Ulster 2015/2016

First topic message reminder :

Thought i would give ol' GC a helping hand and try and get Ulster types looking inward at what has been a tricky season and looking forward to next season and how we should improve. Dont have time to put down all my own theories but will do so later. This thread is a matawalu free zone btw!

Ha .. I often wonder if the players know about the forums and ever look. Players who are young to mid 20s its highly conceivable that they used to be posters themselves in teenage years before they got professional contracts.

The thought of some of the stuff on here being read by actual players is a little cringey and embarrassing!

I think if a player cares what some random anonymous person on an obscure internet forum thinks about their playing ability, they probably aren't going to last very long!

rodders wrote:I think if a player cares what some random anonymous person on an obscure internet forum thinks about their playing ability, they probably aren't going to last very long!  

Thats very true but players are still human. I'm sure it doesn't affect their confidence in their own abilities one iota, and if lots of people are writing them off I'd say it just motivates them more, but it's still annoying to see people mouthing off about you from their armchairs I'm sure.

My advice to any player would be to completely avoid forums and the like, but you see eejits mouthing off to players on twitter directly all the time. Remember Tom Court got a terrible time after he got roasted at Twickenham, probably because the media scapegoated him and he had the wrong accent.

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/news/14512.php#.VqJCKvntlBc

Kieran Treadwell confirmed as on his way.

So the rumour mill got one right at last, he should be a decent addition, plays at lock and 6 so as long as he can pull his weight then welcome Kieran.

Hopefully, with Van Dee Merwe, Tuohy, Alan O'Connor and this new lad we'll see Hendo at blindside next season.

Notch wrote:
My advice to any player would be to completely avoid forums and the like

But sure they'd have to come on here to get this advice and if so they'd have already seen the slagging you've dished out

Don Alfonso wrote:Hopefully, with Van Dee Merwe, Tuohy, Alan O'Connor and this new lad we'll see Hendo at blindside next season.

Is vDM staying after this season?

marty2086 wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Hopefully, with Van Dee Merwe, Tuohy, Alan O'Connor and this new lad we'll see Hendo at blindside next season.

Is vDM staying after this season?

I don't think he can. We have to lose one NIQ spot. Piutau replaces Ludik, Rumoured NIQ 8 replaces Nick. So we have to let another go without replacement?

Goodness... I know Herbst is contracted... but you don't think he has asked to get out do you? Ay You would not be a like for like replacement!


But anyway, Treadwell, given his age and stats... could prove to be the best bit of Irish Qualified business we've made in a long time! (a long long time)

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:
My advice to any player would be to completely avoid forums and the like

But sure they'd have to come on here to get this advice and if so they'd have already seen the slagging you've dished out  

Fupp... we're stuck in a paradox. Need Marty McFly to come to fix it

re. my previous comment...

Just remembered Herbst is Project not NIQ, and so it looks like it's definitely VDM who is away.



Our 3 NIQs will be Piutau, Pienaar and Nick Williams replacement? Will it be The Three P's???

VDM will definitely leave it would seem.

First choice second row may well have to include Hendo. Unless Treadwell turns out to be a gem!

The other possibility is the IRFU bend their own rules, although Nucifora seems to have put an end to that. Before he came in it was very much a case of these are the rules (unless you can make a case for an exception) which in many ways is a much smarter way to run things than enforcing the letter of the law against the spirit of the law.

I think you're right that Henderson will be first choice lock because I can't see them bending the rules to let us keep a player who might keep an Ireland international out of the position they want him to play. There's no question that that will help him achieve his potential as an international lock, theres also no doubt in my mind whatsoever that next year Ulsters lineout stats will go down drastically as a result, especially when we have mediocre second rows in the international windows instead of VDM.

I just hope this Treadwell is a good prospect.

The Irish provinces haven't been shown up enough yet, so some genius at the IRFU thinks that lowering the quality further is really going to help the young players develop.

Ulster bring in Rowley, Windsor and Brown because they're IQ. That's the important part of their CV isn't it - it doesn't matter that they can't play rugby. Ulster are being forced to lose a guy who can play rugby in VdM and someone whom Henderson could actually learn from (Treadwell too). These guys should really be able to learn from Brown and Stevenson so no need for the best lineout operator in the League is there?

Heard a whisper about Williams replacement - fits all Nucifora's criteria - Charlie Butterworth... well there is only one criterion really: he is IQ.

What the IRFU have to understand is that limiting the amount of NIQ players is the best thing you can do if you have really strong Academies and loads of young taklwnt. I am completely in favour of doing that when the depth is there. But limiting NIQs when the players simply aren't there is not going to work whatsoever- if the quality of the squads fall, the results fall, if the results fall, the income streams fall, if the income streams fall, the amount of money to invest in the Academy and the grassroots falls.

So if you keep it up its a great example of a policy that does the exact opposite of what its intended to do. It actually is more likely to stop teams from bringing through players. If they think that Nucifora can do the same thing he did in New Zealand and Australia, they're wrong. Those countries are light years ahead of us in terms of grassroots coaching and their equivalents of the provincial sides are competing with other union controlled sides in a completely union controlled system, not against the likes of Toulon and Saracens.

If we're going to commit to doing it the Australian/NZ way we shouldn't be participating in the European Cup. We should be trying our damnedest to get accepted into Super Rugby. Maybe some sort of mutually beneficial agreement with South African rugby. Who fancies heading to Pretoria for an away trip?

If you consider that Herbst and Ludik are both only 1 year away from becoming NIQ, might Dublin allow as 3NIQ plus 2Project?

We don't necessarily need Ludik to stay that badly, but from an Ireland perspective I think it would be short sighted not to gain a player like Ludik for the sake of bend a rule for one season.

This idea of NIQs blocking players is a farce. If the up-and-coming had a decent competition to play in under provincial level, then they would simply force their way into the provinces teams. The current anti-NIQ agenda is completely missing the point when it comes to Irelands failure to bring through talent properly.

Notch wrote:What the IRFU have to understand is that limiting the amount of NIQ players is the best thing you can do if you have really strong Academies and loads of young taklwnt. I am completely in favour of doing that when the depth is there. But limiting NIQs when the players simply aren't there is not going to work whatsoever- if the quality of the squads fall, the results fall, if the results fall, the income streams fall, if the income streams fall, the amount of money to invest in the Academy and the grassroots falls.

So if you keep it up its a great example of a policy that does the exact opposite of what its intended to do. It actually is more likely to stop teams from bringing through players. If they think that Nucifora can do the same thing he did in New Zealand and Australia, they're wrong. Those countries are light years ahead of us in terms of grassroots coaching and their equivalents of the provincial sides are competing with other union controlled sides in a completely union controlled system, not against the likes of Toulon and Saracens.

If we're going to commit to doing it the Australian/NZ way we shouldn't be participating in the European Cup. We should be trying our damnedest to get accepted into Super Rugby. Maybe some sort of mutually beneficial agreement with South African rugby. Who fancies heading to Pretoria for an away trip?

Thats going to be a home game for some of our irish players anyways right?

Some of our Irish internationals could pop off and see their families. It's a win-win.

clivemcl wrote:
This idea of NIQs blocking players is a farce. If the up-and-coming had a decent competition to play in under provincial level, then they would simply force their way into the provinces teams. The current anti-NIQ agenda is completely missing the point when it comes to Irelands failure to bring through talent properly.

Given some amongst us are natural contrarians who could start a fight in an empty room the fact we universally agree that this is stupid just goes to prove what a bad idea it really is!

The big unknown is whether Treadwell is seen as the replacement for Van Der Merwe or whether he will be eased in slowly. It seems that Quins fans really rate him, they just aren't bothered he's leaving because they have loads of depth there. More similar to how we all rated Tommy Seymour and Ian Whitten but we knew they would do well wherever they went.

I was thinking of who I want to come in to replace Nick Williams and I think I know at least one player I'd be excited to see; Jordi Murphy. Hear me out here;

1) He has played right across the back row for Leinster and Ireland
2) He has captained Ireland at underage level
3) His international career has stalled at Leinster as he can't hold down a place in their first team
4) He clearly has the potential to be a decent international if he can get regular game time

I think he and Ulster would be a perfect fit. If Nucifora is serious about reducing our reliance on NIQs then this is exactly the kind of thing he needs to make happen, pronto.

Also would take Wannenburg back for a season in a heartbeat.

Notch, you are spot on, a backrow of Pocock', Henry and Murphy would be super. With Hendo at Lock.

I don't know how Munster got in for Copeland before Ulster when he was at the Cardiff Blues, even I could see then we needed IQ back rows and there was one playing great in Wales.
anyway thats hindsight.

Whats happening Lorcan Dow? Is he showing much promise for the Ravens?

Leinster have 3 young back rows in Jordi Murphy, Jack Conan and Josh van der Flier, they can't keep them all happy think either Murphy or Conan should move to Ulster.

Have to be careful though if saying Nucifora should be making this happen, we also would have to expect Nucifora to be making happen one of our centres move to Munster. (which may be best in the long run for one of them).


On another note, anyone see this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Interprovincial_Rugby_Championship

Ulster too Irish province, scores evens with Leinster but ahead of Munster on all counts, really shows that apart from a brief spell in the 00's the real rivalry in Irish rugby is Ulster V Leinster not Leinster V Munster.

Kingshu wrote:

Have to be careful though if saying Nucifora should be making this happen, we also would have to expect Nucifora to be making happen one of our centres move to Munster. (which may be best in the long run for one of them).

If any of the Ulster centres were to be moved, I don't think it would be to Munster. I feel that it would be to Connacht to partner, and hopefully, build a partnership with Henshaw.

Ulster have had an NIQ 8 for some time now. SO I wouldn't be surprised if Dublin intervenes to put an end to NIQing that position for us. We will get an NIQ replacement though, maybe just not an 8.

....I hear Pocock is wearing the 7 shirt for Brumbies this season though...

Ha!


Seriously though..... If we lose Williams (given his current form) and gave the NIQ spot to a VDM extension. I'd not be too happy. Jordi Murphy is nothing like the Nick Williams we saw in yesterdays match.

If he were to come in, along with a star NIQ backrower, well he would be the cherry on top!

Kingshu wrote:Ulster too Irish province, scores evens with Leinster but ahead of Munster on all counts, really shows that apart from a brief spell in the 00's the real rivalry in Irish rugby is Ulster V Leinster not Leinster V Munster.

Thats why you hear Munster fans still talk about the 'Leinster-Ulster cabal' in terms of selection. In those days, the inter-provincial championship was the trial for the Home Championship/Five Nations. Ulster and Leinster dominated it so they dominated the Ireland team- simple as that.

It was very like what happened to Ulster players between 2000 and 2013, Munster players could hardly get into the Ireland team for years. Ask some Munster fans and they'll tell you it was bias. Ask others and they'll tell you it was because they were, in all honesty, only the third best team in Ireland

I think thats also why Munster fans are so fiercely defensive of Munster coaches and players.

Kingshu wrote:Have to be careful though if saying Nucifora should be making this happen, we also would have to expect Nucifora to be making happen one of our centres move to Munster. (which may be best in the long run for one of them).

This is like socialism in a nutshell; everyone agrees that sharing resources is best for everybody... and everybody decides they only want the resources of their neighbours without sharing themselves

You know what they say though, if you love something give it away. Just please not Olding... please let us keep our dairy cows outstanding centre, Comrade Stalin Nucifora!

clivemcl wrote:Ulster have had an NIQ 8 for some time now. SO I wouldn't be surprised if Dublin intervenes to put an end to NIQing that position for us. We will get an NIQ replacement though, maybe just not an 8.

....I hear Pocock is wearing the 7 shirt for Brumbies this season though...

Ha!


Seriously though..... If we lose Williams (given his current form) and gave the NIQ spot to a VDM extension. I'd not be too happy. Jordi Murphy is nothing like the Nick Williams we saw in yesterdays match.

If he were to come in, along with a star NIQ backrower, well he would be the cherry on top!

Ye but nick Williams is not like that every match. Jordi will give you an honest performance every game

Also Nick Williams has been playing for a contract this year- it's no secret he needs to be motivated to perform and when we extended his contract last time he went back into his comfort zone.

Not sure I agree with that. At least not entirely. I think he may have been affected by Anscombes treatment, and may not have been happy with Doak taking charge. But I do feel that his performances this season are about more than just impressing other teams. Think that's unfair. I think he has affection for Ulster, wants to leave having helped them win something and I think he has responded positively to Les Kiss and appreciates the current game plan being implemented.

I would not be content with him being replaced by a Leinster cast off.

Besides, why the doubt about an NIQ replacement? Hasn't UR already said there would be one.and that they would be 'very good'?

I think that there will be one, but of course I would like to see Jordi Murphy in addition to an NIQ number 8. I believe Murphy is under contract so it would likely not happen this summer.

Nick Williams has produced a top level performance in every game he has played this season, picking up a few motm awards on the way.
Williams isn't playing for a contract now. He is playing for a team that he loves, and wants to play at his very best for that team until he leaves. I understand the gripes some have with him, but I question some of them. My own gripe, last season, was that he was a liability, not that he wasn't trying hard enough as far as his energy level is concerned. I think the problem with him was that he could be too passionate, and sometimes that passion/aggression would spill over to indiscipline. He became a penalty machine. So much so that I, one of his biggest fans, thought it would be better that he move on. He's fixed that this season.
I'm with Clive on this. Murphy is a poor replacement for Williams, if there's any truth in this. I would much rather have a player like Williams in the big games, than Murphy, because when both are at their best, Williams is top.
My only hope is that Ulster sign a top eight. One that can fill Williams boots.

There is no truth in it as far as I know Munchkin. I'm just saying that it would be a good signing for Ulster- and because he's Irish it wouldn't change our NIQ allowance. Only question is whether it fits in budget.

I don't want to start any rumours; I haven't heard anything. I just think it would be a smart move. He would be replacing Reidy or Wilson, so we'd still want to sign a ball carrier.

The alternative to signing a new 8 is we extend Van Der Merwes deal and Henderson plays back row full time. Can't see IRFU going for it though.

Ah, fair enough. I will pull my letter to the Press then

I agree with you that Murphy would be good for us if we also sign a top player. We really need both as a big signing alone won't solve the issue we have with the backrow.

Notch wrote:The alternative to signing a new 8 is we extend Van Der Merwes deal and Henderson plays back row full time. Can't see IRFU going for it though.

I can't see them moving Henderson to the backrow either, not with a glut of talent we have currently, although there is one or two very promising Locks coming through now.

Who knows, maybe the IRFU will see the light, move Payne to 15, Marshall and McCloskey to centre, with Henderson in the backrow?

....and Gilroy on the wing...

...and Jackson staring 10

I think players like Herring, Diack and (yesterday's) Reidy. Are exactly the kind of players we need underneath our starting 15. Next season, Ay You and hopefully Treadwell will join those.

But I still feel that (assuming Hendo is a lock), we still need our backrow bolstered on top of a Nick Williams replacement.

So I most definitely would be keen on taking some of Leinster excess. But I'd rather it was a straight up transfer rather than Nusifora arranged. I'm not too keen on losing any if our backs!

Am I correct in thinking that Ulster are now mathematically out of the competition?

We are. Not altogether disappointed personally. As long as we see the form continued in the league!

That's a real shame but at least Ulster are starting to find some rhythm, playing some attractive rugby and Providing Ireland with the best strength in depth in the centres that I have seen for some time.

eirebilly wrote:That's a real shame but at least Ulster are starting to find some rhythm, playing some attractive rugby and Providing Ireland with the best strength in depth in the centres that I have seen for some time.

You've got to say, there's a lot more to be positive about than negative about for the rest of the season.

I can't wait to see what new way we invent to choke!

Never, ever thought I'd say this, but I wish we hadn't re-signed Cave. He is actually the ideal player to go to another province - very experienced, clever player. Defensive leader. Leinster are currently alternating between their best winger, a recent convert from rugby league and a 20 year old at 13. Cave could mentor Ringrose and also step in at 12.

Just reflecting on the other games that put us out.

Toulon won a try in the last minute last week after clearly knocking the ball on. Northampton got ahead of us after scoring four tries, one of which was off a clear forward pass. We have nothing to be ashamed of even if it wasn't that close, but we missed out on the quarter-finals by the smallest, tiniest margin after suffering our worst ever European home defeat in our first game.

Under Les Kiss we won 4 out of 5 games and got 18 points. I can't help but wonder what it would have been like if he was here for the Saracens game.

You've got to laugh- some people on Ulster Rugbys Facebook page blaming Kiss for us going out. I was as harsh a critic as anybody of the team selection for Oyonnax away, but winning twice in France in one season is more than a succession of other coaches managed in 15 years.

Some people are just so negative...

Don Alfonso wrote:Never, ever thought I'd say this, but I wish we hadn't re-signed Cave. He is actually the ideal player to go to another province - very experienced, clever player. Defensive leader. Leinster are currently alternating between their best winger, a recent convert from rugby league and a 20 year old at 13. Cave could mentor Ringrose and also step in at 12.

Don I think that's short sighted, we are about to lose Payne, Marshall and McCloskey for a few weeks at least for the start of the 6Ns that leaves Cave our only fully fit centre depending on whether Olding is thrown in and how long Arnold is out for

Notch wrote:You've got to laugh- some people on Ulster Rugbys Facebook page blaming Kiss for us going out. I was as harsh a critic as anybody of the team selection for Oyonnax away, but winning twice in France in one season is more than a succession of other coaches managed in 15 years.

Some people are just so negative...

The Bakebook clan are notoriously half-wits. To blame Kiss for our exit is just stupid in the extreme. We've got ourselves in a good place at the moment despite the best efforts of Doak and company. The Franglo cup has served us very well to give the squad a bucket load of confidence going back to our domestic competition.

Some fantastic attacking rugby on Saturday.

If we'd have managed to put the 1st half against Sarries with the second half against Oyonnax we'd have qualified for sure - 18 points was never going to be enough, not getting anything against Sarries was the killer.

I feel positive about the rugby we've produced and with the players to come back/in I think we aren't in a bad place - if we can carry this form in the pro12 we can have a decent run in and look forward with optimism to next year.

You know how it is in sport, it's very black and white after the fact. But if two or three tries had gone the other way in other games we'd be through. Also we finished with more points than Exeter who are through.

I don't see a huge gap between us at our best and the other teams in this competition to be honest. We'll be lumped in with the other Pro12 sides in a bunch of articles about how the Pro12 has failed or whatever, but I can't really remember the last time I was this optimistic about the future of Ulster Rugby. Probably only in Anscombe's first season or immediately after we had beaten Munster away in the quarter-final.

Considering the sheer amount of doom and gloom I felt after the first match against Saracens its a remarkable turnaround. Bit of a roller coaster season and I imagine it will continue to be a roller coaster; many highs and lows ahead.

Here's the lastest gossip from t'other forum.

Herbst out for the season so the Japanese league is being googled for a medical joker.

Another 2 possibles are a Saffer named Siya and an Zimbabwean Aussie named David.

Rumours all!!!!

It would take some imagination to invent a story about a Zimbabwean Aussie named David so I'd assume this one may have legs....

rodders wrote:It would take some imagination to invent a story about a Zimbabwean Aussie named David so I'd assume this one may have legs....

I may have to take credit for that one, I do remember throwing his name out at the end of the RWC but all media reports say hes staying put or going to France

When I put it to geoff a few months back he did say he fitted the bill of what Ulster are looking at, as it wasn't an out and out 8 with a bit of quality about him and quite a few tests though he wouldn't commit to any more details