Dylan Hartley Headbutt

by madmaccas Tue 26 May 2015, 6:37 pm

First topic message reminder :

So it looks like Hartley is being hauled before another disciplinary committee for an alleged headbutt in last week's game against Saracens.

Here's a video of the incident:

http://vine.co/v/ebZ2Fen2gHg

If proven guilty he'll miss some of the August warmup games and, considering his lengthy record, potentially the World Cup itself.

Far from being the worst I've ever seen, he does plant his feet and lean in so I think they could claim intent.

by SecretFly Wed 27 May 2015, 10:40 am

GeordieFalcon wrote: This brings into the question...should he be starting for us anyway. Should it be Youngs?

So you're trying to get rid of him and this is a possible nice excuse to do so?

Shameful Geordie. Wink

Sure that's even worse than us Non-English hounders hounding the poor chap for fun!

by Poorfour Wed 27 May 2015, 10:42 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
ebop wrote:Rugby Fan, the way you said that made it sound like there are heaps of rugby players 'leading with their heads' out there that are being ignored by referees and the citing commissioner. But because it's Hartley, he'll get nicked. Was that the gist of it? Because if I'm honest, I don't see too many players doing this kind of thing. The last one I saw was Etzebeth for brushing his head up to another player and he got seriously done for it iirc.

You're right, I wasn't particularly clear. I don't think this incident warrants a punishment - I suspect you might disagree - but whereas I might leap to another player's defence, I'm not really inclined to do so with Hartley anymore.

If he does pick up a ban, and if that does put him beyond the pale for Lancaster, then I'll feel disappointed for the player but I won't feel as if any great injustice has been done.

Hartley's certainly used up whatever goodwill most people have towards him. I for one am fairly happy for the cards to fall as they will. There are plenty of English hookers who would relish the call-up if he does get banned and dropped.

That said, I think he is sometimes in part the victim of his own reputation. It still rankles that in the Ferris incident no-one in the disciplinary procedure seemed remotely interested in asking or doing anything about why Ferris's finger was anywhere near Hartley's mouth in the first place, let alone causing "discomfort" by pulling on it.

by Geordie Wed 27 May 2015, 10:44 am

Jimpy wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I always think these ones are funny threads.

If he's your player you defend, but every other country will have a go.

Same with players like Bakkies etc.

Hartleys England discipline is better than his club as has been mentioned before. The problem is he knows he is always being watched so its a bit thick to keep getting caught.

The bigger problem is that for the last few years Hartleys form has been electric for England...I would safely put him as the best in the world....but this season I don't believe Hartley has been anywhere near that level. This brings into the question...should he be starting for us anyway. Should it be Youngs?

Youngs carries well, but his line-out stats are not as good as Hartley's. Hartley has good line-out stats, but doesn't carry as well.

For me, you've got to win your set piece every time - so Hartley starts ahead of Youngs.

Who else have we got that could match either player really.

I agree totally Jimpy ...but im not sure Hartley has been near his best in the set pieces.

by Geordie Wed 27 May 2015, 10:49 am

SecretFly wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote: This brings into the question...should he be starting for us anyway. Should it be Youngs?

So you're trying to get rid of him and this is a possible nice excuse to do so?

Shameful Geordie. Sure that's even worse than us Non-English hounders hounding the poor chap for fun!

on form Hartley is still ahead of the rest...Youngs is closing the gap and I think Jamie George is really starting to make a challenge as well....however...Hartleys strengths are his set piece , breakdown etc. He hasn't looked up to scratch this season for England and when you take that away his carrying etc isn't good enough.

It'll be interesting to see how their form is in October and which one gets picked. If Jamie George keeps up this advancement he could be a dark horse for that spot...carries, scrums, a big unit....

by Cyril Wed 27 May 2015, 10:51 am

Apparently some Ulster scouts were watching the game and were initially impressed by what they saw. However, when they got back to watch the video, they decided it wasn't a proper headbutt and Hartley probably wouldn't fit into their culture.

by **George Carlin** Wed 27 May 2015, 11:05 am

Cyril wrote:Apparently some Ulster scouts were watching the game and were initially impressed by what they saw. However, when they got back to watch the video, they decided it wasn't a proper headbutt and Hartley probably wouldn't fit into their culture.

by Barney McGrew did it Wed 27 May 2015, 11:24 am

I'm just glad he seems to have his mojo back, it's what we've all been looking for this last year.

That he can be so entertaining as well is just an added bonus.

And I checked out the video, looks like no-one died (altho JG might have picked up a light bruise to the shoulder). So that's all good then.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 27 May 2015, 11:27 am

Hartley will have to hope that the disciplinary panel see nothing in it, as if they do ban him surely that will be his England career over?

by No 7&1/2 Wed 27 May 2015, 11:29 am

Would have thought so LT.

by BamBam Wed 27 May 2015, 11:32 am

Remember quite a few England fans on here and elsewhere wondering whether now he'd become more disciplined he'd lost the extra "edge" that made him the player he was

Can't have it both ways!

I'd say if he gets off scot free he's been pretty lucky

by **rodders** Wed 27 May 2015, 11:40 am

I didn't think it was that bad to be honest - a penalty definitely, yellow card max - if that's classed as a head butt then it takes any confrontation out of the game.

If an Irish player who missed the RWC over that I wouldn't be happy - mind you its not like Hartley has the best disciplinary record to stand to him.

by offload Wed 27 May 2015, 11:40 am

Jimpy wrote:
offload wrote:Not much in it, but he does make contact with his head. This lad has a self destruct button and a learning difficulty. What a tool - Lancaster must be fuming.

Here we go again....

Exactly where do you think we are going again..? I'm simply pointing out the bl***ing obvious. Surely difficult to argue that Hartley's a good example of someone who learns from his mistakes !

by Cyril Wed 27 May 2015, 12:12 pm

George Carlin wrote:
Cyril wrote:Apparently some Ulster scouts were watching the game and were initially impressed by what they saw. However, when they got back to watch the video, they decided it wasn't a proper headbutt and Hartley probably wouldn't fit into their culture.

Just joining in the 'banter' Wink

I assume no-one is exempt.

I was thinking Hartley had been a bit too quiet recently. He was due a bit of an incident.

by **George Carlin** Wed 27 May 2015, 12:13 pm

Cyril wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
Cyril wrote:Apparently some Ulster scouts were watching the game and were initially impressed by what they saw. However, when they got back to watch the video, they decided it wasn't a proper headbutt and Hartley probably wouldn't fit into their culture.
Just joining in the 'banter' I assume no-one is exempt.

I was thinking Hartley had been a bit too quiet recently. He was due a bit of an incident.

FACT.

by Jimpy Wed 27 May 2015, 12:16 pm

offload wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
offload wrote:Not much in it, but he does make contact with his head. This lad has a self destruct button and a learning difficulty. What a tool - Lancaster must be fuming.

Here we go again....

Exactly where do you think we are going again..? I'm simply pointing out the bl***ing obvious. Surely difficult to argue that Hartley's a good example of someone who learns from his mistakes !

I know what I and probably most others would associate the term 'learning difficulty' with.

by SecretFly Wed 27 May 2015, 12:27 pm

George Carlin wrote:
Cyril wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
Cyril wrote:Apparently some Ulster scouts were watching the game and were initially impressed by what they saw. However, when they got back to watch the video, they decided it wasn't a proper headbutt and Hartley probably wouldn't fit into their culture.
Just joining in the 'banter' I assume no-one is exempt.

I was thinking Hartley had been a bit too quiet recently. He was due a bit of an incident.
FACT.

He's getting his quota of Bad Boy stuff out of the way and out of his system before the WC run-in?

Tactically smart! Maybe Lancs is behind it. "Get it out of your system now - I want you back with the halo before June! No excuses."

by **LondonTiger** Wed 27 May 2015, 12:28 pm

offload wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
offload wrote:Not much in it, but he does make contact with his head. This lad has a self destruct button and a learning difficulty. What a tool - Lancaster must be fuming.

Here we go again....

Exactly where do you think we are going again..? I'm simply pointing out the bl***ing obvious. Surely difficult to argue that Hartley's a good example of someone who learns from his mistakes !

If you had stated he had difficulty leaning from his mistakes - you would have made a valid point.

However you stated he had "a learning difficulty" perhaps just a poor choice of words but you are by saying that stating he has a disability. On boards like this it becomes second nature to assume that people are being deliberately insulting rather than just making a poor cjhoice of words

by SecretFly Wed 27 May 2015, 12:32 pm

I have a disability. I can't fly a plane. And that annoys me.

Even 'disability' is an over-precious word stolen by some overly PC people who want to make it exclusive to certain medical conditions.

by Jimpy Wed 27 May 2015, 12:40 pm

SecretFly wrote:I have a disability. I can't fly a plane. And that annoys me.

Even 'disability' is an over-precious word stolen by some overly PC people who want to make it exclusive to certain medical conditions.

How do you know? Have you tried? There's a difference in not being able to because you lack aptitude for the skill, and not being able to do it because you have a mental handicap. Having a 'learning difficulty' is now a widely accepted description for someone who is mentally handicapped.

by **rodders** Wed 27 May 2015, 12:41 pm

Cyril wrote:Apparently some Ulster scouts were watching the game and were initially impressed by what they saw. However, when they got back to watch the video, they decided it wasn't a proper headbutt and Hartley probably wouldn't fit into their culture.

that was pretty funny actually ....

by lostinwales Wed 27 May 2015, 12:46 pm

SecretFly wrote:I have a disability. I can't fly a plane. And that annoys me.

Even 'disability' is an over-precious word stolen by some overly PC people who want to make it exclusive to certain medical conditions.

Not even in secret? (sorry...)

by **LondonTiger** Wed 27 May 2015, 12:47 pm

SecretFly wrote:I have a disability. I can't fly a plane. And that annoys me.

Is that a disability or merely an inability?

disability
dɪsəˈbɪlɪti
noun
1.
a physical or mental condition that limits a person's movements, senses, or activities.

inability
ɪnəˈbɪlɪti
noun
the state of being unable to do something.

by Jimpy Wed 27 May 2015, 12:49 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
SecretFly wrote:I have a disability. I can't fly a plane. And that annoys me.

Is that a disability or merely an inability?

Its an inability or (as I previously stated) a lack of aptitude.

by spaynter Wed 27 May 2015, 12:55 pm

I saw this at the time and was surprised that the officials did nothing about it. I'd be thinking penalty from the restart, possibly a yellow card for unsportsmanlike, rather than foul, play.

The Citing Commissioners should be looking for illegal actions that either damaged someone, or had the risk of damaging someone, either deliberately or recklessly.

Was what Hartley did as bad as a punch? No. Was it as bad as a swing and a miss? No. I'd argue that his actions couldn't possibly have harmed his opponent and then it's unsportsmanlike, not foul, play.

I expect him to be cleared or possibly, given his shocking record, a one week ban which won't affect anything.

by offload Wed 27 May 2015, 1:02 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
offload wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
offload wrote:Not much in it, but he does make contact with his head. This lad has a self destruct button and a learning difficulty. What a tool - Lancaster must be fuming.

Here we go again....

Exactly where do you think we are going again..? I'm simply pointing out the bl***ing obvious. Surely difficult to argue that Hartley's a good example of someone who learns from his mistakes !

If you had stated he had difficulty leaning from his mistakes - you would have made a valid point.

However you stated he had "a learning difficulty" perhaps just a poor choice of words but you are by saying that stating he has a disability. On boards like this it becomes second nature to assume that people are being deliberately insulting rather than just making a poor cjhoice of words

OK - regulars on this board should know that unlike some well know culprits, I am certainly not one of the posters here who prefers to adopt an insulting or aggressive tone. So let me be clear. I was in no way suggesting that Mr. Hartley has a disability. I am asserting that given his poor disciplinary record and frequent lapses in discipline - one might conclude that he struggles to learn from his mistakes. There, hopefully even the most ardent Hartley apologist is not offended. Jimpy, you can now focus on the thread without having to hold your head in despair.

by Scottrf Wed 27 May 2015, 1:09 pm

What a shambles when they will investigate an incident the referee and TMO didn't deem worthy of a yellow, but are happy to postpone possible breaches of the salary cap until it doesn't actually affect the standings.

As for Hartley, silly but a minor incident.

by Jimpy Wed 27 May 2015, 1:53 pm

offload wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
offload wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
offload wrote:Not much in it, but he does make contact with his head. This lad has a self destruct button and a learning difficulty. What a tool - Lancaster must be fuming.

Here we go again....

Exactly where do you think we are going again..? I'm simply pointing out the bl***ing obvious. Surely difficult to argue that Hartley's a good example of someone who learns from his mistakes !

If you had stated he had difficulty leaning from his mistakes - you would have made a valid point.

However you stated he had "a learning difficulty" perhaps just a poor choice of words but you are by saying that stating he has a disability. On boards like this it becomes second nature to assume that people are being deliberately insulting rather than just making a poor cjhoice of words

OK - regulars on this board should know that unlike some well know culprits, I am certainly not one of the posters here who prefers to adopt an insulting or aggressive tone. So let me be clear. I was in no way suggesting that Mr. Hartley has a disability. I am asserting that given his poor disciplinary record and frequent lapses in discipline - one might conclude that he struggles to learn from his mistakes. There, hopefully even the most ardent Hartley apologist is not offended. Jimpy, you can now focus on the thread without having to hold your head in despair.

It stems from another thread where it was suggested by people in no way qualified to make the judgement, that Manu Tuilagi's 'psyche is flawed'.... I saw 'learning difficulty' and thought, "oh God, here we go again".

by SecretFly Wed 27 May 2015, 1:55 pm

Jimpy wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
SecretFly wrote:I have a disability. I can't fly a plane. And that annoys me.

Is that a disability or merely an inability?

Its an inability or (as I previously stated) a lack of aptitude.

It's DIS...or IN. I don't care which...it's a lack of ability and I have to pretend to fly on Google f**king Earth!

by BamBam Wed 27 May 2015, 2:35 pm

We're here debating how many months old Dylan should be banned for after tickling Jamie George's neck with his head, while over in Italy, one of those nancy boy footballers has got a 3 game ban for this

https://vine.co/v/eq6TJY7VwIU

by SecretFly Wed 27 May 2015, 2:39 pm

I don't like nancy boy footballers trying to be hard edged like masculine sapped rugby players!

3 months for acting tough is what that lad should get!

by offload Wed 27 May 2015, 2:43 pm

BamBam wrote:We're here debating how many months old Dylan should be banned for after tickling Jamie George's neck with his head, while over in Italy, one of those nancy boy footballers has got a 3 game ban for this

https://vine.co/v/eq6TJY7VwIU

That's more like it - no argument over intent, but I still think he took a dive.
A 3 match ban? Football is rotten to the core from top to bottom.

by Gwlad Wed 27 May 2015, 4:14 pm

Jimpy wrote:
ebop wrote:Imagine if Tuilagi had done this to the policewoman, no worries mate, it's not a headbutt.

I'm waiting with baited breath for someone to come on here and state that Hartley's 'psyche is flawed'.....

Gwlad?...... Gwlad?..... anyone?..... Gwlad?.... Bueller?

No?.... okay..... Beshocked?..... Beshocked?...... anyone?...... Beshocked?...... Bueller?

I'd say yours is on its way Jimpy if you can't connect the dots.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 27 May 2015, 9:59 pm

4 week ban.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 27 May 2015, 10:08 pm

Thats him done then. George will get the chance to impress.

by Guest Wed 27 May 2015, 11:42 pm

Believe it or not, I'm not actually a mean spirited person. But if Hartley misses the RWC for ill discipline then it will be his own damned fault and I will chuckle if this repeat offender has shot himself in the ultimate foot. I contrast this stance with Tuilagi, whom I actually feel a bit sorry for in missing the RWC.

by SecretFly Wed 27 May 2015, 11:49 pm

ebop wrote:Believe it or not, I'm not actually a mean spirited person. But if Hartley misses the RWC for ill discipline then it will be his own damned fault and I will chuckle if this repeat offender has shot himself in the ultimate foot. I contrast this stance with Tuilagi, whom I actually feel a bit sorry for in missing the RWC.

Why? Tuilagi assaulted two police officers (females?) .... and Hartley kinda walked into a big man who could handle himself and didn't obviously think too much of the bravado from Hartley.

Now, my question is not why you feel so good that Hartley will suffer (you got your reasons and history I'm sure) but what the hell is so sad about Tuilagi suffering?

by **Notch** Thu 28 May 2015, 12:31 am

It's pretty unbelievable he'd manage to potentially screw up his World Cup chances over a nothing incident just two years after he screwed up his Lions chances over a nothing incident. There is apparently no career landmark thats so important that he won't shoot himself in the foot and miss it.

I don't think the 'headbutt' was a red card offence as it wasn't particularly forceful. However, with Hartleys record, the fact he's put himself in that position in the first place is just remarkable. Whilst someone with a clean record might get that dismissed, he wasn't going to.

by Guest Thu 28 May 2015, 1:02 am

I don't think it was a red, but it was silly from Hartley. When I first read about the headbutt I thought Hartleys brain must go walkabout leading up to big events like the Lions and the World Cup. There might be something in that.

I hope he can still make it to the World Cup, but he has only himself to blame if he can't.

by **George Carlin** Thu 28 May 2015, 7:19 am

Jaysus. Hartley doesn't need an opposition on the field.

He does pretty well all by himself. Sad, but at the same time, just stupid.

by jbeadlesbigrighthand Thu 28 May 2015, 8:00 am

Genuine question - is this it for Hartley's England career? The incident itself was really not that bad; just handbags. However, Hartley had already been told he was on his last chance with England, and he's now ruled himself out for the warm ups and first game. Given that Lancaster isn't afraid of enforcing discipline, will he show Hartley the door? Or will England's dearth of experienced hookers save Hartley?

by dummy_half Thu 28 May 2015, 8:03 am

GC

Hartley definitely has something of the 'could start a fight in an empty room' about him. The stupidity here is that he was just trying to be niggly and over-stepped the mark sufficiently to get this ban.

I still don't think there was much to the incident really, and that had it been a different player with a better reputation the citing panel wouldn't have got involved. Not meant as an excuse for Dylan, just my feeling on this case.

by dummy_half Thu 28 May 2015, 8:06 am

jbeadle

The 'last warning' is not something that we know the terms of, or if it formally exists rather than Lancaster having said 'don't do anything silly'.

I've said elsewhere that I expect Hartley to be kept in, but I'm only 60:40 on that. If he is left out of the RWC squad I can see us moving on to the young up and coming hookers and him being effectively frozen out unless we have a major injury crisis.

by Guest Thu 28 May 2015, 8:23 am

SecretFly, like I said, I just feel a bit sorry for Tuilagi. I don't feel sad. Just a bit sorry. Don't confuse this with me thinking what he did was ok. I won't feel 'good' about Hartley being potentially dropped. But I won't feel sorry for him either like I might towards a player like Tuilagi whom isn't a chronic cheap shot merchant. The chuckle will be for history's sake as you alluded to. And I don't want to get into comparing the two acts as my opinion is not based on this but I take your point though.

by Geordie Thu 28 May 2015, 8:26 am

SecretFly wrote:
ebop wrote:Believe it or not, I'm not actually a mean spirited person. But if Hartley misses the RWC for ill discipline then it will be his own damned fault and I will chuckle if this repeat offender has shot himself in the ultimate foot. I contrast this stance with Tuilagi, whom I actually feel a bit sorry for in missing the RWC.

Why? Tuilagi assaulted two police officers (females?) .... and Hartley kinda walked into a big man who could handle himself and didn't obviously think too much of the bravado from Hartley.

Now, my question is not why you feel so good that Hartley will suffer (you got your reasons and history I'm sure) but what the hell is so sad about Tuilagi suffering?

Without defending his actions, he was grabbed from behind and he pushed them not knowing who had grabbed him.
IMO thats different from assault....but still a situation he shouldn't find himself in.

Now whilst Hartley should rightly feel harsh being banned over this particular incident...he has walked a fine line with his club disciplinary record. And if Lancaster is to show consistency he should ban Hartley.

But he wont....

by Jimpy Thu 28 May 2015, 8:29 am

Gwlad wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
ebop wrote:Imagine if Tuilagi had done this to the policewoman, no worries mate, it's not a headbutt.

I'm waiting with baited breath for someone to come on here and state that Hartley's 'psyche is flawed'.....

Gwlad?...... Gwlad?..... anyone?..... Gwlad?.... Bueller?

No?.... okay..... Beshocked?..... Beshocked?...... anyone?...... Beshocked?...... Bueller?

I'd say yours is on its way Jimpy if you can't connect the dots.

by Jimpy Thu 28 May 2015, 8:32 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
ebop wrote:Believe it or not, I'm not actually a mean spirited person. But if Hartley misses the RWC for ill discipline then it will be his own damned fault and I will chuckle if this repeat offender has shot himself in the ultimate foot. I contrast this stance with Tuilagi, whom I actually feel a bit sorry for in missing the RWC.

Why? Tuilagi assaulted two police officers (females?) .... and Hartley kinda walked into a big man who could handle himself and didn't obviously think too much of the bravado from Hartley.

Now, my question is not why you feel so good that Hartley will suffer (you got your reasons and history I'm sure) but what the hell is so sad about Tuilagi suffering?

Without defending his actions, he was grabbed from behind and he pushed them not knowing who had grabbed him.
IMO thats different from assault....but still a situation he shouldn't find himself in.

Now whilst Hartley should rightly feel harsh being banned over this particular incident...he has walked a fine line with his club disciplinary record. And if Lancaster is to show consistency he should ban Hartley.

But he wont....

You've only got to lay a hand on someone and that can be classed as assault - so technically, he did assault the officers. Still, the way some nosh bags on here go on, you'd think he attacked them with an iron bar or something. Assault should be a bit more clear cut - except punching out Chris Ashton's lights is okay, especially after he's pulled a player into touch by his hair (and I don't think many would get too upset about that.... Whistle

)

by Geordie Thu 28 May 2015, 8:38 am

Ok yes assault is assault your right...but there's different levels, and I guess we both agree this is not a severe level.

by jbeadlesbigrighthand Thu 28 May 2015, 9:07 am

dummy_half wrote:jbeadle

The 'last warning' is not something that we know the terms of, or if it formally exists rather than Lancaster having said 'don't do anything silly'.

I've said elsewhere that I expect Hartley to be kept in, but I'm only 60:40 on that. If he is left out of the RWC squad I can see us moving on to the young up and coming hookers and him being effectively frozen out unless we have a major injury crisis.

I'd agree with that. Clearly, though, you can't get much more silly than picking up a ban for something trivial, simply because you couldn't keep your cool in a high pressure environment. Hartley does now have a bit of form for losing his head on the biggest stage. You would have to suspect that Lancaster is giving serious consideration as to whether he can trust Hartley at the World Cup.

by Barney McGrew did it Thu 28 May 2015, 9:12 am

The world's gone PC mad I say.

And if we start to ban players for being stoopid...then it's going to be a pretty thin game.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 28 May 2015, 9:22 am

I'm a little sketchy with the citing rulings, when they reviewed the incident during the match if he'd picked up a yellow would they have been able to ban him?

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