Ireland's Rugby World Cup 2015 Thread - "You're wrong on several counts..."

[Don Alfonso]

First topic message reminder :

Alright.

The time for whinging at the Welsh, sniping at the Scots and educating the English is done. Playtime is over. The bitterness is dialled up to ten, the eye-patches producing metaphorical one-eyedness are donned, chips are placed on shoulders – it’s time for some proper, down n’ dirty, internecine bickering.

Who will go to the 2015 Rugby World Cup to play for Ireland?

Who should go?



The players have the following opportunities to shine like a diamond for Joe:


Emerging Ireland Tbilisi Cup

Emerging Italy v Emerging Ireland
Saturday 13th June 14:00 BST

Uruguay v Emerging Ireland
Wednesday 17th June 14:00 BST

Georgia v Emerging Ireland
Sunday 21st June 16:00 BST


Ireland Matches

Wales v Ireland
Millennium Stadium
Saturday 8th August

Ireland v Scotland
Aviva Stadium
Saturday 15th August

Ireland v Wales
Aviva Stadium
Saturday 29th August

England v Ireland
Twickenham Stadium
Saturday 5th September


31 players.

A 17/14 split? Has Madigan played himself off the plane? Do Ruddock or Trimble have enough time to make it back? Can Rory’s darts be trusted? Does POM spend too much time on the wing? Are Payne and Strauss “Irish” enough? Why is Reddan there? Has Zebo been by-passed? Is Cave too slow? Why Felix Jones?

HAVE AT THEE!

[rodders]

Zebo got MoM right? Thought he was a little lucky though. Lucky to not be sin binned for his trip tackle on Visser and his defence looked a little shaky, not necessarily his tackling but his positioning.  5 mins later he was under the posts.

Is he a starter?

Ignore that motm - it was very opportunistic and unprofessional of Quinlan to try and influence selection in Zebo's favor like that. Probably he knows something inside the camp that Zebo may not make the cut.

Fitzgerald didn't look happy with his performance either though, so who knows but one of them will go.

He was pretty ok - lucky not to go for the trip.

O'Brien was easily motm for me.

[Submachine]

Denton should have been MOM. Carried like a demon and did huge work in the rucks. Best I've seen him play. O'Briens work over the ball was the reason we did not lose that game though IMO.

[GunsGerms]

Zebo got MoM right? Thought he was a little lucky though. Lucky to not be sin binned for his trip tackle on Visser and his defence looked a little shaky, not necessarily his tackling but his positioning.  5 mins later he was under the posts.

Is he a starter?

Zebo was possibly lucky to get MOM IMO. He did play well but I think Madigan had more an influence on Ireland winning and Sean O'Brien in particular also had a strong game. Interestingly the Irish Times had Jared Payne as MOM while the Irish examiner gave Zebo a six, the lowest scoring for a back.

Alan Quinlan was the RTE pundit that awarded Zebo the man of the match award which smacks a little of nepotism as they were team mates.

[GunsGerms]

Denton should have been MOM. Carried like a demon and did huge work in the rucks. Best I've seen him play. O'Briens work over the ball was the reason we did not lose that game though IMO.

100% agree re Denton, he was outstanding.

[rodders]

Interestingly the Irish Times had Jared Payne as MOM while the Irish

Glad someone else noticed how well he played, not just in defense but attack too where, he made some very good gainline carries and half breaks and was a focal point for a quite a few set plays.

Thought Henry had a great game too - scored one try and involved in quite few plays from the lineout.

[Submachine]

Interestingly the Irish Times had Jared Payne as MOM while the Irish

Glad someone else noticed how well he played, not just in defense but attack too where, he made some very good gainline carries and half breaks and was a focal point for a quite a few set plays.

Thought Henry had a great game too - scored one try and involved in quite few plays from the lineout.

Ulsters answer to Siné.

[Notch]

Think Zebo got man of the match because the moves we used consistently used him coming from deep. Definitely structured a lot of our attack around trying to assess his effectiveness in that role. He spent a lot of time on the ball and probably ran the most with the ball- as you'd expect from the fullback- but he didn't actually hurt the opposition as much as he could have with all that time on the ball.

I'm not saying he was bad- he mixed very good stuff with a few errors- but was surprised he got Man of the Match.

[GunsGerms]

Well Chris Henry is a shoe in to be in the squad IMO. Great player.

[Submachine]

Think Zebo got man of the match because the moves we used consistently used him coming from deep. Definitely structured a lot of our attack around trying to assess his effectiveness in that role. He spent a lot of time on the ball and probably ran the most with the ball- as you'd expect from the fullback- but he didn't actually hurt the opposition as much as he could have with all that time on the ball.

I'm not saying he was bad- he mixed very good stuff with a few errors- but was surprised he got Man of the Match.

I think Fitzgerald let him down a couple of times. When he skinned Vernon and drew the last man Fitz should hve been much deeper and could have afforded to be closer but he was very flat which meant Zebo could not be sure of the pass at the speed he was travelling and so kept the ball and went to ground. If Fitz had reacted to the break he could have made it much easier for Zebo to give a pop pass or offload from the deck.

[Notch]

In answer to fa0019s question, I probably wouldn't have Zebo as a starter. I would be looking at a back line of;

9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. Henshaw
13. Payne
14. Trimble
15. Kearney

as our first choice right now. Back three is hardest position to predict who the starters are tbh.

[Golden]

Zebo got MoM right? Thought he was a little lucky though. Lucky to not be sin binned for his trip tackle on Visser and his defence looked a little shaky, not necessarily his tackling but his positioning.  5 mins later he was under the posts.

Is he a starter?

Zebo was possibly lucky to get MOM IMO. He did play well but I think Madigan had more an influence on Ireland winning and Sean O'Brien in particular also had a strong game. Interestingly the Irish Times had Jared Payne as MOM while the Irish examiner gave Zebo a six, the lowest scoring for a back.

Alan Quinlan was the RTE pundit that awarded Zebo the man of the match award which smacks a little of nepotism as they were team mates.

How could anyone think he had a worse game then Boss, Fitz Darcy or Bowe?

He may not have deserved the MOM (would agree with Denton) but he had a decent game and was very involved.

[GunsGerms]

He got the same rating as them I think.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/watch-joe-schmidt-give-his-view-of-irelands-performance-player-ratings-691201.html

I had Zebo as one of our better backs but not MOM.

[rodders]

He got the same rating as them I think.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/watch-joe-schmidt-give-his-view-of-irelands-performance-player-ratings-691201.html

I had Zebo as one of our better backs but not MOM.

Me too

I thought he was definitely better than Fitz and Bowe, who were average/rusty and Boss and D'arcy, who were pretty poor.

Probably he was slightly better or on par with Madigan and just behind Payne as the best back.

None of the backs were brilliant though so surprised anyone outside O'Brien or Henry was a motm contender.

[Rory_Gallagher]

He got the same rating as them I think.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/watch-joe-schmidt-give-his-view-of-irelands-performance-player-ratings-691201.html

I had Zebo as one of our better backs but not MOM.

Those ratings look as if they were written by somebody watching the game in the background while doing something else..

[Golden]

He got the same rating as them I think.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/watch-joe-schmidt-give-his-view-of-irelands-performance-player-ratings-691201.html

I had Zebo as one of our better backs but not MOM.

Those ratings are ridiculous.

Kilcoyne and Zebo get a 5 and a 6 respectively while Ross gets an 8, Bowe and Fitz a 7!!

Even Denton only got a 6!

Whoever put that together must not have watched the match.

[wolfball]

In answer to fa0019s question, I probably wouldn't have Zebo as a starter. I would be looking at a back line of;

9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. Henshaw
13. Payne
14. Trimble
15. Kearney

as our first choice right now. Back three is hardest position to predict who the starters are tbh.

With Madigan/Zebo bench?

[Sin é]

Zebo got MoM right? Thought he was a little lucky though. Lucky to not be sin binned for his trip tackle on Visser and his defence looked a little shaky, not necessarily his tackling but his positioning.  5 mins later he was under the posts.

Is he a starter?

Zebo was possibly lucky to get MOM IMO. He did play well but I think Madigan had more an influence on Ireland winning and Sean O'Brien in particular also had a strong game. Interestingly the Irish Times had Jared Payne as MOM while the Irish examiner gave Zebo a six, the lowest scoring for a back.

Alan Quinlan was the RTE pundit that awarded Zebo the man of the match award which smacks a little of nepotism as they were team mates.

Quinlan said he gave it to Zebo because he was under huge pressure to perform. I think it was between Zebo & Madigan as he praised Madigan a lot.

[Notch]

Yeah, probably. Madigan has the edge on Jackson for the bench because off his ability to play 12- not only that he's also kicking a higher percentage of his goals. I still think Jackson is a better all round 10 though, will be interesting to see what happens if Sexton goes down but hopefully it doesn't come to that.

And hopefully Reddan and Murray stay fit for the whole tournament as well because it seems that Boss is ahead of Marmion and he doesn't look capable of playing well at this level any more!

[FecklessRogue]

Poor auld Sexton is gonna get absolutely hammered in this WC. Everyone knows how important he is to us. Nearly every article you read from countries about to face Ireland invariably have the line "to stop Ireland you have to stop Sexton". He's gonna have big guys running straight at him all tournament, probably more than any other player. I wouldn't be hugely surprised if he does get hurt at some point. If he does Jackson is the best option to start. I hope he's working hard on his goal kicking.

[Engine#4]

I must be watching different games to some of the Ulster fans because playing too deep is a charge I would have levelled at Jackson in an Irish shirt, not Madigan.  The Welsh match is the first time that I have looked at Jackson play for Ireland and thought he consistently attacked the gainline, as he does for Ulster.

As for the centres; Earls is better going forward while Payne is better in defence. Both will go to the WC and it will be horses for courses depending on the gameplan. I don't think either of them are showing that they possess 'magic' hands.

[ME-109]

He got the same rating as them I think.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/watch-joe-schmidt-give-his-view-of-irelands-performance-player-ratings-691201.html

I had Zebo as one of our better backs but not MOM.

Tell the truth Guns you work for the Examiner....although I guess it couldnt be true as Luke was given a 7..

[GunsGerms]

Quinlan said he gave it to Zebo because he was under huge pressure to perform. I think it was between Zebo & Madigan as he praised Madigan a lot.

Everyone is under pressure to preform. Certainly dont think Zebo is under any more pressure than Madigan.

[SecretFly]

Quinlan said he gave it to Zebo because he was under huge pressure to perform. I think it was between Zebo & Madigan as he praised Madigan a lot.

Everyone is under pressure to preform. Certainly dont think Zebo is under any more pressure than Madigan.

Yeah, Zebo is Zebo.  As in he's a character from a Superhero comic - the media are feeding us everything we know about him - and most of it is bullschit.

But the Irish media (and social media) have learned a few British media tricks and they have to have their select darlings to take them through big occasions.  They have to have their 'Narrative' protagonists and I guess, for some time now, Zebo fits the bill.  
So he's painted as this flawed hero who likes the craic but gets all serious when the sun goes down and he dons his Irish kit.  Some of the city folk think he's a menace that should be taken off the streets permanently - others think he's the knight we need to replace ol' leather ass he'self, The Lone BOD.

I think the truth is much more mundane.  He's a player, a player looking for a spot at the WC.  He does some good, he does some bad.  For me, the 'Midas Touch' is something that is over-tried down his channel by media and social armchair sitters alike.  I'd personally see Earls as the probable Irish player with the Magic cape.  But he's there on the sidelines struggling to even get a wing berth in some eyes.

And there is Simon Zebo - the man allegedly with most pressure on him to be the Hero every sucker allegedly believes him to be.  It's good copy, I reckon.

[rodders]

The next two games will give the game away about what Joe is planning but I will be looking to see either of the following next up:-

11. Earls
12. Henshaw
13. Cave
14. Trimble
15. Kearney

Bench: Madigan, Cave

and

11. Bowe
12. Henshaw
13. Earls
14. Trimble
15. Kearney

Bench: Madigan, Earls

Henshaw and Kearney are nailed on and haven't played so we know they are going to start one of the next two.

Payne will probably get a week off, given he's nailed on and Zebo has featured two weeks running.

The two big give away's will be whether Cave features again and where Earls plays.

If Earls gets a start on the wing and Cave features at 13 I think both will travel. If Earls gets another start at 13 I think Cave will miss the cut.

I'm still not 100% convinced that both Trimble and Bowe will be picked. Only chance both will go is if Jones misses out and Zebo is trusted to cover 15, or if Joe goes with only Madigan as back up 10 and takes an extra outside back.

There will definitely be one left sided back player and given Earls looks nailed on as wing/center cover  and he and Jones is right footed - if Jones goes then one of Fitzgerald and Zebo has to go for balance, leaving only one more wing spot for either Bowe/Trimble.

If neither Bowe or Trimble move to the left then we will know Joe considers them only as right sided wings making it unlikely he'll take both unless he only takes one specialist full back. If Felix goes, so does Fitzgerald.

I think if Trimble hadn't of been injured against Wales Zebo would have come on for Jones rather than Trimble.

[SecretFly]

11. Bowe
12. Henshaw
13. Earls
14. Trimble
15. Kearney

Bench: Madigan, Earls

See? I was right about what Earls can potentially bring to this Irish side. Let Zeebs try that!!!

[rodders]

11. Bowe
12. Henshaw
13. Earls
14. Trimble
15. Kearney

Bench: Madigan, Earls Cave/McFadden

See?  I was right about what Earls can potentially bring to this Irish side.  Let Zeebs try that!!!

Oops.

[SecretFly]

You were right the first time. Earls can handle both the pressure of playing and the envy of the bench. Whaarh a man!

[GunsGerms]

Quinlan said he gave it to Zebo because he was under huge pressure to perform. I think it was between Zebo & Madigan as he praised Madigan a lot.

Everyone is under pressure to preform. Certainly dont think Zebo is under any more pressure than Madigan.

Yeah, Zebo is Zebo.  As in he's a character from a Superhero comic - the media are feeding us everything we know about him - and most of it is bullschit.

But the Irish media (and social media) have learned a few British media tricks and they have to have their select darlings to take them through big occasions.  They have to have their 'Narrative' protagonists and I guess, for some time now, Zebo fits the bill.  
So he's painted as this flawed hero who likes the craic but gets all serious when the sun goes down and he dons his Irish kit.  Some of the city folk think he's a menace that should be taken off the streets permanently - others think he's the knight we need to replace ol' leather ass he'self, The Lone BOD.

I think the truth is much more mundane.  He's a player, a player looking for a spot at the WC.  He does some good, he does some bad.  For me, the 'Midas Touch' is something that is over-tried down his channel by media and social armchair sitters alike.  I'd personally see Earls as the probable Irish player with the Magic cape.  But he's there on the sidelines struggling to even get a wing berth in some eyes.

And there is Simon Zebo - the man allegedly with most pressure on him to be the Hero every sucker allegedly believes him to be.  It's good copy, I reckon.

Very dramatic Fly. Zebo is a really good player and we are lucky to have him but like most players he has strengths and weaknesses and I see no problem discussing them. I think he suits some games whereas other games other players may be better suited.

Id say he will be picked in the squad because he has had a lot of international game time recently and he is a good player. However, if he is not I wouldnt be worried about the likes of Kearney, McFadden, Gilroy, Earls etc. doing a job for us instead.

[rodders]

Dave Kearney is a dark horse too - played very well when he came on, is a Schmidt favorite and can play either wing plus full back.

[Submachine]

I think the back 4 computations will rumble on for a while.

I think the biggest issues are around prop. We have had a lot of information on Healy's situation but very little on Moore and Furlong. Does anyone have any insight?
No Healy , Moore or Furlong so far. Bent has been adequate but I would not have him start a match at TH. McGrath has been good and Kilcoyne a bit of a mixed bag. Made loads of carries but missed a couple of tackles and gave away some penalties.
Worst case scenario, Healy, Moore and Furlong don't make the squad. Who are the props?
McGrath - Kilcoyne - Bent
Ross - White - ?
I think if that was the case we would definitely have to bring 6 props so Archer or Ah You come in for ? and Cronin for Bent but Cronin hasn't had any game time either. Is he even in the training squad?
So if we bring 6 props does Murphy lose out?

[SecretFly]

Dave Kearney is a dark horse too - played very well when he came on, is a Schmidt favorite and can play either wing plus full back.

He's a Schmidt and Fly favourite!

.... great minds and all that jazz.......

Daverage Strikes Again!

[GunsGerms]

Dave Kearney is a dark horse too - played very well when he came on, is a Schmidt favorite and can play either wing plus full back.

Plus he is probably one of Irelands most under rated players. Great hands and excellent decision maker. Very reliable, old school Girvan Dempsey type operator.

[SecretFly]

..and he's in the wrong position....

[Notch]

Here's where I am in terms of thinking about what the squad should be. Where there are fitness doubts over someone I put their replacement in brackets.

17 FORWARDS
Cian Healy (Dave Kilcoyne), Jack McGrath, Mike Ross, Martin Moore (Nathan White), Michael Bent, Rory Best, Richardt Strauss, Sean Cronin, Paul O'Connell (c), Devin Toner, Donnacha Ryan, Iain Henderson, Peter O'Mahony, Sean O'Brien, Chris Henry, Jordi Murphy, Jamie Heaslip

14 BACKS
Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Isaac Boss, Jonathon Sexton, Paddy Jackson, Ian Madigan, Robbie Henshaw, Darren Cave, Jared Payne, Keith Earls, Andrew Trimble, Simon Zebo, Tommy Bowe, Rob Kearney

I'm counting Earls as a winger first, but obviously he can cover outside centre. I'm counting Zebo as a winger too, but obviously he can cover fullback. Payne can also cover fullback in an emergency. So feel there is adequate cover across every back line position.

[Sin é]

Dave Kearney is a dark horse too - played very well when he came on, is a Schmidt favorite and can play either wing plus full back.

I don't think he is dark at all considering the form of Bowe & Fitzgerald.

edit: Bowe is in the Aer Lingus ad (along with Murray, Kearney & Henshaw) so he will probably have to travel.

Other conumdrums: Adidass have made ads featuring Murray and Healy. They must be sweating out Healy's injury.

[Notch]

Remember that ad with Luke Fitzgerald and Tomas O'Leary someone was running before the last World Cup?

[Artful_Dodger]

Anybody see Rob Kearney's prank with a car dealer?

http://www.joe.ie/life-style/exclusive-video-rob-kearney-hilariously-channels-conor-mcgregor-in-hidden-camera-prank/508479

[rodders]

Here's where I am in terms of thinking about what the squad should be. Where there are fitness doubts over someone I put their replacement in brackets.

17 FORWARDS
Cian Healy (Dave Kilcoyne), Jack McGrath, Mike Ross, Martin Moore (Nathan White), Michael Bent, Rory Best, Richardt Strauss, Sean Cronin, Paul O'Connell (c), Devin Toner, Donnacha Ryan, Iain Henderson, Peter O'Mahony, Sean O'Brien, Chris Henry, Jordi Murphy, Jamie Heaslip

14 BACKS
Conor Murray, Eoin Reddan, Isaac Boss, Jonathon Sexton, Paddy Jackson, Ian Madigan, Robbie Henshaw, Darren Cave, Jared Payne, Keith Earls, Andrew Trimble, Simon Zebo, Tommy Bowe, Rob Kearney

I'm counting Earls as a winger first, but obviously he can cover outside centre. I'm counting Zebo as a winger too, but obviously he can cover fullback. Payne can also cover fullback in an emergency. So feel there is adequate cover across every back line position.

I really think that will be the squad 100% to be honest.

Definitely there will be 5 props and think we will leave out Jones.

The fact that the competition is in England means he can take some chances as bringing in a replacement will be easy enough - I'd say a lot of guys are there in loop to cover injury at this stage and Joe knows his 31.

[profitius]

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/analysis-opponents-have-discovered-a-major-weakness-in-irelands-defence/36379


Interesting article on how teams are targeting Mike Ross.

[Sin é]

Remember that ad with Luke Fitzgerald and Tomas O'Leary someone was running before the last World Cup?

Worse - David Wallace was in there as well (think it was Guinness).

[rodders]

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/analysis-opponents-have-discovered-a-major-weakness-in-irelands-defence/36379


Interesting article on how teams are targeting Mike Ross.

Title is misleading really - what it really highlights is the obvious - that the three 35 year old's on the pitch - two of them tight 5 forwards, were isolated and caught out in defense a few times.

Hardly a major weakness or specific to Ireland.

D'arcy will be replaced by Henshaw but a TH/Lock is always going to be a weak link if caught in open play by a back.

[Notch]

What do people think about the rumours that Schmidt is considering two scrum-halves and Madigan as an emergency 9?

[GunsGerms]

What do people think about the rumours that Schmidt is considering two scrum-halves and Madigan as an emergency 9?

I think that would be ok. Cant you call people up if there are injuries? Im sure Boss would be kept on standby.

[theslosty]

I don't see why 3 scrum halves must be taken if a third out-half is seen as optional. If anything your outhalf is more likely to pick up an injury.

If Murray or Reddan were forced to miss the France game or any of the knockout stages I imagine Boss would be called up. Madigan would be sufficient cover against any other opposition. He does have the necessary skills if not the experience, it shouldn't be another Bergamasco.

[Submachine]

What do people think about the rumours that Schmidt is considering two scrum-halves and Madigan as an emergency 9?

I think that would be ok. Cant you call people up if there are injuries? Im sure Boss would be kept on standby.

I think it would have to be more than an emergency 9. Madigan would have to get some gametime at 9 against the likes of Romania and Canada to lighten the load on the other two. Unless he gets some kind of run out against Wales at 9 it surely can't happen?

[Marshes]

What do people think about the rumours that Schmidt is considering two scrum-halves and Madigan as an emergency 9?

I think that would be ok. Cant you call people up if there are injuries? Im sure Boss would be kept on standby.

I think it would have to be more than an emergency 9. Madigan would have to get some gametime at 9 against the likes of Romania and Canada to lighten the load on the other two. Unless he gets some kind of run out against Wales at 9 it surely can't happen?

Why Madigan? Earls is probably the better 9. Sure if only we had 14 like him.

[Submachine]

What do people think about the rumours that Schmidt is considering two scrum-halves and Madigan as an emergency 9?

I think that would be ok. Cant you call people up if there are injuries? Im sure Boss would be kept on standby.

I think it would have to be more than an emergency 9. Madigan would have to get some gametime at 9 against the likes of Romania and Canada to lighten the load on the other two. Unless he gets some kind of run out against Wales at 9 it surely can't happen?

Why Madigan? Earls is probably the better 9. Sure if only we had 14 like him.

Earls is more of an instinctive 9 whereas Madigan is more of a footballing 9. You could also have Devin Toner slot in. He's a .......








.... six foot 9

[The Great Aukster]

How many nines can play other positions?

There are normally three nines taken because the position is too unique to sub a player into. Even those that have tried to convert from other positions generally haven't be great - TOL and Conor McPhilips spring to mind. Leicester tried it with Ian Humphreys in an injury crisis and that didn't go well.

Schmidt's thinking is sound enough as it gives another squad option and opens up the bench as well but without a fair bit of time there it is a major risk selecting an untried newbie.

[GunsGerms]

That was a good joke Submarine. I liked it.

[Marshes]

How many nines can play other positions?

There are normally three nines taken because the position is too unique to sub a player into. Even those that have tried to convert from other positions generally haven't be great - TOL and Conor McPhilips spring to mind. Leicester tried it with Ian Humphreys in an injury crisis and that didn't go well.

Schmidt's thinking is sound enough as it gives another squad option and opens up the bench as well but without a fair bit of time there it is a major risk selecting an untried newbie.

I think Marmion and Boss will be keeping match fit anyway with their clubs so I can't imagine Madigan would have to play there if Murray and Reddan got injured, they would just be replaced in the squad. It's not like red-eyeing Paddy Wallace to the other side of the world

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