Dylan Hartley Headbutt

First topic message reminder :

So it looks like Hartley is being hauled before another disciplinary committee for an alleged headbutt in last week's game against Saracens.

Here's a video of the incident:

http://vine.co/v/ebZ2Fen2gHg

If proven guilty he'll miss some of the August warmup games and, considering his lengthy record, potentially the World Cup itself.

Far from being the worst I've ever seen, he does plant his feet and lean in so I think they could claim intent.

Ford wasnt bullied by either Goode or Farrell, what does that even mean in this context? You havent even seen the final to make a judgement of your own.

And for petes sake stop with the liitle insults.

Hammerofthunor most of my analysis of games, predictions, my knowledge, stats etc.

Tait? He's already I guess but wouldn't get ahead of Nowell at Exeter (if they picked him at 15), Foden at Saints, Goode at Saracens, Brown at Quins, Watson at Bath - that's just 5 full backs.

Manu and Youngs are great but Goneva hasn't exactly shone this season, Allen is no better than numerous 12s.

Funny this playing/not playing thing. Barritt has done nothing internationally this year, and yet we are calling for him to be in the starting line up. (Something I agree with as on the surface his qualities are very complementary to JJ and Ford)

If we apply the same criteria as beshocked is to Slater then Barritt should still have it all to prove. 

The players selected deserve a chance to prove themselves in the training camp. There is not much in the way of room for bolters, but I do think Slater has as good a chance as anyone.

Itoje has a huge future and I wouldn't be upset if he goes to the RWC, but despite his progress I would not be at all surprised if he missed out

I do wonder what the scoreline would have been if Sarries Pack + Bath's Backs had played against the reverse. A giant humping I would think.

Anyway from actually watching the game I can recall no facet of the game that Farrell did better than Ford. I did not see either player "outplay" the other. Two young fly halves both played reasonably well.


Ps when was the subject of this thread last mentioned?

beshocked wrote:Hammerofthunor most of my analysis of games, predictions, my knowledge, stats etc.

Tait? He's already I guess but wouldn't get ahead of Nowell at Exeter (if they picked him at 15), Foden at Saints, Goode at Saracens, Brown at Quins, Watson at Bath - that's just 5 full backs.

Manu and Youngs are great but Goneva hasn't exactly shone this season, Allen is no better than numerous 12s.

I should hope your stats are right, people who just make them up are annoying. But I assumed you meant your opinion as that is pretty much all we provide (other than stats, which I've just covered). What I meant was, on what basis are you judging that your analysis, etc is right?

lostinwales sigh... sounds like I need to explain this a few times.....

Barritt has played numerous international games for England under Lancaster. Slater has not played in a proper international game for England.

Barritt also played in the AIs when England beat Australia.... also Barritt has won an AP this season....

Barritt has nothing to prove in comparison to Slater.

If you can't see the difference I cannot help you.

Hartley's a dirty flawed psychopath and he tried to kill George with his head (there you go LT)

HammerofThunor wrote:Hartley's a dirty flawed psychopath and he tried to kill George with his head (there you go LT)

Thank you.

Although.......


We all know just how much Saracens invest in their Black Arts Division. I suspect the truth is that Itoje had created a divot that Hartley tripped in, with Jamie George rushing up to get his head in the way. After all he was appealing to the ref even before contact.


Poor, maligned Dylan. Why always him?

beshocked wrote:lostinwales sigh... sounds like I need to explain this a few times.....

Barritt has played numerous international games for England under Lancaster. Slater has not played in a proper international game for England.

Barritt also played in the AIs when England beat Australia.... also Barritt has won an AP this season....

Barritt has nothing to prove in comparison to Slater.

If you can't see the difference I cannot help you.

You are being selective with your evidence and seem all to keen to prejudge players. I am trying to keep an open mind.

All I am saying is that all of the players selected for the extended squad have a chance, and going from past evidence Slater has a decent chance as he is a more than decent lock and occasional 6 with leadership qualities and a bit of 'beast' who would have been capped this year if he had not been injured. You seem to be dismissing him without much thought.

No he's thinking about it, but only to the extent of whether or not he can be found at Allianz Park for most weekends during the season

LondonTiger wrote:Ps when was the subject of this thread last mentioned?

Sorry on that score.

For me, the Hartley situation asks a lot of questions about our leadership, which is why I think the possible section of Slater is relevant.

It's an important question who fills in at open side for Robshaw if he gets injured but I've always felt the captaincy issue is just as important. Robshaw plays his heart out, and I'm not sure he's always physically in the best shape to make key decisions at the back end of a game. I'd like some other cool heads around him,just as Johnson could rely on half a dozen England captains in his team.

Tom Wood has always been tipped as deputy for both of Robshaw's duties, but he has little experience doing either at international level. Also, it's not absolutely certain he'll be starting. Haskell threatened to take the number six shirt from him in the 6N, before fading, while it's also possible that Lancaster will consider Billy or Itoje at six, pushing Wood down the pecking order.

Hartley was one man who had the shirt, and also captaincy experience. He's out, so who else do we rely on? We are talking about players who can make key decisions in the heat of battle. If I look through our potential starting XV, then I'm worried.

Slater may not be the answer, but I certainly hope we have an answer.

Rugby Fan wrote:Slater may not be the answer, but I certainly hope we have an answer.

Indeed he may not be. Funny thing is all we can do for the next 9 weeks is speculate. The coaches will be working with the players in the various training camps.


You can guarantee there will be a hullabaloo when the actual squad is named, but fact is most of the 50 man squad stand a chance of being selected (though maybe not Strettle or Myler ). By the end of the training camps, the coaches will know there 31. the warm up games will be for them to ensure match practice etc. Unlikely anyone will play there way into the 31 man squad in those games - but a strong possibility people coudl play there way out of the squad.

or get injured

or get injured

(ed. SNAP!)

HammerofThunor wrote:or get injured

That was indeed one of the ways they could play their way out of the squad.

And after all we know it would be their fault if we then struggled in the WC, because after all we know that you can be blamed for a loss if you have your nose broken for example

no 7 & 1/2 We'll never agree because you believe that Ford can do no wrong.

In contrast I know that Goode and Farrell have their weaknesses and flaws. On both days they won their respective battle with Ford. Doesn't make them better 10s but on the day they were.


Hammerofthunor well generally I just get stuff right during pre-match analysis. Like factors in a match. E.g. I knew that Saracens' defence and experience would be too much for Bath to handle. Thought that Bath would beat Leicester because of their superior backs etc.

Lostinwales it's very difficult to rate a player when they've barely played this season and have not played a proper international game for England.

Lancaster has put injured players in who have played in Lancaster's England team but that's different because they have the experience.

I have an open mind when it comes to the likes of Slade and Burgess. Slater is different because it seems like he's just been fast tracked in.

Londontiger the problem will come from who Lancaster picks for the warm ups.

Rugby fan I agree and players need to be tried who can give that like Itoje.



People believe I am biased, I am to an extent of course but not as much as some of you think.

I have said that Wade was unfortunate not to be in the 50 squad - personally I would have picked him instead of Strettle.

Bambam players need gametime. You expect a player to just walk into the England squad..... I don't. Crazy I know.....

Until you actually watch the final you have no right whatsoever to an opinion on who played better.

LondonTiger wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:or get injured

That was indeed one of the ways they could play their way out of the squad.

And after all we know it would be their fault if we then struggled in the WC, because after all we know that you can be blamed for a loss if you have your nose broken for example

whoosh, I'm afraid.

beshocked wrote:Hammerofthunor well generally I just get stuff right during pre-match analysis. Like factors in a match. E.g. I knew that Saracens' defence and experience would be too much for Bath to handle. Thought that Bath would beat Leicester because of their superior backs etc.

So you stick to relatively safe bets then?

LondonTiger wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:or get injured

That was indeed one of the ways they could play their way out of the squad.

And after all we know it would be their fault if we then struggled in the WC, because after all we know that you can be blamed for a loss if you have your nose broken for example

Londontiger you naively believe that injuries don't have an impact on a match.....

Missing players can make a huge difference. In that England game with May coming off, England were forced to put a full back on the wing which France exploited to brutal effect.

Lancaster got things wrong on the day. Unfortunately he didn't acknowledge his errors.

Where have I ever said Ford can do no wrong? Well ignore the final as you didn t see it to judge. What do you mean by bullied in your earlier post? How did Goode win his respective battle? What did he do bar place kicking better than ford? We dis agree as you only seem to judge players on outcomes rather than what they do and how they play.

Against Ireland ford was indeed "bullied". Except not by Sexton. The Irish back row were the culprits in that.

LondonTiger wrote:Against Ireland ford was indeed "bullied". Except not by Sexton. The Irish back row were the culprits in that.

As usual (meaning back rows in general, rathe than the Irish ones particularly)

Oh and of course injuries have an impact, and you have to try and cope with them the best you can.

But to blame the injured player for a loss is absurd.

Is Anthony Watson to blame for Bath's loss? After all he was a key player and was injured early on? Of course not that would be stupid.

HammerofThunor wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Against Ireland ford was indeed "bullied". Except not by Sexton. The Irish back row were the culprits in that.

As usual (meaning back rows in general, rathe than the Irish ones particularly)

Well it is a back rowers job to try and bully the opposition play makers, legally of course. Made so much easier if they are dominating the breakdown of course.


I feel that sometimes it is useful to ponder what difference would have been made if two players had actually swapped sides. On that day Sexton clearly performed better than Ford. However if Sexton and Ford had swapped places would the result have changed?

HammerofThunor wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:or get injured

That was indeed one of the ways they could play their way out of the squad.

And after all we know it would be their fault if we then struggled in the WC, because after all we know that you can be blamed for a loss if you have your nose broken for example

whoosh, I'm afraid.

That's a Jonny May reference.

no 7 & 1/2 you believe that Ford was not outplayed by either player.

Feel like I am going round in circles with you when it comes to Goode and Ford. Goode controlled the game better. Played his part in the Saracens tries. Helped inspire his team to a good victory with his decision making,playmaking, kicking in general. Think he even kicked a drop goal.

The outcome is very important but it's not the only factor. Ford had to be protected and mollycoddled by the Bath forwards. Even when Bath had some period of possession and territory they huffed and puffed but Ford could not help his team find a way through.

Ford could not unlock the Saracens defence. It was the Bath forwards who scored a try in the match vs Goode.

When I mean bully I mean that Goode and Farrell both helped their team impose their gameplan on Bath and in the end Saracens ran out winners in both.

I wouldn't say Ford was rubbish against Goode, it's just Goode was the better 10 on the day.

Let's say if I was giving ratings it would be 5/10 for Ford, 8/10 for Goode - it helps of course that Goode had the Saracens pack in the ascendancy.

Perhaps if the Bath pack had been on top the ratings would be reversed but I am talking about the game itself.

LondonTiger wrote:Oh and of course injuries have an impact, and you have to try and cope with them the best you can.

But to blame the injured player for a loss is absurd.

Is Anthony Watson to blame for Bath's loss? After all he was a key player and was injured early on? Of course not that would be stupid.

Londontiger you have to try and cope the best you can but it's a factor.

It would be naive to completely discount the loss of Watson.

Might well not have made a difference but's still something to ponder. It certainly robbed Bath of one of their best players.

Didn't help either that Bath only had 2 backs as replacements.

It's a bit like the Saracens-Leicester final that Saracens won 22-18 - if Manu Tuilagi was not banned I think Tigers would have won. Is it Manu's fault? You can debate that but I do think it the absentee of Tuilagi was a huge factor as Tigers lacked cutting edge in their backline.


Irrelevant whether you blame May or not for his broken nose - it still didn't help England's cause for the reasons I have said.

You see this is where we have a fundamental difference of opinion of judging players. You seem to fault a player for what his team does around him. Goode didn't outplay Ford, Saracen's back row outplay Bath's back row and put more pressure on Ford than was on Goode. It's the same with wingers. You see the most important thing on judging a winger is the number of tries he scores. I see it depending on whether their team creates those tries for them. You need something to finish to be a good finisher.

beshocked wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Oh and of course injuries have an impact, and you have to try and cope with them the best you can.

But to blame the injured player for a loss is absurd.

Is Anthony Watson to blame for Bath's loss? After all he was a key player and was injured early on? Of course not that would be stupid.

Londontiger you have to try and cope the best you can but it's a factor.

It would be naive to completely discount the loss of Watson.

Might well not have made a difference but's still something to ponder. It certainly robbed Bath of one of their best players.

Didn't help either that Bath only had 2 backs as replacements.

It's a bit like the Saracens-Leicester final that Saracens won 22-18 - if Manu Tuilagi was not banned I think Tigers would have won. Is it Manu's fault? You can debate that but I do think it the absentee of Tuilagi was a huge factor as Tigers lacked cutting edge in their backline.


Irrelevant whether you blame May or not for his broken nose - it still didn't help England's cause for the reasons I have said.

It's not about discounting Watson's loss. It's about whether you blame him for going off injured. Like someone blamed May for a loss because he was injured in a game.

Vincent Debaty is a better loosehead prop than Mako Vunipola

After all, the 33 year old Debaty played a full role in dominating the Saracens team in the Champions Cup semi final. He carried better, tackled better, and scrummed better than Mako did.

Mike Haley is a better full back than Alex Goode.

After all, Haley was the starting full back in the Sale side that beat Saracens back in February. I think Haley should be ahead of Goode for the England squad.

Jon Mills is a better lock than Maro Itoje

Mills was also in the Sale side that beat Saracens, it must then follow that he is a better player than his direct counterpart that day.

My bolters for the England squad - Mike Haley and Jon Mills

(I didn't watch either of the above games)

Mills is Welsh (although he might qualify for England)

They took Moriarty, we'll nab one of theirs

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 you believe that Ford was not outplayed by either player.

Feel like I am going round in circles with you when it comes to Goode and Ford. Goode controlled the game better. Played his part in the Saracens tries. Helped inspire his team to a good victory with his decision making,playmaking, kicking in general. Think he even kicked a drop goal.

The outcome is very important but it's not the only factor. Ford had to be protected and mollycoddled by the Bath forwards. Even when Bath had some period of possession and territory they huffed and puffed but Ford could not help his team find a way through.

Ford could not unlock the Saracens defence. It was the Bath forwards who scored a try in the match vs Goode.

When I mean bully I mean that Goode and Farrell both helped their team impose their gameplan on Bath and in the end Saracens ran out winners in both.

I wouldn't say Ford was rubbish against Goode, it's just Goode was the better 10 on the day.

Let's say if I was giving ratings it would be 5/10 for Ford, 8/10 for Goode - it helps of course that Goode had the Saracens pack in the ascendancy.

Perhaps if the Bath pack had been on top the ratings would be reversed but I am talking about the game itself.

Ford put some lovely passes through that day and ran the ball well when he went for it. I wont change your mind ever though!

Hammerofthunor rugby is a team game. You work as a team, units etc. I agree sometimes it's not a player's fault but it doesn't change that player X would be struggling.

I look at a game and see who performs better based on how the game goes.

Goode played better than Ford. As I said a rating of 8/10 vs 5/10.

Sounds you think Ford should get a free pass because his team got beaten up in both games.

Sometimes it's best to judge a player on how they deal with adversity. Doesn't seem like Ford did so well on those days.

As for teams creating opportunities for them - you can say that team X makes player Y looks good but that seems to be unfair on player Y. Player Y might well position themselves well enough to have a walk in.

I was looking at something work related (shocking I know) and came across this fragment that I was going to post when something like this came up before

We all see what we want to see and one aspect of that is that we see our own favorites develop their game and we accept that sometimes their form goes down as well as up. For our 'non favourites' they remain in our mind forever at a fixed point in their development. Usually a point where they messed up big time. This is especially prevalent when you get players who do special things from time to time, usually because most of the time they don't.

no 7 & 1/2 Bath's backline scored no tries that day, Bath's only try came from a rumble from the forwards from close range. Ford was well shackled. Even with overwhelming possession and territory in the second half, he and the Bath team huffed and puffed but couldn't find a way through bar the Bath forwards try mentioned.

No you won't change my mind.

Bambam not quite sure I understand the relevance.

Hammerofthunor do you not think that the May injury had an impact on the match?

beshocked wrote:Hammerofthunor rugby is a team game. You work as a team, units etc. I agree sometimes it's not a player's fault but it doesn't change that player X would be struggling.

I look at a game and see who performs better based on how the game goes.

Goode played better than Ford. As I said a rating of 8/10 vs 5/10.

Sounds you think Ford should get a free pass because his team got beaten up in both games.

Sometimes it's best to judge a player on how they deal with adversity. Doesn't seem like Ford did so well on those days.

As for teams creating opportunities for them - you can say that team X makes player Y looks good but that seems to be unfair on player Y. Player Y might well position themselves well enough to have a walk in.

I don't think ford should have a free pass. But I'm able to look at a bigger picture rather than everything in isolation. Here's an example. 2 kickers, one of the makes 5 out of 5 kicks but they're all from in front of the posts, the other make 4 out of 5 but they're all from the touch line. Who did better? Here's another, one kicker knows over 7 out of 7 kicks, 6 of which were scrum penalties. The other kicks 3 out of 3 kicks from other types of penalties. Who's better?

The simple fact is, in the Goode Bath game Ford dealt with the pressure from Saracens extremely well. Often making ground when the defenders were almost on him as he received the ball. It was noticeable how well he was doing with almost no protection from his back row. That, to me, is better than playing well with absolutely no pressure on you whatsoever. You disagree. That's fine. I'll get over it.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 Bath's backline scored no tries that day, Bath's only try came from a rumble from the forwards from close range. Ford was well shackled. Even with overwhelming possession and territory in the second half, he and the Bath team huffed and puffed but couldn't find a way through bar the Bath forwards try mentioned.

No you won't change my mind.

Bambam not quite sure I understand the relevance.

Hammerofthunor do you not think that the May injury had an impact on the match?

I don't care. But it wasn't May's fault regardless.

Lostinwales

I think Nowell and Ford have come on leaps and bounds since the slip ups (in my opinion).


I think Ford is a very good player.

Should start 10 in the RWC ahead of Farrell of course.

He's done well for England bar vs Ireland. He's had a very good season for Bath but there have been times when his opposition numbers have played better than him.

I think Nowell did very well this season when picked for England.

I also acknowledged that Farrell's form has been poor in the last 12 months though in the last two games he's been back to what he was like.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 Bath's backline scored no tries that day, Bath's only try came from a rumble from the forwards from close range. Ford was well shackled. Even with overwhelming possession and territory in the second half, he and the Bath team huffed and puffed but couldn't find a way through bar the Bath forwards try mentioned.

No you won't change my mind.

Bambam not quite sure I understand the relevance.

Hammerofthunor do you not think that the May injury had an impact on the match?

But can you look beyond the no tries scored by Bath backs and judge how Ford played? He mixed his passes well put players into space etc. He actually played well in that game.

Hammerofthunor fair enough. Taking in other factors - Goode was playing away from home, only knew he was going to play 10, seconds before kick off.

Bath came into this match off a 12 match unbeaten run.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26337858

while Goode stepped up at short notice to control the game at fly-half after Charlie Hodgson pulled out during the warm-up, feeling unwell.

Goode landed two penalties, two conversions and a drop goal for a 13-point individual haul in a near faultless performance.

It was Goode who created an opening for Joel Tomkins and Duncan Taylor to set up the first try of the night for Wyles on the left on 31 minutes.


"This week was a five-day turnaround and we only got Alex Goode back from England on Wednesday. He was getting ready to play full-back tonight and, with 30 seconds to go, he's asked to play fly-half.

"Charlie was feeling really dizzy and light-headed. It would have been wrong to expose him to a game like this. But Alex did an amazing job.

"He hasn't been at the club for four or five weeks, apart from a couple of days. To have to step in and play fly-half against a really good team in a big atmosphere, in a big game, and do what he did, was pretty special.

"We had to re-adjust a lot of people, but the team just rolled up their sleeves. It was a great performance.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 Bath's backline scored no tries that day, Bath's only try came from a rumble from the forwards from close range. Ford was well shackled. Even with overwhelming possession and territory in the second half, he and the Bath team huffed and puffed but couldn't find a way through bar the Bath forwards try mentioned.

No you won't change my mind.

Bambam not quite sure I understand the relevance.

Hammerofthunor do you not think that the May injury had an impact on the match?

But can you look beyond the no tries scored by Bath backs and judge how Ford played? He mixed his passes well put players into space etc. He actually played well in that game.

It's a 10's job to put their team in the right positions. If you are under the cosh even more so.

So what rating out of 10 would you give the Ford performance? 8/10? The Goode one? 5/10?

beshocked wrote:



Bambam not quite sure I understand the relevance.

Well if one team beats another, its players are automatically better than the opposition players, no?

Therefore, Debaty>Mako, Haley>Goode, Mills>Itoje

Both about a 7.

As for Goode we have had that debate before. I think its a huge shame he plays at FB not no.10, but at Sarries with Hodgeson and Farrell I guess its not surprising.

Bambam when did I say that?

beshocked wrote:Bambam when did I say that?

I don't think you ever did say that, Beshocked.

On the other hand, I can't remember you saying someone outplayed his opposite number when he appeared on the losing side, so it's understandable that you might have that joke made at your expense.

Not true sure he said Goode was better than abendanon in the most recent game.