Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2015-16-17

[Sin é]

First topic message reminder :

What it says in the title - a place to put all bits of news not worth starting a thread for the Four Proud Provinces of Ireland such as new signings, interviews that maybe of interest to others etc.

I've just added on 17 as its not a huge thread.

[Golden]

"Leinster coach Leo Cullen will definitely be adding to a modest influx of Robbie Henshaw, Jamison Gibson-Park and Ian Nagle in the coming months."

Thank god for that.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/champions-cup-lowdown-irish-pools-broken-down-players-to-watch-and-betting-guide-1.2704250

Of interest to all Provinces (presuming that the Provinces are dealt with the same way) - Ulster's Annual Report. The IRFU has really cut its funding (£1,591,044)

https://i.servimg.com/u/f35/16/53/77/41/screen10.png

So Ulster's gate receipts are down from last year? Was part of the Stadium closed off for the renovations I though all that was finished before the start of the season?

[Sin é]

The gate receipts are not down much - probably just down to not making the Champs Cup.

Merchandising income is well up.

[Golden]

Ye not much of a difference but was expecting them to be up with increased capacity at Ravenhill. They didn't get out of the groups last year either so wouldn't have made much of a difference.

[Sin é]

Ye not much of a difference but was expecting them to be up with increased capacity at Ravenhill. They didn't get out of the groups last year either so wouldn't have made much of a difference.

Then it must have been the home semi in the PRO12 that would have made the difference. Great to see such a lot of money being made from pourage and match day catering, corporate entertainment.

Thats why its a good idea to have your own stadium!

[profitius]

Munster named their academy today. 7 new players in but some names absent like Ben Betts, Poland, Kiernan, Brown and Mintern. All those were involved with the Ireland u20s.


There's a rumour that Betts might be on his way to France.

[Sin é]

It seems Kiernan was offered a place, but turned it down to Remain in Cork.

Jean Kleyn (from Western Province) seems to be on his way to Munster. Big lad, 6'8", 22 years of age, 17 Super Rugby Caps - could be the next CJ. From vidoes, he looks to be a very good carrier.

Interesting in the newspaper article, it said that Paul O'Connell is Munster's Recruitment Consultant!

[neilthom7]

It seems Kiernan was offered a place, but turned it down to Remain in Cork.

Jean Kleyn (from Western Province) seems to be on his way to Munster. Big lad, 6'8", 22 years of age, 17 Super Rugby Caps - could be the next CJ. From vidoes, he looks to be a very good carrier.

Interesting in the newspaper article, it said that Paul O'Connell is Munster's Recruitment Consultant!

That's got to be one of the world's most aggressive recruitment consultants, mind you if he said you are signing with Munster you wou need to be brave to argue with him

[mikey_dragon]

So Leinster have managed to blag the expertise of Graham Henry for a brief period I see. Hopefully that makes Cullen an above average coach.

[thebandwagonsociety]

Leinster have signed up Niall Morris (formerly Leicester, formerly Leinster).
Feels like a panic signing to cover Luke Fitz enforced retirement. Would have preferred Cullen put more faith in the quality backs coming through the academy than making this signing. Should Leinster have a clause that prevents Cullen from signing any player that he played at Leinster?

[Welly]

Ben Betts is he any good?

[Hazel Sapling]

"Leinster coach Leo Cullen will definitely be adding to a modest influx of Robbie Henshaw, Jamison Gibson-Park and Ian Nagle in the coming months."

Thank god for that.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/champions-cup-lowdown-irish-pools-broken-down-players-to-watch-and-betting-guide-1.2704250

Of interest to all Provinces (presuming that the Provinces are dealt with the same way) - Ulster's Annual Report. The IRFU has really cut its funding (£1,591,044)

https://i.servimg.com/u/f35/16/53/77/41/screen10.png

So Ulster's gate receipts are down from last year? Was part of the Stadium closed off for the renovations I though all that was finished before the start of the season?

Sorry just saw this. That £4.15 million professional rugby expenses are the players salaries? Do the provinces pay a proportion of the centrally contracted players with the IRFU or is that purely IRFU? I assume it would be a direct payment to the player rather than routed through Ulster.

[Guest]

Ye not much of a difference but was expecting them to be up with increased capacity at Ravenhill. They didn't get out of the groups last year either so wouldn't have made much of a difference.

World Cup had a negative impact on gate receipts.

[profitius]

Ben Betts is he any good?

Yeah looks a good prospect. Solid scrummager and good workrate around the pitch.


Unbelievably Munster didn't offer him an academy place until it was too late... but then again it should be no surprise that Munster mess things up again.

[Sin é]

Ben Betts is he any good?

Yeah looks a good prospect. Solid scrummager and good workrate around the pitch.


Unbelievably Munster didn't offer him an academy place until it was too late... but then again it should be no surprise that Munster mess things up again.

Not quite true. He was already in Munster sub academy. Munster offered him an Academy Contract at €8,000 per annum. Leicester came in with an offer of a 1 year contract at £20,000.

Hard to fathom why Leicester want him (or any Irish player) as they are always going to want to play for Ireland. Surely there must be plenty of 20 year old props in England?

He is very mobile around the pitch. From Munsterfans I believe, the word is that the IRFU think he is a bit small to be a TH (he is about 5'10 or 11). He is 3rd choice Ireland U20s TH.

[Sin é]

[quote="Hazel Sapling"]

"Leinster coach Leo Cullen will definitely be adding to a modest influx of Robbie Henshaw, Jamison Gibson-Park and Ian Nagle in the coming months."

Thank god for that.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/champions-cup-lowdown-irish-pools-broken-down-players-to-watch-and-betting-guide-1.2704250

Of interest to all Provinces (presuming that the Provinces are dealt with the same way) - Ulster's Annual Report. The IRFU has really cut its funding (£1,591,044)

https://i.servimg.com/u/f35/16/53/77/41/screen10.png

Sorry just saw this. That £4.15 million professional rugby expenses are the players salaries? Do the provinces pay a proportion of the centrally contracted players with the IRFU or is that purely IRFU? I assume it would be a direct payment to the player rather than routed through Ulster.

As far as I know, the IRFU pay the full amount on the central contracts. The Province can top them up I think (as happened with Sexton, O'Brien & Heaslip with Denis O'Brien/Bank of Ireland top-ups). IRFU conduct negotiations and the Province has no input. Munster got very frustrated over Keith Earls negotiations as their hands were tied (and Nucifora was on his holidays in Australia when he nearly signed for Saracens - Earls wanted a 3 year contract and IRFU would only offer 2).

[PhilBB]

Sorry just saw this. That £4.15 million professional rugby expenses are the players salaries? Do the provinces pay a proportion of the centrally contracted players with the IRFU or is that purely IRFU? I assume it would be a direct payment to the player rather than routed through Ulster.

£4.15m was what Ulster spent on the salaries.

The IRFU contribute on top of that €90,000 towards 17 player contracts and €50,000 for the rest.

Add in the National Contracts and you get a wage bill of between £6m and £6.5m, in line with the English cap.

[Dai Llewod]

So Ulster's annual report confirms that their squad wages total circa £6m - £6.5m a year? Yowzers.

[Sin é]

The Annual Report states that the grant from the IRFU is £1,591. If there was any other income/grant, they would state it in the accounts.

I'd imagine though the reason the grant is so low is to avoid tax being paid on the profit that Ulster are making. The other Provinces are probably in receipt of more money, but I expect the cost of players would be at a simlar level.

[Sin é]

So Ulster's annual report confirms that their squad wages total circa £6m - £6.5m a year? Yowzers.

No. It says its Pro Wage expenses are £4,146.

[PhilBB]

The Annual Report states that the grant from the IRFU is £1,591. If there was any other income/grant, they would state it in the accounts.

I'd imagine though the reason the grant is so low is to avoid tax being paid on the profit that Ulster are making. The other Provinces are probably in receipt of more money, but I expect the cost of players would be at a simlar level.

The grant has nothing to do with wages.

Contracts are held by the IRFU. They pay all of the players. What is shown in the Ulster Annual Report and the Munster Annual Report is the contribution from the branches towards those wages.

[PhilBB]

So Ulster's annual report confirms that their squad wages total circa £6m - £6.5m a year? Yowzers.

No. It says its Pro Wage expenses are £4,146.

But Ulster don't pay all of the wages, as you know. They don't hold the player contracts, as you know.

So don't try misleading. Face up to the truth.

[Sin é]

So Ulster's annual report confirms that their squad wages total circa £6m - £6.5m a year? Yowzers.

No. It says its Pro Wage expenses are £4,146.

But Ulster don't pay all of the wages, as you know. They don't hold the player contracts, as you know.

So don't try misleading. Face up to the truth.

Unless it has changed in the last 2 or 3 years, that is not so.

The IRFU contribute a certain amount to the Provinces for each player depending on the type of contract they have (i.e., development, full etc). Its a set amount. It just wouldn't work otherwise. The Provinces and the IRFU would have to show any income flows between Province and IRFU. For example, if the IRFU are paying Piutau / Aki there would be a lot of money going to the IRFU from both Ulster and Connacht and that would have to be noted in the accounts somewhere.

The IRFU conduct negotiations for central contracts with no input from the Provinces. The Provinces negotiate the Provincial contacts with the players or their agents themselves. Whatever goes on between the IRFU and the ROI based Provinces as to how the accounts are presented, Ulster is based in a separate tax district so they need to provide audited accounts.

[PhilBB]

The IRFU contribute a certain amount to the Provinces for each player depending on the type of contract they have (i.e., development, full etc). Its a set amount. It just wouldn't work otherwise. The Provinces and the IRFU would have to show any income flows between Province and IRFU. For example, if the IRFU are paying Piutau / Aki there would be a lot of money going to the IRFU from both Ulster and Connacht and that would have to be noted in the accounts somewhere.

The IRFU conduct negotiations for central contracts with no input from the Provinces. The Provinces negotiate the Provincial contacts with the players or their agents themselves. Whatever goes on between the IRFU and the ROI based Provinces as to how the accounts are presented, Ulster is based in a separate tax district so they need to provide audited accounts.

The IRFU do not contribute TO the Branches as the contracts are held by the IRFU and paid by the IRFU. The Branches contribute TO the IRFU.

The Branches pay the non-IRFU players directly, I understand.

Ulster is a members group. It doesn't have to do as you say.

You have that all wrong, in other words. You know that the IRFU hold the contracts, you know the IRFU pay the players. You know how much the IRFU contribute towards those wages.

I've pained it all out above. Factually.

[Pete330v2]

So what's your problem PhillBB?
What's the point you're attempting to make because there's a huge amount of 'don't care' floating about here.

[Sin é]

The IRFU contribute a certain amount to the Provinces for each player depending on the type of contract they have (i.e., development, full etc). Its a set amount. It just wouldn't work otherwise. The Provinces and the IRFU would have to show any income flows between Province and IRFU. For example, if the IRFU are paying Piutau / Aki there would be a lot of money going to the IRFU from both Ulster and Connacht and that would have to be noted in the accounts somewhere.

The IRFU conduct negotiations for central contracts with no input from the Provinces. The Provinces negotiate the Provincial contacts with the players or their agents themselves. Whatever goes on between the IRFU and the ROI based Provinces as to how the accounts are presented, Ulster is based in a separate tax district so they need to provide audited accounts.

The IRFU do not contribute TO the Branches as the contracts are held by the IRFU and paid by the IRFU. The Branches contribute TO the IRFU.

The Branches pay the non-IRFU players directly, I understand.

Ulster is a members group. It doesn't have to do as you say.

You have that all wrong, in other words. You know that the IRFU hold the contracts, you know the IRFU pay the players. You know how much the IRFU contribute towards those wages.

I've pained it all out above. Factually.

Would you just go and actually read the audited annual report please and stop coming out with this total cowpat.

[SecretFly]

So what's your problem PhillBB?
What's the point you're attempting to make because there's a huge amount of 'don't care' floating about here.

He's letting you all know that he has been having a good pre-season. He's training well - he might even have added a few more skills to his already lightening speed and evasionary prowess. Time will tell

He's fit and ready for the new season ahead.

God Help us All!!!

[PhilBB]

Would you just go and actually read the audited annual report please and stop coming out with this total cowpat.

Oh give over. I've read it and the IRFU Annual Report and Browne's words on it.

I suggest that you do some reading.

To start with: think who owns the contracts of the players. That's who pays their salaries.

[PhilBB]

So what's your problem PhillBB?
What's the point you're attempting to make because there's a huge amount of 'don't care' floating about here.

No problem at all.

I'm just pointing out the wages spent in Ireland.

Some seem to have an issue accepting reality.

[PhilBB]

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/philip-browne-interview-trying-to-spread-the-jam-evenly-387047.html

"The players are owned and controlled by the IRFU, the revenue streams aren’t sufficient to cover the costs of running the professional game — so whoever is going to invest in professional rugby in Ireland is essentially writing cheques for €1m and continue doing that until they get bored"

From Browne, thus proving the huge money in the IRFU Annual Report for Professional Game Costs includes the player wages.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/leinster-face-chill-financial-winds-if-denied-riches-from-europe-1.2438647

"The union pays €90,000 towards 17 of these contracts, and €50,000 toward the remainder"

Just to underline that Sin e has no argument.

[No 7&1/2]

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/philip-browne-interview-trying-to-spread-the-jam-evenly-387047.html

"The players are owned and controlled by the IRFU, the revenue streams aren’t sufficient to cover the costs of running the professional game — so whoever is going to invest in professional rugby in Ireland is essentially writing cheques for €1m and continue doing that until they get bored"

From Browne, thus proving the huge money in the IRFU Annual Report for Professional Game Costs includes the player wages.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/leinster-face-chill-financial-winds-if-denied-riches-from-europe-1.2438647

"The union pays €90,000 towards 17 of these contracts, and €50,000 toward the remainder"

Just to underline that Sin e has no argument.

So as he says in your link you can't really compare the different payment models.

[PhilBB]

So as he says in your link you can't really compare the different payment models.

What's the relevance of that comment?

[No 7&1/2]

So as he says in your link you can't really compare the different payment models.

What's the relevance of that comment?

It's about Irish provicial funding and the fact its used differently for them than say the English or French clubs. Relevant as this is the Irish provinces thread and a follow on comment from a link you yourself posted.

[Dai Llewod]

So Ulster's annual report confirms that their squad wages total circa £6m - £6.5m a year? Yowzers.

No. It says its Pro Wage expenses are £4,146.

So you honestly believe that Ulster are spending the same amount of money on their squad as the likes of Treviso, Dragons etc. and the Ulster squad's payroll is equal to half a million pounds less than the Welsh pro team salary cap?

Honestly now?

[thebandwagonsociety]

Sorry just saw this. That £4.15 million professional rugby expenses are the players salaries? Do the provinces pay a proportion of the centrally contracted players with the IRFU or is that purely IRFU? I assume it would be a direct payment to the player rather than routed through Ulster.

£4.15m was what Ulster spent on the salaries.

The IRFU contribute on top of that €90,000 towards 17 player contracts and €50,000 for the rest.

Add in the National Contracts and you get a wage bill of between £6m and £6.5m, in line with the English cap.

It depends Phil. First question I'd have is 'professional rugby expenses' and how is it defined? Are the coaches wages in there? Is the travel and hotels for the professional players in there also? What about training costs? It's been assumed here that the 'professional rugby expenses' line item is solely and purely player salaries which might not be fully correct.

The contribution (or grant if you will) that Ulster receive is based on €90k for 17 players and €50 for the rest. If we say a squad of 27 eligible players in total that would be €1,560,000 and €500,000 which would €2,060,000 (average fx rate for year ended 30 april 2016 would be 0.73814) so £1.52 million. That would look very like the 'grants' income on the face of the income and expenditure account. If that is the case then the grant is included, which could mean the £4.15m might include the £1.5m odd from the IRFU.

Totally open to correction of course, doesn't seem clear to me that this £6.5m ulster wage amount is a certainty. Could still be £4.15m (or lower if coaching staff or other costs are in there).

Would it be in line with the English cap either way?

English cap for next season is a base of £6.5m plus 500k for academy plus 400k for injury jokers plus two excluded players (unknown how much those could be). So £7.4 million plus two excluded players contracts. English teams get a credit of 80k per player in the EPS also this coming season. Taken from;
http://www.premiershiprugby.com/premiership/structure/salary_cap.php#RKW67GjVSHM8VGmm.97

[SecretFly]

Brexit,
Wales reaching Euro semi-finals,
Black men shot by American police,
American police shot by snipers,
Turkey airport attacks,
Boris being knifed by Gove
Cameron being knifed by Gove
Leadsom almost being knifed by Gove
Corbyn refusing to Leave
Eagle refusing to stand against him.
Trump having a laugh.
....

All this, and Phill is still on IRFU funding structures as the main issue that exercises his mind above all other things in this crazy world..............

Get over it, Phil.  Just get over it.  The IRFU in cahoots with Provincial profits (such as they are in this up and down world) can pay more for their Players to stay and play than currently Wales Regions can?  This is the point - the eternal point?

So be it, move on.  I'm happy that Irish rugby is trying to compete and keep up - using our methods. No apologies. Dog eat dog world, isn't that the ideal of your Professionalism definition. The strong survive, the weak perish?

How are the Welsh organising themselves to challenge this?  How are the Welsh planning to close the gap on the English, the French and the Irish?  How are the Welsh planning to catch up on the English, the French and the Irish?  What funding methods and unique investment strategies are they looking into in cahoots with their Union that might help serve strengthen more their ability to pay for high class players to stay, high class foreigners to come in and high class coaches to be interested?

You are stuck in a rut.  Get out of the rut.

[Hazel Sapling]

Okay well was not expecting a small war from that question

From the sounds of it Ulster either have close to £5m in wages from the £4.15m listed and the national contracts of Best, Bowe and Trimble or the £4.15m listed + £2m plus (from grants and national contracts) including coaches salaries. Looking at their squad I would guess it is the higher figure (can't imagine Henderson, McCloskey, Gilroy, Jackson, Pienaar, Coetzee and Piautau are cheap)

[Don Alfonso]

Sorry just saw this. That £4.15 million professional rugby expenses are the players salaries? Do the provinces pay a proportion of the centrally contracted players with the IRFU or is that purely IRFU? I assume it would be a direct payment to the player rather than routed through Ulster.

£4.15m was what Ulster spent on the salaries.

The IRFU contribute on top of that €90,000 towards 17 player contracts and €50,000 for the rest.

Add in the National Contracts and you get a wage bill of between £6m and £6.5m, in line with the English cap.

It depends Phil. First question I'd have is 'professional rugby expenses' and how is it defined? Are the coaches wages in there? Is the travel and hotels for the professional players in there also? What about training costs?  It's been assumed here that the 'professional rugby expenses' line item is solely and purely player salaries which might not be fully correct.

The contribution (or grant if you will) that Ulster receive is based on €90k for 17 players and €50 for the rest.  If we say a squad of 27 eligible players in total that would be €1,560,000 and €500,000 which would €2,060,000 (average fx rate for year ended 30 april 2016 would be 0.73814) so £1.52 million.  That would look very like the 'grants' income on the face of the income and expenditure account.  If that is the case then the grant is included, which could mean the £4.15m might include the £1.5m odd from the IRFU.

Totally open to correction of course, doesn't seem clear to me that this £6.5m ulster wage amount is a certainty. Could still be £4.15m (or lower if coaching staff or other costs are in there).

Would it be in line with the English cap either way?

English cap for next season is a base of £6.5m plus 500k for academy plus 400k for injury jokers plus two excluded players (unknown how much those could be). So £7.4 million plus two excluded players contracts.  English teams get a credit of 80k per player in the EPS also this coming season. Taken from;
http://www.premiershiprugby.com/premiership/structure/salary_cap.php#RKW67GjVSHM8VGmm.97

Are many of the English clubs in line with the cap?

[brennomac]

OMG I take a break from this site for a couple of weeks to focus all my attention on Euro 2016 and I come back and people are still talking about this sh1te........

[Rory_Gallagher]

No... just Phil stirring things up again. And I wonder if Chunky has a new identity (Dai Llewod).

[Pete330v2]

It's not even Phil stirring things up, it's just confusing as to what point he's trying to make. Pointing out the spending of the Irish provinces? Why? It's like pointing at the sky and shouting 'IT'S UP THERE'. Obvious, factual but utterly meaningless.....a bit like ChunkyPhilBB

[Notch]

It's not even Phil stirring things up, it's just confusing as to what point he's trying to make. Pointing out the spending of the Irish provinces? Why? It's like pointing at the sky and shouting 'IT'S UP THERE'. Obvious, factual but utterly meaningless.....a bit like ChunkyPhilBB

Xenophobia and/or racism is in evidence when you judge one group of people by much, much more stringent standards than any other group of people. Double standards are the heart of prejudice. Xenophobes and racists are not worth your time. Do not engage with Phil.

[George Carlin]

OMG I take a break from this site for a couple of weeks to focus all my attention on Euro 2016 and I come back and people are still talking about this sh1te........

Me too. And Ulster still haven't signed another loose forward. What the hell is going on?

[Sin é]

POC staying in Munster. Working with Munster Academy.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/22798.php#.V4Ni7CMrL-k

[SecretFly]

Nothing to do with Ulster moneybucks insider dealings with the IRFU.................. but we'll just about accept that as being on-topic, Sin.  

This is your final warning, though.

[PhilBB]

It's about Irish provicial funding and the fact its used differently for them than say the English or French clubs. Relevant as this is the Irish provinces thread and a follow on comment from a link you yourself posted.

But the context was not just 'funding', so its another attempt at a pointless obfuscation from you.

[No 7&1/2]

No, just a related point Phil.

[PhilBB]

It depends Phil. First question I'd have is 'professional rugby expenses' and how is it defined? Are the coaches wages in there? Is the travel and hotels for the professional players in there also? What about training costs?  It's been assumed here that the 'professional rugby expenses' line item is solely and purely player salaries which might not be fully correct.

The contribution (or grant if you will) that Ulster receive is based on €90k for 17 players and €50 for the rest.  If we say a squad of 27 eligible players in total that would be €1,560,000 and €500,000 which would €2,060,000 (average fx rate for year ended 30 april 2016 would be 0.73814) so £1.52 million.  That would look very like the 'grants' income on the face of the income and expenditure account.  If that is the case then the grant is included, which could mean the £4.15m might include the £1.5m odd from the IRFU.

Totally open to correction of course, doesn't seem clear to me that this £6.5m ulster wage amount is a certainty. Could still be £4.15m (or lower if coaching staff or other costs are in there).

Would it be in line with the English cap either way?

English cap for next season is a base of £6.5m plus 500k for academy plus 400k for injury jokers plus two excluded players (unknown how much those could be). So £7.4 million plus two excluded players contracts.  English teams get a credit of 80k per player in the EPS also this coming season. Taken from;
http://www.premiershiprugby.com/premiership/structure/salary_cap.php#RKW67GjVSHM8VGmm.97

The £1.5m is not included in there.

As for what is in there? "Professional Game Match Expenses" of £961k would take up your travel costs plus a lot more. "General Rugby Expenses" of £405k would take up your training costs.

As for coaching costs, let's be generous and make that £500k.

Why have you mentioned 27 players? They have over 40.

And my point about it being in line with the cap is obviously historical: you're comparing last season's figures in Ulster with next year's amended English Salary Cap. You need to look at the same timeframe to compare.

There's no way on God's earth that the salary for the players is £4m. Let's be honest about that. It's obviously over £6m.

[PhilBB]

No, just a related point Phil.

Completely unrelated.

[PhilBB]

It's not even Phil stirring things up, it's just confusing as to what point he's trying to make. Pointing out the spending of the Irish provinces? Why? It's like pointing at the sky and shouting 'IT'S UP THERE'. Obvious, factual but utterly meaningless.....a bit like ChunkyPhilBB

What an odd point.

In a league where the salary spends are so different, it is important to note the difference between spends as that obviously has an impact on the expected performance of the participants.

I'd have thought that was a blindingly obvious and obviously meaningful point to make.

[PhilBB]

Xenophobia and/or racism is in evidence when you judge one group of people by much, much more stringent standards than any other group of people. Double standards are the heart of prejudice. Xenophobes and racists are not worth your time. Do not engage with Phil.

Just for clarity here, and to avoid all doubt, are you accusing me of either xenophobia or racism?

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