Dylan Hartley Headbutt

First topic message reminder :

So it looks like Hartley is being hauled before another disciplinary committee for an alleged headbutt in last week's game against Saracens.

Here's a video of the incident:

http://vine.co/v/ebZ2Fen2gHg

If proven guilty he'll miss some of the August warmup games and, considering his lengthy record, potentially the World Cup itself.

Far from being the worst I've ever seen, he does plant his feet and lean in so I think they could claim intent.

Fraser hasn't played in a long while but Slater hasn't done much in the last year either. Fraser is no more injured than Slater or other players.

Difficult to push for recognition when you're injured for most of the season - have never played for England.

Pennell was on the list of possible players but Lancaster has strange logic at times.

Farcical to think Slater will walk into the England side.

Which couple of games? Did Slater play in the match when Bath destroyed Leicester? Not exactly good match practice!

Why are you so damned aggressive just because people have a different opinion to yours?

Especially as no-one has said that Slater will walk into the squad, team etc. People have merely stated that they would include him, or think he may.


It is obvious that Lancaster holds Slater in high regard. After all he was captaining the England team against Crusaders when he was injured and was a part of the training camps during the 6Ns. If he had not been injured there is a strong chance he would have been capped ahead of Kruis this season.

However injuries (and disciplinary panels) favoured Kruis and he was able to show decent form for England. He is surely the front runner for the utility role covering second and back rows. However Slater and Itoje will have the summer to impress the coaches. Whoever impresses will get the spot - not "strange logic"

I apologise if you feel I am being aggressive. I am just creating debate.

I just question the logic of championing someone who has had so little game time. Especially as game time is so crucial to a player.

Perhaps I will be proved wrong. Perhaps Slater will be the missing piece of the forward jigsaw. Best of luck to him if he is.

Attwood didn't bring the aggressive edge to Test matches that many hoped he would. Slater potentially can offer that. Also, he has captained his club side and may offer leadership in a squad which is short in that respect. One club captain - Hartley - is out of the picture for now, while another - Twelvetrees - is not guaranteed to make the squad.

I completely forgot to respond to your comment yesterday Beshocked, but Rugby Fan has pretty much summed it up for me.

If we're assuming Lawes/Launchbury/Parling are the 3 out and out locks selected, I would like to see someone a bit more heavy duty as the 4th. Kruis is very much in the mould of the first 3, and Attwood looks to have the attributes I would prefer but has flattered to deceive, and is also not much cover at 6.

Slater looks a bit more of an old school lock, and has proven that whenever he has been on the field. He may have missed a fair chunk of the season, but its obvious that Lancaster likes him.

This was the team selected against the Crusaders which Slater captained


15. Alex Goode
14. Ben Foden
13. Henry Trinder
12. Brad Barritt
11. Anthony Watson
10. Danny Cipriani
9. Lee Dickson
1. Alex Waller
2. Joe Gray
3. Henry Thomas
4. Ed Slater
5. Dave Attwood
6. James Haskell
7. Matt Kvesic
8. Tom Johnson

Given that the likes of Haskell, Barritt, Attwood, Goode and Johnson etc, all of whom have featured far more for England under SL, are in that side, not bad for someone "well down the pecking order at lock and blindside" to be captaining the side as an uncapped player.

We do lack a bit of leadership, and we do lack some carrying power. For me these are the two chief reasons to give him a chance to prove himself, and why I said I favoured him as the utility lock/6 over Kruis in the final squad, which is what started this whole debate.

I agree with whoever said that if Slater was fit in the autumn, Kruis would not have been selected ahead of him when Lawes/Launchbury were injured

lostinwales wrote:

beshocked wrote:Gooseberry you haven't answered the question.

You seriously believe the situation of Farrell and Brown is the same to Slater?

Slater has no caps for England. Well down the pecking order at lock and blindside.

Farrell just played a starring role in the ap semi and final wins - he's also had numerous caps under Lancaster and a lions tour.

Brown is Lancaster's no 1 full back and has played a lot more than Slater this season.

Oh and should add despite Farrell getting the upper hand over Ford I would still start Ford as first choice 10.

Lostinwales by that logic shouldn't Fraser be in the 50 man squad? Perhaps Pennell? Pennell hasn't played an ap game in a year but so what? He was good a year ago......

Neither have England caps just like Slater.....

When was the last time Fraser played? If he was remotely healthy he probably would have been part of the 50. As he hasn't (and is made of glass) and Kvesic has sorted himself out there is competition. Pennell was at least on the list of possible players. Slater has been pushing for recognition for a long time and has been a very important player for Leicester for a few years. And he has played at least a couple of games and done well.

I'm a fan of Will Fraser, but he's barely played 40 times in the last 3 seasons, one freak injury for Slater is hardly the same thing.

Pennell would undoubtedly have been in the squad if he hadn't remained with Worcester, you can see he still has the quality from watching the Championship games.

Rugby fan Twelvetrees captains his club side - doesn't make him a good captain....

The likes of Marler,Hartley and Twelvetrees being captains makes a mockery of the term.

To be honest I would question Slater's leadership qualities if he was captain when Bath demolished Leicester.....

You talk about leadership, it's about taking responsibility and fighting.


If it is Slater vs Itoje - I would pick Itoje every time. Not because he is a Saracens player. It's because you just need to see his meteoric rise - it's special.

Winner of U20s world cup as captain, captain of lv winning team this season, AP final winner starting at 6. A starting forwar at only 20 winning the AP, can't see that often.

Itoje needs to be nurtured, given more experience. You can talk about potential. This guy looks like a quality player already.

He's also potentially a future England captain in the making too.

People say he's too young - well he keeps on defying his critics. I don't need to talk him up much because he answers the critics with his performances.

beshocked wrote:Rugby fan Twelvetrees captains his club side - doesn't make him a good captain....

The likes of Marler,Hartley and Twelvetrees being captains makes a mockery of the term.

To be honest I would question Slater's leadership qualities if he was captain when Bath demolished Leicester.....

You talk about leadership, it's about taking responsibility and fighting.


If it is Slater vs Itoje - I would pick Itoje every time. Not because he is a Saracens player. It's because you just need to see his meteoric rise - it's special.

Winner of U20s world cup as captain, captain of lv winning team this season, AP final winner starting at 6. A starting forwar at only 20 winning the AP, can't see that often.

Itoje needs to be nurtured, given more experience. You can talk about potential. This guy looks like a quality player already.

He's also potentially a future England captain in the making too.

People say he's too young - well he keeps on defying his critics. I don't need to talk him up much because he answers the critics with his performances.

The bolded is a rather bizarre statement. So if something happened which didn't he would be a bad captain?

Hammerofthunor part of being a good leader is preventing heads from dropping. Also you want your team to fight for 80 minutes. Surely you must agree that leadership is important to how a team performs and reacts in certain situations?

To be hammered in such a manner does not suggest that the leadership on the pitch did a particularly good job but perhaps I am being harsh?

Conceding 7 tries is not one you should expect from a proud side like Leicester.

I would question the leadership on the pitch after any hammering. Rabbits in the headlights....

It's the captain's responsibility to rally the team.

I should add I feel the same when Saracens have been beaten heavily.

I expect you're one of those who thought Borthwick was a good captain for coming out and fronting up with his bollox after every England defeat

I think most pundits recognised that Bath were just extremely clinical, and scored on every visit to the Leicester 22, how often does that happen? Quite a few on here have said that on another day with less clinical finishing from Bath Leicester could have won that game.

Sometimes you're just beaten by a better team, and captains like Johnson, Eales, Gregan etc have been on the end of batterings, its no reflection on either their captaincy or their playing ability

BamBam wrote:I expect you're one of those who thought Borthwick was a good captain for coming out and fronting up with his bollox after every England defeat

I think most pundits recognised that Bath were just extremely clinical, and scored on every visit to the Leicester 22, how often does that happen? Quite a few on here have said that on another day with less clinical finishing from Bath Leicester could have won that game.

Sometimes you're just beaten by a better team, and captains like Johnson, Eales, Gregan etc have been on the end of batterings, its no reflection on either their captaincy or their playing ability

God, Borthwick's after match interviews were cringeworthy.

Mike ford did say after the big win V Tigers at The Rec, that he would take the win because Leicester hadn't become a bad team overnight. Tigers were almost at their lowest ebb at that part of the season, lest we not forget they also lost to LI at home (the first time in 11 years). That should give many an indication of how thinly spread Tigers were. They did win the return fixture v Bath at Welford Rd. It was disappointing to lose to Bath again in the semi-finals, but overall, Bath had been the better team during the season and no complaints. So yes, Leicester were simply beaten by a better team, it doesn't need analysing.

Bambam actually I thought Borthwick was not a great captain for England but utterly brilliant club captain. As a player for England I believe he was underrated because his captaincy was uninspiring for England.

You say Bath were extremely clinical - they scored 7 tries. Were they all unavoidable tries of utter genius? No. I don't think any try is unavoidable.

You can throw your hands up in the air and say Bath were just that good.... didn't look so good at Twickenham in the first half did they?

Tigers allowed Bath to impose their game on them. Bath allowed Saracens to impose their game on them.

Someone needed to take the game by the scruff of the neck.

Good captains might have been at the end of batterings but they might not have shone themselves in glory on that particularly day.

Yes you can be beaten by a better team but you have to look at the factors why you lose.

One of them could well be leadership or a lack of it.

Decision making is of course linked to leadership too.

Your way of looking at it is

Team X beats Team Y

Therefore Team X's player at position A > Team Y's position at position A

You've already been banging on about Farrell outplaying Ford, when I personally saw nothing of the sort, he scored a try and kicked a few goals, while Ford was behind a pack going backwards

Its pretty much a pointless argument because we fundamentally disagree on how a player is to be judged depending on the success of his team.

Itoje is going to be very special but that and his rise are unimportant to the issue of whether he will make the WC squad. He and Slater are probably competing with a few others who offer cover in a couple of spots. Theres a few combos these 2 who cover 6 and 2nd row Easter Burgess who may be considered a 12 as well so part of this will be around the balance as a whole. If its down to Slater and Itoje I think most would agree Slater is currently the better player. Would Lancaster want the slight risk of taking the lesser player for the benefit of his longer term development? Hes shown in the past he s not afraid to do that. The only thing here though is its the world cup and Slater is likely to be around the England set up quite a while too.

BamBam wrote:You've already been banging on about Farrell outplaying Ford, when I personally saw nothing of the sort, he scored a try and kicked a few goals, while Ford was behind a pack going backwards

In the final Ford played just as well as Farrell, despite being behind the beaten pack. Farrell played better than he has done all season but the most significant thing he did was to hospitalise Watson. Wigglesworth was perhaps the most important Saracens player as he was the one running the team. Bossing the pack while at the same time telling Farrell what to do. I reckon he consolidated his position as England's back-up SH.

Jimpy wrote:

BamBam wrote:I expect you're one of those who thought Borthwick was a good captain for coming out and fronting up with his bollox after every England defeat

I think most pundits recognised that Bath were just extremely clinical, and scored on every visit to the Leicester 22, how often does that happen? Quite a few on here have said that on another day with less clinical finishing from Bath Leicester could have won that game.

Sometimes you're just beaten by a better team, and captains like Johnson, Eales, Gregan etc have been on the end of batterings, its no reflection on either their captaincy or their playing ability

God, Borthwick's after match interviews were cringeworthy.

Mike ford did say after the big win V Tigers at The Rec, that he would take the win because Leicester hadn't become a bad team overnight. Tigers were almost at their lowest ebb at that part of the season, lest we not forget they also lost to LI at home (the first time in 11 years). That should give many an indication of how thinly spread Tigers were. They did win the return fixture v Bath at Welford Rd. It was disappointing to lose to Bath again in the semi-finals, but overall, Bath had been the better team during the season and no complaints. So yes, Leicester were simply beaten by a better team, it doesn't need analysing.

You are right Tigers haven't become a bad team over night but they are getting weaker and weaker - no longer making a dent in Europe.

You don't want to analyse the match? The first step to fixing a problem is acknowledging you have one.

The match quite clearly showed that Tiger's attack is nowhere near good enough at the moment.

Bath,Saracens and Saints all stronger than Tigers. Exeter would probably believe they are too.

Then you've got the chasing pack - Quins have done some serious recruitment for next season. Wasps are tuning up nicely.

You even seem to be accepting the thrashing as okay. Where has the bite and teeth of Tigers gone?

Seems like I am sticking the boot in but I want to see a strong Tigers because it makes for a stronger league.

Stirring stopped.

Stop stirring LT!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Stop stirring LT!

Sorry. Hope I am wrong.

no 7 & 1/2 Itoje's rise is unimportant? Ridiculous - Itoje is in the 50 squad because he's an earnt a spot.

You call Itoje a "lesser" player. Based on what exactly? He's just been a starter in a winning AP team.

Slater is not on a higher footing - he does not have proper international experience.

The way I see it - Itoje has the form on his side, he has youth, more potential and more talent. For such a young man to do what he has done. So impressive

Unfortunately Itoje did not have the pleasure of facing Slater but he did help Saracens easily beat Tigers at Allianz Park.

Londontiger you probably thought Ford did well when Ireland comfortably beat England and Sexton destroyed Ford.

Bambam Farrell did outplay Ford but I would still want Ford to start for England because he suits the balance of the team better. Farrell helped assert his team's game on the opposition through legal and not so legal means.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 Itoje's rise is unimportant? Ridiculous - Itoje is in the 50 squad because he's an earnt a spot.

You call Itoje a "lesser" player. Based on what exactly? He's just been a starter in a winning AP team.

Slater is not on a higher footing - he does not have proper international experience.

The way I see it - Itoje has the form on his side, he has youth, more potential and more talent. For such a young man to do what he has done. So impressive

Unfortunately Itoje did not have the pleasure of facing Slater but he did help Saracens easily beat Tigers at Allianz Park.

Londontiger you probably thought Ford did well when Ireland comfortably beat England and Sexton destroyed Ford.

Bambam Farrell did outplay Ford but I would still want Ford to start for England because he suits the balance of the team better. Farrell helped assert his team's game on the opposition through legal and not so legal means.

More talent - based on what exactly?

beshocked wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

BamBam wrote:I expect you're one of those who thought Borthwick was a good captain for coming out and fronting up with his bollox after every England defeat

I think most pundits recognised that Bath were just extremely clinical, and scored on every visit to the Leicester 22, how often does that happen? Quite a few on here have said that on another day with less clinical finishing from Bath Leicester could have won that game.

Sometimes you're just beaten by a better team, and captains like Johnson, Eales, Gregan etc have been on the end of batterings, its no reflection on either their captaincy or their playing ability

God, Borthwick's after match interviews were cringeworthy.

Mike ford did say after the big win V Tigers at The Rec, that he would take the win because Leicester hadn't become a bad team overnight. Tigers were almost at their lowest ebb at that part of the season, lest we not forget they also lost to LI at home (the first time in 11 years). That should give many an indication of how thinly spread Tigers were. They did win the return fixture v Bath at Welford Rd. It was disappointing to lose to Bath again in the semi-finals, but overall, Bath had been the better team during the season and no complaints. So yes, Leicester were simply beaten by a better team, it doesn't need analysing.

You are right Tigers haven't become a bad team over night but they are getting weaker and weaker - no longer making a dent in Europe.

You don't want to analyse the match?  The first step to fixing a problem is acknowledging you have one.

The match quite clearly showed that Tiger's attack is nowhere near good enough at the moment.

Bath,Saracens and Saints all stronger than Tigers. Exeter would probably believe they are too.

Then you've got the chasing pack - Quins have done some serious recruitment for next season. Wasps are tuning up nicely.

You even seem to be accepting the thrashing as okay. Where has the bite and teeth of Tigers gone?

Seems like I am sticking the boot in but I want to see a strong Tigers because it makes for a stronger league.

They did not improve this season, they have not got weaker. Other teams did make progress and overtook them. They still finished 3rd in the league. Leicester did the double of Exeter this year - how many teams won away at Sandy Park? How many teams did the double of Exeter? Saracens? I sincerely doubt Rob Baxter thinks Exeter are 'better' than Tigers, although he would not approach a match with them expecting to lose - that isn't how it works.

I did not say that the loss needed analysing, I said that the fact that Bath were a better team overall this season did not need analysing. nobody said the big loss was acceptable.... You really must think before you jump up and down ....

Quins can only improve can't they? Tigers haven't made any big signings, but they're managing their squad shrewdly - it might be a couple of years before they're back in the true sense, but believe me, they will be - and within the financial rules. Until the season begins, we cannot comment on how we think they will perform.

Europe is an interesting one and it is an area where Leicester, once dominant, have struggled in recent years. However, how many English teams can honestly say they've made a 'dent' in Europe since the French have begun to dominate with their very large chequebooks? Saracens have a bottomless pit of money - why haven't they won it yet?

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 Itoje's rise is unimportant? Ridiculous - Itoje is in the 50 squad because he's an earnt a spot.

You call Itoje a "lesser" player. Based on what exactly? He's just been a starter in a winning AP team.

Slater is not on a higher footing - he does not have proper international experience.

The way I see it - Itoje has the form on his side, he has youth, more potential and more talent. For such a young man to do what he has done. So impressive

Unfortunately Itoje did not have the pleasure of facing Slater but he did help Saracens easily beat Tigers at Allianz Park.

Londontiger you probably thought Ford did well when Ireland comfortably beat England and Sexton destroyed Ford.

Bambam Farrell did outplay Ford but I would still want Ford to start for England because he suits the balance of the team better. Farrell helped assert his team's game on the opposition through legal and not so legal means.

His rise isunimportant as it doesnt matter where hes come from but what he can do now. Itoje is impressive you ll struggle to find anyone who disagrees.

Being only 20 years old, having won the England U20s as captain,won the LV cup as captain, the AP final as a starter.

He's 6 years younger than Slater and he's already at the same level.

It can take years for players to be good enough for international level but Itoje has already shown he can play at a high club level and could keep on his upward trajectory.

Being the only team to beat Toulon in the RCC isn't making a dent?

beshocked wrote:Being only 20 years old, having won the England U20s as captain,won the LV cup as captain, the AP final as a starter.

He's 6 years younger than Slater and he's already at the same level.

It can take years for players to be good enough for international level but Itoje has already shown he can play at a high club level and could keep on his upward trajectory.

Based on what exactly

beshocked wrote:Rugby fan Twelvetrees captains his club side - doesn't make him a good captain....

The likes of Marler,Hartley and Twelvetrees being captains makes a mockery of the term.

I'm with you all the way on that. I've long worried about the lack of leadership in the squad, especially if Robshaw goes down. I don't think Twelvetrees showed authority at Gloucester but I used him as an example to show how short we are.

I thought Haskell might have matured but wasn't impressed with his club leadership at the end of the season.

I am not arguing for Slater over Itoje, but I am suggesting his authority will count in his favour if he shows it in training. It's also a consideration which might help Burgess put his case. I think it will give Baritt an edge, because he is often seen as a defensive lynchpin.

broadlandboy wrote:Being the only team to beat Toulon in the RCC isn't making a dent?

To be fair, it was a good win in an otherwise uninspiring campaign.

The English clubs that progressed past the 1/4 Finals went out with a whimper, no English team has made a 'dent' in Europe for quite a while. Tigers have at least won it more than once.

beshocked wrote:Being only 20 years old, having won the England U20s as captain,won the LV cup as captain, the AP final as a starter.

He's 6 years younger than Slater and he's already at the same level.

It can take years for players to be good enough for international level but Itoje has already shown he can play at a high club level and could keep on his upward trajectory.

Yup. Ive said before hes goingt o be special and I wasnt being original.

Well no it's not - did Leicester knock out Toulon? No.

Did Leicester make the quarter finals? No

In previous seasons Leicester not making the quarter finals would be something of an upset.

Jimpy you keep going on about 3rd - with the playoff system as it is - doesn't matter if you come 1st by 15 points or just scrape into 4th - it's those semi finals and final that matter.

Yes Bath have been better than Tigers but it doesn't mean that the gulf in scoreline should be that wide.

2nd vs 3rd should be a close contest.

Saracens haven't won it because of the French cheque books you mention.

I just look at the Tigers squad and haven't seen the likes of Murphy and A.Tuilagi being replaced.

beshocked wrote:Bambam Farrell did outplay Ford but I would still want Ford to start for England because he suits the balance of the team better. Farrell helped assert his team's game on the opposition through legal and not so legal means.

For someone who claimed not to have seen the game how do you know?

From previous dealings of 'outplayed' its going to mean scored or set up more triesif you re a fly half. Actual performance doesnt matter. See also Goode outplaying Ford.

beshocked wrote:Hammerofthunor part of being a good leader is preventing heads from dropping. Also you want your team to fight for 80 minutes. Surely you must agree that leadership is important to how a team performs and reacts in certain situations?

He wasn't captain. You said if he was captain he's clearly not very good at it. But he wasn't, so it was a pointless point.

beshocked wrote:Well no it's not - did Leicester knock out Toulon? No.

Did Leicester make the quarter finals? No

In previous seasons Leicester not making the quarter finals would be something of an upset.

Jimpy you keep going on about 3rd - with the playoff system as it is - doesn't matter if you come 1st by 15 points or just scrape into 4th - it's those semi finals and final that matter.

Yes Bath have been better than Tigers but it doesn't mean that the gulf in scoreline should be that wide.

2nd vs 3rd should be a close contest.

Saracens haven't won it because of the French cheque books you mention.

I just look at the Tigers squad and haven't seen the likes of Murphy and A.Tuilagi being replaced.

Ha! Now that's irony.....

Murphy & Tuilagi? Christ, that was years ago - Murphy is still at the club in a coaching capacity. Leicester lack coherence in the back line but its not for lack of quality, most AP sides would like to have Tigers' backline I would think. A Mauger should be able to make a difference there.

If Manu comes back fixed and manages to last the season that in itself will help a good deal. (Big if mind)

no 7 & 1/2 it's up to me to add some realism to these forums. You still think Ford did not get outplayed by Goode - pure delusion.....

Probably thought that Ford outplayed Sexton when Sexton was man of the match against England in the 6 nations....

Ford is not a deity, he does not play well in every single game. Bath and England have not been all conquering with him at the helm. Would be nice if he was - would certainly prove me wrong.

He's good but he has been outperformed on occasions. The likes of Farrell,Goode and Sexton have done this to him.

It doesn't necessarily mean Ford was bad, it's just his opposite number was better, yes perhaps circumstances like a better performing pack helped but it doesn't change that the opposite numbers did better.

Londontiger I listened plus Farrell got the man of the match.

Rugby fan I don't disagree that leadership is an issue but both Slater and Itoje lack international experience.

Jimpy I would hardly say a battling away loss to Clermont after beating Racing Metro away in the 1/4 finals is going out with a whimper.... each to their own I guess.

Farrell wasn't even the best back on his team, forget man of the match

And  at you being the one to add realism

BamBam wrote:Farrell wasn't even the best back on his team, forget man of the match

He should have been off for at least ten minutes - a retrospective yellow card proves my point.

Hackneyed cliché of the month:

'Deity'

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 it's up to me to add some realism to these forums. You still think Ford did not get outplayed by Goode - pure delusion.....

Probably thought that Ford outplayed Sexton when Sexton was man of the match against England in the 6 nations....

Ford is not a deity, he does not play well in every single game. Bath and England have not been all conquering with him at the helm. Would be nice if he was - would certainly prove me wrong.

He's good but he has been outperformed on occasions. The likes of Farrell,Goode and Sexton have done this to him.

It doesn't necessarily mean Ford was bad, it's just his opposite number was better, yes perhaps circumstances like a better performing pack helped but it doesn't change that the opposite numbers did better.

Londontiger I listened plus Farrell got the man of the match.

Rugby fan I don't disagree that leadership is an issue but both Slater and Itoje lack international experience.

Jimpy I would hardly say a battling away loss to Clermont after beating Racing Metro away in the 1/4 finals is going out with a whimper.... each to their own I guess.

And of course a healthy dose of modesty. Goode did nothing that day which was better than Ford bar his place kicking. Farrel did nothing better than ford in the final and should have been carded. I was sayingh ow Sexton was in my eyes the best 10 in the worls before the England match and the only reason we were in the game was because he went off injured. Of course people have off days so perhaps we should tryt o judge players on their abilities?

beshocked wrote:...I don't disagree that leadership is an issue but both Slater and Itoje lack international experience..

Who among our more capped players do you see as the necessary leadership material? Halfbacks are usually vocal but I haven't seen anything about Ford, Farrell, Youngs etc to make me think they can hold a referee's attention for the right reasons.

I'm not suggesting Slater or Itoje are the answer, but I'm fairly certain that a lot of our squad are more likely to look for leadership from others than provide it themselves.

Bambam you don't need to agree with me but generally I am more right than wrong.

Jimpy We can talk about ifs and buts but Farrell did get man of the match and he didn't get YCed.

I would agree he was lucky but he made the most of it. Opportunistic would be a good word.

Most AP sides would want a Tigers backline? Like who?

Your try count was not impressive at all.

beshocked wrote:Bambam you don't need to agree with me but generally I am more right than wrong.

Jimpy  We can talk about ifs and buts but Farrell did get man of the match and he didn't get YCed.

I would agree he was lucky but he made the most of it. Opportunistic would be a good word.

Most AP sides would want a Tigers backline? Like who?

Your try count was not impressive at all.

And what on Earth are you basing that on?

beshocked wrote:Bambam you don't need to agree with me but generally I am more right than wrong.

BamBam wrote:

beshocked wrote:Bambam you don't need to agree with me but generally I am more right than wrong.

Did he really say that?

beshocked wrote:Bambam you don't need to agree with me but generally I am more right than wrong.

Jimpy  We can talk about ifs and buts but Farrell did get man of the match and he didn't get YCed.

I would agree he was lucky but he made the most of it. Opportunistic would be a good word.

Most AP sides would want a Tigers backline? Like who?

Your try count was not impressive at all.

Oh I dunno, who's that that guy that plays for England? Oh yeah, Ben Youngs - hey, that M Tuilagi isn't too shabby, Tait, Allen and some rubbish international called Goneva.

Didn't say quality is an issue - coherence has been.

no 7 & 1/2 you're delusional. Both Farrell and Goode won the h2h battle whether you believe it or not. Ford was bullied. Just like vs Ireland.

Of course a player is allowed an off day but as a fan you have to acknowledge that Ford is not a deity.

Rugby fan I agree - it's a real weakness. You're right perhaps Slater or Itoje will give us an answer. Leadership is something England need. I would say in the backline Barritt is the closest England have but it's best to have a forward captain IMO plus Barritt is not exactly everyone's cup of tea.

Hackneyed cliché of the month part 2:

'Deity'

I don't believe in deities so that part is easy. When you said Farrell won the h2h do you mean in the final? If so you are simply wrong (although this is all opinion and I'm not arrogate enough to say mine is 'right', never mind most of the time).

And the Goode one, do mean that game when Goode was at 10 and the entire Saracens pack munched the Bath one, putting Ford under immense pressure (which he dealt with pretty well in open play) and gave Goode an armchair ride? This is getting like the 'wingers who score more tries are better', a rather simplistic view that completely ignores that this is a team game.