference in this team. For instance, he was the only one who really came out fighting in the Wales game.

I'll wait and see how who I attribute the success to when POC retires - but he will be a major loss to this team. He was the one who picked them all up again after the Wales defeat (according to what players say anyway).

POM is the most likely candidate to provide leadership so far. Murray does his job very well, but he is a bit quiet/subdued (like the rest of the team).

As for Sexton, he was injured a lot as well - you may recall Paddy Jackson starting a few games in that time (though surely its up to the outhalf to direct the team).

Schmidt isn't our most successful coach - he has yet to win a grand slam.

Sin é wrote:I think POC is the real difference in this team. For instance, he was the only one who really came out fighting in the Wales game.

I'll wait and see how who I attribute the success to when POC retires - but he will be a major loss to this team. He was the one who picked them all up again after the Wales defeat (according to what players say anyway).

POM is the most likely candidate to provide leadership so far. Murray does his job very well, but he is a bit quiet/subdued (like the rest of the team).

As for Sexton, he was injured a lot as well - you may recall Paddy Jackson starting a few games in that time (though surely its up to the outhalf to direct the team).

Schmidt isn't our most successful coach - he has yet to win a grand slam.

2 medals is better than 1.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Sin é wrote:I think POC is the real difference in this team. For instance, he was the only one who really came out fighting in the Wales game.

I'll wait and see how who I attribute the success to when POC retires - but he will be a major loss to this team. He was the one who picked them all up again after the Wales defeat (according to what players say anyway).

POM is the most likely candidate to provide leadership so far. Murray does his job very well, but he is a bit quiet/subdued (like the rest of the team).

As for Sexton, he was injured a lot as well - you may recall Paddy Jackson starting a few games in that time (though surely its up to the outhalf to direct the team).

Schmidt isn't our most successful coach - he has yet to win a grand slam.

2 medals is better than 1.

Kidney has more than 1 tournament

He won the Churchill Cup as well (with Sexton at outhalf). I think Fergus McFadden was Player of the Tournament.

How many Triple Crowns did Kidney win?

Compared to Schmidt.

Lol Eddie O'Sullivan was our most successful coach by that metric.

EOS was a great coach, I really liked him. Thought he presided over Irelands most exciting playmaking.

Yep I agree,he did a lot with a limited group of players,it's a pity how it ended it seems to have left his term looking like a failure when in truth he had us consistently playing at a pretty high level (probably as high as it was possible to have with that group of players).

Both Kidney and Schmidt both had great 1st years. A grand slam and 6N title.

Both oversaw record winning runs.
Kidney: Arg (Home), Fra (Home), Ita (Away), Eng (H), Sco (A), Wal (A), Canada (A), USA (A), Aus (H- draw), Fiji (H), South Africa (H), Italy (H)

Schmidt: Ita (H), Fra (A), Arg (A)x2, South Africa (H), Georgia (H), Australia (H), Italy (A), France (H), England (H).

I would say Schmidt's run in was a bit tougher with Kidney having 5 gimmes, compared 3 for Joe, but a not big deal. Both great moments in Irish Rugby.

However the records shift when you compare after the 1st season. Kidney's 2nd season was a let down, but still a decent season it has to be said. Good Autumn with a win over SA, but finishing the 6N with 3 wins and a home loss to Scotland, which means we missed out on a triple crown was lower than what was expected.

Joe won a 2nd 6nations title (4 wins) and had 2 wins over Tri-Nations opposition in the Autumn. A better return.

From that, I think Joe is already the more successful coach. If he gets us to a SF or better in the World Cup then there is absolutely no doubt.

It's true people tend to look back on bad years Deccie presided over, but this is because we got worse each year he was in charge. If you take out 2009, Kidney's reign wasn't great. 2012 and 2013 were shocking seasons.

Btw, The Churchill Cup counts for diddly squat, it was with the wolfhounds. Even the tho the win over England was a great one.

I would say a Triple Crown win is akin to a Championship, as a Championship is akin to a Grand Slam.

The Slam is the ultimate - Schmidt hasn't won it yet (because he is too conservative). He made exactly the same mistake this year v Wales as he did against England last year.

Saying the Churchill Cup is diddly squat, is equivalent to saying that the Heineken Cup is also diddly squat in this equation.

It pretty much is to be honest. Winning a few Heineken Cups will get you into the reckoning for international jobs but if you don't deliver once your foot is in the door you'll find out just how little it actually means. Cotter didn't actually win any Heineken Cups, but watch how quickly the heat is turned up on him if Scotland don't improve in the next year... the sheen of any reputation accrued at club level comes off very quickly when the results aren't going your way.

Churchill Cup is even less worthwhile. Can't believe anyone is even talking about it. It's a development competition!

Notch wrote:It pretty much is to be honest. Winning a few Heineken Cups will get you into the reckoning for international jobs but if you don't deliver once your foot is in the door you'll find out just how little it actually means. Cotter didn't actually win any Heineken Cups, but watch how quickly the heat is turned up on him if Scotland don't improve in the next year...

Churchill Cup is even less worthwhile. Can't believe anyone is even talking about it. It's a development competition!

A defunct one.

I would take 2 back to back championships over 1 grand slam followed up by a season of 3 wins and 2 defeats.

Notch wrote:It pretty much is to be honest. Winning a few Heineken Cups will get you into the reckoning for international jobs but if you don't deliver once your foot is in the door you'll find out just how little it actually means. Cotter didn't actually win any Heineken Cups, but watch how quickly the heat is turned up on him if Scotland don't improve in the next year... the sheen of any reputation accrued at club level comes off very quickly when the results aren't going your way.

Churchill Cup is even less worthwhile. Can't believe anyone is even talking about it. It's a development competition!

Its interesting that the two teams who have done best in recent years (Ireland and Wales) have & had coaches (Gatland, Schmidt & Kidney) who have won the Heineken Cup. A few seasons coaching Heineken Cup might have helped Lancaster to close out the deal for England a bit sooner. Heineken Cup is excellent preparation for coaching staff & players to play Cup Rugby.

It doesn't matter what your experience is or what you have won, the sheen goes off if you lose (unless you are joe Schmidt)!

The reason why we are talking about the Churchill Cup is because Kidney coached Ireland to win it (which is something we hadn't done before). Its a 'medal' no matter what way you look at it.

Schmidt has done a few things Kidney never did; win in Paris, and get back to back wins over France. Of course France are not as strong now as when Kidney first got the job, although England are better. It's all academic really. In his first year, Schmidt did win the harder championship to win. This year was good too, but it's always easier to win the championship when France and England are coming to Dublin.

It's a sign of our improvement that we can win a championship and gripe at all! I still find that incredible. These are the times you have to enjoy. Schmidt will leave at some point in the future, either because he's successful and gets another offer or he's unsuccessful and he's replaced. The wheel will turn. We will have bad seasons, we will lose more games. We've all seen much, much worse Ireland teams than this one.

I'm not unsympathetic to criticisms, because even if you do win all your games there is always room for further improvement, but at the same time I'm just savouring the success we've had.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:It pretty much is to be honest. Winning a few Heineken Cups will get you into the reckoning for international jobs but if you don't deliver once your foot is in the door you'll find out just how little it actually means. Cotter didn't actually win any Heineken Cups, but watch how quickly the heat is turned up on him if Scotland don't improve in the next year... the sheen of any reputation accrued at club level comes off very quickly when the results aren't going your way.

Churchill Cup is even less worthwhile. Can't believe anyone is even talking about it. It's a development competition!

Its interesting that the two teams who have done best in recent years (Ireland and Wales) have & had coaches (Gatland, Schmidt & Kidney) who have won the Heineken Cup. A few seasons coaching Heineken Cup might have helped Lancaster to close out the deal for England a bit sooner. Heineken Cup is excellent preparation for coaching staff & players to play Cup Rugby.

It doesn't matter what your experience is or what you have won, the sheen goes off if you lose (unless you are joe Schmidt)!

The reason why we are talking about the Churchill Cup is because Kidney coached Ireland to win it (which is something we hadn't done before). Its a 'medal' no matter what way you look at it.

Yes, it's that kind of high-end coaching experience that Stuart Lancaster had to prepare him! It's a medal. It's just not a very important or meaningful one.

Sin é wrote:

The Slam is the ultimate - Schmidt hasn't won it yet (because he is too conservative). He made exactly the same mistake this year v Wales as he did against England last year.

We won the slam because of Drico and ROG forced it. If you're indirectly suggesting we won the slam because of Kidney's ingenuity you're a madman.  The simple fact is, Ireland are a lot better under Schmidt than they have been under any coach over the last 15 years. We have never been ranked 3rd for this long.

To say Schmidt made a mistake in The Millenium is fair enough. However I doubt you genuinely believe it was the same mistake that he made in Twickenham. Firstly I wouldn't begrudge anyone losing in Twickenham to a good England team who didn't bottle it. Secondly we played brilliantly that day, England never really broke us down, but instead scored when we disrupted their ball and Brown created  something when we tried to pounce on England, having forced a loose pass. Irelands try in that game was also 100% Schmidt - similar to Leinster's try v clermont in the Heineken semi. After half time he identified a consistent gap and the team were able to exploit it. We lost because England played well, not because of conservatism.

Conservatism producing a win in the six nations before the World Cup is a dream scenario I would suggest. We gave away nothing, and in the long camps before the tournament the team can add some panache to the incredibly solid foundations Schmidt, Easterby, Feek and Plumtree  have helped create.

If you want to talk about consistent mistakes , Kidney finished with a 53% winning record. He must have made a fair few!

Notch wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:It pretty much is to be honest. Winning a few Heineken Cups will get you into the reckoning for international jobs but if you don't deliver once your foot is in the door you'll find out just how little it actually means. Cotter didn't actually win any Heineken Cups, but watch how quickly the heat is turned up on him if Scotland don't improve in the next year... the sheen of any reputation accrued at club level comes off very quickly when the results aren't going your way.

Churchill Cup is even less worthwhile. Can't believe anyone is even talking about it. It's a development competition!

Its interesting that the two teams who have done best in recent years (Ireland and Wales) have & had coaches (Gatland, Schmidt & Kidney) who have won the Heineken Cup. A few seasons coaching Heineken Cup might have helped Lancaster to close out the deal for England a bit sooner. Heineken Cup is excellent preparation for coaching staff & players to play Cup Rugby.

It doesn't matter what your experience is or what you have won, the sheen goes off if you lose (unless you are joe Schmidt)!

The reason why we are talking about the Churchill Cup is because Kidney coached Ireland to win it (which is something we hadn't done before). Its a 'medal' no matter what way you look at it.

Yes, it's that kind of high-end coaching experience that Stuart Lancaster had to prepare him! It's a medal. It's just not a very important or meaningful one.

Its a medal which Kidney won coaching Ireland (which included a lot of players that Schmidt is now fairly reliant on). I think Kidney might have a Championship as well from coaching Ireland A back in the day when he was EOS's Assistant. Of course he also won an U19 World Cup - close to being BOD's only trophy at one stage in his career except Kidney coached Ireland to a Grand Slam.

Oh, and I think Kidney was IRB International Coach of the Year in 2009. He is up there with all the great coaches like Henry & Hansen, woodward & White.

Sin é wrote:
Oh, and I think Kidney was IRB International Coach of the Year in 2009. He is up there with all the great coaches like Henry & Hansen, woodward & White.

 He simply isn't. He won 27, lost 22 during his tenure. He had 1 good season with Ireland, and failed to deliver in every other

Edit : I don't know why I took the bait there. Well played sin.

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The Slam is the ultimate - Schmidt hasn't won it yet (because he is too conservative). He made exactly the same mistake this year v Wales as he did against England last year.

We won the slam because of Drico and ROG forced it. If you're indirectly suggesting we won the slam because of Kidney's ingenuity you're a madman.  The simple fact is, Ireland are a lot better under Schmidt than they have been under any coach over the last 15 years. We have never been ranked 3rd for this long.

To say Schmidt made a mistake in The Millenium is fair enough. However I doubt you genuinely believe it was the same mistake that he made in Twickenham. Firstly I wouldn't begrudge anyone losing in Twickenham to a good England team who didn't bottle it. Secondly we played brilliantly that day, England never really broke us down, but instead scored when we disrupted their ball and Brown created  something when we tried to pounce on England, having forced a loose pass. Irelands try in that game was also 100% Schmidt - similar to Leinster's try v clermont in the Heineken semi. After half time he identified a consistent gap and the team were able to exploit it. We lost because England played well, not because of conservatism.

Conservatism producing a win in the six nations before the World Cup is a dream scenario I would suggest. We gave away nothing, and in the long camps before the tournament the team can add some panache to the incredibly solid foundations Schmidt, Easterby, Feek and Plumtree  have helped create.

If you want to talk about consistent mistakes , Kidney finished with a 53% winning record. He must have made a fair few!

Schmidt's international career isn't finished yet to compare him to anyone else. He seems to have a knack of moving on before the Poopie hits the fan and a bit of rebuilding has to be done.

He needed a game breaker against England and he didn't have one. Dave Kearney was run down by a lock. Enough said.