Englands' 50 man Training Squad for RWC

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England Rugby World Cup training squad (50)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Elliot Daly (Wasps)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Nick Easter (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Maro Itoje (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Marland Yarde (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

BamBam wrote:

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 I just don't see the hype surrounding Mullan. It's not as if the Wasps scrum was particularly impressive.  Competent yes but no more so than other LHs.

Personally I thought Auterac made more of a positive impression than Mullan.

Also what he says about Marler's club form..... Marler was pretty mediocre at club level - meant to be captain but did a poor job too. Too often Quins looked like headless chickens in my opinion. Oh and their scrum wasn't impressive either.

Do you have any concept of what hype is? It seems every time 2 people praise a player (who doesn't play for Saracens) you declare that they are overhyped, a deity or that everyone thinks they are some sort of god

Or that they were 'bullied'.....

Welcome to the hackneyed cliché club.

I think England have shown over recent years that even with 3 or 4 props injured the can put out a front row that can hold their ground at least against other test teams. Theres plenty of depth of talent in the pool and goign into a world cup warm up with pretty much all of them in good shape is pretty sweet.

Argue all day about whether cheddar is better than wenslydale but I whichever cheeses get picked on the day Im pretty confident England dont have an issue with props and its not something worth getting your knickers in such a twist about.

Full back theres an obvious choice : Is Brown fit and ready to play yes or no? If hes not then England really do have an issue with Foden having died as well. That and hooker are the positions Id be most concerned about looking at the squad depth. Theres a right choice then noone else.

beshocked wrote:Poorfour oh the injury excuse. Quins do seem to use that excuse far too often - only one other team uses the injury excuse more. No prizes for guessing which team that is.

No prizes, but then if a team had approximately 45% of its squad injured for a considerable period during the first half of the season, then that club would have every right to use injury as an excuse for poor results. There are certain teams of course, who don't really have this problem because they're in blatant and obvious breach of the salary cap rules. No prizes for guessing which team that is.

Jimpy injuries should be an opportunity for youngsters though it seems to me that the Tigers academy production line has broken down. The current Tigers side is not a team to be feared like the previous Tigers sides were.

I remember when you mockingly called Saracens Saffacens. These days there are almost as many foreigners in the Tigers side except there is not the same quality.

You never acknowledge that Tigers were beaten by a better team - there's always an excuse you can produce from your backside.

Well-past it Saints didn't play Tigers.....

Bambam yes I do

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hype

Perhaps Mullan is a bad example. You're right - it's only some posters on a random forum clamouring for Mullan.

I am not allowed to believe that a player is overhyped?

36 was overhyped.

Russell and Samson Lee are overhyped.

Hype is of course related to what you have or haven't done.

Mullan is largely unproven at international - there is no guarantee he would perform well.

It's a bold statement by Londontiger that Mullan should start if Marler is injured as he is supposedly the 2nd best scrummager in his eyes. I personally see that as overstating Mullan's international scrummaging ability and ability to perform at international level. He's unproven. Perhaps Londontiger is right but we don't know.

You accuse me of double standards I could do the same of most of you. You praise inexperienced players like Slade,Daly and Mullan but if I happen to champion equally inexperienced players like George or Itoje - it's supposedly just Saracens bias.

I strongly advocate Saracens players because someone needs to champion their cause - they are very good and compare well to their colleagues.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Marler is quite comfortably our best LH on last seasons form, International and Club. Mako is promising, but I do not understand claims he was best EQ prop in AP last season. He was mainly solid, but at times a liability in the set piece, while his ball carrying was not as prominent as season before.

Corbs is living on past glories. I would have Mullan ahead of him in a shot.

I would start Marler with Mako on bench. however shoudl Marler be injured I would seriously consider starting Mullan - technically he is our best scrummaging prop and while not a powerful carrier like Mako he has the best workrate around the pitch of all four props. Mullan could have been a Lion if he had left Worcester in 2010 when a lot of clubs wanted him.

I seem to remember Corbs doing quite well against Tigers in the semi final this year, Cole was a long way from dominating and in the second half started to struggle and that with a lightweight backrower in the second row behind Corbs.

Which semi-final was that?

I assume you mean round 22, when until the front row changes happened Saints were pushed all over the place and were penalised such that we ended up with uncontested scrums, at which point Corbs was replaced by Waller.

Why do I always feel when anyone mentions overhyping Twelvetrees they're talking about me?!

beshocked wrote:Jimpy injuries should be an opportunity for youngsters though it seems to me that the Tigers academy production line has broken down. The current Tigers side is not a team to be feared like the previous Tigers sides were.

I remember when you mockingly called Saracens Saffacens. These days there are almost as many foreigners in the Tigers side except there is not the same quality.

You never acknowledge that Tigers were beaten by a better team - there's always an excuse you can produce from your backside.

The Tigers academy isn't what it once was, but it is the subject of restructuring, it is certainly turning out some quality players now. I've no doubt that academy players would love the opportunity to play top opposition at the expense of their more experienced team members. However, you're an idiot if you think that replacing injured first team players with youngsters is going to produce equivalent results - I assume that is what you mean, and if my assumption is correct, I'm frankly staggered that anyone would be so dull as to suggest it. It has nothing to do with the quality of an academy system. If the current side isn't to be feared as it once was, I'd hate to see it when in full flow. If Tigers don't have players of the same quality as Saracens, it does seem odd that Tigers were able to finish above them at the close of the domestic season doesn't it?

Saracens have built their 'success' (limited as it is) on the back of ruthless marketing and management, and lets not forget that along the way, they've successfully disenfranchised thousands of loyal supporters as they rode rough shod to 'the top'. The club's sugar daddies are STILL South African. I'd rather Tigers didn't go down that route, and indeed they haven't - accepting a period of mediocrity has been better than the route others have chosen to take, almost at the expense of what used to be the spirit of the game. And Saracens aren't the only ones, although at least the other club in the frame tried to play rugby now and again during their transitionary period

I have, on many occasions, accepted and openly admitted that Tigers were beaten by a better side. Nonetheless, injuries are a valid excuse for poor performances and many teams use it. The fact that you choose to ignore this isn't my problem. You are very much of the type that has an opinion and continues to repeat, repeat, repeat it in the rather childish delusion that if you repeat it often enough, everybody else will accept it as true. Even, when it is proven without doubt, that - and I'll paraphrase a quote you chose to use - you're talking out of your backside.

Perhaps Mullan is a bad example. You're right - it's only some posters on a random forum clamouring for Mullan.

Please point out all those on this random site who are "clamouring" for Mullan to be in the side?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why do I always feel when anyone mentions overhyping Twelvetrees they're talking about me?!

I normally am

beshocked wrote:

Bambam yes I do

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hype

Perhaps Mullan is a bad example. You're right - it's only some posters on a random forum clamouring for Mullan.

I am not allowed to believe that a player is overhyped?

36 was overhyped.

Russell and Samson Lee are overhyped.

Hype is of course related to what you have or haven't done.

Mullan is largely unproven at international - there is no guarantee he would perform well.

It's a bold statement by Londontiger that Mullan should start if Marler is injured as he is supposedly the 2nd best scrummager in his eyes. I personally see that as overstating Mullan's international scrummaging ability and ability to perform at international level. He's unproven. Perhaps Londontiger is right but we don't know.

You accuse me of double standards I could do the same of most of you. You praise inexperienced players like Slade,Daly and Mullan but if I happen to champion equally inexperienced players like George or Itoje - it's supposedly just Saracens bias.

I strongly advocate Saracens players because someone needs to champion their cause - they are very good and compare well to their colleagues.

Well you are, but posting a dictionary definition doesn't mean you understand what it is.

Has Mullan even had a mention in the media? Its LT's opinion that he's the 2nd best scrummager at loosehead, this is a forum, he's allowed his opinion just as much as you're allowed to state that he's overhyped, but equally others are allowed to challenge both opinions.

I'd agree Twelvetrees was overhyped, but that's in hindsight after seeing his performances at international level (not that I don't think he still could do a job, but won't be the next Greenwood). Mullan has played about 3 games for England, years apart, how do we know that he's overhyped?

The same applies to Slater, Nowell, Watson, Slade etc, all who might have been mentioned by various posters on here, but other than Slade barely got a mention in the press prior to being called up for England.

Saracens players who are good enough are being championed by others. I haven't seen anyone criticise George's selection after Hartley was dropped, he was the clear and obvious choice.

You have taken it quite personally that others thought this RWC was too soon for Itoje, last week went on the attack about potential wingers defensive failings (while conveniently forgetting Ashton's), and now are insisting Mako should be the starting prop despite Marler having a very good season for England. This is why I've called you out on Sarries bias but its hardly double standards

Sad thing is I've only ever said he's ok and suits the team more at present as a stop gap! I feel sorry for the lad if thats overhyping!

Jimpy I don't see any emerging Tigers youngsters fighting their way into the line up.

Sometimes a fresh faced and talented youngster is a better prospect than a predictable/average player. Not always of course but it can be a positive.

I think Tigers could do with re-energising in some positions - perhaps a talented youngster at 12 or 15 if you have someone in your academy who fits the bill.

I remember when Hougaard got injured at Saracens, a young man called Owen took his place and helped his team win an AP final.

Leicester weren't good enough in the AP playoffs - AP positions don't matter - 1-4 as long as you do well in the playoffs.


Oh I know things about Saracens myself - the good,the bad and the ugly. They are far from perfect. I am no longer a season ticket holder next season. Of course they can do a lot of things better.

On the other hand one thing they have being doing well is bringing through the youngsters. They do a lot for the community. The SA sugar daddies are low key. I never saw Johann Rupert at a match.

You talk about playing rugby - Saracens scored 70 tries.

Injuries happen - it's about you deal with them. Of course they can have an impact but injuries can bring opportunities too. Should help improve strength in depth.

If it's indeed the salary cap holding back Tigers then they should advocate the raising of it.

Back on topic, I think Mullan is a good little player, pretty similar to Marler in fact, but Marko offers more impact off the bench.  I do not think Mullan would ever let England down and perhaps is a bit underrated.

Interesting choice if Marler was not available, a choice could be made to start with Mullan first, though not to say Marko is in anyway a bad player and has improved this year.

As I have said before if you have four props pretty much equal, they could just play a half each - meaning they should be fitter than their opponents.

The Tigers academy isn't what it once was, but it is the subject of restructuring, it is certainly turning out some quality players now

Jimpy, that's because Dean Richards has blocked the Falcons conveyor belt to leicester  

Edit: Forgot about Barrow....

Bambam I went on the attack about defensive failings because it's an issue. Don't need to mention Ashton's defence. Surely enough people have talked about Ashton's defence already.

Perhaps it is too early for Itoje but it's still disappointing.

Same with Goode - don't need to focus on his weaknesses because they've been done to death - he is perhaps a bit too slow for international level, he doesn't have the same power as Brown.

I have said it time and again - I want to see Lancaster utilising players' strengths - whoever they are - if Haskell carried well vs Wales - get him to carry more in the next games, if Goode is a playmaker get him to use those abilities etc.


No I didn't insist that Mako should start. I said I would be happy with either starting but for me Marler and Mako are the clear top 2 LHs. I thought Mako had the better club season but I did mention that Marler had a good 6 nations.

Geordie yourself,CB and Londontiger, might be others too.

beshocked, given we both agree that Corbs isn't where he was at previously in performances who would you be looking at for the 3rd LH prop, or would you only be taking 2?

As a 3rd LH then yes it would be Mullan. I think Marler and Mako are comfortably top two though.

I personally have seen nothing from Mullan that suggests that he should start ahead of Mako is injured.

The scrummaging argument comes up repeatedly. If Mako was as poor a scrummager as allegedly made out he would have been exposed a lot more.

I didn't watch the AP final - something that has been repeatedly held against me since but from what I heard - Mako did pretty well against Wilson. Not bad for someone who has a poor reputation as a scrummager. I know it's one game - but I've watched him most of the season and I think he's done well.

beshocked wrote:Jimpy I don't see any emerging Tigers youngsters fighting their way into the line up.

Sometimes a fresh faced and talented youngster is a better prospect than a predictable/average player. Not always of course but it can be a positive.

I think Tigers could do with re-energising in some positions - perhaps a talented youngster at 12 or 15 if you have someone in your academy who fits the bill.

I remember when Hougaard got injured at Saracens, a young man called Owen took his place and helped his team win an AP final.

Leicester weren't good enough in the AP playoffs - AP positions don't matter - 1-4 as long as you do well in the playoffs.


Oh I know things about Saracens myself - the good,the bad and the ugly. They are far from perfect. I am no longer a season ticket holder next season. Of course they can do a lot of things better.

On the other hand one thing they have being doing well is bringing through the youngsters.  They do a lot for the community. The SA sugar daddies are low key. I never saw Johann Rupert at a match.

You talk about playing rugby - Saracens scored 70 tries.

Injuries happen - it's about you deal with them. Of course they can have an impact but injuries can bring opportunities too. Should help improve strength in depth.

If it's indeed the salary cap holding back Tigers then they should advocate the raising of it.

I. Give. Up.

From the 3 I think Mako is the weakest scrummager for me but he's done well this season and had a grea run in for the end of the season wheras I think Mullans best form was up to the new year. Think, or I hope it will be these 3 chosen.

I'm 80% sure that Corbs will be the 3rd prop, read something about him potentially being tighthead cover and only taking 5 props

Bambam I hope that is not true.

no 7 & 1/2 fair enough. It would have been hard for Mako to have a good early season because he was injured!

Injury is sometimes something that is necessary just to give a player a break from rugby!

It helped Farrell too - he was fresh in the semis and final whereas in 2014 he was basically a broken player.

I do worry that with this training being so intense and starting so early might well lead to player burnout.

It's not a coincidence that after almost every Lions tour France won the 6 nations in recent memory.

Jimpy why give up?

Geordie yourself,CB and Londontiger, might be others too.

Clamouring? Really?

I said that he was an excellent LH and has been excellent this season - which he has. He deserves recognition and LT etc agreed. At present he should be ahead of Corbs.

But clamouring is a strong word...suggesting we all smack of desperation to get him in the squad. Not quite.

Also:

You accuse me of double standards I could do the same of most of you. You praise inexperienced players like Slade,Daly and Mullan but if I happen to champion equally inexperienced players like George or Itoje - it's supposedly just Saracens bias.

That's because everyone champions players from ALL clubs. You only champion players from....Sarries and are not happy when others don't see your hype.

It's a good point of player burnout for want of a better phrase. Mullan and Marler have been pretty much ever presents and we've seen it before with the general decline in Coles performances before his injury and for me he's returned as good as ever. It will be interesting to see the differnces and benefits of various training regimes come the world cup.

I am NOT clamouring for Mullan to be in the team.

I am saying he was the best EQ prop in the AP last season.

I am saying he should, on form, be in the squad.

I am saying that Marler would be my first choice LH with Mako on bench.

I am saying I would consider him as a starter, rather than promote Mako, if Marler were injured.

i am also aware that there is bigger all chance of him making the squad should the other 3 stay fit.

Geordiefalcon I like Slade but I don't need to talk about him as so many people advocate him.

Thought overall Ford had a good 6 nations and should be first choice. Again don't need to mention it as he's the most popular 10 by some distance.

Joseph had a great 6 nations but again - don't need to champion him as he's one of the current media and 606v2 darlings.

Someone like Burgess has a lot of potential - again don't need to champion as he has enough supporters. Has less rugby union experience than Itoje but so what I am sure many will say.

I actually would have preferred Ewers in the squad rather than Clark and Wade ahead of Strettle - didn't shout it from the rooftops but again those two players have plenty of fans too.

LondonTiger wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Marler is quite comfortably our best LH on last seasons form, International and Club. Mako is promising, but I do not understand claims he was best EQ prop in AP last season. He was mainly solid, but at times a liability in the set piece, while his ball carrying was not as prominent as season before.

Corbs is living on past glories. I would have Mullan ahead of him in a shot.

I would start Marler with Mako on bench. however shoudl Marler be injured I would seriously consider starting Mullan - technically he is our best scrummaging prop and while not a powerful carrier like Mako he has the best workrate around the pitch of all four props. Mullan could have been a Lion if he had left Worcester in 2010 when a lot of clubs wanted him.

I seem to remember Corbs doing quite well against Tigers in the semi final this year, Cole was a long way from dominating and in the second half started to struggle and that with a lightweight backrower in the second row behind Corbs.

Which semi-final was that?

I assume you mean round 22, when until the front row changes happened Saints were pushed all over the place and were penalised such that we ended up with uncontested scrums, at which point Corbs was replaced by Waller.

Sorry LT, it was the game the week before, Saints put out a virtual 2nd side due to the SF the next week. Predicatble result, but Tigers were pushed in the last 20. But Corbs did well against Cole and got better as the match went on until going off after about 65 miinutes. As I said, that was with a 16 stone lock behind him and a 15 stone flanker on half the time.

Same applies to you Beshocked

Anyone here thinks we should six props and not five, and if only five would Brookes be a better utility prop than Corbs.

Putting people forward doesn't mean they are getting hyped either, just because someone thinks player x would be of benefit and can come up with some explanation it isn't the same. I don't many, if anyone is saying we've got players who would walk into any team or are immune to mistakes or dips in form. With the choice England have it's pretty easy to get 3 or 4 quality players who all have strengths and weaknesses. Certainly from my point of view I don't think the majority mentioned are poor players but you do need to nit pick through as there are very few stand outs.

WellPastIt - Corbs was replaced as soon as the game went to uncontested scrums (53rd minute - when the ref pointed out he was able to play TH, co-incidence?). After uncontested scrums Saints had an entire new (and better) front row and were competitive. Until then they were caned in the scrum.

Hyping a player is not necessarily bad, overhyping is - but generally can only be proven after the event.

Twelvetrees was overhyped by some - and that means people judge him against the expectation that was created, rather than against what he actually does.

Lawes was a victim of this for a while after Stuart Barnes overhype.

Itoje could be a victim in the future as there have been suggestions he is Johnson, Hill and Dayglo rolled into one person.

Well-past-it- just need to mention Exeter vs Saints.

Francis vs Corbisiero was the most emphatic domination of a LH I saw this season.

Londontiger 36 was overhyped because he's never been that good in the first place. Struggled to stay in the startingTigers line up which in my opinion is partly why he went to Gloucester. Inconsistent form for Gloucester.

With 36 the hype always outweighed the achievements, at least with Itoje he's picked up some silverware - captain of the England U20s winning team, LV Cup winner as captain and AP final winner. For a 20 year old it's not bad to have thoses on your CV. Itoje is not the finished article far from it but the potential is there.

Lawes at international level has improved - he used to be the bully who didn't bully but now he's a more effective player than under Johnson in my opinion.

Players change as they get more experience, grow up, and have to deal with increasing wear and tear. Shocking concept innit?

beshocked wrote:Well-past-it- just need to mention Exeter vs Saints.

Francis vs Corbisiero was the most emphatic domination of a LH I saw this season.

Londontiger 36 was overhyped because he's never been that good in the first place. Struggled to stay in the startingTigers line up which in my opinion is partly why he went to Gloucester.  Inconsistent form for Gloucester.

With 36 the hype always outweighed the achievements, at least with Itoje he's picked up some silverware - captain of the England U20s winning team, LV Cup winner as captain and AP final winner. For a 20 year old it's not bad to have thoses on your CV. Itoje is not the finished article far from it but the potential is there.

Lawes at international level has improved - he used to be the bully who didn't bully but now he's a more effective player than under Johnson in my opinion.

I still come back to the fact that we don't have any outstanding 12s at the moment. All have their faults but personally think Twelvetrees suits the system and the guys around him more. It's why I've said I hope Slade gets a chance in a warm up at inside centre as he offers a similar set of skills but is better. The question there is will he be successful at 12 without the experience there in the prem, but as a player I think he'll be good.

no 7 & 1/2 you yourself said that England have very little standouts in the team.

With 36 do you think it's wise to ignore his club form?

How do you know that Twelvetrees suits the system and guys around him when he hasn't started alongside Ford and Joseph for England?

Is Slade better? We don't know unless he's tried at international level. Also it's still not been established what position Slade will eventually settle at.

His club form has been up and down but yes I would ignore it and look at the player in general. Since he's dropped out of the team it's looked a little ragged at 12 and his cameos as sub were good. I'm judging his general game, the style England are favouring and what's been missing through the summer tour, AIs and 6Ns.

Is Slade better? Yes I think he's a very classy player with the correct sort of mentality. Does it matter which position he'll settle at? I'd like to see him tried but personally I'd like to see Twelvetrees at 12 in the WC. That's not overhyping him but saying he'll do for the moment, there are some good young uns to look out for.

Twelvetrees is still captain at Gloucs. They must like what he does somewhere along the way

Why ignore club form?

England only ignore Morgan's hopeless club form because he's been so consistent for England.

I don't think 36 offers anything that others can't.

I disagree too - I think Barritt would compliment the lightweight Ford far better. Defence was an issue in the 6 nations - bringing in a defensive leader like Barritt should help.

Players can play well at club level but it doesn't necessary mean we'll see the same at international level. It's an argument used again and again against Goode.

Slade is unproven at international level - there's no guarantee he'll adapt straight away at international level, plus he's not exactly a big guy if he played in the centres.

36 hasn't done anything to warrant starting in my opinion.

lostinwales I think that tells you more about Gloucester's lack of leadership than anything about 36 himself.

Though I do get the distinct impression that I have different opinions on what makes a good captain to most of you.

It's funny that 36,Marler and Haskell are all club captains because I wouldn't want any of them anywhere near the England captaincy.

I should add that I can't think of any decent candidate for the England captaincy after Robshaw bar Barritt if he could nail down the 12 shirt.

I'd ignore club form as for players involved with clubs lower down it's sometimes harder for individuals to shine. For an inside centre like Twelvetrees I personally would expect his form to be up and down given the things he does to a degree look worse if the players around you aren't playing well. For someone like Corbisiero I would place more emphasis on club form as I'd primarily see his role in the scrum which is much easier to judge (not the scrum as a whole but his part in it). Some positions are easier to judge like that in my opinion.

Barritt is close to being overhyped as people see him as a easy fix for defense; I don't see it he's been involved with England as we've seen similar defensive issues. I wouldn't be that disappointed with barritt starting but I see similar balance issues as we're seen before.

Goode, just doesn't currently suit what England are after at full back, we need a bit more pace and direct running, not his fault.

True enough about Slade adapting but he's good enough in my opinion. He's as good as anyone defensively but he's not going to be trucking it up.

beshocked wrote:

With 36 the hype always outweighed the achievements, at least with Itoje he's picked up some silverware - captain of the England U20s winning team, LV Cup winner as captain and AP final winner. For a 20 year old it's not bad to have thoses on your CV. Itoje is not the finished article far from it but the potential is there.

Its a team game

Harder for individuals to shine? Codswallop. Should be easier for players in a weaker team to shine. They would stand out from the crowd.

Plus in theory Twelvetrees shouldn't have any issues playing with an 8,9,10 of Morgan,Laidlaw and Hook. Not exactly unknown players.

Barritt at least has some form in his favour -helping England to a win against Australia in the AIs and putting combatitive performances in the AP playoffs.

With Barritt you know what you are going to get. With 36 you don't.

We don't know for sure if Slade is good enough till he is tried. It's just speculation at the moment. You say he's not going to be trucking it up - surely he doesn't fit what England need at 12.

Balance is important. Barritt gives you a safe pair of hands in the centre and some geniune leadership. He's fashionable at the moment because people believe that 36 is too unreliable, Burrell is in poor form and realise that Barritt could well compliment Ford and Joseph nicely.


Bambam yes it's a team game but it shows faith in Itoje that he was picked for those games and as captain.

Being a winning captain in my opinion counts a little more than being a losing captain!

Not claiming he won singlehanded but certainly he contributed in all three.

Yes, you know what you'll get a strong defensive performance though I don't buy into the fact he will improve the teams defence and a decent carrying game. I think we know what to expect from twelvetrees as well though. I don't think either could be classed as top of class. Barritts next in line again I understand that and I understand what people are hoping to see from him.

I don't think there needs to be a bulldozer of a centre though I know some do. Slade is unproven yes but I don't think that would stop me giving him a game.

I think this shows we're distinctly lacking a couple of positions.

At 12 we have 2-4 players, all of whom divide opinions. Most of us have an opinion on who we would pick. That needed be the best or correct one, its just the one we feel will balance out the best in the team.

Twelvetrees frustrates so many as he has the attributes to be top class...he just hasn't made the step up. Who knows, it may suddenly click in training, be selected for this World Cup and end up player of the tournament and go on to be a World Great.....

no 7 & 1/2 I am honestly trying to understand why you advocate 36 but I cannot.

Is it 36's England form that impresses you? You say he compliments Ford and Joseph - where's the proof?

At least with Barritt I've given a justifiable reason how we could compliment Ford and Joseph.

The irony is that 36 has performed best with a 12 at 13.

Perhaps Slade should be given a game but equally Barritt must be tried out with Ford and Joseph to see if that partnership has any future.

In those circumstances 36 would not be in the frame.

I actually do think Barritt is the right choice at 12, but I wouldn't be too upset with 36. Burrell would need a vast increase in form over his 6N games....

But Barritt is largely trading off reputation right now, certainly as far as international appearances go.

If you don't get what I'm trying to say by now I don't think I'll ever be able to explain it well enough. I'm not saying he blows me away with his array of dazzling England performances, I'm saying that there was something missing when he was out. He generally has the best set of skills without truely excelling. He's a good carrier, under rated I'd say, he can tackle, he can pass, he has a nice step, he offers an alternative boot we're crying out for in midfield. His biggest issue seems to be trying to force something, a bit of lack of patience or clarity sometimes.

Barritt will tackle all day long, he may offer a good foil for Ford, or we may see old issues which were blamed on Farrell crop up again. I'm sure Barritt and Twelvetrees will both go anyway. I think Slades chance is more likely with the outcome of Cirpriani.

What was missing? Best set of skills? Hard to say that when he rarely used them. How often did he use the boot aside from one good grubber? He's been dining off that for some time. As for passing he's been a bit erratic in that area. As for tackling he's okay I guess but he's no Barritt.

Personally I think Twelvetrees is a frustating player. Supposedly meant to be the complete package but not really delivered.

I'm with Beshocked on this one. England have a group of really exciting backs, with Ford, Joseph, Watson and May all likely to be involved (shame Wade isn't in there as well). Having a couple of players like Barritt and Brown in the mix to add some solid steel and experience makes sense to me. These guys are consistent performers who have been there, seen it and got the T-shirt. 36 has all the skills, but is just a bit too flakey for me, and I prefer Burrell at 13 personally.

Too soon for Itoje though. Participating in the training squad will be good experience but with Vunipola and Morgan certain to be the two options at 8, and Robshaw at 7, the balance wouldn't be right having Itoje at 6, and he certainly isn't good enough (yet) to oust one of the incumbent locks (Launchbury, Lawes, Attwood and one of Parling/Kruis).

Barritt, like many p[layers, has become a much better player in fans minds while he has been out of the team.

I am happy enough for him to start, though as soon as he does people will be moaning about the things he cannot do.

With Twelvetrees there he gives the 10 just a little more time as the opposition know there s another receiver. Eastmond has a torrid time albeit against NZ and it was good to see 36 and Barritt to be fair vs Aus. Think Barritt was more 13 in that game where he tackled everythingt hat moved and got motm. If we want someone to tackle hes our man. I personally want more and feel 36 brings more.

Relying on just not making mistakes isnt always best

There is a danger we give credit to the safe guy who never tries anything risky over the 36 type who throws those long lovely passes that sometimes work and sometimes don't. We need a bit of both.