AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation!

by yappysnap Wed 29 Apr 2015, 10:44 am

First topic message reminder :

It's from The Times so only a snap shot:

Exclusive: Clubs block salary-cap investigation

Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches

John Westerby, Owen Slot Chief Rugby Correspondent

Leading clubs in England have voted in favour of suspending investigations into potential salary-cap breaches to protect the image of the Aviva Premiership.
At a time when Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches, The Times understands that a majority of clubs have voted for inquiries to be suspended, in part for fear of alienating sponsors and fans, and jeopardising their position in negotiations with the RFU over a new relationship governing the release of England players.

I can not see how this can mean anything other then Saracens were found to be in breach of the cap, and the clubs have decided to act amongst themselves and cover it up rather then it go further.

Is this good for the game in England?

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 19 May 2015, 1:23 pm

Sin é wrote:Quote from London Tiger:
''I already told you earlier that those 6 are just the ones that have made first team appearances - and that Sarries won the Academy League this year. Just repeating an untruth does not make it any more true.''

Exactly what I explained above, and not what you take it to mean. Have another read.

by Sin é Tue 19 May 2015, 1:29 pm

Cyril wrote:Is it true (as I read on here a while back) that the Sin é account was a joke one set up by a regular poster for a laugh?

Come on, own up whoever you are! I think they have to be a Leinster fan, to try and make Munster fans look so weird...

When you resort to having a go at the poster, you know you've won the argument Wink

by Guest Tue 19 May 2015, 1:29 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Sin é wrote:Quote from London Tiger:
''I already told you earlier that those 6 are just the ones that have made first team appearances - and that Sarries won the Academy League this year. Just repeating an untruth does not make it any more true.''
Exactly what I explained above, and not what you take it to mean. Have another read.

Doesn't matter how you read it. It still reads as though only those academy players with first team experience are listed as the academy.

by Sin é Tue 19 May 2015, 1:30 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Sin é wrote:Quote from London Tiger:
''I already told you earlier that those 6 are just the ones that have made first team appearances - and that Sarries won the Academy League this year. Just repeating an untruth does not make it any more true.''
Exactly what I explained above, and not what you take it to mean. Have another read.

So how do you get to be named as in the Academy if you haven't played first team rugby?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 May 2015, 1:36 pm

The term Saracens use as the Academy has no real bearing in whether they develop players or not though does it? The could call it anything it wouldn't matter. You've already said that it's the school coaches who develop the players who go onto play for England achieving a similar level as Munsters coaches anyway so I thought it was sorted. No need to pay money to people to develop players when school teachers manage to replicate Munsters achievements.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Tue 19 May 2015, 1:45 pm

Sin é wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Sin é wrote:My first comment on the subject was that it wasn't much of an academy with 6 players. I was then told that Saracens had won the Academy League and that they must have more than 6 Players. I was then told you are not named in the Saracens academy unless you have played first team rugby

The facts are that the Saracen's 'Academy' is a sham in the true sense of the world, so lets hope you stop pretending that they are developing players, because they are not - they seem to be picking off the best youngsters in their assigned district when they are pretty close to being the finished product. They are not putting any money into developing rugby players
You weren't told by anyone that players aren't considered to be in the Saracens academy unless they have played first team rugby. That's another false claim.

You were told that there are obviously more than six players in the Saracens academy - something you ought to have realized for yourself - and some posters speculated why the website doesn't reflect that obvious fact. I know it isn't a question of first team rugby, because academy players have turned out in the LV=Cup. I mentioned that above, so that shouldn't be news to you.

You seem to think that if a player comes out of school and joins the academy, then Saracens has added no value to his development. And yet you have already been told that such players will often represent Saracens U18s. That's the case with Max Wilkins.

We aren't writing in riddles here, so it really shouldn't take so long for the penny to drop.

Quote from London Tiger:
''I already told you earlier that those 6 are just the ones that have made first team appearances - and that Sarries won the Academy League this year. Just repeating an untruth does not make it any more true.''

So what is it then - why are only 6 players named in Saracens Academy. What is the relationship between Saracens and Oaklands?

Oaklands is a Further Education establishment that provides the AASE (Advanced Apprenticeship in Sporting Excellence) course that most of England's Academy players study. Following is cut and paste blurb:

The scheme has been running in England Rugby Academies since 2006, with each Academy working with a local education provider, who delivers the Technical Certificate and Key Skills, whilst the Academy staff deliver the rugby element of the course.

The course is run over two years, with the AASE framework providing a structured national training and development route. The framework contains a National Vocational Qualification (NVQ) which is fully reflective of the broad range of competences required to be successful in the AASE, such as the technical, tactical, physical and psychological aspects of rugby. It also addresses wider issues of being a professional player such as lifestyle, communication, wider career management, and health and safety.
The AASE programme is designed to give Rugby Apprentices the best chance of developing and maintaining a career as a professional rugby player. The 'Manage your own Career' Unit (ES6 of the NVQ) covers the skills and processes needed to plan and manage a career in rugby, it also helps players to identify and plan an alternative career path.

As well as working towards their AASE pupils are also able to study for additional qualifications and many pupils have also completed 3 A levels or a BTEC at the same time, whilst each player's timetable has training scheduled into their school week, meaning they are in regular contact with the Academy staff

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 19 May 2015, 1:48 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Sin é wrote:Quote from London Tiger:
''I already told you earlier that those 6 are just the ones that have made first team appearances - and that Sarries won the Academy League this year. Just repeating an untruth does not make it any more true.''
Exactly what I explained above, and not what you take it to mean. Have another read.

Doesn't matter how you read it. It still reads as though only those academy players with first team experience are listed as the academy.

It's self-evident the club's website does not detail all the members of the Saracens academy. LT thought the deficiency - because that's all it is - might be related to whether an academy player had turned out for the first team. I already pointed out that this isn't the case, since Academy players have turned out in the LV=Cup and still don't warrant a mention.

It might be the case that those six players happen to have a photo on the website because they all played in an Aviva Premiership match. Even if that happens to be the reason, no-one is saying that Saracens only deem a player to a member of their academy if they have played a Premiership game.

Of course, anyone determined to use only one page of the club's website as evidence to form an conclusion - rather than common sense, news, social media sources - is going to look a little silly. Even a couple of clicks on the same site would help.

http://www.saracens.com/academy-starlets-re-sign/

by HammerofThunor Tue 19 May 2015, 1:50 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Sin é wrote:Quote from London Tiger:
''I already told you earlier that those 6 are just the ones that have made first team appearances - and that Sarries won the Academy League this year. Just repeating an untruth does not make it any more true.''
Exactly what I explained above, and not what you take it to mean. Have another read.

Doesn't matter how you read it. It still reads as though only those academy players with first team experience are listed as the academy.

although as pointed out by someone else there are players who've paid LV cup games and not been included. Basically, I wouldn't take the Saracens website academy list as anything definitive. None of the website squad lists are always 100% correct. I've gone through them in past to work out how many starts each player has and you often end up with a few games short. You also get new players at the club not on there until someone can be bother to update it. If you rely on them being 100% correct and cover everything then you're setting yourself up for a fall.

by SecretFly Tue 19 May 2015, 1:50 pm

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:It also addresses wider issues of being a professional player such as lifestyle, communication, wider career management, and health and safety [of cops]

by SecretFly Tue 19 May 2015, 1:59 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Basically, I wouldn't take the Saracens website academy list as anything definitive. None of the website squad lists are always 100% correct. I've gone through them in past to work out how many starts each player has and you often end up with a few games short. You also get new players at the club not on there until someone can be bother to update it. If you rely on them being 100% correct and cover everything then you're setting yourself up for a fall.

Yes, yes....we've been learning all those aspects about Saracens in recent weeks, Hammer.
'We could be doing it.
We mightn't be doing it.
Nobody can prove we are doing it.
Who cares if it's being done at all.
Let's all move on and continue doing what some of us aren't doing together, in a unity of spirit and cooperation, for the good of those few doing it and not afraid not to admit to it'

by Sin é Tue 19 May 2015, 2:17 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Sin é wrote:Quote from London Tiger:
''I already told you earlier that those 6 are just the ones that have made first team appearances - and that Sarries won the Academy League this year. Just repeating an untruth does not make it any more true.''
Exactly what I explained above, and not what you take it to mean. Have another read.

Doesn't matter how you read it. It still reads as though only those academy players with first team experience are listed as the academy.

although as pointed out by someone else there are players who've paid LV cup games and not been included. Basically, I wouldn't take the Saracens website academy list as anything definitive. None of the website squad lists are always 100% correct. I've gone through them in past to work out how many starts each player has and you often end up with a few games short. You also get new players at the club not on there until someone can be bother to update it. If you rely on them being 100% correct and cover everything then you're setting yourself up for a fall.

If Saracens don't take their 'Academy' serious enough to put accurate information on their website on it, how do you expect us to take it serious.

To me, it looks like Saracens have farmed it out to Oaklands and are concentrating on persueing talent in underdeveloped countries in their Global Network.

I'd expect them to be about 90% correct.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 May 2015, 2:21 pm

Quite a long way from the salary cap now aren't we? Discussing how school teachers easily match the best of Munsters coaches!

by Sin é Tue 19 May 2015, 2:27 pm

School teachers make some of the best coaches - Graham Henry, Joe Schmidt, Declan Kidney ... all ex-schoolteachers.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 May 2015, 2:29 pm

Yup. You should get rid of the pro coaches save yourself some money.

by Sin é Tue 19 May 2015, 2:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup. You should get rid of the pro coaches save yourself some money.

The way it works is that you probably won't need to break the salary cap if you develop your own players. Wink

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 May 2015, 2:35 pm

Save yourself more though let the school teachers get the same level out as professional coaches that Munster currently have. It's a no brainer isn't it? If your coaches are no better than teachers no point in paying them. I'm amazed more clubs aren't following the format, guess the guys at the top there are just slow on the up take.

by broadlandboy Tue 19 May 2015, 2:35 pm

Sin It just means Sarries have a cr@p website not a cr@p academy.

by Sin é Tue 19 May 2015, 2:51 pm

broadlandboy wrote:Sin It just means Sarries have a cr@p website not a cr@p academy.

They don't have an academy - its 'partnered' out to Oakland ... so its a big lie to claim that Saracens are developing their own talent.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 May 2015, 2:54 pm

Yeah, like you said. School teachers. Matching the might of Munster. Makes you wonder if there's some sort of dodgy dealings over in Ireland. What are they doing to justify their salaries?

by SecretFly Tue 19 May 2015, 3:06 pm

It's all Dodge over here.... Wink

But we've done that story last year.
This year its AP dodge that's the new Black.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 May 2015, 3:07 pm

Typical. Blame the teachers! It's all a government conspiracy to cover the fact that Elvis is the true coach.

by Irish Londoner Tue 19 May 2015, 3:10 pm

Sin, no axe to grind in the defence of Saracens and certainly not into any breaches of the salary cap, however as someone who lives in North London and is a member of a club who are partnered with Saracens, you are rather barking up the wrong tree here regarding their academy.

Saracens do run an academy squad based out of their training centre in St. Albans, however in common with many of the Avivia clubs the players are not solely attached to them. Their academy players basically come from three sources;
1 - Rugby clubs and the county RFU's (In this case Herts and Middlesex RFUs) - If a young player is good enough we can recommend them for county trials, if they get in the county squad then they come to the notice of the scouts for the various local sides and then may be offered the chance to train with the age-appropriate academy side. At this stage they are still members and players primarily for the club, however if they progress then the county can (and sometimes does) ask for them not to play in club games if they have an important game for the county - later the academy also do this. My own club has boys in the academies of Saracens, Wasps and London Irish.
2 - Rugby playing schools - a large number of young rugby players are produced from the local fee-paying schools, many of these schools also offer "playing scholarships" for boys who they think will improve their team - usually for boys who could not afford the fees. The schools have links to the county set up and the pro clubs and the players get into the academy via this route.
3 - Post 16 Education - Several local 6th form colleges near me offer various courses in sports studies/sports science which include tie-ins with the local pro sides - for example Southgate College offers a combined rugby/academic course which links players with both Saracens and London Skolars/Broncos RL. Saracens and as far as I know other clubs like their school age academy players to go in these courses as the boys get an academic education as well as a sporting one so if they don't make it they have something to fall back on, e.g. physio, gym instructor, coaching.

There are similar link ups with other sports sides such at Spurs for the footballers.

The really good ones get pro/semi pro Academy contracts with Saracens the rest go on to other things.

All the Avivia rugby clubs recruit in roughly the same way as above.

by wolfball Tue 19 May 2015, 3:28 pm

Sin, i know you won't heed this, but please stop all this nonsense about Sarries academy on this thread. Start a new thread about academies if you want, but stop polluting the very real and important discussion of potential PRL internal corruption.

by Sin é Tue 19 May 2015, 5:29 pm

by Guest Tue 19 May 2015, 5:49 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Sin é wrote:Quote from London Tiger:
''I already told you earlier that those 6 are just the ones that have made first team appearances - and that Sarries won the Academy League this year. Just repeating an untruth does not make it any more true.''
Exactly what I explained above, and not what you take it to mean. Have another read.

Doesn't matter how you read it. It still reads as though only those academy players with first team experience are listed as the academy.
It's self-evident the club's website does not detail all the members of the Saracens academy. LT thought the deficiency - because that's all it is - might be related to whether an academy player had turned out for the first team. I already pointed out that this isn't the case, since Academy players have turned out in the LV=Cup and still don't warrant a mention.

It might be the case that those six players happen to have a photo on the website because they all played in an Aviva Premiership match. Even if that happens to be the reason, no-one is saying that Saracens only deem a player to a member of their academy if they have played a Premiership game.

Of course, anyone determined to use only one page of the club's website as evidence to form an conclusion - rather than common sense, news, social media sources - is going to look a little silly. Even a couple of clicks on the same site would help.

http://www.saracens.com/academy-starlets-re-sign/

Hmmm...did you miss my point on purpose? You asked Sin e to read the comment again, as the the comment obviously means something other than Sin e took it to mean. I respond by saying that the comment can only mean one thing whichever way you read it. I was specifically referring to LT's comment.

by Guest Tue 19 May 2015, 5:56 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
Sin é wrote:Quote from London Tiger:
''I already told you earlier that those 6 are just the ones that have made first team appearances - and that Sarries won the Academy League this year. Just repeating an untruth does not make it any more true.''
Exactly what I explained above, and not what you take it to mean. Have another read.

Doesn't matter how you read it. It still reads as though only those academy players with first team experience are listed as the academy.

although as pointed out by someone else there are players who've paid LV cup games and not been included. Basically, I wouldn't take the Saracens website academy list as anything definitive. None of the website squad lists are always 100% correct. I've gone through them in past to work out how many starts each player has and you often end up with a few games short. You also get new players at the club not on there until someone can be bother to update it. If you rely on them being 100% correct and cover everything then you're setting yourself up for a fall.

I agree that many sites need updated. I was just pointing out that the comment: "I already told you earlier that those 6 are just the ones that have made first team appearances", reads as though only those with first team experience are listed as academy players, rather than academy players who are listed just happen to have first team experience.

LT, please don't think I'm having a go at you. I was simply making a poing to Rugby Fan Very Happy

by **LondonTiger** Tue 19 May 2015, 6:00 pm

Oh I am taking it very personally, and am running my bath now. Razor is sharpened and the Smiths are set to play on my stereo.

by Guest Tue 19 May 2015, 6:04 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Oh I am taking it very personally, and am running my bath now. Razor is sharpened and the Smiths are set to play on my stereo.

Wasn't my fault angel

Anyway, you don't need the razor. Just listening to the Smiths for more than an hour or so should do the trick Very Happy

by doctor_grey Tue 19 May 2015, 6:15 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:Sin, no axe to grind in the defence of Saracens and certainly not into any breaches of the salary cap, however as someone who lives in North London and is a member of a club who are partnered with Saracens, you are rather barking up the wrong tree here regarding their academy.

Saracens do run an academy squad based out of their training centre in St. Albans, however in common with many of the Avivia clubs the players are not solely attached to them. Their academy players basically come from three sources;
1 - Rugby clubs and the county RFU's (In this case Herts and Middlesex RFUs) - If a young player is good enough we can recommend them for county trials, if they get in the county squad then they come to the notice of the scouts for the various local sides and then may be offered the chance to train with the age-appropriate academy side. At this stage they are still members and players primarily for the club, however if they progress then the county can (and sometimes does) ask for them not to play in club games if they have an important game for the county - later the academy also do this. My own club has boys in the academies of Saracens, Wasps and London Irish.
2 - Rugby playing schools - a large number of young rugby players are produced from the local fee-paying schools, many of these schools also offer "playing scholarships" for boys who they think will improve their team - usually for boys who could not afford the fees. The schools have links to the county set up and the pro clubs and the players get into the academy via this route.
3 - Post 16 Education - Several local 6th form colleges near me offer various courses in sports studies/sports science which include tie-ins with the local pro sides - for example Southgate College offers a combined rugby/academic course which links players with both Saracens and London Skolars/Broncos RL. Saracens and as far as I know other clubs like their school age academy players to go in these courses as the boys get an academic education as well as a sporting one so if they don't make it they have something to fall back on, e.g. physio, gym instructor, coaching.

There are similar link ups with other sports sides such at Spurs for the footballers.

The really good ones get pro/semi pro Academy contracts with Saracens the rest go on to other things.

All the Avivia rugby clubs recruit in roughly the same way as above.

Mate,
This is a great summary of the academy process. And there are many different variations to that. Both my sons have been considered to come home and join an academy. Frankly, it is amazing how vibrant they are and how diverse they are. One of the key aspects from what i have been exposed to is the focus on education, not just the Rugby. I don't know (or really care) how many players are part of Saracens academy, but I know it is quite a lot. And they have connections with many clubs and other academies. Most of the other top clubs are the same.

by The Great Aukster Tue 19 May 2015, 6:30 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Academy players don't count unless they've played for the full team, all of which are on their website.

Max Wilkins played against London Welsh in an LV= Cup match. The website might just mention Academy players who have turned out in a Premiership match for the club.

Surely any player (academy or otherwise) is a potential addition to be considered in the salary cap calculation?

If Academy players are not counted in the 'salary cap' unless they play, how is it possible for clubs to stay within the cap? Clubs who are planning and recruiting their full squads right up to the cap limit will have no room to bring in any academy players during the season into the first team because by definition that would put them over the limit. Surely every professional player on a club's books has to be accounted for to avoid the ridiculous situation where a promising youngster in the academy can't come in as injury cover and get real game development as that would cause a breach of the salary cap?

If Academy players are not counted at all in the cap calculation then there would be a temptation for clubs to designate players as being in their academy whilst still playing regularly for the first team. Another daft situation.

If Academy players are included in the cap calculation, as would seem to be the most logical position, then it is perfectly fair that Sin é points out that Saracens are only showing a ridiculously small number on their website. Surely this could be an issue in relation to the salary cap and therefore isn't off topic at all?

by SecretFly Tue 19 May 2015, 6:45 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:

If Academy players are included in the cap calculation, as would seem to be the most logical position, then it is perfectly fair that Sin é points out that Saracens are only showing a ridiculously small number on their website. Surely this could be an issue in relation to the salary cap and therefore isn't off topic at all?

I keep saying Sin is a smart one. He annoys people of course, but he's downright unmerciful in his methodical approach....and doesn't get side-tracked by putdowns. It's the very confusions of detail with Saracens that in and of itself lends the PRL, as an overall body, to be suspicious that something is clouded and cloaked in all the shifting of furniture and hidden crevices.
If you're not suspicious then you don't have to call off or delay an Investigation, you'd simply never have contemplated one in the first place.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 May 2015, 6:55 pm

Except Sins point was that Saracens didnt deveop players but bought them. Then it moved to they dont develop them school teachers do ignoring his 1st point. You could be right that he will change hisa rgument again though!

by HammerofThunor Tue 19 May 2015, 6:59 pm

Read the regs. It's all pretty clearly set out in there.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/downloads/201415SalaryCapRegulations.pdf#search="Salary%20cap"

by broadlandboy Tue 19 May 2015, 7:00 pm

IIRC academy players aren't considered in the cap unless they play so many times for the first team. Which IIRC is why Tigers in the past were penalised for going over the cap when Manu was in the academy but played a number of games so his salary was included taking Tigers over.

by SecretFly Tue 19 May 2015, 7:26 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Except Sins point was that Saracens didnt deveop players but bought them. Then it moved to they dont develop them school teachers do ignoring his 1st point. You could be right that he will change hisa rgument again though!

Was his point not that Saracens only has a certain number of Academy players - less than Munster?
He's told this allegedly by Saracens themselves on their official site.
Therefore, you can't blame Sin initially for being wrong. An official site is meant to be to a certain degree official and correct.

But the idea of what Sin and others (including me) were saying in the context of Saracens officially having a limited number of Academy players is that such a policy would tend to put pressure on themselves in terms of Cap by having so few - ie, Academy players cheaper - more of them means less pressure on salary cap.

Then ---- you guys, that know much more the detail about how the Clubs in England work (some of them! Wink

), put him in his place by saying actually Saracens have a deep cabinet full of Academy players but it's simply that not all of them are declared on site. And the detail got complex on that one but basically it meant that nobody should believe all they read on Saracens official site, that players come and go and site maintenance people are casual about keeping up.

Therefore ---- that becomes even more pointedly a possible tactic to evade detection of just what Saracens true finances are in terms of cap. Sin is asking just how many player do Saracens Genuinely have with them, closely connected to the main operation.
If its all a supposed grey area, then that's only one aspect of Saracens business (and perhaps others) that hints at a climate of cloaking and shifting numbers here and there in a constant state of flux. Flux is a very difficult thing to pin down evidence onto when you're trying to investigate adherence to rules.

by Sin é Tue 19 May 2015, 7:33 pm

This was my initial contribution (in response to a post by Beshocked).

Beshocked, you bang on about the Province's finances but you won't accept the investment that is put into players through the Irish provincincial academies. For example, JJ Hanrahan. He was identified as a 15 year old, sent to a rugby school (he comes from a non-rugby area), played underage for Munster & Ireland (i.e., at two U20 world cups). Northampton comes in and offers him 200K a year which Munster couldn't match for a player of his experience and age. Its easy for Northampton to have that kind of cash when they don't have to invest in developing him.

JJ is just one of many young Irish players who the English Premiership & Chamionship are benefitting from.

I then compared the number in the Munster academy to what was in Saracens Academy (according to their website - 6).

Edit: Now folks - if you stop banging on about the Irish Provinces not having a Salary Cap, I'll stop banging on about the English clubs lack of investment in their Academies.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 May 2015, 7:35 pm

So like I said.

by HammerofThunor Tue 19 May 2015, 7:40 pm

The Provinces don't have a cap though do they? There's not much to say about that is there? But then that's not based on scant information on a crappy website.

by HammerofThunor Tue 19 May 2015, 7:43 pm

broadlandboy wrote:IIRC academy players aren't considered in the cap unless they play so many times for the first team. Which IIRC is why Tigers in the past were penalised for going over the cap when Manu was in the academy but played a number of games so his salary was included taking Tigers over.

I think that was the case but it was changed when the new regs came in to remove the discouragement of playing academy players. Although there is still the case if the players get appearance bonuses they could breach the £30k mark and be classed as full player.

by Sin é Tue 19 May 2015, 7:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So like I said.

I also made the point that if you put a bit more effort into developing players themselves, they wouldn't have to buy in so many players.

Only 50% of Saracens squad are English. Saracens academy isn't up to much if that is all they can manage (and thats not taken account of them enticing the likes of a couple of English internationals.

by SecretFly Tue 19 May 2015, 7:44 pm

So we're back to: AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation.

Everyone take a deep intake of breath............................ and out....................... perfect.

Maybe that's where this one should end. I think we've been around the garden with the mower now four or five times already.

by Sin é Tue 19 May 2015, 7:45 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:The Provinces don't have a cap though do they? There's not much to say about that is there? But then that's not based on scant information on a crappy website.

They do - our cap is not being able to sign any big name SH player who comes available and balancing the books.

by SecretFly Tue 19 May 2015, 8:21 pm

...and another thing! It's not th...............................................

Where is everyone?

Oh they're all off watching the CampVision. I'll leave them be.

by broadlandboy Tue 19 May 2015, 8:23 pm

Sin there is a difference between having a cap & what a team can afford

by No 7&1/2 Tue 19 May 2015, 9:28 pm

Sin é wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So like I said.

I also made the point that if you put a bit more effort into developing players themselves, they wouldn't have to buy in so many players.

Only 50% of Saracens squad are English. Saracens academy isn't up to much if that is all they can manage (and thats not taken account of them enticing the likes of a couple of English internationals.

They could put out a team of players developed by themselves they just choose to enhance their Jaime Georges with Shalk Brits'. In fairness when you look at the players they ve brought through most teams would jump att he chance at having them!

Point made earlier about home grown being cheaper wage wise; to a point but then to keep the good ones cost.

by LordDowlais Tue 19 May 2015, 9:43 pm

Lads, it's pointless trying to debate tidy with our Irish friends on here, they are the fonts of all knowledge when it comes to rugby, and they will not take another point of view for an answer. Wink

by Guest Tue 19 May 2015, 9:49 pm

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 19 May 2015, 11:17 pm

SecretFly wrote:...He's told this allegedly by Saracens themselves on their official site.
Therefore, you can't blame Sin initially for being wrong..

Not initially, no. You certainly can blame him for subsequently choosing to ignore the corrections from multiple posters.

by Sin é Tue 19 May 2015, 11:38 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
SecretFly wrote:...He's told this allegedly by Saracens themselves on their official site.
Therefore, you can't blame Sin initially for being wrong..
Not initially, no. You certainly can blame him for subsequently choosing to ignore the corrections from multiple posters.

Saying the website is out of date is just an excuse. Saracens are not very good at encouraging interest from your youthful players if Saracens can't be bothered to list them as being members of their academy.

by broadlandboy Wed 20 May 2015, 12:10 am

Sarries are now under the same high expectations as Tigers are & very few players go straight from the academy to first team. There is alot a talk on Tigers forums about academy players that have gone to other premiership teams & performed but how many would be in Tigers best 23? With the cap you cannot afford to keep the possibles & also some young players are not prepared to wait for their chance but would rather go to other teams where a 1st place squad is easier & wages higher. Even Quins seem to realise that you need to bring in some "old heads".

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