England's RWC Preparations

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Original thread about to explode

https://www.606v2.com/t59064-englands-50-man-training-squad-for-rwc

I think Wray is better than Moriaty by a fair bit but I don't think you're too far away Bam. I'd say Wilson was marginally better.

Bambam personally I think he's better than

Burgess
Garvey
Wilson
Clifford
Slater
Moriarty
Treviranus

Perhaps you're right about Clark being better but I don't think he's as bad you make out. Clark did have a good season as you mention to be fair.

So in summary he is above average.

Think that Burgess,Wilson and Slater could surpass him next season though.

I'd contest he was better than Buregss, Garvey, Wilson, Clifford and Moriarty myself. Then you throw in Brown and Itoje and he is in the middle of the pack. Overall would anyone be looking forward to him in the England team? It would have to be an injury list of epic proportions. Oh and I'd probably want to see Vunipola as a 6 tried before.

Let's be honest, he's never going to play for England

The issue for Garvey, Fearns and Wray has largely been one of not having had a run of form and fitness at the point when an opportunity to break into the squad arose. It hasn't helped that they've been competing with three good talents at 6, two young, powerful players at 8 and in Robshaw a 7 whose form and fitness are very consistent.

The ship has probably sailed forbthose guys.

Clifford is in a different position. He's only really had half a season of first team rugby, so it would have been a very bold move to pick him for the RWC. But his inclusion in the team vs the BaaBaas shows he's on the radar. And his performance once picked (tackles 15/0, 2 turnovers, 1 try, 1 try created and two exceptional pieces of handling that turned bad passes into attacks) suggests he'll be bothering the selectors sooner rather than later. I expect him and Itoje to come into the senior side within the next 2 years and be fixtures for 2019 if they stay fit.

Wouldn't rule Lancaster calling Croft back into the squad to look at as he is back to full preseason training. As for young scrum halfs after WC Sam Harrisons could be as some have called for him to be picked ahead of Youngs at Tigers

The issue many have with Clark, beyond the obvious incident, is that he was selected in many England squads and the EPS when he didn't deserve to be.

Personally I wouldn't have him the 50 man squad as I think Ewers offers an different type of player at 6 who should have been considered and I rate Itoje extremely highly. Plus if Burgess is being considered it should be at blind side. However his form this season has been good and I can understand that he offers the type of flanker that the coaches like.

In past however his form wasn't good enough to warrant inclusion in the squad. On the occasion where he was selected as second row cover it was laughable in fact.

I don't personally rate Clark as highly as many do. In the above regard however I think he was badly managed by Lancaster. The best thing for him to have done following his ban was just play rugby out of the spotlight. Instead he was crowbarred into England squads at a time when many still harboured bad feelings towards him being on the pitch at all following the Hawkins incident. As such suggestions of favouritism and a fair bit of animosity formed, which for many fans still remain to this day I think.

Whether Clark does ever get selected for England or not, I think he has done an excellent job putting his behaviour and self-control problems behind him.   He has somehow managed to maintain his physical edge yet control himself when things get hot.  He has gone through a lot of counseling and embraced his problems and how to control them.  He is a bright young man who is really quite polite and regular off the pitch.  If he gets some luck and is selected we already know he combines with Tom Wood very well.  

I agree a lot of people can't forgive or get beyond his past.  But that is now a few years ago and seemingly will stay there.  The strange counterpoint is Hartley who seems destined to be unable to gain the upper hand over himself.

broadlandboy wrote:Wouldn't rule Lancaster calling Croft back into the squad to look at as he is back to full preseason training. As for young scrum halfs after WC Sam Harrisons  could be as some have called for him to be picked ahead of Youngs at Tigers

Harrison was excellent for Tigers last season but I would be very surprised if he replaces Youngs at any stage on a permanent basis.

From an England perspective if we want a young scrum half then Ben Youngs is still on 25! He's actually younger than Harrison - although there is only a matter of months between them. He is also younger than Simpson who is 27.

Looking at SHs to break through between now and the next world cup I am a big fan of Dan Robson and really hope he can kick on at Wasps. We could really do with a scrum half finding long term consistency as both Youngs and Care have been excellent for periods then poor in equal measure.

doctor_grey wrote:Whether Clark does ever get selected for England or not, I think he has done an excellent job putting his behaviour and self-control problems behind him.   He has somehow managed to maintain his physical edge yet control himself when things get hot.  He has gone through a lot of counseling and embraced his problems and how to control them.  He is a bright young man who is really quite polite and regular off the pitch.  If he gets some luck and is selected we already know he combines with Tom Wood very well.  

I agree a lot of people can't forgive or get past his past.  But that is now a few years ago and seemingly will stay there.  The strange counterpoint is Hartley who seems destined to be unable to gain the upper hand over himself.

I agree he has done well to avoid controversy since. Given how high profile the arm breaking was it will likely only require one indiscretion for the pressure to mount however. That also means that everyone was on the lookout for him to mess up again which can't have been an easy thing to deal with and he has dealt with well. Sympathy is of course limited when that negative attention was completely self inflicted though.

As for Hartley it really isn't an exaggeration to say his lack of self control has already rid him of what would likely be have been a crowning moment in his career with the Lions debacle. He's now lost himself another by giving away a starting shirt at a home world cup.

Agree. Hartley is a strange tragic figure. All the help, all the support, yet through his own indiscretions lost a strong chance to be a Lion, a nailed-on starter in a home RWC, and possibly more. For some reason Clark has taken his opportunity to straighten his life whereas Hartley is still struggling with himself. And they both have had excellent support structures around them. Hopefully he can finally help himself, if not for now then for life after Rugby.

Clark has two yellow cards in three years, both for technical/professional fouls, nothing for disciplinary issues.....

I'm less concerned about Clark not getting an England start than I am about Tom Wood not getting time as captain and open side at Test level.

Wood captained England on tour against Argentina in 2013, but did so from blind side. His open side partners in those two matches were Johnson and Kvesic, neither of whom will likely feature in the World Cup squad.

I don't think it's enough that Wood plays seven for Saints. If Robshaw gets crocked, then he'll be asked to take on captaincy responsibilities as well as packing down in an unfamiliar combination during an international.

It seems short-sighted not to get a look at how that might work out.

If Wood isn't next in line for the armband, or the seven shirt, then the same goes for whoever Lancaster does have in mind for those roles.

If Wood is the man, and Robshaw suffers an injury, then it wouldn't be too surprising to see Lancaster summon Clark as cover partly because he has an established partnership with him at Northampton.

BamBam wrote:Middle of the pack is probably pushing it. From each Prem side, a player who I would rate better as a 6 than Jackson bloody Wray

Bath - Burgess, Garvey
Saints - Wood, Clark
Falcons - Wilson (very underrated for me)
Quins - Clifford
Exeter - Ewers
Sale - Think Braid plays 6? If so, then definitely him
Tigers - Croft (when fit), Slater
Gloucester - Moriarty
Wasps - Haskell, Johnson
Irish - Treviranus has a very good case
Welsh - fair enough

Not at KP Bam Bam...we know exactly how good he is up here...

I don't think we'll see Hartley in an England shirt again.

If Youngs performs well enough - which I actually expect him to, however if not Jamie George is really developing and had a great season and LCD appears to be the future.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

BamBam wrote:Middle of the pack is probably pushing it. From each Prem side, a player who I would rate better as a 6 than Jackson bloody Wray

Bath - Burgess, Garvey
Saints - Wood, Clark
Falcons - Wilson (very underrated for me)
Quins - Clifford
Exeter - Ewers
Sale - Think Braid plays 6? If so, then definitely him
Tigers - Croft (when fit), Slater
Gloucester - Moriarty
Wasps - Haskell, Johnson
Irish - Treviranus has a very good case
Welsh - fair enough

Not at KP Bam Bam...we know exactly how good he is up here...

SSSHHHHHHH!!! We don't know who might be reading this! Wilson is more average than Mr Average competing in a middle of the road contest, no club should ever want to take such an average player off our hands. Average.

LCD reminds me of Banjo Thompson in many ways, great carrier with great hands and massive amounts of power around the park and in the scrum... if only he can be brought up to speed in the lineout!

In some ways he is the product of some of the long term planning that finally started filtering into English rugby a few years ago. Somebody realised that we had loads of good LH props and he would be wasted there. Now we have a athletic but powerful and solid no.2 on the rails rather than a LH fighting Matt Mullan for 3rd/ 4th place back up.

Rugby Fan wrote:I'm less concerned about Clark not getting an England start than I am about Tom Wood not getting time as captain and open side at Test level.

Wood captained England on tour against Argentina in 2013, but did so from blind side. His open side partners in those two matches were Johnson and Kvesic, neither of whom will likely feature in the World Cup squad.

I don't think it's enough that Wood plays seven for Saints. If Robshaw gets crocked, then he'll be asked to take on captaincy responsibilities as well as packing down in an unfamiliar combination during an international.

It seems short-sighted not to get a look at how that might work out.

If Wood isn't next in line for the armband, or the seven shirt, then the same goes for whoever Lancaster does have in mind for those roles.

If Wood is the man, and Robshaw suffers an injury, then it wouldn't be too surprising to see Lancaster summon Clark as cover partly because he has an established partnership with him at Northampton.

This worries me too. Where it might be difficult to say to your captain that he is sitting out of a game so that we can look at his replacements we are getting into a catastrophic territory should he be injured IMO. It gets to the point where I can't see a back-row without him in it, so much reliance on one player isn't a good thing.

Cumbrian wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

BamBam wrote:Middle of the pack is probably pushing it. From each Prem side, a player who I would rate better as a 6 than Jackson bloody Wray

Bath - Burgess, Garvey
Saints - Wood, Clark
Falcons - Wilson (very underrated for me)
Quins - Clifford
Exeter - Ewers
Sale - Think Braid plays 6? If so, then definitely him
Tigers - Croft (when fit), Slater
Gloucester - Moriarty
Wasps - Haskell, Johnson
Irish - Treviranus has a very good case
Welsh - fair enough

Not at KP Bam Bam...we know exactly how good he is up here...

SSSHHHHHHH!!! We don't know who might be reading this!  Wilson is more average than Mr Average competing in a middle of the road contest, no club should ever want to take such an average player off our hands. Average.

Totally agree....average. Do you hear that Leicester and Saints....A.V.E.R.A.G.E!!!

Cumbrian wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:I'm less concerned about Clark not getting an England start than I am about Tom Wood not getting time as captain and open side at Test level.

Wood captained England on tour against Argentina in 2013, but did so from blind side. His open side partners in those two matches were Johnson and Kvesic, neither of whom will likely feature in the World Cup squad.

I don't think it's enough that Wood plays seven for Saints. If Robshaw gets crocked, then he'll be asked to take on captaincy responsibilities as well as packing down in an unfamiliar combination during an international.

It seems short-sighted not to get a look at how that might work out.

If Wood isn't next in line for the armband, or the seven shirt, then the same goes for whoever Lancaster does have in mind for those roles.

If Wood is the man, and Robshaw suffers an injury, then it wouldn't be too surprising to see Lancaster summon Clark as cover partly because he has an established partnership with him at Northampton.

This worries me too.  Where it might be difficult to say to your captain that he is sitting out of a game so that we can look at his replacements we are getting into a catastrophic territory should he be injured IMO.  It gets to the point where I can't see a back-row without him in it, so much reliance on one player isn't a good thing.

And this is what I have said above...why has Lancaster not taken opportunities to test some of these players in a settled side. Clark, Kvesic etc
They have been in the squad but never had a run. Its continuously been Wood and Robshaw...with Haskell next in line.

I think Lancaster has done things absolutely right building a consistent settled side, and building up the caps and experience...BUT he's been a little naïve not having a little look at what else is there, and certain times through the season.

We've got 3 flankers that could all do a job at 6 or 7 and have a fair amount of experience in Robshaw, Haskell and Wood.

We're more than likely going to take 5 backrowers, possibly 6. If we go for 5 all of them have plenty of experience (3 flanks and Morgan/Billy). The extra backrower will more than likely be Easter, Croft or at a push Clark.

Sgt Pooly you say there are 3 flankers that can do a job.

Need them to do more than just a job vs the likes of Pocock,Hooper and Warburton.

I know I keep going back to that Ireland game but it was worrying how emphatically Ireland won the breakdown battle.

Perhaps Wood and Launchbury will shore up this area.

Lancaster might take more centres than backrowers!

"Do a job" as can play there to a high standard.

Hooper doesn't worry me at all as he spends more time on the wing than the breakdown. Aus will be a different beast with Pocock playing.

Pretty bold statement there sgt pooly as Robshaw as pretty much been Lancaster's only 7 during his tenure. We don't really know what Haskwood combo would do.

A Haskell-Wood - 6 and 7 doesn't feel with me confidence. Plus there is the issue of Haskell's ill discipline.

Lancaster has relied on Woodshaw combo for so long. Geordiefalcon you are right - not enough new players tried at 7.

We're bound to see a warm up game without Robshaw and possibly a group game as well.

We don't play BS/OS, we play more left/right so the numbers the flankers wear mean little imo. Wood/Haskell would have no problems, they're both good players.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:I'm less concerned about Clark not getting an England start than I am about Tom Wood not getting time as captain and open side at Test level.

Wood captained England on tour against Argentina in 2013, but did so from blind side. His open side partners in those two matches were Johnson and Kvesic, neither of whom will likely feature in the World Cup squad.

I don't think it's enough that Wood plays seven for Saints. If Robshaw gets crocked, then he'll be asked to take on captaincy responsibilities as well as packing down in an unfamiliar combination during an international.

It seems short-sighted not to get a look at how that might work out.

If Wood isn't next in line for the armband, or the seven shirt, then the same goes for whoever Lancaster does have in mind for those roles.

If Wood is the man, and Robshaw suffers an injury, then it wouldn't be too surprising to see Lancaster summon Clark as cover partly because he has an established partnership with him at Northampton.

This worries me too.  Where it might be difficult to say to your captain that he is sitting out of a game so that we can look at his replacements we are getting into a catastrophic territory should he be injured IMO.  It gets to the point where I can't see a back-row without him in it, so much reliance on one player isn't a good thing.

And this is what I have said above...why has Lancaster not taken opportunities to test some of these players in a settled side. Clark, Kvesic etc
They have been in the squad but never had a run. Its continuously been Wood and Robshaw...with Haskell next in line.

I think Lancaster has done things absolutely right building a consistent settled side, and building up the caps and experience...BUT he's been a little naïve not having a little look at what else is there, and certain times through the season.  

Agree with these points.  The ABs just slotted in their 4th or 5th choice out half this past weekend.  If they can do it, why not England?

Sgt Pooly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQaXRJXLfYg

James Haskell's YC vs France - just what England could do without when chasing a high points tally.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31250806

Running into the post shows that he still has some work to do on his awareness.

Haskell has the power and athleticism - just frustating that he doesn't sometimes have the nous to utilise it properly.

If Haskell does play in the RWC we need to see more from his Wales performance and less so from the Irish and French ones in particular!

Same with Attwood - both of them got punished the most when England played Ireland in terms of penalties given away.

I think that just demonstrates that even though we have players who can come in (most players yadda yadda..) there's a step down from your first choice.

The positions I'd like to see trialed a bit in the warm ups, think it's important we see a game where George and Cowan-Dickie are the starters and subs (either way), no Robshaw included, Slade at 12 and Watson at full back.

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:I'm less concerned about Clark not getting an England start than I am about Tom Wood not getting time as captain and open side at Test level.

Wood captained England on tour against Argentina in 2013, but did so from blind side. His open side partners in those two matches were Johnson and Kvesic, neither of whom will likely feature in the World Cup squad.

I don't think it's enough that Wood plays seven for Saints. If Robshaw gets crocked, then he'll be asked to take on captaincy responsibilities as well as packing down in an unfamiliar combination during an international.

It seems short-sighted not to get a look at how that might work out.

If Wood isn't next in line for the armband, or the seven shirt, then the same goes for whoever Lancaster does have in mind for those roles.

If Wood is the man, and Robshaw suffers an injury, then it wouldn't be too surprising to see Lancaster summon Clark as cover partly because he has an established partnership with him at Northampton.

This worries me too.  Where it might be difficult to say to your captain that he is sitting out of a game so that we can look at his replacements we are getting into a catastrophic territory should he be injured IMO.  It gets to the point where I can't see a back-row without him in it, so much reliance on one player isn't a good thing.

And this is what I have said above...why has Lancaster not taken opportunities to test some of these players in a settled side. Clark, Kvesic etc
They have been in the squad but never had a run. Its continuously been Wood and Robshaw...with Haskell next in line.

I think Lancaster has done things absolutely right building a consistent settled side, and building up the caps and experience...BUT he's been a little naïve not having a little look at what else is there, and certain times through the season.  

Agree with these points.  The ABs just slotted in their 4th or 5th choice out half this past weekend.  If they can do it, why not England?  

Because our 4th or 5th choice players in pretty much every position are pants.

Disagree Jimpy...I think our 4/5 th choices are not far off the 1st team level. AND therein lies the issue.....not enough at the next level up.

As to the friendlies
Surely the time for trialling is over. He should have done this through the whole of the 6n or the AI's etc.....
These friendlies is to nail everyone down and get some familiarity in the 1st choice team. The only trialling should be places of uncertainty like hooker etc.

Didn't Tuilagi come in about the time of the warm ups?

Isn't our 4th choice FH Cips? Or possibly Myler, either way I don't think either would be a total disaster.

I'm not sure Robshaw will be rested during the group games, maybe taken off early but I reckon baring injury, he will start every WC game. Bomber surely now knows his first choice pack (it picks itself I think), in reality there are only a few positions up for grabs (FH and wing I think).

Did anyone see that article about Grant Fox? He works as an outside consultant to NZ, his job is to watch matches separately from management and give an unbiased opinion on players to encourage selection debates. An interesting idea I thought.

Lancaster has a free consultancy right here...

We're top level armchair pundits

GeordieFalcon wrote:Lancaster has a free consultancy right here...

We're top level armchair pundits

We certainly can offer a different perspective. And we are totally unbiased of course, especially when it comes to Saracens players...

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Lancaster has a free consultancy right here...

We're top level armchair pundits

We certainly can offer a different perspective. And we are totally unbiased of course, especially when it comes to Saracens players...

Look, Saracens have won the AP, so it goes without saying that every single EQP in the squad should be selected for England at the highest level. They bully everyone and are rarely bullied, some call them deities, but most simply accept that we should be in awe of their personal achievements - many at such a tender age.

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Lancaster has a free consultancy right here...

We're top level armchair pundits

We certainly can offer a different perspective. And we are totally unbiased of course, especially when it comes to Saracens players...

lostinwales how many Saracens players have I said should be starting for England currently?

Maybe 3? Barritt,Billy and Mako - hardly earth shattering selections though I do acknowledge that Marler would be fine at 1. too.

I wouldn't start the likes of Wigglesworth,Farrell,Kruis,Goode as of now for example.

The only real difference is arguing about fringe players. I think Saracens fringe players compare favourably.

Jimpy from your over the top comment - you would think I would pick a England XV with just Saracens players, not true at all.

Why can't you just drop the spitefulness? I know it's not in your nature as you like to try and point score even when you disagree with something.

E.g. you dislike Clark because he hurt a Tigers player (of course if it was another team's player I doubt you would care) but for the sake of arguing will spitefully agree with a Northampton fan who is supporting his fellow club mate Clark (that's not bias of course).

I am accused of bias though if you look in the mirror you would see that you are very biased Tigers fan indeed - crowing about coming 3rd in the league etc.

Try not to take everything we say too seriously.

lostinwales Jimpy is a WUM who wants that reaction. Also to be honest I don't know how biased you actually think I am.

Anyway back on topic: Starting WC Side:

1 Marler
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Billy or Ben

9 Youngs
10 Ford
11 Nowell
12 Barritt
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

How far can that team go?

And post World Cup:
1 Marler
2 LCD
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes
6 Itoje / Burgess
7 Robshaw
8 Billy or Ben

9 Youngs
10 Ford
11 Nowell
12 Stephenson
13 Joseph / Manu
14 Wade
15 Watson

Could make it to the final but equally might not make the quarter finals.

T.Youngs performance will be important - particularly in the set piece.

Also how Wood and Robshaw do at the breakdown.

As for the 2nd team -set piece for LCD would be important. Plus dependent on how that backline would settle down.

England will need to find something extra to match the likes of NZ and SA.

I'd honestly have May over Watson but I know there are plenty who wouldn't.

I just think May works harder runs faster and occasionally tackles, and makes kick chase a practical tactic. Watson hopefully has a big future ahead of him, but right now I'd go with May.

I really struggle with May, he just seems so dim on a rugby field. His defence is pretty bad and the amount of times he runs nowhere.

beshocked wrote:Could make it to the final but equally might not make the quarter finals.

My bet is England will lose to Australia, then beat SA in the QF and play NZ in the SF where they will win by 22 points only to lose to Ireland in the final in extra time after a Devon Toner intercept try seals it for the men in green.

rodders wrote:

beshocked wrote:Could make it to the final but equally might not make the quarter finals.

My bet is England will lose to Australia, then beat SA in the QF and play NZ in the SF where they will win by 22 points only to lose to Ireland in the final in extra time after a Devon Toner intercept try seals it for the men in green.

rodders if you're convinced go down to the bookies and put some money on an Ireland RWC win.

Ireland at 15/2.

To be fair Schmidt has done a good job with Ireland so far - Ireland are very well disciplined.

Ireland could well make the final but I think they would come unstuck against SA or NZ.

Let's be honest wing has not been a traditional strength of Lancaster - I have said this many times - is it the players themselves or the coaching? Bit of both? I certainly do think England do sometimes allow their wingers to be exposed. A defensive pattern can be implemented which minimises the flaws IMO.

I am not particularly impressed by the defence of May,Ashton,Yarde or Watson.

As friendly advice, I wouldn't put too much of the rodders life savings on that bet!

Anyway, if and its a big if, England can beat both Australia and Wales, I think the semis or the final is on the cards. Australia are looking rather ominous I think, it will be really interesting to see how England perform in the summer warm up games.

Australia are looking a mighty tough opposition.

Wales will be massively tough aswell.

I'm not sure why Austrailia are suddenly this great side??

They scraped a lucky win against SA and looked poor for the majority of the Arg game. Their set piece is a shambles and their half backs are struggling for form. On top of this they are kicking at 50% or so

Sgt Pooly a lucky win vs SA is still a win - more than England have done vs SA in the last few years!

Still ran out 34-9 winners vs Argentina.

If they are kicking at 50% and still winning surely that's a positive for Australia?

If England had those two results under our belt we would be very pleased.

geordiefalcon it's a tough group agreed. Injuries could well have an impact too - I would say Wales are most vulnerable and still feel that if one team will not make the 1/4s it's Wales.