Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2015-16-17

[Sin é]

First topic message reminder :

What it says in the title - a place to put all bits of news not worth starting a thread for the Four Proud Provinces of Ireland such as new signings, interviews that maybe of interest to others etc.

I've just added on 17 as its not a huge thread.

[No 7&1/2]

Related to the link you posted Phil. This is a thread about Irish provinces, so yeah not off topic. You can't really compare the figures.

[No 7&1/2]

It's not even Phil stirring things up, it's just confusing as to what point he's trying to make. Pointing out the spending of the Irish provinces? Why? It's like pointing at the sky and shouting 'IT'S UP THERE'. Obvious, factual but utterly meaningless.....a bit like ChunkyPhilBB

What an odd point.

In a league where the salary spends are so different, it is important to note the difference between spends as that obviously has an impact on the expected performance of the participants.

I'd have thought that was a blindingly obvious and obviously meaningful point to make.

You were just complaining that I was off topic yet you now talk of the same thing.

[Notch]

Xenophobia and/or racism is in evidence when you judge one group of people by much, much more stringent standards than any other group of people. Double standards are the heart of prejudice. Xenophobes and racists are not worth your time. Do not engage with Phil.

Just for clarity here, and to avoid all doubt, are you accusing me of either xenophobia or racism?

Yes.

[PhilBB]

It's not even Phil stirring things up, it's just confusing as to what point he's trying to make. Pointing out the spending of the Irish provinces? Why? It's like pointing at the sky and shouting 'IT'S UP THERE'. Obvious, factual but utterly meaningless.....a bit like ChunkyPhilBB

What an odd point.

In a league where the salary spends are so different, it is important to note the difference between spends as that obviously has an impact on the expected performance of the participants.

I'd have thought that was a blindingly obvious and obviously meaningful point to make.

You were just complaining that I was off topic yet you now talk of the same thing.

What? I was answering Pete's daft post. How can that be off topic?

[PhilBB]

Xenophobia and/or racism is in evidence when you judge one group of people by much, much more stringent standards than any other group of people. Double standards are the heart of prejudice. Xenophobes and racists are not worth your time. Do not engage with Phil.

Just for clarity here, and to avoid all doubt, are you accusing me of either xenophobia or racism?

Yes.

Thanks.

What's the escalation process on this board for such actions?

[SecretFly]

In a league where the salary spends are so different, it is important to note the difference between spends as that obviously has an impact on the expected performance of the participants.

It may have an impact but who cares? What possible point is being made here?
Professional League. - one side or sides have more spending power than others - so what? Dog eat dog. Toulon v Zebre. Your very idea of Perfect Professional ideals at work.

[PhilBB]

It may have an impact but who cares?  What possible point is being made here?  
Professional League. - one side or sides have more spending power than others - so what?  Dog eat dog.  Toulon v Zebre.  Your very idea of Perfect Professional ideals at work.  

Who cares? The folk following the game in Wales, Champ.

Thanks.

[Notch]

Thanks.

What's the escalation process on this board for such actions?

This is a discussion forum, so ideally we advance our arguments in a civilised way. You may get in touch with the Site Admins to ensure this process ins respected. I would be remiss if I did not share my reasoning below.

1) Xenohobia is dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries. For instance, if one persistently talks down and insults a group from another country they might be perceived as xenophobic.

2) Racism is the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. For instance, if one believes that all the organisations responsible for running a specific part of any given society are more likely to be corrupt than their direct equivalents in another society they might be perceived as racist.

3) A secondary definition of racism is prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior. If one insists on repeatedly coming to places where the ingroup of the society he is xenophobic towards congregate to share his opinions in a deliberately aggressive or antagonistic manner he may fit this bill.

4) Racism hinges on the definition of a race as distinct from another race. Of course, we are all the one race; the human race. And hence the idea of race is subjective and artificial. However, it is my belief that there has been significant racial segregation between the Irish and British over the past few hundred years that for the purposes of this discussion we can treat the Irish as a 'race' in their own right as opposed to an ethnicity. See the below for a good overview of how racist British attitudes towards the Irish have been expressed in the past;

http://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/niallodowd/Charlie-Hebdo-cartoons-similar-to-when-Irish-were-seen-as-apes-.html

You are welcome to keep posting here, and you are welcome to continue to share your opinions. However, it is within the rights of other posters to share their opinions on your opinions and I include myself in that.

[SecretFly]

It may have an impact but who cares?  What possible point is being made here?  
Professional League. - one side or sides have more spending power than others - so what?  Dog eat dog.  Toulon v Zebre.  Your very idea of Perfect Professional ideals at work.  

Who cares? The folk following the game in Wales, Champ.

Thanks.

No they don't.  You told us they don't give a damn earlier in the Summer..... pal.

You also said you like the idea that a side like Toulon can be Toulon and that a proper professional League shouldn't have to give a damn about a side like a struggling Zebre or Dragons, let's say.  The weak being swallowed up by the strong - all is right with the Philtropic view of the Professional rugby world.  Right?

Or are you jumping over that debating fence again?

[PhilBB]

You are welcome to keep posting here, and you are welcome to continue to share your opinions. However, it is within the rights of other posters to share their opinions on your opinions and I include myself in that.

Well, if we can share opinions on other's opinions then I'd have a field day with you.

[PhilBB]

No they don't.  You told us they don't give a damn earlier in the Summer..... pal.

You also said you like the idea that a side like Toulon can be Toulon and that a proper professional League shouldn't have to give a damn about a side like a struggling Zebre or Dragons, let's say.  The weak being swallowed up by the strong - all is right with the Philtropic view of the Professional rugby world.  Right?

Or are you jumping over that debating fence again?

You seem to have conflated caring for the league as an entity and taking an interest in how the Welsh teams get on and why they perform as they do. That's a really odd thing to do.

I'm all for the IRFU spending a fortune on wages. What I do find funny is the outrage that is caused when proving that the IRFU do, and have for many years, spend a fortune.

It's almost as though - and we can include some followers of Edinburgh and Glasgow in this, it seems - folk are embarrassed by the spend on wages.

Shhhh, let's not talk about money..... in the professional sport of rugby union.

[Notch]

You are welcome to keep posting here, and you are welcome to continue to share your opinions. However, it is within the rights of other posters to share their opinions on your opinions and I include myself in that.

Well, if we can share opinions on other's opinions then I'd have a field day with you.

Go ahead. Of course, I can't guarantee anyone will be interested in reading anything you have to say. That part of the members role is strictly voluntary.

[SecretFly]

No they don't.  You told us they don't give a damn earlier in the Summer..... pal.

You also said you like the idea that a side like Toulon can be Toulon and that a proper professional League shouldn't have to give a damn about a side like a struggling Zebre or Dragons, let's say.  The weak being swallowed up by the strong - all is right with the Philtropic view of the Professional rugby world.  Right?

Or are you jumping over that debating fence again?

You seem to have conflated caring for the league as an entity and taking an interest in how the Welsh teams get on and why they perform as they do. That's a really odd thing to do.

I'm all for the IRFU spending a fortune on wages. What I do find funny is the outrage that is caused when proving that the IRFU do, and have for many years, spend a fortune.

It's almost as though - and we can include some followers of Edinburgh and Glasgow in this, it seems - folk are embarrassed by the spend on wages.

Shhhh, let's not talk about money..... in the professional sport of rugby union.

So you're confirming for me?  - You have popped over to the other side of the fence for a while?

For a while, you'll no longer be the harsh, objective, non-sentimentalist, non-empathetic Rugby Professionalism idealist.  For a while it's back to lamenting the struggles of Welsh rugby when set against the 'unfair' megabucks of the IRFU?

[No 7&1/2]

No they don't.  You told us they don't give a damn earlier in the Summer..... pal.

You also said you like the idea that a side like Toulon can be Toulon and that a proper professional League shouldn't have to give a damn about a side like a struggling Zebre or Dragons, let's say.  The weak being swallowed up by the strong - all is right with the Philtropic view of the Professional rugby world.  Right?

Or are you jumping over that debating fence again?

You seem to have conflated caring for the league as an entity and taking an interest in how the Welsh teams get on and why they perform as they do. That's a really odd thing to do.

I'm all for the IRFU spending a fortune on wages. What I do find funny is the outrage that is caused when proving that the IRFU do, and have for many years, spend a fortune.

It's almost as though - and we can include some followers of Edinburgh and Glasgow in this, it seems - folk are embarrassed by the spend on wages.

Shhhh, let's not talk about money..... in the professional sport of rugby union.

You need to go back and re read the link you posted.

[Guest]

No they don't.  You told us they don't give a damn earlier in the Summer..... pal.

You also said you like the idea that a side like Toulon can be Toulon and that a proper professional League shouldn't have to give a damn about a side like a struggling Zebre or Dragons, let's say.  The weak being swallowed up by the strong - all is right with the Philtropic view of the Professional rugby world.  Right?

Or are you jumping over that debating fence again?

You seem to have conflated caring for the league as an entity and taking an interest in how the Welsh teams get on and why they perform as they do. That's a really odd thing to do.

I'm all for the IRFU spending a fortune on wages. What I do find funny is the outrage that is caused when proving that the IRFU do, and have for many years, spend a fortune.

It's almost as though - and we can include some followers of Edinburgh and Glasgow in this, it seems - folk are embarrassed by the spend on wages.

Shhhh, let's not talk about money..... in the professional sport of rugby union.

Why do you invest so much time on a topic that you're all for? So you're all for the IRFU spend, you're not all for the Regions spend .... why not invest all that energy into why the Regions are failing?

[No 7&1/2]

He's covered that too Munchkin, it's because currently the English game aren't subsidising them.

[Guest]

Ah, so it's the fault of the English, not the IRFU. Phil supports the IRFU wage levels

[PhilBB]

Why do you invest so much time on a topic that you're all for? So you're all for the IRFU spend, you're not all for the Regions spend .... why not invest all that energy into why the Regions are failing?

Simply because the two issues are related.

PRW do less well because their salary bill is lower. In order to get people to understand this, it's necessary to prove that the Irish spend more.

See? Simple really.

[PhilBB]

He's covered that too Munchkin, it's because currently the English game aren't subsidising them.

Ooh, another fib. Just stick to being disruptively inaccurate, you're much better at that than trying to be funny.

[PhilBB]

So you're confirming for me?  - You have popped over to the other side of the fence for a while?

For a while, you'll no longer be the harsh, objective, non-sentimentalist, non-empathetic Rugby Professionalism idealist.  For a while it's back to lamenting the struggles of Welsh rugby when set against the 'unfair' megabucks of the IRFU?

Often, I have no idea what the hell you are on about. And, guess what, this is just another one of those occasions.

[No 7&1/2]

He's covered that too Munchkin, it's because currently the English game aren't subsidising them.

Ooh, another fib. Just stick to being disruptively inaccurate, you're much better at that than trying to be funny.

Sorry, your solution is for the English game to subsidise them.

[PhilBB]

Sorry, your solution is for the English game to subsidise them.

Drivel

[No 7&1/2]

You've changed your mind then? That's what you were hoping for. To jump in with the English and share the mega bucks.

[PhilBB]

You've changed your mind then? That's what you were hoping for. To jump in with the English and share the mega bucks.

Which doesn't equate to 'subsidise'.

[No 7&1/2]

Yes it does. You want the English to share the money they make with the Welsh.

[No 7&1/2]

As you've said the Welsh can't keep up with the rest. And incidentally this is what you call off topic on an Irish thread.

[SecretFly]

So you're confirming for me?  - You have popped over to the other side of the fence for a while?

For a while, you'll no longer be the harsh, objective, non-sentimentalist, non-empathetic Rugby Professionalism idealist.  For a while it's back to lamenting the struggles of Welsh rugby when set against the 'unfair' megabucks of the IRFU?

Often, I have no idea what the hell you are on about. And, guess what, this is just another one of those occasions.

You do. Of course you do.

You just don't feel comfortable knowing that I have a long memory for two completely divergent opinions coming from one 606 guy.

So you do the 'HOW ODD' trick. It doesn't work - on any of us, Phil. You've used that 'HOW ODD' trick too often. Nobody buys it.

[PhilBB]

Yes it does. You want the English to share the money they make with the Welsh.

Nope. Try again. I guess the obfuscation didn't give you enough fun so now it's off to downline Liesville.

Really, really odd message board contribution.

[No 7&1/2]

Ah, you're back to avoiding again Phil!

[PhilBB]

You do.  Of course you do.

You just don't feel comfortable knowing that I have a long memory for two completely divergent opinions coming from one 606 guy.  

So you do the 'HOW ODD' trick.   It doesn't work - on any of us, Phil.  You've used that 'HOW ODD' trick too often.  Nobody buys it.

You may have a long memory but you seem to have a short understanding and a shorter still ability to write coherently.

Good to see you've appointed yourself a spokesperson, however. You cling to that safety in numbers.

From my angle, it's a pleasure to see the narrative move from 'we don't spend more than others' to 'who cares if we spend more than others' to 'let's try to take a pop at the bloke who has shown us that we spend more than others'. A real pleasure.

[PhilBB]

Ah, you're back to avoiding again Phil!

Really? What's been avoided?

[No 7&1/2]

Phil, you're still ignoring the link you posted and what it actually said in regards to comparing spend.

[PhilBB]

Phil, you're still ignoring the link you posted and what it actually said in regards to comparing spend.

Oh dear, we've moved on to fabrication.

Go on, then, explain what's been avoided. You know, give some details. Let's see what you come up with.

[No 7&1/2]

So as he says in your link you can't really compare the different payment models.

What's the relevance of that comment?

It has relevance now then. You can't really compare the Irish spend here directly.

[SecretFly]

PRW do less well because their salary bill is lower. In order to get people to understand this, it's necessary to prove that the Irish spend more.

See? Simple really.

Glad we got that far....................... one more time.

So on to now dealing on another thread with 'How Welsh Regions rise their Salary Bill'.

And - if any poster on such a thread must again have the IRFU position clarified - just send them here to re-read this thread?

Yes?  

On to a Welsh Funding Thread?

[No 7&1/2]

Even if we say the Irish, French and English spend more, so what? They have more successful set ups, waiting for handouts ain't going to help the Welsh.

[No 7&1/2]

PRW do less well because their salary bill is lower. In order to get people to understand this, it's necessary to prove that the Irish spend more.

See? Simple really.

Glad we got that far....................... one more time.

So on to now dealing on another thread with 'How Welsh Regions rise their Salary Bill'.

And - if any poster on such a thread must again have the IRFU position clarified - just send them here to re-read this thread?

Yes?  

On to a Welsh Funding Thread?

True, well off topic for an Irish thread.

[PhilBB]

It has relevance now then. You can't really compare the Irish spend here directly.

If you read the Annual Report, yes you can.

[PhilBB]

Glad we got that far....................... one more time.

So on to now dealing on another thread with 'How Welsh Regions rise their Salary Bill'.

And - if any poster on such a thread must again have the IRFU position clarified - just send them here to re-read this thread?

Yes?  

On to a Welsh Funding Thread?

Superb, so - you, as the Self Appointed Spokesperson for All Followers of Irish Rugby on 606 - are happy to accept that the Irish Provincial Wage Bill is significantly higher than the spend by PRW teams.

Yes?

[PhilBB]

Even if we say the Irish, French and English spend more, so what? They have more successful set ups, waiting for handouts ain't going to help the Welsh.

So what? It's the starting point to noting why Welsh performances have been as they have since 2010.

It seems that we're finally getting some movement on this, however, as the narrative is nicely moving on to the 'so what?' stage. Which, of course, is funny.

[No 7&1/2]

It has relevance now then. You can't really compare the Irish spend here directly.

If you read the Annual Report, yes you can.

Right, so the article and guy you were using to back you up can't be trusted then brill.

[SecretFly]

You may have a long memory but you seem to have a short understanding and a shorter still ability to write coherently.

Good to see you've appointed yourself a spokesperson, however. You cling to that safety in numbers.

From my angle, it's a pleasure to see the narrative move from 'we don't spend more than others' to 'who cares if we spend more than others' to 'let's try to take a pop at the bloke who has shown us that we spend more than others'. A real pleasure.

More evasion?  tut tut.   How odd!  

IRFU spends more than the Welsh on the Regions.  Fact.  It's never been any other way from me.  I've always said you're right.  But you don't like debating with people that agree with your points as then you're forced to move on to the next stage.

So, the next stage - when everyone admits that the IRFU spends more than the Regions:  

Why should a Professional League care?  You don't when you speak of the AP or Top14.  So why should we care with Pro12?

[No 7&1/2]

Even if we say the Irish, French and English spend more, so what? They have more successful set ups, waiting for handouts ain't going to help the Welsh.

So what? It's the starting point to noting why Welsh performances have been as they have since 2010.

It seems that we're finally getting some movement on this, however, as the narrative is nicely moving on to the 'so what?' stage. Which, of course, is funny.

No I'd still contest the spend you talk of as you can't even tell me what Saracens spent of wages last year or the year before, let alone the whole English league. I'm saying lets just go along with it to move the discussion along as you can't back it up. Yes, the Welsh suck I'll acknowledge that. But like fly says that's for the Welsh Wages Charity thread.

[PhilBB]

It has relevance now then. You can't really compare the Irish spend here directly.

If you read the Annual Report, yes you can.

Right, so the article and guy you were using to back you up can't be trusted then brill.

Ooh, no details. Just a 2+2=5 post.

Typically odd posting.

[SecretFly]

Glad we got that far....................... one more time.

So on to now dealing on another thread with 'How Welsh Regions rise their Salary Bill'.

And - if any poster on such a thread must again have the IRFU position clarified - just send them here to re-read this thread?

Yes?  

On to a Welsh Funding Thread?

Superb, so - you, as the Self Appointed Spokesperson for All Followers of Irish Rugby on 606 - are happy to accept that the Irish Provincial Wage Bill is significantly higher than the spend by PRW teams.

Yes?

Find the many times when I've already agreed with that point. You're good at Research aren't you?

The we'll move onto the next Stage. The "What are we going to do with Wales?" Stage.

[PhilBB]

IRFU spends more than the Welsh on the Regions.  Fact.  It's never been any other way from me.  I've always said you're right.  But you don't like debating with people that agree with your points as then you're forced to move on to the next stage.

So, the next stage - when everyone admits that the IRFU spends more than the Regions:  

Why should a Professional League care?  You don't when you speak of the AP or Top14.  So why should we care with Pro12?

Great, so it's agreed that the Irish provinces have higher wage bills than their Welsh opponents. Good news. We got there.

Why should a Professional League care? It shouldn't.

But why ask that completely unrelated question? It seems as though you've assumed something that isn't there. My point has never been about 'caring', but clarity.

And, as you've appointed yourself the Spokesperson for All, it seems that clarity has been achieved.

So, from the position of some just a few months ago, real progress has been made.

Thank you.

[No 7&1/2]

It has relevance now then. You can't really compare the Irish spend here directly.

If you read the Annual Report, yes you can.

Right, so the article and guy you were using to back you up can't be trusted then brill.

Ooh, no details. Just a 2+2=5 post.

Typically odd posting.

You quoted a link, now say he's speaking inaccurately (lying?).

[SecretFly]

IRFU spends more than the Welsh on the Regions.  Fact.  It's never been any other way from me.  I've always said you're right.  But you don't like debating with people that agree with your points as then you're forced to move on to the next stage.

So, the next stage - when everyone admits that the IRFU spends more than the Regions:  

Why should a Professional League care?  You don't when you speak of the AP or Top14.  So why should we care with Pro12?

Great, so it's agreed that the Irish provinces have higher wage bills than their Welsh opponents. Good news. We got there.

Why should a Professional League care? It shouldn't.

But why ask that completely unrelated question? It seems as though you've assumed something that isn't there. My point has never been about 'caring', but clarity.

And, as you've appointed yourself the Spokesperson for All, it seems that clarity has been achieved.

So, from the position of some just a few months ago, real progress has been made.

Thank you.

No need for Thanks, Phil.  So glad you've finally been able to decipher my odd posts and finally actually see what has been written many many times before.

So without further ado - as we're all Thanking each other for finally getting a few points, let's move on to the next Stage:  Getting Welsh Regions up to Funding Speed to Compete.

Any ideas?  _  In a new thread?

[Guest]

Why do you invest so much time on a topic that you're all for? So you're all for the IRFU spend, you're not all for the Regions spend .... why not invest all that energy into why the Regions are failing?

Simply because the two issues are related.

PRW do less well because their salary bill is lower. In order to get people to understand this, it's necessary to prove that the Irish spend more.

See? Simple really.

Have any of the Irish posters ever denied the Provinces get more funding?

As Fly has pointed out, what next? We're agreed that the Provinces have more funding than the Regions, so how do you want to progress from that established fact?

My guess is that instead of discussing ways for the Regions to generate more funds you may look across the bridge for your answer? If my guess is correct, you will have the same problem of the Regions not keeping up with the competition.

[PhilBB]

You quoted a link, now say he's speaking inaccurately (lying?).

Nope.

Try giving some details if you're actually trying to seek clarity.

Else, it just looks like you're being deliberately contrary and odd.

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