Englands' 50 man Training Squad for RWC

by **LondonTiger** Wed May 20, 2015 12:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

England Rugby World Cup training squad (50)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Nick Easter (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

by BigTrevsbigmac Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:15 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Yes Poorfour those that watched Jo last season would have seen marked improvements in those aspects of his game. He has a long accurate kick and his passing was a lot more crisp & accurate last season. His running game as you say is second to none & he deserves a shot.

There were good noises about him all season, but I can only go on the matches I saw. I saw him play twice and he was poor twice.

I think he was named in most Premiership 'teams of the season' that I saw & that was down to his consistency not just that he scored 'the best try of the season' to.

by **LondonTiger** Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:51 pm

I am willing to accept that he played well in many of the games I did not see.

Making Premiership Team of the Season has little relevance though, as usually internationals are discounted due to lack of games.

by Jimpy Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:21 am

lostinwales wrote:
BamBam wrote:Strettle has withdrawn from the squad to settle in with Clermont, Rokoduguni called up to replace him

Good. Sad we didn't see more of the Strettle who was so much fun to watch when he first played for England, but he was an outside bet for the final 31 and hadn't shown anything for England in the chances he had had for a long time.

Glad for Roko. Sorry for Wade...

I'm pleased for Roko too, but he's got to deliver. Whether he makes the final 23 remains to be seen.

by Geordie Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:08 am

Wow poor Wade, he must be right down their list...

by No 7&1/2 Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:26 am

Roko does deserve his chance but purely a selfish reason of loving watching Wade play makes me sad at the decision.

by Poorfour Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:39 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Wow poor Wade, he must be right down their list...

It's not as if he doesn't know what he's got to do to be considered...

by No 7&1/2 Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:48 am

If it's defence then he has improved a lot this season and he offers more than the majority of wingers going forward. If it's defence then what is Ashton doing in the squad.

by HongKongCherry Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:26 pm

I think this is all irrespective as baring injuries Bomber is likely to take only 3 wings with it being Watson, Nowell and May. What's better for Wade, a full off-season or the chance to train with the senior team? Personally I think it's the former.

by doctor_grey Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:05 pm

I think Wade is a tough call. We need the wings to be able to get up and field high kicks in traffic, and Wade is a bit shrimpy at 5' 8"'. But for an impact player with the ability to change a game in a single moment, Wade is as good as anyone.

by Geordie Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:12 pm

He's a gamechanger...like Shane Williams, like Jason Robinson etc.

by offload Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:28 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:He's a gamechanger...like Shane Williams, like Jason Robinson etc.

Geordie, I do think both Williams and Robinson were better footballers with better positional sense. Wade can certainly change a game though. I thought in the Barbarians v England game last month, even though Wade got three tries he was comfortably outplayed by Yarde.

by Geordie Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:13 pm

Outplayed...but he still scored 3 tries.

Any its irrelevant..we know whos going

by Tiger/Chief Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:20 pm

Wade should see the light and go and play sevens, win The Olympics and become the pin up boy for team gb's success! Until Lancaster goes he's always going to be behind more complete players who can play multi positions such as Watson May and Nowell!

Anyone who can't see Wade's obvious deficiencies needs to watch a low light real of him in action this season rather than the highlight reels on YouTube

by No 7&1/2 Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:45 pm

From this season it wouldn't be a long watch. Certainly no longer than most of our wingers.

by king_carlos Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:54 pm

Tiger/Chief wrote:Anyone who can't see Wade's obvious deficiencies needs to watch a low light real of him in action this season rather than the highlight reels on YouTube

His defence is poor but so are our other wingers bar Nowell.

- Watson is decent in positioning but weak in the tackle.

- May is usually ok in positioning and the tackle but has shown himself to falter in both aspects when under pressure. Especially on his own line.

- Ashton has improved a hell of a lot and is now pretty solid in positioning but still isn't a strong tackler.

- Rokoduguni is a very powerful guy and puts some big hits in but is prone to poor positioning, either rushing up searching for the big hit or looking hesitant when he hangs back and drifts.

For what it's worth on tackling, I honestly believe it is something that sticks from a young age or doesn't. You can make someone a better tackler absolutely, you can improve their technique, timing etc. However I don't think it's possible to take a player who is a weak tackler at the stage of their career when they are already a professional and make them a big tackler such as Nowell. In order to make hits like that you need to relish that aspect of the game from a young age to develop a real instinct for it.

People often say, 'imagine Wade having to tackle Savea one on one'. Frankly however, bar Nowell, I don't envisage a particularly different end to that story if he ran at any of our other wingers!

by BamBam Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:01 pm

I'd agree with a lot of that king_carlos.

I'd also say that for me the worst type of defence is when a player is positioned well then just absolutely bottles the tackle, Ashton has been guilty of that far too many times for my liking.

by king_carlos Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:15 pm

I think people pretty fairly think that of Ashton as he has had a few high profile or 'lowlight reel moments' as Tiger/Chief nicely puts it.

However I think most the other options are as poor in that regard but just get cut a lot more slack. I'm big fan of Watson but I reckon he misses just as many tackles once being in a good position as well.

As for players getting in a good position then bottling a tackle. I'm a big advocate of May but his effort on Morisi I think in the Italy game where he just seemed to delicately cuddle the attacker to provide him with emotional support as he fell over the try line was truly terrible.

by Gwlad Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:09 pm

Stewie is following Gatland's masterclass. Lesson One: wingers. make em big.

by lostinwales Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:45 pm

Gwlad wrote:Stewie is following Gatland's masterclass. Lesson One: wingers. make em big.

No he isn't, otherwise Banahan would have had more caps. But lets not let reality get in the way of some more deluded rambling

by Fanster Tue Jun 23, 2015 9:29 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Stewie is following Gatland's masterclass. Lesson One: wingers. make em big.

No he isn't, otherwise Banahan would have had more caps. But lets not let reality get in the way of some more deluded rambling

An interesting question was asked to me the other day...

If Banahan was Welsh would he have 50 caps by now?

I'm not sure of the answer but I do think hes a weapon to have coming off the bench with 20 to go!

by lostinwales Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:42 pm

It is an interesting question. And I do actually believe he is a better player with more of a skill set than he is given credit for.

He might very well have given us some options in the centres a few years back, and I don't believe he is better than our current first choices, but I think he should have got more caps than he did.

by BigTrevsbigmac Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:43 pm

"People often say, 'imagine Wade having to tackle Savea one on one'. Frankly however, bar Nowell, I don't envisage a particularly different end to that story if he ran at any of our other wingers!"

I agree and turning it on its head - Wade is probably the one winger that could round Savea & score.

by Gwlad Wed Jun 24, 2015 1:48 am

lostinwales wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Stewie is following Gatland's masterclass. Lesson One: wingers. make em big.

No he isn't, otherwise Banahan would have had more caps. But lets not let reality get in the way of some more deluded rambling

Deluded rambling? Don't put yourself down Robin.

They have to be big and decent, not huge and still be tackled by Shane Williams.

by Poorfour Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:09 am

lostinwales wrote:It is an interesting question. And I do actually believe he is a better player with more of a skill set than he is given credit for.

He might very well have given us some options in the centres a few years back, and I don't believe he is better than our current first choices, but I think he should have got more caps than he did.

I agree. I never really rated him as a winger - nowhere near agile enough and somewhat lacking in aggression going forward (as evidenced by Gwlad's observation that he was felled by ickle Shane). But back in 2012 (IIRC) he played IC in a pre-tour Barbarians game and suddenly made sense to me as an international player. The lack of agility didn't matter because his job was just to go forward, and his height made offloading ridiculously easy. I would have liked to see him tried there in a full international.

by Bathman_in_London Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:07 am

While I am slightly biased as a Bath fan, my impression of Banahan's England appearances was that he wasn't used in the right way at all. Rather than being an option off the 10's shoulder (specifically I am remembering the dire game vs Argentina when we wore purple) he was played in a very traditional wingers role. I think the reality is his time has gone now but England could have certainly got more out of him than they did.

On who could deal with Savea... I seem to remember Roko keeping him very quiet last autumn?

by Geordie Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:08 am

Lancaster just wants robot like rugby league players.

Every player looks the same, same build etc...can do everything well...rather than a few outstanding.

Its the way rugby is going. The days of a game for all shapes is well and truly gone...

by No 7&1/2 Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:15 am

In the backs maybe, though you still have players like Ford popping through. There's a few fat boys left in the pack.

by Bathman_in_London Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:27 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:In the backs maybe, though you still have players like Ford popping through. There's a few fat boys left in the pack.

It was amusing to see Vunipola quoted as saying 'we have to be the fittest'. I would settle both of them being to pull their shirts over their stomachs!

by BigTrevsbigmac Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:29 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:If it's defence then he has improved a lot this season and he offers more than the majority of wingers going forward. If it's defence then what is Ashton doing in the squad.

Precisely!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkXLdRM7qJ8

by No 7&1/2 Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:29 am

It's all relative when your competition is Ben Morgan.

by Poorfour Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:39 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's all relative when your competition is Ben Morgan.

But Morgan isn't the only competition... There's also Easter, who's one of those rare players who has gotten leaner and fitter as he's gotten older, and Burgess - who I suspect will set a bar for fitness that will challenge the rest of the squad.

by **LondonTiger** Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:42 am

Bathman_in_London wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:In the backs maybe, though you still have players like Ford popping through. There's a few fat boys left in the pack.

It was amusing to see Vunipola quoted as saying 'we have to be the fittest'. I would settle both of them being to pull their shirts over their stomachs!

Billy may not be the trimmest, but to last 80 minutes of every 6Ns game is pretty impressive. Generally played the full 80 for Sarries too, only coming off when injured. Billy V now has serious rugby fitness.

by No 7&1/2 Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:48 am

I was just going for chunky to be fair! Anyone playing internationals has fitness of some sort even if it's not 'marathon' fitness.

by **LondonTiger** Wed Jun 24, 2015 9:53 am

Poorfour wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It's all relative when your competition is Ben Morgan.

But Morgan isn't the only competition... There's also Easter, who's one of those rare players who has gotten leaner and fitter as he's gotten older, and Burgess - who I suspect will set a bar for fitness that will challenge the rest of the squad.

I suspect that Burgess is fitter than billy when it comes to gym fitness, and indeed rugby league style fitness. However when it comes to 80 minutes of scrums, rucks, mauls etc I reckon billy would beat him hands down.

by Poorfour Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:24 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Poorfour wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It's all relative when your competition is Ben Morgan.

But Morgan isn't the only competition... There's also Easter, who's one of those rare players who has gotten leaner and fitter as he's gotten older, and Burgess - who I suspect will set a bar for fitness that will challenge the rest of the squad.

I suspect that Burgess is fitter than billy when it comes to gym fitness, and indeed rugby league style fitness. However when it comes to 80 minutes of scrums, rucks, mauls etc I reckon billy would beat him hands down.

Burgess was making 60-80 interventions per game in league. Ok, that doesn't include scrums and mauls, but it does include carrying, tackling and the equivalent of clearing out rucks. It's a different type of fitness but it's roughly equivalent to what Haskell does, and probably only Wood and Robshaw are making a similar number of plays each game.

Billy's role is different and involves fewer (but more power-focused) plays. He's done brilliantly to get his fitness to where it is now.

But I think England as a whole need to step up their fitness a notch. They need to be able to end games against NZ and SA more strongly than they currently do, mentally and physically. Woodward's 2003 England apparently used to play 90 minute practice games and 11-against-15 practice games as a matter of routine.

by **LondonTiger** Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:33 am

Has Burgess lasted 80 minutes of union yet?

Yes we will want to be as fit as possible - that is the main aim from the training camps.

by Geordie Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:39 am

Is Ben Morgan recovered yet? As he is notorious for his weight problems...seems to take a lot to get him fit.

by lostinwales Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:40 am

LondonTiger wrote:Has Burgess lasted 80 minutes of union yet?

Yes we will want to be as fit as possible - that is the main aim from the training camps.

I think we will be in good shape. It does seem to be an area where there has been a serious amount of investment.

I can't help feeling that physical preparation is going to be a very big deal going into the RWC, as was shown by Wales last time out. Its the one thing that concerns me a little about facing Wales in the RWC, the fact that they will be in much better shape than we have encountered for a couple of years.

by No 7&1/2 Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:40 am

Yes he's lasted a few times at 6 for Bath. He has the engine when he's been subbed it's generally been because Bath have some fantastic bench options for the back row rather than under performance by Burgess or the fact he's flagging.

by lostinwales Wed Jun 24, 2015 10:45 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Ben Morgan recovered yet? As he is notorious for his weight problems...seems to take a lot to get him fit.

That's also my concern. His injury may be sorted in time but you have to wonder about his conditioning

by Poorfour Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:25 am

lostinwales wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Has Burgess lasted 80 minutes of union yet?

Yes we will want to be as fit as possible - that is the main aim from the training camps.

I think we will be in good shape. It does seem to be an area where there has been a serious amount of investment.

I can't help feeling that physical preparation is going to be a very big deal going into the RWC, as was shown by Wales last time out. Its the one thing that concerns me a little about facing Wales in the RWC, the fact that they will be in much better shape than we have encountered for a couple of years.

Wales are likely to be very fit at the outset of the tournament, but the question for me is how long they can stay fit. I feel that Gatland trains his players to a point where they are in such a high state of tune that they are injury-prone, and coupled with the limited depth in some key positions Wales will probably have some vulnerable areas as the tournament progresses.

by **LondonTiger** Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:39 am

Did fitness play a big part for Wales in RWC11?

After all they only beat one Tier 1 side, losing their other 3 matches against such teams. That win in the 1/4 against Ireland was eerily reminiscent of this seasons 6Ns game. Ireland dominated possession and territory but Wales tackled them to a stand still whie Ireland kept running down blind alleys and turning the ball over to Wales.

by lostinwales Wed Jun 24, 2015 11:48 am

LondonTiger wrote:Did fitness play a big part for Wales in RWC11?

After all they only beat one Tier 1 side, losing their other 3 matches against such teams. That win in the 1/4 against Ireland was eerily reminiscent of this seasons 6Ns game. Ireland dominated possession and territory but Wales tackled them to a stand still whie Ireland kept running down blind alleys and turning the ball over to Wales.

Good reminder.

I do think Gatland convincing Wales that they are the fittest team around does have a psychological impact.

On the plus side come the day I also think that we now have the game to beat them all other things being equal, and despite what they say I don't think they find playing at Twickenham all that easy.

by Poorfour Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:09 pm

Also: Steve Walsh has retired.

by lostinwales Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:16 pm

Poorfour wrote:Also: Steve Walsh has retired.

by Jimpy Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:28 pm

Poorfour wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Has Burgess lasted 80 minutes of union yet?

Yes we will want to be as fit as possible - that is the main aim from the training camps.

I think we will be in good shape. It does seem to be an area where there has been a serious amount of investment.

I can't help feeling that physical preparation is going to be a very big deal going into the RWC, as was shown by Wales last time out. Its the one thing that concerns me a little about facing Wales in the RWC, the fact that they will be in much better shape than we have encountered for a couple of years.

Wales are likely to be very fit at the outset of the tournament, but the question for me is how long they can stay fit. I feel that Gatland trains his players to a point where they are in such a high state of tune that they are injury-prone, and coupled with the limited depth in some key positions Wales will probably have some vulnerable areas as the tournament progresses.

With Wales' injury list, their vaunted back line isn't looking so vaunted. And you have Halfpenny and North returning after concussion protocols. Who knows if they really are fit or not.

by Geordie Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:31 pm

Wales will be up for it regardless who runs out for them...and always have skilful players.

Doubt them at your peril....we'll have to be 1000% focused and up for it!

by Cumbrian Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:54 pm

Regarding Ben Morgan:

http://www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/David-Humphreys-pleased-injured-Ben-Morgan-s/story-26743159-detail/story.html

by **Rugby Fan** Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:37 pm

Banahan has looked good for Bath this year but he didn't stand out in an England shirt, and often flattered to deceive for his club.

I always liked the idea of Banahan but never saw him cause any real trouble for defences.

I suspect there are a lot of Premiership players who would make very decent Test material if they were given an unbroken run in the first XV. They would have time to get to grips with the challenge, in the knowledge that they enjoyed the confidence of the coaching team. Banahan might well be just such a man.

The trouble is, not everyone can be given a run. At some point, you have to put your hand up and demand selection, and Banahan didn't do that. You have to do even more when the coach changes as Mathew Tait discovered. He was Ashton's World Cup centre but Johnson didn't rate him.

by HammerofThunor Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:05 pm

Tait also moved to Sharks around the time Johnson started as manager and seemed to spend all his time injured.

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