AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation!

by yappysnap Wed 29 Apr 2015, 10:44 am

First topic message reminder :

It's from The Times so only a snap shot:

Exclusive: Clubs block salary-cap investigation

Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches

John Westerby, Owen Slot Chief Rugby Correspondent

Leading clubs in England have voted in favour of suspending investigations into potential salary-cap breaches to protect the image of the Aviva Premiership.
At a time when Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches, The Times understands that a majority of clubs have voted for inquiries to be suspended, in part for fear of alienating sponsors and fans, and jeopardising their position in negotiations with the RFU over a new relationship governing the release of England players.

I can not see how this can mean anything other then Saracens were found to be in breach of the cap, and the clubs have decided to act amongst themselves and cover it up rather then it go further.

Is this good for the game in England?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 18 May 2015, 7:15 pm

SecretFly wrote:One more time.... back to exclusively AP Salary Cap talk.....

AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation! - Page 12 Cap10

by SecretFly Mon 18 May 2015, 7:17 pm

Who profits from that merchandise??? More controversy.

by Sin é Mon 18 May 2015, 7:39 pm

Beshocked, you bang on about the Province's finances but you won't accept the investment that is put into players through the Irish provincincial academies. For example, JJ Hanrahan. He was identified as a 15 year old, sent to a rugby school (he comes from a non-rugby area), played underage for Munster & Ireland (i.e., at two U20 world cups). Northampton comes in and offers him 200K a year which Munster couldn't match for a player of his experience and age. Its easy for Northampton to have that kind of cash when they don't have to invest in developing him.

JJ is just one of many young Irish players who the English Premiership & Chamionship are benefitting from.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 May 2015, 9:08 pm

Saracens and all the other clubs do the same Sin in developing players. S ome will move on some won t make it etc

by Sin é Mon 18 May 2015, 9:24 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Saracens and all the other clubs do the same Sin in developing players. S ome will move on some won t make it etc

Saracens have 6 in their academy, Munster have 20.

http://www.saracens.com/academy-squad/

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/academy.php

Northampton don't actually give profiles of their academy players, but JJ isn't the first young Munster player that they have tried to poach.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 May 2015, 9:31 pm

Do you think Saracens have only developed 6 players? Or their academy win last year was won with 6 players? Or Northamton haven t lost players to other clubs. Poached, what world do you live in?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 18 May 2015, 9:43 pm

Sin é wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Saracens and all the other clubs do the same Sin in developing players. S ome will move on some won t make it etc

Saracens have 6 in their academy, Munster have 20.

http://www.saracens.com/academy-squad/

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/academy.php

Northampton don't actually give profiles of their academy players, but JJ isn't the first young Munster player that they have tried to poach.

I already told you earlier that those 6 are just the ones that have made first team appearances - and that Sarries won the Academy League this year. Just repeating an untruth does not make it any more true.

by Guest Mon 18 May 2015, 9:50 pm

To be fair I think the information on Saracens site claims it's the Academy Squad. It's a bit lacking. If you were to check out Ulster Rugby's academy squad you will find 20 players, including the four who have made the step up and played for the senior team.

If it says the academy squad it should be the academy squad.

P.s where are the details of the rest of the academy squad?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 May 2015, 9:53 pm

Saracens had to fire their web designer as he was putting them over budget.

by Guest Mon 18 May 2015, 9:55 pm

Not only Griffiths but their web designer! The Tea Lady is next! Shocked

by **LondonTiger** Mon 18 May 2015, 10:12 pm

Munchkin wrote:P.s where are the details of the rest of the academy squad?

In a match day program

by Guest Mon 18 May 2015, 10:21 pm

Aye, sounds about right. Saracens are brushing any evidence of a full academy squad under the carpet. This is true.

So, no official links for the academy squad, other than the official link to the academy squad of 6. Funny old world when an academy squad is not an academy squad and someone is berated for assuming the academy squad is in fact the academy squad, because it says so on the tin!

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 May 2015, 10:34 pm

The point was around developing players though. He seems to be suggesting English clubs dont do this.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 18 May 2015, 10:36 pm

No they were berated for ignoring my initial polite correction.

This board is too full of idiots who refuse to read anyone else's posts and keep posting garbage. In a page time this poster will say the same thing, and unless corrected will be believed.

Now why do sarries not publish the entire academy list? Probably because it is huge. They have been mopping up pretty much every County Level player from Herts, Essex and Cambs - then refusing to let them play for the counties. Should any talented player turn them down well they can tend to make threats.

Anyway plenty of sticks to beat Sarries with, but they do have a large and extensive academy.

by doctor_grey Mon 18 May 2015, 11:11 pm

Sin é wrote:Northampton don't actually give profiles of their academy players, but JJ isn't the first young Munster player that they have tried to poach.

Just for information, most of the time it is the player's agent who reaches out to teams/clubs to alert their player is available, not the other way around. So if it is poaching, the process starting with the seller, not the poacher.
When you use the term 'poach', it implies, to me at least, something underhanded or untoward. Instead of a player making himself available on the open market.

by Guest Mon 18 May 2015, 11:23 pm

LondonTiger wrote:No they were berated for ignoring my initial polite correction.

This board is too full of idiots who refuse to read anyone else's posts and keep posting garbage. In a page time this poster will say the same thing, and unless corrected will be believed.

Now why do sarries not publish the entire academy list? Probably because it is huge. They have been mopping up pretty much every County Level player from Herts, Essex and Cambs - then refusing to let them play for the counties. Should any talented player turn them down well they can tend to make threats.

Anyway plenty of sticks to beat Sarries with, but they do have a large and extensive academy.

I tend to miss things. Need to watch myself with you, LT!

Anyway, all the evidence is there. In a match day program...

Nuff said Very Happy

by Sin é Mon 18 May 2015, 11:24 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Sin é wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Saracens and all the other clubs do the same Sin in developing players. S ome will move on some won t make it etc

Saracens have 6 in their academy, Munster have 20.

http://www.saracens.com/academy-squad/

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/academy.php

Northampton don't actually give profiles of their academy players, but JJ isn't the first young Munster player that they have tried to poach.

I already told you earlier that those 6 are just the ones that have made first team appearances - and that Sarries won the Academy League this year. Just repeating an untruth does not make it any more true.

Yea, I see they have a tie-up with Oakland Wolves. It would look like Oaklands provides the training and Saracens provides an opportunity to play in the academy league for them.

Some joke of an academy.

http://wolves.oaklands.ac.uk/academies/rugby-academy.aspx

by Sin é Mon 18 May 2015, 11:29 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Sin é wrote:Northampton don't actually give profiles of their academy players, but JJ isn't the first young Munster player that they have tried to poach.
Just for information, most of the time it is the player's agent who reaches out to teams/clubs to alert their player is available, not the other way around. So if it is poaching, the process starting with the seller, not the poacher.
When you use the term 'poach', it implies, to me at least, something underhanded or untoward. Instead of a player making himself available on the open market.

I'd imagine that JJ was on the look out (knowing who his agent is), but Ian Nagle was spotted playing for Munster A in a B&I Cup game and was approached. (Nagle has since given up on rugby, moved to the States and I think maybe on his way to study in one of the Oxbridge colleges next year). He was a fine player, just picked up a lot of injuries.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 18 May 2015, 11:30 pm

Sin é wrote:Saracens have 6 in their academy, Munster have 20.

http://www.saracens.com/academy-squad/

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/rugby/academy.php

I know for a fact that Max Wilkins is in the Saracens academy, and a lad called George Perkins was certainly there last year, and probably still is. I'm not even a Saracens supporter, but if even I can instantly think of two players who aren't mentioned, then it's clear that website link doesn't tell you the full story of how many are in their academy.

None of which, in my mind, is directly relevant to possible breaches of the salary cap. There can be any number of reasons why a club might want to increase or abolish the cap. However, if you sign up to it as a condition for creating a competitive, and commercially viable league, then all parties should stick to it. No-one should have the right to unilaterally break it.[/quote]

by Sin é Mon 18 May 2015, 11:34 pm

LondonTiger wrote:No they were berated for ignoring my initial polite correction.

This board is too full of idiots who refuse to read anyone else's posts and keep posting garbage. In a page time this poster will say the same thing, and unless corrected will be believed.

Now why do sarries not publish the entire academy list? Probably because it is huge. They have been mopping up pretty much every County Level player from Herts, Essex and Cambs - then refusing to let them play for the counties. Should any talented player turn them down well they can tend to make threats.

Anyway plenty of sticks to beat Sarries with, but they do have a large and extensive academy.

Cop yourself on! Perhaps you might explain why Saracens name 6 players (and no, I don't believe your man sausage and bulls story that only players who have played for the first team are mentioned in the academy).

There is no mention of academy staff either on the Saracens website which is pretty unusual for an academy to have no coaches.

Edit: I see HERTFORD RUGBY FOOTBALL CLUB is also a 'proud partner of Saracens Herts Middlesex Junior Leagues'. Hereford RFC are 'very proud that all their coaches hold RFU coaching qualifications to at least Level 1 status.'

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 19 May 2015, 1:38 am

Sin é wrote:I see HERTFORD RUGBY FOOTBALL CLUB is also a 'proud partner of Saracens Herts Middlesex Junior Leagues'. Hereford RFC are 'very proud that all their coaches hold RFU coaching qualifications to at least Level 1 status.'

Why would you think community links are a bad thing? Most premiership academies do the same. Gloucester has strong ties with Hartpury College, and Jonny May came through that route.

by LordDowlais Tue 19 May 2015, 6:18 am

SecretFly wrote:You're again trying to pass the buck. Irish sides can spend what they can afford.... true. Never denied it. As can Welsh Regions!

No we cannot, there is a salary cap for the regions as well, surely you know this ?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 May 2015, 7:43 am

Sin é wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:No they were berated for ignoring my initial polite correction.

This board is too full of idiots who refuse to read anyone else's posts and keep posting garbage. In a page time this poster will say the same thing, and unless corrected will be believed.

Now why do sarries not publish the entire academy list? Probably because it is huge. They have been mopping up pretty much every County Level player from Herts, Essex and Cambs - then refusing to let them play for the counties. Should any talented player turn them down well they can tend to make threats.

Anyway plenty of sticks to beat Sarries with, but they do have a large and extensive academy.

Cop yourself on! Perhaps you might explain why Saracens name 6 players (and no, I don't believe your man sausage and bulls story that only players who have played for the first team are mentioned in the academy).

There is no mention of academy staff either on the Saracens website which is pretty unusual for an academy to have no coaches.

Edit: I see HERTFORD RUGBY FOOTBALL CLUB is also a 'proud partner of Saracens Herts Middlesex Junior Leagues'. Hereford RFC are 'very proud that all their coaches hold RFU coaching qualifications to at least Level 1 status.'

Have a look on the same website for the u18 academy team winning their league. If you re really trying to make a valid point that English teams dont develop players you ll have a look and admit you re wrong.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 19 May 2015, 8:27 am

why do Sarries only list the 6 members who have appeared for the first team? Not sure, but I have my suspicions - based on the conversations their academy coaches had with my nephew who turned them down.

Anyway here is a 7th member for you, going to the JWC - http://www.englandrugby.com/england/england-20s/squads/george-perkins/

And links to the matches in the Academies League:

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures/21965.php#zfTRt1E5xVKdKMIp.97

by Irish Londoner Tue 19 May 2015, 8:40 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Saracens had to fire their web designer as he was putting them over budget.

Was it because of the overtime costs he was building up deleting emails and folders on their mainframe over the last three months Run

by Irish Londoner Tue 19 May 2015, 8:45 am

Sin é wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Edit: I see HERTFORD RUGBY FOOTBALL CLUB is also a 'proud partner of Saracens Herts Middlesex Junior Leagues'. Hereford RFC are 'very proud that all their coaches hold RFU coaching qualifications to at least Level 1 status.'

Sin - A level 1 coaching qualification is the RFU level for coaching minis and juniors, so unless Saracens have taken talent spotting to an extreme level, the two things are not related. We are a Saracens partner club and we sort our own coaching Saracens do not support it.

by beshocked Tue 19 May 2015, 9:04 am

Secretfly you still have no cap.

As for saying that Saracens will get in a bidding war for the best players - you have no proof of that - Londontiger and I have both already said that Wray tried that method and it failed.

I agree I do think he wants Saracens to be the best in Europe but I don't think he wants to use the dad's army method.

Yes I did actually mention that last year. I mentioned that the French had managed to trick you Irish into attacking the English.

Londontiger I apologise I didn't respond to one of your earlier posts. Only because I had about 4 other posters I had to respond to.

Sin e you seem to naively believe that Saracens don't make an effort to develop youngsters which is wrong.

to me personally it seems this so called academy issue you believe Saracens have is another stick to beat them with as Londontiger also put it.

You can question Saracens methods and way they conduct their business but they have put efforts into developing youngsters.

by SecretFly Tue 19 May 2015, 9:29 am

LondonTiger wrote:

This board is too full of idiots.

Now we're making Progress! Wink

by **LondonTiger** Tue 19 May 2015, 9:30 am

SecretFly wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:

This board is too full of idiots.

Now we're making Progress!

Well, we are the King and Queen of Idiots.

by SecretFly Tue 19 May 2015, 9:32 am

beshocked wrote:Secretfly you still have no cap.

As for saying that Saracens will get in a bidding war for the best players - you have no proof of that - Londontiger and I have both already said that Wray tried that method and it failed.

I agree I do think he wants Saracens to be the best in Europe but I don't think he wants to use the dad's army method.

Yes I did actually mention that last year. I mentioned that the French had managed to trick you Irish into attacking the English.

This is good stuff! Laugh

by Sin é Tue 19 May 2015, 9:39 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
Sin é wrote:I see HERTFORD RUGBY FOOTBALL CLUB is also a 'proud partner of Saracens Herts Middlesex Junior Leagues'. Hereford RFC are 'very proud that all their coaches hold RFU coaching qualifications to at least Level 1 status.'
Why would you think community links are a bad thing? Most premiership academies do the same. Gloucester has strong ties with Hartpury College, and Jonny May came through that route.

I don't think its a bad thing - just claiming the credit for having an academy for basically entering them into a league isn't what I would consider to be an academy. When comparing English Club and Irish Province budgets take into account the cost of running an academy by a province with 20 named players and this kind of staff (who the likes of JJ Hanrahan etc. have all benefited from).

Munster Academy Staff
Peter Malone - Elite Player Development Manager
Grieg Oliver - Elite Player Development Officer
Colm McMahon - Elite Player Development Officer
Feargal O'Callaghan - Academy Strength and Conditioning
Joe McGinley - Academy Strength and Conditioning
Ross Callaghan - Sub Academy Strength and Conditioning
Gordon Brett - Sub Academy Strength and Conditioning
Damien Mordan - Academy Physio
Patrick Hanley - Academy Physio
Elliot Corcoran - Academy Video Analysis

Saracens 'academy' seems to be something like what Munster refer to as a Sub Academy which is for kids who have just finished school and who are helped and monitored for a year or two while in college before they are taken into the Academy.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 May 2015, 9:43 am

So you can't admit you're wrong then Sin?

by beshocked Tue 19 May 2015, 9:45 am

It's true though. I remember that the English were getting most of the criticism during the European talks with the French being conveniently ignored.

The French stepped back, allowing the likes of Mccafferty and Craig to be the sacrifical lambs.

Do you know who is taking a similar role in this salary cap argument?

Of course it's Nigel Wray and Saracens. Bearing the brunt of criticism whilst others hide behind them. We know that Saracens aren't the only club to be accused of breaking the salary cap.

Nigel Wray could easily say that he would ignore media questions but he has not.

Oh and look who it is who are most vocal - the Irish posters again!

by The Great Aukster Tue 19 May 2015, 9:51 am

Isn't it fairly obvious why Saracens only name six players in their academy squad who contribute to their salary cap?

Strange why the Academy coaches aren't mentioned though if they're employees - or has McCall's alleged seven figure p.a. remuneration blown the unofficial cap on coaches too!

by SecretFly Tue 19 May 2015, 9:56 am

beshocked wrote:It's true though. I remember that the English were getting most of the criticism during the European talks with the French being conveniently ignored.

The French stepped back, allowing the likes of Mccafferty and Craig to be the sacrifical lambs.

Do you know who is taking a similar role in this salary cap argument?

Of course it's Nigel Wray and Saracens. Bearing the brunt of criticism whilst others hide behind them. We know that Saracens aren't the only club to be accused of breaking the salary cap.

Nigel Wray could easily say that he would ignore media questions but he has not.

Oh and look who it is who are most vocal - the Irish posters again!

I know what happened last year.
I know who came out throwing the accusations around first.
I know where those accusations were going.
I know the specific Nation mentioned.
I know the specific people mentioning the specific Nation.

The French Tricked the Irish into attacking the English????

I suggest you look back on the drama that unfolded from the Beginning - not the middle or end. The English wanted to be our Friends? The English wanted us all to get together and attack the French?

I know revision of History always happens but have the good grace to wait a few years before trying it, Shocked.

by doctor_grey Tue 19 May 2015, 10:05 am

Sin é wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Sin é wrote:Northampton don't actually give profiles of their academy players, but JJ isn't the first young Munster player that they have tried to poach.
Just for information, most of the time it is the player's agent who reaches out to teams/clubs to alert their player is available, not the other way around. So if it is poaching, the process starting with the seller, not the poacher.
When you use the term 'poach', it implies, to me at least, something underhanded or untoward. Instead of a player making himself available on the open market.

I'd imagine that JJ was on the look out (knowing who his agent is), but Ian Nagle was spotted playing for Munster A in a B&I Cup game and was approached. (Nagle has since given up on rugby, moved to the States and I think maybe on his way to study in one of the Oxbridge colleges next year). He was a fine player, just picked up a lot of injuries.

Not exactly sure how the loan process works. You said Nagle was spotted playing B&I? Was this by Newcastle? And then Munster agreed to loan him for the season? From the little I do understand about player loans, both teams plus the player must agree. But he remains under contract to the original team.

by beshocked Tue 19 May 2015, 10:06 am

Secretfly it was the English who pushed for the change (with the French agreeing but silently nodding) - this led to Irish fury as you realised your cushy existence was in danger.

The French sat back - allowing the English to take the brunt of the criticism.

I never said the English wanted to be your friends. I said that I personally saw the threat of the French.

I still see the threat of the French having a far larger cap.

by Sin é Tue 19 May 2015, 10:09 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you can't admit you're wrong then Sin?

Why would I admit to being wrong when it is obvious that Saracens have a micky mouse 'Academy' with no coaching staff?

by doctor_grey Tue 19 May 2015, 10:10 am

SecretFly wrote:
The French Tricked the Irish into attacking the English????

I suggest you look back on the drama that unfolded from the Beginning - not the middle or end. The English wanted to be our Friends? The English wanted us all to get together and attack the French?

I know revision of History always happens but have the good grace to wait a few years before trying it, Shocked.

This reads like England-Ireland-France during the time of Henry VIII and Elizabeth I.
Where, oh where, is Sir Francis Drake to rule the waves and keep the infidels off the noble backs of our peoples???????
I bet he would have been a fly half.

by Sin é Tue 19 May 2015, 10:13 am

beshocked wrote:
Sin e you seem to naively believe that Saracens don't make an effort to develop youngsters which is wrong.

Saracens seems to pretend that they develop youngsters when in fact they let everyone else do it for them and they kindly allow them to play in an Academy League under the same of Saracens.

I see Leicester Tigers have 39 in their academy including another Tualagi who is a prop.

by Guest Tue 19 May 2015, 10:18 am

You can't honestly believe that the French somehow tricked the Irish into fighting the English?

You might have seen the threat of the French, beshocked, but the likes of Wray, Craig and McCafferty seemed oblivious to it, and doing all in their power to help ensure the French were more of a threat.

The reason anyone reacted to Wray, Craig and McCafferty is because Wray, Craig and McCafferty are the ones who were pushing to scrap ERC, and they were the ones who were doing most of the shouting. These guys are not the victims in all this, and neither are Sarries if the stories are accurate.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 May 2015, 10:25 am

You really can't admit it then Sin? Swallow your pride, Saracens and all the clubs develop players.

by SecretFly Tue 19 May 2015, 10:26 am

beshocked wrote:Secretfly it was the English who pushed for the change (with the French agreeing but silently nodding) - this led to Irish fury as you realised your cushy existence was in danger.

And you query why Irish let the French trick them into attacking the English????? Headscratch

Doc Grey is right. Yahoo

The intrigue, and backstabbing, and handkerchief sniffing, and torture racking, and smarmy putdowns DO have a delicious aspect of Elizabethan times when the running through with good English steel was the right and proper way to turn crass ruffians into good mannered subjects of the Queen, sir!!! Verily, it is to be wished for that the Irish would not look upon the filthy French as allies and, therefore, it is best to run them through sir, that they would see the error of their ways and know a true friend when commanded to do so!"

by Guest Tue 19 May 2015, 10:30 am

You would have to admit, No7 it does seem odd that the Sarries site only lists 6 players in their academy squad, and no coaching staff?
I would have thought Sarries would have made a big thing of showcasing all their academy players. I can only think that the Sarries academy is very different to the Provinces academies.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 19 May 2015, 10:30 am

Nah, it is a much more modern tale of greed and deceipt.

PRL are Ocean's 12 - taking the money away from the dastardly and nefarious Celts who were hoarding it all in the den in Dublin.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 May 2015, 10:34 am

Well do you think the coaches and players of the U18 side which won the league are made up Munchkin?

by beshocked Tue 19 May 2015, 10:35 am

Munchkin yes I do. I think the French were one of the craftiest parties during the European discussions.

You say that Wray,Craig and McCafferty pushed to scrap the ERC - just because they did most of the shouting doesn't mean it was just them who wanted to scrap the ERC.

It was the French too but they were ignored by you Irish.

Perhaps Wray,Craig etc are not the victims but they are getting a verbal kicking before anything has been proved.

I never saw an effort from you Irish to align yourself with us English against the French.

by SecretFly Tue 19 May 2015, 10:35 am

LondonTiger wrote:Nah, it is a much more modern tale of greed and deceipt.

PRL are Ocean's 12 - taking the money away from the dastardly and nefarious Celts who were hoarding it all in the den in Dublin.

Yeah, I like that. That'll do too. Dastardly and Nefarious. Yep, I'm liking that - that's plumb sexy, that is. The bad guys always get the meatier roles.

Can I do the stare from out of the shadows as a captured English honest broker is taken to the den for the first time to meet the chief Celt Negotiator, who is called The Brute?

by **LondonTiger** Tue 19 May 2015, 10:38 am

Munchkin wrote:You would have to admit, No7 it does seem odd that the Sarries site only lists 6 players in their academy squad, and no coaching staff?

Have you looked at their website? It is the worst one out there.

Saracens have an official RFU sanctioned academy. It is audited every year by the RFU before the annual payment is passed on for running it. They have responsibility for developing rugby (and attracting players) from North East London, Essex, Herts and Cambs. They agrressively recruit players from those counties, attending all age group county matches.

Now my suspicion is that:

1) They are too lazy to generate the database to store the player details for anyone who they do not need to include in Matchday reports
2) Based on what I have seen with my nephew they actually have more players than they are allowed to have.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Tue 19 May 2015, 10:44 am

Sin é wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So you can't admit you're wrong then Sin?

Why would I admit to being wrong when it is obvious that Saracens have a micky mouse 'Academy' with no coaching staff?

A mickey mouse academy that provided 5 players to England's winning match day squad in last year's JWC final (plus one more who trained with them).

For the lazy googlers amongst us, try "Saracens Academy Coaches" or "Don Barrell" or "Rory Teague"

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