AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation!

First topic message reminder :

It's from The Times so only a snap shot:

Exclusive: Clubs block salary-cap investigation

Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches

John Westerby, Owen Slot Chief Rugby Correspondent

Leading clubs in England have voted in favour of suspending investigations into potential salary-cap breaches to protect the image of the Aviva Premiership.
At a time when Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches, The Times understands that a majority of clubs have voted for inquiries to be suspended, in part for fear of alienating sponsors and fans, and jeopardising their position in negotiations with the RFU over a new relationship governing the release of England players.

I can not see how this can mean anything other then Saracens were found to be in breach of the cap, and the clubs have decided to act amongst themselves and cover it up rather then it go further.

Is this good for the game in England?

Poorfour wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
It's just that that's a rather elementary understanding of the term monolithic entity, Poorfour.  A cute'n'cuddly version of the democratic people power of PRL and a slimy'n'corruptible version of a Union.  

Actually, you've completely missed my point. I wasn't arguing some pollyanna-ish "democracy good, something else unspecified bad". I was making the point that the way posters on the boards talk about the PRL suggests that they have a very poor understanding of what these organisations are and how they work. I'm including you in that.

Of course you include me in that. I disagree with your understanding of both Union and a grouping like PRL. So you say I misunderstand. I don't misunderstand anything. I disagree with your opinion on the distinctions - and will continue to do so.

No doubt there would be storm once the truth came out, beshocked, but suspending the investigation has only served to make things worse for AP. Not better. If the investigation had have been allowed to continue, and concluded quickly, then at the very least there would have been a sense of ending of this debacle, and a moving forward for AP.

I watched an interview with Wray a few weeks back. I have no doubt that he broke the salary cap, even if not directly. Wray doesn't want the truth to come out and so he threatens legal action against the salary cap. In so doing he is basically threatening all those within AP who are against it. I don't know what truth there is in the 2 clubs in question threatening to block the ring-fencing of the AP, but if it is true then it makes sense of why those weaker clubs would vote in favour of a suspension.

Munchkin you have no evidence that Wray has broken the salary cap.

The truth you say - what is that exactly? No one knows - not you, not the media, neither do I.

You say he threatens legal action against the salary cap - where's the proof of that?

I suppose you believe everything that is in the newspapers?

beshocked wrote:Munchkin you have no evidence that Wray has broken the salary cap.

The truth you say - what is that exactly? No one knows - not you, not the media, neither do I.

You say he threatens legal action against the salary cap - where's the proof of that?

He said it himself, beshocked. I watched the interview, and he was very clear about willing to take the issue of a salary cap to court if needs me. The horses mouth and all that.

None of us have Wray accounts in front of us, beshocked, so asking for proof is a bit silly. The thing is that all the indicators are pointing directly at that proof. Especially the reaction of Wray himself.

Beshocked - absolutely, innocent until proven guilty. However it needs to be dealt with in year so if any penalties are due the correct teams end up in Europe next year. Can't be swept under the carpet until after the RWC.

The media are being sighted as stirring it all up - strikes me that we can't have it both ways.....media were heavily courted (by both sides) in the war that ensued over the new European format, with leaks left right and centre as they tried to empire build / improve negotiation position etc. Now there is a new tempting titbit we can't expect the media not to stir it up. You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

beshocked wrote:Munchkin you have no evidence that Wray has broken the salary cap.

The truth you say - what is that exactly? No one knows - not you, not the media, neither do I.

You say he threatens legal action against the salary cap - where's the proof of that?

I suppose you believe everything that is in the newspapers?

Though I usually disagree with you beshocked, you are a proud supporter of your team, and I have always respected that.... SO i am really surprised you are being so defensive of Sarries, when I think even most sarries fans believe there is something amiss with their spending. If they did break the salary cap, would you not be disgusted by your team? I would, same way when Lam said the things he said about reffing the way he did, I was ashamed of COnnacht. I am ashamed because I love my team, and I want them to represent their best possible selves, not a version of, 'see what we can get away with"....

Totalflanker wrote:Beshocked - absolutely, innocent until proven guilty. However it needs to be dealt with in year so if any penalties are due the correct teams end up in Europe next year. Can't be swept under the carpet until after the RWC.

The media are being sighted as stirring it all up - strikes me that we can't have it both ways.....media were heavily courted (by both sides) in the war that ensued over the new European format, with leaks left right and centre as they tried to empire build / improve negotiation position etc. Now there is a new tempting titbit we can't expect the media not to stir it up. You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

Post of the Month for me. Says everything that is required.... most especially the bit about the right teams should be the correct teams going through to Europe. This might be their 'best chance' year. Why should they be expected to wait until next year to benefit from any 'points deductions' that might arrive for certain sides? Maybe next year they'll be off the boil themselves. Next year might be too late to make that step up.

But of course some teams voted for the delay, so all is well.

I do suspect that Sarries (and Bath) have broken the cap (note suspect, rather than know), and this news story does give the whiff of a whitewash.

You'd think HR/payroll would make any "investigation" rather straight forward. It should take roughly 30 minutes!! I know my business could tell you pretty quickly what its payroll costs are, on an aggregate and individual basis. What else do you need to know?

funnyExiledScot wrote:I do suspect that Sarries (and Bath) have broken the cap (note suspect, rather than know), and this news story does give the whiff of a whitewash.

You'd think HR/payroll would make any "investigation" rather straight forward. It should take roughly 30 minutes!! I know my business could tell you pretty quickly what its payroll costs are, on an aggregate and individual basis. What else do you need to know?

I think it's perhaps (allegedly) a money trail that has gone James Bond, Exiled That is to say, it's probably in a few lovely exotic locations and tied up in dealings that might require the PRL to do some diplomacy as much as snooping.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I do suspect that Sarries (and Bath) have broken the cap (note suspect, rather than know), and this news story does give the whiff of a whitewash.

You'd think HR/payroll would make any "investigation" rather straight forward. It should take roughly 30 minutes!! I know my business could tell you pretty quickly what its payroll costs are, on an aggregate and individual basis. What else do you need to know?

Bath for me are the most obvious offenders. Rhys Priestland is going to be on a reportedly 300k a season, Sam Burgess is reportedly on 500k a season and they still have not slowed down, they are signing Matawalu, John Evans, there are roumors surrounding Faletua, and all the England internationals they have, so never mind Sarries, Bath should be the ones we are all talking about.

You can nip this in the bud rather easily. Any player receiving remuneration for services rendered to the club must be paid by the club, and through the club's accounts. Each club has a cap on what it can pay its players.

Any breach of the above = automatic relegation.

Any player receiving money/remuneration other than from the club and on official club payslips = 6 month ban.

The authorities need to be draconian here, because there is too much at stake. You cannot introduce a salary cap and not enforce it.

As beshocked says there's no one guilty as yet, saying well they obviously are breaking the cap yadda yadda is bordering on wumming. The problem with the situation is it fans these flames.

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I do suspect that Sarries (and Bath) have broken the cap (note suspect, rather than know), and this news story does give the whiff of a whitewash.

You'd think HR/payroll would make any "investigation" rather straight forward. It should take roughly 30 minutes!! I know my business could tell you pretty quickly what its payroll costs are, on an aggregate and individual basis. What else do you need to know?

Bath for me are the most obvious offenders. Rhys Priestland is going to be on a reportedly 300k a season, Sam Burgess is reportedly on 500k a season and they still have not slowed down, they are signing Matawalu, John Evans, there are roumors surrounding Faletua, and all the England internationals they have, so never mind Sarries, Bath should be the ones we are all talking about.

This just highlights why the English salary cap needs to vastly increase or be done away with.

Ulster have Piatau on £520k. Ruan Piennar rejected £530k with Toulon, so gawd knows what he's on. Plus all their internationals on big bucks. If they are allowed to spend that much on a squad, why can't Bath?

No 7&1/2 wrote:As beshocked says there's no one guilty as yet, saying well they obviously are breaking the cap yadda yadda is bordering on wumming. The problem with the situation is it fans these flames.

You don't need either 'Guilt' or 'Proof' to say that an investigation was halted, 7&1/2.  An investigation was 'blocked' until......................; well nobody seems to know when.

You can therefore work on the premise that had there been an investigation, then there might have been a determination.  And that determination might have led to points deductions.  And those deductions might have led to certain teams getting into a top Six position that perhaps won't do so this year.

'Guilt' and 'Proof' are irrelevant really.  An Investigation was stopped/blocked/stalled.  That is fact.  And such a fact has potential consequences for League position this season.

I'm not debating the pros and cons of the cap. Simply that if you are going to have one you must enforce it with an iron fist, and make breaching it financially punitive in the extreme.

My personal view is that I think England should stick with it, as well as the rule that only players playing for English clubs get to play for England. Let the rest do what works for them.

LondonTiger wrote:If resumed, any club found guilty will have the points deductions next season.

But is that entirely fair if it costs say Wasps a place in the playoffs?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I do suspect that Sarries (and Bath) have broken the cap (note suspect, rather than know), and this news story does give the whiff of a whitewash.

You'd think HR/payroll would make any "investigation" rather straight forward. It should take roughly 30 minutes!! I know my business could tell you pretty quickly what its payroll costs are, on an aggregate and individual basis. What else do you need to know?

Bath for me are the most obvious offenders. Rhys Priestland is going to be on a reportedly 300k a season, Sam Burgess is reportedly on 500k a season and they still have not slowed down, they are signing Matawalu, John Evans, there are roumors surrounding Faletua, and all the England internationals they have, so never mind Sarries, Bath should be the ones we are all talking about.

This just highlights why the English salary cap needs to vastly increase or be done away with.

Ulster have Piatau on £520k. Ruan Piennar rejected £530k with Toulon, so gawd knows what he's on. Plus all their internationals on big bucks. If they are allowed to spend that much on a squad, why can't Bath?

Don't think either is true, Chunky.

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:As beshocked says there's no one guilty as yet, saying well they obviously are breaking the cap yadda yadda is bordering on wumming. The problem with the situation is it fans these flames.

You don't need either 'Guilt' or 'Proof' to say that an investigation was halted, 7&1/2.  An investigation was 'blocked' until......................; well nobody seems to know when.

You can therefore work on the premise that had there been an investigation, then there might have been a determination.  And that determination might have led to points deductions.  And those deductions might have led to certain teams getting into a top Six position that perhaps won't do so this year.

'Guilt' and 'Proof' are irrelevant really.  An Investigation was stopped/blocked/stalled.  That is fact.  And such a fact has potential consequences for League position this season.  

Completely agree with all that. Issue is people saying well it's obvious Bath are breaking it, Saracens are breaking it etc. Well no it isn't that's the point of the investigation and that's why it's disappointing its stalled.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I do suspect that Sarries (and Bath) have broken the cap (note suspect, rather than know), and this news story does give the whiff of a whitewash.

You'd think HR/payroll would make any "investigation" rather straight forward. It should take roughly 30 minutes!! I know my business could tell you pretty quickly what its payroll costs are, on an aggregate and individual basis. What else do you need to know?

Bath for me are the most obvious offenders. Rhys Priestland is going to be on a reportedly 300k a season, Sam Burgess is reportedly on 500k a season and they still have not slowed down, they are signing Matawalu, John Evans, there are roumors surrounding Faletua, and all the England internationals they have, so never mind Sarries, Bath should be the ones we are all talking about.

This just highlights why the English salary cap needs to vastly increase or be done away with.

Ulster have Piatau on £520k. Ruan Piennar rejected £530k with Toulon, so gawd knows what he's on. Plus all their internationals on big bucks. If they are allowed to spend that much on a squad, why can't Bath?

Don't think either is true, Chunky.

Irish Independent reported both figures not me.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/guinness-pro12/all-blacks-star-charles-piutau-i-cant-wait-to-get-stuck-in-with-ulster-31109861.html

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ruan-pienaar-turns-down-toulon-to-pen-new-threeyear-contract-with-ulster-29645453.html

The whole thing stinks I have to say. To repeat Nigel Wray's comment: "we look at every single method of stretching the boundaries. Our [legal] advice is that we have not broken the salary cap.”

Now contrast that with Baths (or most other clubs) MD; "We are under the cap and we're going to be under the cap next year.

The first comment might as well say 'my lawyer is bigger than yours'.

If they've taken legal advice it seems they must be doing something that at the very least breaks the spirit/intent of the cap ...

Beshocked stop being a Ostrich.

A bit of Leicester humour there .

Munchkin no you don't have Wray's accounts in front of you but you're happy to believe everything that the media says! The job of the media is to cause a stir and seems like it's done just that on here!

Wolfball I know my club better than any of here. They are far from perfect. They don't treat their fans as well as they should. At least one of the players has a footballer's mentality (believing he's gods gift to the world).There are of course aspects of the club that could be better.

I am being defensive of Saracens because they are being branded as guilty of breaking the salary cap before the verdict has been read out. Might well be found guilty but none of us know yet even if you suspect they are guilty there is no proof in the public domain as of yet.

If found guilty of course I will be disappointed in them. Won't be the first time they've let me down though.


secretfly how do we know an investigation was blocked? You say it is fact. Where is the fact? Is there an official statement from the Premiership rugby?

Totalflanker well actually I think the media was doing a lot of Poopie stirring during the ERCC discussions. Just like then there were many rumours but not much fact.

So much talking yet the end result was very close to what I and many others wanted in the first place

Could talk about this salary cap rubbish till the cows come home - could speculate about bans etc but I think I will wait for an official verdict from the PRL or the RFU.

Not the media who don't have all the info in front of them.

Oh God beshocked...how the f**K do I know the sun rose this morning even though I was fast asleep!!!???



How do I know another car will pass my window in less than a minute even though it hasn't passed yet?

You can play this game all day but Reason enters into the equation sometime.

I say for argument's sake that Saracens are Guilty of going over the Cap.

Now how do you know that's not a fact?

Nevermind about 'No Proof'. How do you, sitting where you are at this moment in time, know that's not a fact?

Secretfly

Sounds like a politician's answer! Instead of showing evidence that there was an investigation you have dodged the question!

It's not rocket science - all you need is a press release or spokesperson from the PRL saying that investigations have been suspended.

For you to confidently say Saracens are guilty you need proof.

To be convicted of a crime/punished for breaking a rule/law you need evidence.

As of now we have nothing in the public domain to show that Saracens have broken the salary cap. Maybe they have but as of now that's just pure speculation.

You might well be right but then again you might be wrong - wouldn't be the first time you are wrong.

It's not a fact because it has not yet been proved that it's true. A guilty verdict would make it a fact.

Don't forget there's also lawyers......

Personally I am going to wait for the verdict because speculation is just that speculation.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I do suspect that Sarries (and Bath) have broken the cap (note suspect, rather than know), and this news story does give the whiff of a whitewash.

You'd think HR/payroll would make any "investigation" rather straight forward. It should take roughly 30 minutes!! I know my business could tell you pretty quickly what its payroll costs are, on an aggregate and individual basis. What else do you need to know?

Bath for me are the most obvious offenders. Rhys Priestland is going to be on a reportedly 300k a season, Sam Burgess is reportedly on 500k a season and they still have not slowed down, they are signing Matawalu, John Evans, there are roumors surrounding Faletua, and all the England internationals they have, so never mind Sarries, Bath should be the ones we are all talking about.

This just highlights why the English salary cap needs to vastly increase or be done away with.

Ulster have Piatau on £520k. Ruan Piennar rejected £530k with Toulon, so gawd knows what he's on. Plus all their internationals on big bucks. If they are allowed to spend that much on a squad, why can't Bath?

Don't think either is true, Chunky.

Irish Independent reported both figures not me.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/guinness-pro12/all-blacks-star-charles-piutau-i-cant-wait-to-get-stuck-in-with-ulster-31109861.html

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/ruan-pienaar-turns-down-toulon-to-pen-new-threeyear-contract-with-ulster-29645453.html

I've read the reports, Chunky.

Pienaar was interviewed by BBCNI after those reports came out, and asked if the reported money that was offered were true? He denied that they were. In fact he laughed at the figures being reported. I'm sure he was offered a tidy sum. Just not the amount reported. Rather than chase after the big money in France he decided his future, and that of his family, was better served in Ulster.

For Piutau the first reports were of £500k. I have read elsewhere of a £350k figure. The £350k figure makes sense as it's closer to the present day market value. Having said that; it's the present day market value for a player and not the potential market value of that same player 18 months from a contract being signed. So it's possible that Ulster Rugby have speculated Piutau's market value in the summer of 2016 and priced accordingly.

It wouldn't bother me if both those claims had have been true, Chunky, or if the Piutau figure of £500k is in fact correct. Whatever the cost of Piutau it's great to see Ulster make such a positive statement of intent.

So long as they back it up with a quality backrow signing....

beshocked wrote:Secretfly

Sounds like a politician's answer! Instead of showing evidence that there was an investigation you have dodged the question!

You're dodging a dodge if so, Shocked.  Are you going into coalition with me or not!???  Be straight about it.  The electorate don't like this 'maybe it is, maybe it isn't' guff.

AP sides being investigated.  Investigation stalled, blocked or cancelled.  Further news in the next few years - OR - until enough people have forgotten about it even as they trip over the same bit of carpet year in and year out.

Secretfly I am not dodging anything. I am just saying it as it is - you and the media are speculating.

Coalition about what?

If the media says it then it must be true! In your opinion anyhow!

I want facts, not speculation. Speculation can only get you so far.

beshocked-"Munchkin no you don't have Wray's accounts in front of you but you're happy to believe everything that the media says! The job of the media is to cause a stir and seems like it's done just that on here!"

You really don't know me very well if you believe I'm happy to believe everything the media says.

I did tell you that I watched the Wray interview. It was watching this that convinced me that Sarries were cheating the salary cap >even if not directly<

Wray has cheated the cap. I don't doubt it and I don't need his accounts to prove it.

Hopefully the truth will come out in spite of Wray's attempts to bury it.

Well, Shocked, where the hell is the PRL saying all the talk these last few days in Media circles is all a load of f**king Rubbish?  Nobody is, was or ever will be Investigated....period.

????  

The PRL aren't short of talk when they feel they need to talk.  Why wouldn't they knock the current speculation on its butt?  I'm sure they'd love putting the Media (and me ) in our places.

Welly wrote: Beshocked stop being a Ostrich.

A bit of Leicester humour there .

A great rant, and even better it prompted the BBC to run a feature on all the great football manager rants of days gone by. Some crackers in there, with the great Cloughie being right up there with the best.

Munchkin You say that Wray is trying to bury the truth yet he's happy to do interviews? He's probably the most open chairman in the AP - in terms of giving his thoughts on many topics. You might not like what he has to say but says what he thinks. It's not as if Wray hides away from the media - he could easily do that. He even answers the questions! You might not agree with the answers but at least he does that!

SecretflyI don't work for the PRL. I don't know the details about any "investigation" if there is one. Sure they haven't said the media are wrong but then again they haven't confirmed that the media are correct.

Wray wants the Cap gone, shocked.  He wants total freedom to choose what to pay players.  His prerogative to be sure.  

I'd even go so far as to say this is all just part of his constant game of increasing pressure.  Indeed, I recall me saying it would happen straight after the European section was finalised.  Then on to next goal for the bigger boys of PRL - ending of Caps.  So apply pressure.

I don't think he cares about being accused.  He doesn't care about being within the rules either.  He's challenging the others to deduct points from his side.  He'll be there to publically make a mockery of the AP punishing a side for daring to try to compete with the French.  It's all publicity to keep the words 'salary' and 'cap' in the same sentences.  No publicity is bad publicity.

PS...I wouldn't even be surprised if it's friends of his doing the 'leaking'.

Secretfly the first sentence is correct. Wray has said so himself.

The rest is just your opinion. You say you don't think he cares about being accused.

You said in your last post that PRL's silence means that what the media says is true.

Nigel Wray in contrast has not been silent. He has said that Saracens are not breaking the salary cap. He hasn't ignored the question or dodged it.

You don't might not believe him but that's what he said.

Wray has cared enough to answer the accusation.

Saracens themselves have dismissed claims they are being investigated.


Wray told Standard Sport: “I am happy to make it very clear we do not breach the wage cap — full stop. That is the legal advice we have received and we are not under investigation.

“We appear to have been selected from a number of clubs and just have to put up with it.

“The June meeting will discuss key items including the wage cap and that is not to say we agree with the situation in its current form. It does not allow us to compete on a level playing field with teams in Europe and penalises clubs who produce English-qualified players who are then away for six months. Clubs are not adequately compensated in the cap.”

beshocked wrote:Munchkin You say that Wray is trying to bury the truth yet he's happy to do interviews? He's probably the most open chairman in the AP - in terms of giving his thoughts on many topics. You might not like what he has to say but says what he thinks. It's not as if Wray hides away from the media - he could easily do that. He even answers the questions! You might not agree with the answers but at least he does that!

SecretflyI don't work for the PRL. I don't know the details about any "investigation" if there is one. Sure they haven't said the media are wrong but then again they haven't confirmed that the media are correct.

If the recent allegations are true that some top AP clubs did in fact threaten to block both the expansion of the AP and the ring-fencing, and if Sarries are one of those top clubs, then Wray will have been proven to be anything but a most open chairman. Was it Wray that wanted the investigation stopped? If so then how can he be most open?

Anyway, we're going to go around in circles here. You're never going to agree with me So think I will stop there....for now.

I've not read all of this thread, as I deliberately wanted to stay out of it due to the fact that I know some of the facts rather than speculation as I had a long conversation last week with a member of the PRL. Sadly curiosity got the better of me and I've read the last few posts, and against my better judgement am going to comment.

The article in The Times has the general gist right, but some of the facts are incorrect. There has been an investigation, and one club has been found to be over the cap, and another has some 'financial irregularities' which require further investigation. You don't need to be a genius to work out which two clubs they are. Sadly, money talks, and I from what I have been told, they will get away with out 'for the good of the game'. Utter Love sacks, and the owners of those two clubs are an absolute disgrace.

Munchkin that's an allegation but where is the proof?

You say some top AP clubs - why is it only Saracens who get attacked? Oh right it's because they are the one accused of everything with no proof (none of the clubs are particularly open in their opinions but Wray at least does give his opinion on a variety of topics).

Even if Saracens is one of the clubs they are not working alone yet it seems like other clubs hide behind them like a protective shield. Saracens take the flack whilst the other clubs stay anonymous.


No I am not going to agree with you because you attack people with no circumstancial evidence.

beshocked wrote:


Wray told Standard Sport: “I am happy to make it very clear we do not breach the wage cap — full stop. That is the legal advice we have received and we are not under investigation.

“We appear to have been selected from a number of clubs and just have to put up with it.

“The June meeting will discuss key items including the wage cap and that is not to say we agree with the situation in its current form. It does not allow us to compete on a level playing field with teams in Europe and penalises clubs who produce English-qualified players who are then away for six months. Clubs are not adequately compensated in the cap.”

I put it to you that his intention is to make a mockery of the Cap.  Perhaps by the letter of the law he knows he will be seen to have worked within the specific rules.  But I feel he knows the investigators will come across other creative methods used to supplement the payment of certain of his players.  So I repeat, he wants to be seen to be toying with the rules to show how comical the idea of a salary cap is in the first place.  

We'll see what transpires.  But now we might have to wait a year... or three.  But we're all allowed speculate in advance.  Just as we're allowed predict a score, we're all allowed speculate.

beshocked wrote:

Even if Saracens is one of the clubs they are not working alone yet it seems like other clubs hide behind them like a protective shield. Saracens take the flack whilst the other clubs stay anonymous.

Agree.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I've not read all of this thread, as I deliberately wanted to stay out of it due to the fact that I know some of the facts rather than speculation as I had a long conversation last week with a member of the PRL.  Sadly curiosity got the better of me and I've read the last few posts, and against my better judgement am going to comment.

The article in The Times has the general gist right, but some of the facts are incorrect.  There has been an investigation, and one club has been found to be over the cap, and another has some 'financial irregularities' which require further investigation.  You don't need to be a genius to work out which two clubs they are.  Sadly, money talks, and I from what I have been told, they will get away with out 'for the good of the game'.  Utter Love sacks, and the owners of those two clubs are an absolute disgrace.

Ozzy3213 at least you have some "facts" that Secretfly quite clearly lacks. Doesn't surprise me to be honest though.

Better judgement? I think it's great that you've added your opinion to the mix. The biggest problem as I said is that's it RWC year in England. Difficult to drag two of the clubs under hot coals at this time.

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:


Wray told Standard Sport: “I am happy to make it very clear we do not breach the wage cap — full stop. That is the legal advice we have received and we are not under investigation.

“We appear to have been selected from a number of clubs and just have to put up with it.

“The June meeting will discuss key items including the wage cap and that is not to say we agree with the situation in its current form. It does not allow us to compete on a level playing field with teams in Europe and penalises clubs who produce English-qualified players who are then away for six months. Clubs are not adequately compensated in the cap.”

I put it to you that his intention is to make a mockery of the Cap.  Perhaps by the letter of the law he knows he will be seen to have worked within the specific rules.  But I feel he knows the investigators will come across other creative methods used to supplement the payment of certain of his players.  So I repeat, he wants to be seen to be toying with the rules to show how comical the idea of a salary cap is in the first place.  

We'll see what transpires.  But now we might have to wait a year... or three.  But we're all allowed speculate in advance.  Just as we're allowed predict a score, we're all allowed speculate.

Perhaps you are right. To be honest I don't know.

beshocked wrote:Munchkin that's an allegation but where is the proof?

You say some top AP clubs - why is it only Saracens who get attacked? Oh right it's because they are the one accused of everything with no proof (none of the clubs are particularly open in their opinions but Wray at least does give his opinion on a variety of topics).

Even if Saracens is one of the clubs they are not working alone yet it seems like other clubs hide behind them like a protective shield. Saracens take the flack whilst the other clubs stay anonymous.


No I am not going to agree with you because you attack people with no circumstancial evidence.

The "circumstancial" evidence is all there. What isn't there is the black and white (and red) of the accounts.

It would be much better for Wray and Saracens if Wray didn't give his opinion on a variety of topics. He could do with being open and honest though. Sadly he isn't.

I did say I wasn't going to go around in circles with this with you. It just isn't productive and you will get more upset. So that's it from me

Munchkin I am not upset. You are entitled to your opinion.

He is open and honest about wanting to scrap the salary cap. Can't expect him to be open and honest about everything.

beshocked wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I've not read all of this thread, as I deliberately wanted to stay out of it due to the fact that I know some of the facts rather than speculation as I had a long conversation last week with a member of the PRL.  Sadly curiosity got the better of me and I've read the last few posts, and against my better judgement am going to comment.

The article in The Times has the general gist right, but some of the facts are incorrect.  There has been an investigation, and one club has been found to be over the cap, and another has some 'financial irregularities' which require further investigation.  You don't need to be a genius to work out which two clubs they are.  Sadly, money talks, and I from what I have been told, they will get away with out 'for the good of the game'.  Utter Love sacks, and the owners of those two clubs are an absolute disgrace.

Ozzy3213 at least you have some "facts" that Secretfly quite clearly lacks. Doesn't surprise me to be honest though.

Better judgement? I think it's great that you've added your opinion to the mix. The biggest problem as I said is that's it RWC year in England. Difficult to drag two of the clubs under hot coals at this time.

And when someone commits a crime, it is difficult to get the judge out of bed, and difficult to have a trial and difficult to punish people. Difficult? As Ozzy says, its a disgrace what is happening, and whether Saracens are involved or not, it's weird that Ozzy's account "doesn't surprise you", when its pretty much in line with what you have been denying...

beshocked wrote:

Ozzy3213 at least you have some "facts" that Secretfly quite clearly lacks. Doesn't surprise me to be honest though.

The facts...whether they come from my fingers or Ozzy's has nothing to do with me or Ozzy, Shocked.  Facts are facts.  Whether a court finds them or fails to find them, a fact is always a fact.  If a person has murdered someone but is found innocent in court, that conclusion doesn't make him innocent of the crime.  The fact is still that he murdered someone.  The conclusion is that he got away with it.

So you say Ozzy at least presents 'facts' unlike me who presented my speculation based on Media speculation.  It doesn't matter from what source my comments come from, the overall conclusion remains the same as Ozzy's.  
The FACT is sides were being investigated for suspected cap dodging.  

You yourself KNOW in your own mind such an enquiry was ongoing, you just decided to play devil's advocate and constantly say 'Maybe no investigation ever happened'.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I've not read all of this thread, as I deliberately wanted to stay out of it due to the fact that I know some of the facts rather than speculation as I had a long conversation last week with a member of the PRL.  Sadly curiosity got the better of me and I've read the last few posts, and against my better judgement am going to comment.

The article in The Times has the general gist right, but some of the facts are incorrect.  There has been an investigation, and one club has been found to be over the cap, and another has some 'financial irregularities' which require further investigation.  You don't need to be a genius to work out which two clubs they are.  Sadly, money talks, and I from what I have been told, they will get away with out 'for the good of the game'.  Utter Love sacks, and the owners of those two clubs are an absolute disgrace.

Well, this has a long way to run before it's over. Talking to someone who is part of the Players Association, it seems many players are not amused and are considering an emergency meeting to discuss actions. One suggestion mentioned to me was to demand a full public accounting against the threat of a player strike. In the World Cup Year. At home.

I have read that some players weren't happy at all about this, but would never have imagined it could lead to a player strike.
I doubt it will come to a strike, but PRL are going to have to pull the finger out and deal with this honestly and quick smart before it can gets any worse.

Munchkin wrote:I have read that some players weren't happy at all about this, but would never have imagined it could lead to a player strike.
I doubt it will come to a strike, but PRL are going to have to pull the finger out and deal with this honestly and quick smart before it can gets any worse.

I would agree. That would likely be a threat of last resort. I mentioned it because it shows the depth of feeling. And when people are angry, one never knows.

Why would the PRL not pursue any investigation right now with all the might and vigour they can muster? Allegations have been made they need to scotch these pronto in full and open transparency or forever be accused of covering up from the public. That is what's damaging rugby and more especially damaging them.

Rugby at it's most basic is about honesty, integrity, loyalty and teamwork. If there is nothing to hide them why wait? If a few clubs have been caught with their pants down, stand up and face the music like true men would and cut the gangrene before it spreads too far. The PRL need to address these allegations now rather than try to sweep them under the carpet in the forlorn hope they will disappear. Everyone who believes in the ethos of rugby must want it's name not to be tarnished and so clear that name as soon as possible.

It's easy to see why the players who believe in the game enough to literally put themselves on the line every week aren't happy with the PRL's intransigence, but it's more difficult to see how any one who purports to be a rugby supporter on a forum such as this could even begin to defend it.

Gloucester’s chairman is one that would like to see the offending clubs punished. All those who were at the meeting are bound by a gagging order under threat of legal action, I assume.

From the Gloucester Citizen:

Walkinshaw remained tight-lipped but he revealed Gloucester support the cap and that more information will emerge in the weeks ahead.

Walkinshaw said: "I have got plenty of views, none of which I am going to share with you tonight. There is only so much I can say to the press at the moment in time. I would love to speak more but I can't.

"We are hugely in favour of the salary cap. We fought very hard to push any salary punishments that there were to be and we will have to wait and see what happens with that."