AP Clubs Vote to Block Salary Cap Investigation!

First topic message reminder :

It's from The Times so only a snap shot:

Exclusive: Clubs block salary-cap investigation

Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches

John Westerby, Owen Slot Chief Rugby Correspondent

Leading clubs in England have voted in favour of suspending investigations into potential salary-cap breaches to protect the image of the Aviva Premiership.
At a time when Saracens and one other club had reportedly been under investigation for alleged breaches, The Times understands that a majority of clubs have voted for inquiries to be suspended, in part for fear of alienating sponsors and fans, and jeopardising their position in negotiations with the RFU over a new relationship governing the release of England players.

I can not see how this can mean anything other then Saracens were found to be in breach of the cap, and the clubs have decided to act amongst themselves and cover it up rather then it go further.

Is this good for the game in England?

beshocked wrote:

I never saw an effort from you Irish to align yourself with us English against the French.

Twas you, sir, that would then be deemed blind to have overlooked my constant wails.  

"Why?", I didst cry, "Why tis it that the English look for the pound of flesh from Pro12 rustics when it might serve them best for the Pro12 slaves and the English overlords together to challenge yonder French on the cost of their Naval Fleet of War, that stood, yet so, pointed Westward with a unfriendly and threatening aspect onto these fair Isles?"

Dids't come the immediate reply from our English friends: "F**k off, yis cottonwool hoors.  Death to thee and thine to eternity, say we!"

LondonTiger wrote:

Now my suspicion is that:

1) They are too lazy to generate the database to store the player details for anyone who they do not need to include in Matchday reports
2) Based on what I have seen with my nephew  they actually have more players than they are allowed to have.

ALL of course coming easily in under the present Cap.

Academy players don't count unless they've played for the full team, all of which are on their website.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You really can't admit it then Sin? Swallow your pride, Saracens and all the clubs develop players.

Of course they do - the difference is that Saracens have six players in their so-called academy and clubs like Leicester & the Provinces actually put resources into developing an academy - i.e., they actually have players in it who generally don't have to have played for the Senior Team (already developed ) and they actually have an Academy Coaching staff (which all eats into any budgets) though Munster's academy is sponsored by Greencore (the biggest sandwich maker in the world) who announced profits of 40m today!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well do you think the coaches and players of the U18 side which won the league are made up Munchkin?

No, I'm not suggesting that at all. It's just that if you look at the Ulster Rugby site you will see all academy players, all above 18, including those who haven't yet played in the first team.

We have the the U18 Club and Schools Squads - U20 Team - Sub Academy - Academy. Then we also have the Ravens.

The Sarries set up seems very different.

Secretfly greed and self interest is at the heart of if all.

Don't naively believe that there wasn't Irish greed at the heart of wanting to keep their cushy existence in the HC as there was greed from the English and French to get a bigger slice of a pie they believe they deserved.

Ultimately each party in question will do what they believe is best for them IMO.

Of course there is self interest when it comes to the PRL too.

I just personally don't believe there are good guys and bad guys - just people wanting to look after their own interests - whether they are big,small,Irish,French, English,rich or poor.

I know that Saracens and Wray are far from perfect - of course they could well be guilty. What more do you want me to say? I find it harder than you to slag off Wray because I've met him - he's a down to earth rugby fan who goes to many Saracens games, has a real passion for the sport of rugby union and has done a lot for the club.

You believe you have a "proper" academy whilst the Saracens "academy" is supposedly a joke.

I personally don't think you Irish are perfect either but neither do I think you are bad.

Just as interested in your own as much as others.

HammerofThunor wrote:Academy players don't count unless they've played for the full team, all of which are on their website.

Yep, its a sham of an academy. Whose academy do these guys learn to be good enough to play on Saracens first team before they can make the Saracens academy.

You couldn't make this stuff up.

beshocked wrote:Secretfly greed and self interest is at the heart of if all.

Don't naively believe that there wasn't Irish greed at the heart of wanting to keep their cushy existence in the HC as there was greed from the English and French to get a bigger slice of a pie they believe they deserved.

Ultimately each party in question will do what they believe is best for them IMO.

Of course there is self interest when it comes to the PRL too.

I just personally don't believe there are good guys and bad guys - just people wanting to look after their own interests - whether they are big,small,Irish,French, English,rich or poor.

I know that Saracens and Wray are far from perfect - of course they could well be guilty. What more do you want me to say? I find it harder than you to slag off Wray because I've met him - he's a down to earth rugby fan who goes to many Saracens games, has a real passion for the sport of rugby union and has done a lot for the club.

You believe you have a "proper" academy whilst the Saracens "academy" is supposedly a joke.

I personally don't think you Irish are perfect either but neither do I think you are bad.

Just as interested in your own as much as others.

The English & French clubs (not all) seem to be driven by ego maniacs who don't care about the sport. That is the difference. The Provinces are run to benefit the Sport of Rugby, not some ego driven billionaire.

HammerofThunor wrote:Academy players don't count unless they've played for the full team, all of which are on their website.

Max Wilkins played against London Welsh in an LV= Cup match. The website might just mention Academy players who have turned out in a Premiership match for the club.

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You really can't admit it then Sin? Swallow your pride, Saracens and all the clubs develop players.

Of course they do - the difference is that Saracens have six players in their so-called academy

If common sense hasn't already told you differently, you've already been shown that there are more than six players in the Saracens academy. I named two of them myself. Why continue to make the same mistake?

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Academy players don't count unless they've played for the full team, all of which are on their website.

Yep, its a sham of an academy. Whose academy do these guys learn to be good enough to play on Saracens first team before they can make the Saracens academy.

 You couldn't make this stuff up.

You have

Munchkin wrote:The Sarries set up seems very different.

The Sarries set up is the same as all the other clubs with an RFU Academy. They just report things differently. It probably is very different to the Irish set-up, just as all the other Academies from Leicester to Quins, Bristol to Leeds Yorkshire are.


U16s - affiliated members, will attend training camps a couple of times a term.
U18s - if still in education will be at their school/college and attend weekly training sessions. If left school the Academy will look to place them in some other educational establishment.
U20s - full time academy members. Train during the week at the club, usually playing for junior sides at the weekend, unless also a first team squad member

Yeah Munchkin the website is set up differently but clearly they have a full academy and coaches. The fact is Sin must be trying to WUM, or he just isn't interested in his own point and wants to make stuff up?

Ps - rather amusing that so many of us, fierce critics of Sarries usually are defending them.

Possibly because most of us use both eyes LT?

Sin e surely they play for their schools or local clubs?

http://www.hertsad.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/isiekwe_on_england_saracens_and_preparing_for_exams_1_4055852

This is an example of a U18s Saracens and England player - he's not linked on the Saracens website but he's most definitely being developed by the club.

He plays for the Saracens U18s team. Duh.....

I've had this with sin é before over TV rights. Can't remember the exact argument but I do remember having to quote the IRB regulations around 5 or 6 times as he kept 'forgetting' what had been said.

I think Saracens have gotten enough publicity now anyway.  They are of course innocent until never proven guilty.

So let's move on to the other innocent side mentioned as potentially guilty?

Bath.  Opinions?  Has it been a known unknown that Bath felt somehow overboard on the cap?  Only English based posters would know any gossip that had been out there (or in there) over the years or so.

Part of the problem is the fact the only numbers that generally get bandied about are those agents put out there, which are as reliable as some posters on here (the unreliable ones). These are deliberately inflated and can give a skewed idea of salaries.

Then you get down to technically breaking the cap and breaking the spirit of the cap. There may be many legal loopholes that they can get around for the cap. But the whole point is to limit the playing squads 'quality' using financial qualifier. Whether you've broken that intention should be pretty clear, but not us as the information is never disclosed. I'd quite like it all be disclosed but then it would just lead to the big spending Provincial French teams to circle.

LondonTiger wrote:

Munchkin wrote:The Sarries set up seems very different.

The Sarries set up is the same as all the other clubs with an RFU Academy. They just report things differently. It probably is very different to the Irish set-up, just as all the other Academies from Leicester to Quins, Bristol to Leeds Yorkshire are.


U16s - affiliated members, will attend training camps a couple of times a term.
U18s - if still in education will be at their school/college and attend weekly training sessions. If left school the Academy will look to place them in some other educational establishment.
U20s - full time academy members. Train during the week at the club, usually playing for junior sides at the weekend, unless also a first team squad member

Thanks, LT. At just a glance I'm not so sure it's all that different, and if that mirrors the Sarries set-up then fair enough. The Ulster set-up isn't perfect although it is improving, We are very good at developing Backs, but not so much the Forwards. Hopefully that will change over time, and soon. It would need too as competing against big money clubs is going to be all the more difficult in the near future, I think.

beshocked wrote:Sin e surely they play for their schools or local clubs?

http://www.hertsad.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/isiekwe_on_england_saracens_and_preparing_for_exams_1_4055852

This is an example of a U18s Saracens and England player - he's not linked on the Saracens website but he's most definitely being developed by the club.

He plays for the Saracens U18s team. Duh.....

I'd expect an academy to have coaching staff. Saracen's 'Academy' doesn't appear to have any.

Of course an U18 would still be in school/college. That also applies in Ireland. The Provinces usually operate a summer camp for them (usually a month partly residential (2-3 days a week) and then they play interprovincials and in some tournaments in France.

From there, they make it into the Sub Academy, and then, if they are good enough the full Academy. They don't have to have played for the Senior Team to make the full academy  

Now, that all costs a lot more money than the Saracen's effort. Tigers seem to take it very seriously though with 39 players in their academy.

I make this point about the Provinces because they are lumped into the same income bracket as the English clubs - facts are the Provinces use their earnings to develop players, not just buy them in.

What are you referring to when you say academy Sin?

Leicester and Saracens have the same Academy set-up. Only difference is on how they report them on their websites.

http://www.englandrugby.com/my-rugby/players/playing-careers/

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You really can't admit it then Sin? Swallow your pride, Saracens and all the clubs develop players.

Of course they do - the difference is that Saracens have six players in their so-called academy and clubs like Leicester & the Provinces actually put resources into developing an academy - i.e., they actually have players in it who generally don't have to have played for the Senior Team (already developed ) and they actually have an Academy Coaching staff (which all eats into any budgets) though Munster's academy is sponsored by Greencore (the biggest sandwich maker in the world) who announced profits of 40m today!

Wow, you really do try so hard to take any opportunity to have a brag about Munster, no matter how unimportant it might be. It's a shame though, times must be hard when you are taking pride in the achievements of a sandwich company with only tenuous links to your club.

Btw, the academy at Saracens has the same set-up as the one at Tigers. Naff website, nothing more. Move on.

No 7&1/2 wrote:What are you referring to when you say academy Sin?

My definition of an Academy would be of a school that provides training in special subjects or skills.

Since Saracens doesn't seem to have any academy staff, how can they provide training (certainly not in the way the Irish Provinces run their Academies).

Leicester and Saracens have similar Academy staff. Only meaningful difference is on how they report them on their websites.

http://www.englandrugby.com/my-rugby/players/playing-careers/

Fuzzy Dunlop wrote:

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You really can't admit it then Sin? Swallow your pride, Saracens and all the clubs develop players.

Of course they do - the difference is that Saracens have six players in their so-called academy and clubs like Leicester & the Provinces actually put resources into developing an academy - i.e., they actually have players in it who generally don't have to have played for the Senior Team (already developed ) and they actually have an Academy Coaching staff (which all eats into any budgets) though Munster's academy is sponsored by Greencore (the biggest sandwich maker in the world) who announced profits of 40m today!

Wow, you really  do try so hard to take any opportunity to have a brag about Munster, no matter how unimportant it might be. It's a shame though, times must be hard when you are taking pride in the achievements of a sandwich company with only tenuous links to your club.

Btw, the academy at Saracens has the same set-up as the one at Tigers. Naff website, nothing more. Move on.

The CEO of Greencore is on the Commerical Board of Munster Rugby. Its a different approach of getting wealthy people to invest without letting their egos run riot or turning the club into one of their playthings.

Saracens still have only 6 players in their Academy (one from the US) who have had to play 1st team rugby to get into it. That doesn't seem to be the case with Tigers.

Any further questions about the Sarries Academy maybe you should talk to Don Barrell the Academy Manager:

https://uk.linkedin.com/pub/don-barrell/b/423/755

LondonTiger wrote:Leicester and Saracens have similar Academy staff. Only meaningful difference is on how they report them on their websites.

http://www.englandrugby.com/my-rugby/players/playing-careers/

All that says is that Premier Rugby and RFU fund the academies (which is kind of interesting when you see an U20s US player (Titi Lamositele) in the Saracens Academy). Are England poaching him from the US?

Leicester and Saracens have the same Academy set-up. Only difference is on how they report them on their websites.

LondonTiger wrote:Any further questions about the Sarries Academy maybe you should talk to Don Barrell the Academy Manager:

https://uk.linkedin.com/pub/don-barrell/b/423/755

I am the Academy Manager at Saracens RFC. I run the academy setup together with one of the best teams in rugby. I am responsible for players from the ages of 13-23. The academy assists Herts, Essex and Kent in improving their structures and coaching setups. I am in charge of the financial planning and budgeting for the programme and ensuring that we have continual improvement.

No coaching going on in Saracens. Someone else is doing it.

All seems very micky mouse to me.

Sin é wrote:...Since Saracens doesn't seem to have any academy staff...

I suppose it's a sign of progress that you aren't saying Sarries have only 6 academy players any more. Nevertheless, you still seem determined not to let facts or common sense get in the way or your opinions here, Sin é. It's not as if posters haven't done their best to point you in the right direction.

https://www.linkedin.com/pub/rory-teague/47/134/618?trk=pub-pbmap

Rugby Fan wrote:

Sin é wrote:...Since Saracens doesn't seem to have any academy staff...

I suppose it's a sign of progress that you aren't saying Sarries have only 6 academy players any more. Nevertheless, you still seem determined not to let facts or common sense get in the way or your opinions here, Sin é. It's not as if posters haven't done their best to point you in the right direction.

My first comment on the subject was that it wasn't much of an academy with 6 players. I was then told that Saracens had won the Academy League and that they must have more than 6 Players. I was then told you are not named in the Saracens academy unless you have played first team rugby

The facts are that the Saracen's 'Academy' is a sham in the true sense of the world, so lets hope you stop pretending that they are developing players, because they are not - they seem to be picking off the best youngsters in their assigned district when they are pretty close to being the finished product. They are not putting any money into developing rugby players.

Sin é wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Leicester and Saracens have similar Academy staff. Only meaningful difference is on how they report them on their websites.

http://www.englandrugby.com/my-rugby/players/playing-careers/

All that says is that Premier Rugby and RFU fund the academies (which is kind of interesting when you see an U20s US player (Titi Lamositele) in the Saracens Academy). Are England poaching him from the US?

Considering he has already has been capped by the full USA team, that would be more than a little pointless.

LondonTiger wrote:https://www.linkedin.com/pub/rory-teague/47/134/618?trk=pub-pbmap

His job seems to be developing the Saracens Global network (i.e., scouting young lads from less well off countries and bringing them back to England to play for Saracens).

Cumbrian wrote:

Sin é wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Leicester and Saracens have similar Academy staff. Only meaningful difference is on how they report them on their websites.

http://www.englandrugby.com/my-rugby/players/playing-careers/

All that says is that Premier Rugby and RFU fund the academies (which is kind of interesting when you see an U20s US player (Titi Lamositele) in the Saracens Academy). Are England poaching him from the US?

Considering he has already has been capped by the full USA team, that would be more than a little pointless.

Better still. Won't have to be released for 6Ns internationals.

Sin é wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

Sin é wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Leicester and Saracens have similar Academy staff. Only meaningful difference is on how they report them on their websites.

http://www.englandrugby.com/my-rugby/players/playing-careers/

All that says is that Premier Rugby and RFU fund the academies (which is kind of interesting when you see an U20s US player (Titi Lamositele) in the Saracens Academy). Are England poaching him from the US?

Considering he has already has been capped by the full USA team, that would be more than a little pointless.

Better still. Won't have to be released for 6Ns internationals.

True, he'll also be able to develop his skills in a professional setting at a time of the year when his national team won't miss him. Win-Win I'm sure you'll agree? The USA are desperate for some good props.

So just to confirm you do consider those 6 players as Saracens academy players but none of the others that trained with them Sin?

The Sarries Academy S&C Coaches are called Dan Nisbett and Sean Vine.


they have a full Academy coaching set-up - but anyone who chosses not to believe that will not be swayed by facts. They may however be amused that they have one coach we do not have at tigers - a Cheerleading coach.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So just to confirm you do consider those 6 players as Saracens academy players but none of the others that trained with them Sin?

Exactly. As I said in my first post on this subject -

''Saracens have 6 in their academy, Munster have 20.''

What Saracens are doing is similar to what Munster refer to as Talent Camps.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/domestic/news/12056.php#.VVslbGbqKCY

Sin é wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

Sin é wrote:...Since Saracens doesn't seem to have any academy staff...

I suppose it's a sign of progress that you aren't saying Sarries have only 6 academy players any more. Nevertheless, you still seem determined not to let facts or common sense get in the way or your opinions here, Sin é. It's not as if posters haven't done their best to point you in the right direction.

My first comment on the subject was that it wasn't much of an academy with 6 players. I was then told that Saracens had won the Academy League and that they must have more than 6 Players. I was then told you are not named in the Saracens academy unless you have played first team rugby

The facts are that the Saracen's 'Academy' is a sham in the true sense of the world, so lets hope you stop pretending that they are developing players, because they are not - they seem to be picking off the best youngsters in their assigned district when they are pretty close to being the finished product. They are not putting any money into developing rugby players.

If that's truely the case (which I think we all truely believe it isn't), wouldn't it be a waste of money to do anything different? I meant the schools around Saracens have produced Farrell, Goode, M Vunipola, Kruis, Itoje, George, off the top of my head, recently who are all on the radar for England. Why is the school system in Ireland so bad at producing players when they need Munster staff to raise the woeful (relatively) standards?

LondonTiger wrote:

They may however be amused that they have one coach we do not have at tigers - a Cheerleading coach.

Don't be shy, Tiger.  We know you have one, it's just that you don't declare them because you're too embarrassed to admit to having one.  The Regimental Morale Movement Coach is I think how it's called in your manly outfit

Sin é wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So just to confirm you do consider those 6 players as Saracens academy players but none of the others that trained with them Sin?

Exactly. As I said in my first post on this subject -

''Saracens have 6 in their academy, Munster have 20.''

What Saracens are doing is similar to what Munster refer to as Talent Camps.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/domestic/news/12056.php#.VVslbGbqKCY

Wow Munster are up there with the school coaches around Saracens! Much improvement needed at Munster!

Is it true (as I read on here a while back) that the Sin é account was a joke one set up by a regular poster for a laugh?

Come on, own up whoever you are! I think they have to be a Leinster fan, to try and make Munster fans look so weird...

Sin é wrote: I was then told you are not named in the Saracens academy unless you have played first team rugby

Untrue.

You were told that the people listed on the website were the academy members who have happened to play for the first team.

Sin é wrote:My first comment on the subject was that it wasn't much of an academy with 6 players. I was then told that Saracens had won the Academy League and that they must have more than 6 Players. I was then told you are not named in the Saracens academy unless you have played first team rugby

The facts are that the Saracen's 'Academy' is a sham in the true sense of the world, so lets hope you stop pretending that they are developing players, because they are not - they seem to be picking off the best youngsters in their assigned district when they are pretty close to being the finished product. They are not putting any money into developing rugby players

You weren't told by anyone that players aren't considered to be in the Saracens academy unless they have played first team rugby. That's another false claim.

You were told that there are obviously more than six players in the Saracens academy - something you ought to have realized for yourself - and some posters speculated why the website doesn't reflect that obvious fact. I know it isn't a question of first team rugby, because academy players have turned out in the LV=Cup. I mentioned that above, so that shouldn't be news to you.

You seem to think that if a player comes out of school and joins the academy, then Saracens has added no value to his development. And yet you have already been told that such players will often represent Saracens U18s. That's the case with Max Wilkins.

We aren't writing in riddles here, so it really shouldn't take so long for the penny to drop.

Cyril wrote:Is it true (as I read on here a while back) that the Sin é account was a joke one set up by a regular poster for a laugh?

Come on, own up whoever you are! I think they have to be a Leinster fan, to try and make Munster fans look so weird...

Would make more sense.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

Sin é wrote:...Since Saracens doesn't seem to have any academy staff...

I suppose it's a sign of progress that you aren't saying Sarries have only 6 academy players any more. Nevertheless, you still seem determined not to let facts or common sense get in the way or your opinions here, Sin é. It's not as if posters haven't done their best to point you in the right direction.

My first comment on the subject was that it wasn't much of an academy with 6 players. I was then told that Saracens had won the Academy League and that they must have more than 6 Players. I was then told you are not named in the Saracens academy unless you have played first team rugby

The facts are that the Saracen's 'Academy' is a sham in the true sense of the world, so lets hope you stop pretending that they are developing players, because they are not - they seem to be picking off the best youngsters in their assigned district when they are pretty close to being the finished product. They are not putting any money into developing rugby players.

If that's truely the case (which I think we all truely believe it isn't), wouldn't it be a waste of money to do anything different? I meant the schools around Saracens have produced Farrell, Goode, M Vunipola, Kruis, Itoje, George, off the top of my head, recently who are all on the radar for England. Why is the school system in Ireland so bad at producing players when they need Munster staff to raise the woeful (relatively) standards?

Saracens are in a city of 12 million and that is all that has been produced

Hurling & gaelic football would be the big games played in Munster. Outside of Cork & Limerick most if not all schools play hurling or gaelic football. Even the school that Paul O'Connell went to would be better known as a hurling school.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Sin é wrote:My first comment on the subject was that it wasn't much of an academy with 6 players. I was then told that Saracens had won the Academy League and that they must have more than 6 Players. I was then told you are not named in the Saracens academy unless you have played first team rugby

The facts are that the Saracen's 'Academy' is a sham in the true sense of the world, so lets hope you stop pretending that they are developing players, because they are not - they seem to be picking off the best youngsters in their assigned district when they are pretty close to being the finished product. They are not putting any money into developing rugby players

You weren't told by anyone that players aren't considered to be in the Saracens academy unless they have played first team rugby. That's another false claim.

You were told that there are obviously more than six players in the Saracens academy - something you ought to have realized for yourself - and some posters speculated why the website doesn't reflect that obvious fact. I know it isn't a question of first team rugby, because academy players have turned out in the LV=Cup. I mentioned that above, so that shouldn't be news to you.

You seem to think that if a player comes out of school and joins the academy, then Saracens has added no value to his development. And yet you have already been told that such players will often represent Saracens U18s. That's the case with Max Wilkins.

We aren't writing in riddles here, so it really shouldn't take so long for the penny to drop.

Quote from London Tiger:
''I already told you earlier that those 6 are just the ones that have made first team appearances - and that Sarries won the Academy League this year. Just repeating an untruth does not make it any more true.''

So what is it then - why are only 6 players named in Saracens Academy. What is the relationship between Saracens and Oaklands?

It's only done by school coaches though Sin not professionals only doing this job. These school coaces are only around the level of Munster coaches they're that bad. You should be thankful Saracens can't be bothered!