Irish Provinces NEWS & GOSSIP thread 2015-16-17

[Sin é]

First topic message reminder :

What it says in the title - a place to put all bits of news not worth starting a thread for the Four Proud Provinces of Ireland such as new signings, interviews that maybe of interest to others etc.

I've just added on 17 as its not a huge thread.

[PhilBB]

No need for Thanks, Phil.  So glad you've finally been able to decipher my odd posts and finally actually see what has been written many many times before.

So without further ado - as we're all Thanking each other for finally getting a few points, let's move on to the next Stage:  Getting Welsh Regions up to Funding Speed to Compete.

Any ideas?  _  In a new thread?

Great stuff.

By all means start a new thread. Or look at the last post of mine in the Gwent thread.

[PhilBB]

Have any of the Irish posters ever denied the Provinces get more funding?

As Fly has pointed out, what next? We're agreed that the Provinces have more funding than the Regions, so how do you want to progress from that established fact?

My guess is that instead of discussing ways for the Regions to generate more funds you may look across the bridge for your answer? If my guess is correct, you will have the same problem of the Regions not keeping up with the competition.

Don't conflate wages with funding. This point is about wages. The IRFU spend more on wages. Salaries of players. Wages.

[No 7&1/2]

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/philip-browne-interview-trying-to-spread-the-jam-evenly-387047.html

"The players are owned and controlled by the IRFU, the revenue streams aren’t sufficient to cover the costs of running the professional game — so whoever is going to invest in professional rugby in Ireland is essentially writing cheques for €1m and continue doing that until they get bored"

From Browne, thus proving the huge money in the IRFU Annual Report for Professional Game Costs includes the player wages.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/european-cup/leinster-face-chill-financial-winds-if-denied-riches-from-europe-1.2438647

"The union pays €90,000 towards 17 of these contracts, and €50,000 toward the remainder"

Just to underline that Sin e has no argument.

'The great danger is that we spread the jam too thin, in which case the tide lowers for everyone. Everything can’t just be focused here in Leinster, but in the current economic climate, it is becoming tricky. Also, the provinces are running the amateur game - you aren’t comparing apples with apples when people start equating the provinces to the French Top 14 clubs'

You don't really know the breakdown, just as you don't know how much each Premiership club has spent each year on wages. So it's all a bit finger in the air. But overall more money gives you a good head start but can be overcome like Leicester City this year. And more money on wages doesn't mean those players are better e.g Alen Boksic on 80000 a week a Middlesbrough.

[Guest]

Have any of the Irish posters ever denied the Provinces get more funding?

As Fly has pointed out, what next? We're agreed that the Provinces have more funding than the Regions, so how do you want to progress from that established fact?

My guess is that instead of discussing ways for the Regions to generate more funds you may look across the bridge for your answer? If my guess is correct, you will have the same problem of the Regions not keeping up with the competition.

Don't conflate wages with funding. This point is about wages. The IRFU spend more on wages. Salaries of players. Wages.

Ok, I will swap 'funding' for 'wage':

As Fly has pointed out, what next? We're agreed that the Provinces have a higher wage than the Regions, so how do you want to progress from that established fact?

My guess is that instead of discussing ways for the Regions to generate more wages you may look across the bridge for your answer? If my guess is correct, you will have the same problem of the Regions not keeping up with the competition.

[PhilBB]

'The great danger is that we spread the jam too thin, in which case the tide lowers for everyone. Everything can’t just be focused here in Leinster, but in the current economic climate, it is becoming tricky. Also, the provinces are running the amateur game - you aren’t comparing apples with apples when people start equating the provinces to the French Top 14 clubs'

You don't really know the breakdown, just as you don't know how much each Premiership club has spent each year on wages. So it's all a bit finger in the air. But overall more money gives you a good head start but can be overcome like Leicester City this year. And more money on wages doesn't mean those players are better e.g Alen Boksic on 80000 a week a Middlesbrough.

You clearly haven't read the income and expenditure categories, and notes on the Accounts, of the Ulster Rugby Annual Review.

Read those and you will see that the wages element can be easily approximated.

[PhilBB]

We're agreed that the Provinces have a higher wage than the Regions, so how do you want to progress from that established fact?

Great. Job done in this thread.

There are lots of threads on the Welsh angle if you'd like to contribute to those but, for now, we seem all agreed that the Irish Branch Player Salary bill is considerably higher than the spend in Wales and has been above the English cap.

This is great progress.

Now we've got to the root of how the IRFU funded the HEC wins and why, post 2010, PRW teams have been below the Irish teams in the PrO'12.

Thank you all.

[SecretFly]

So without further ado - as we're all Thanking each other for finally getting a few points, let's move on to the next Stage:  Getting Welsh Regions up to Funding Speed to Compete.

Any ideas?  _  In a new thread?

Great stuff.

By all means start a new thread. Or look at the last post of mine in the Gwent thread.

Grand. Now you can go back to these few pages when you forget what the conclusions have been made in the IRFU funding debate.

[No 7&1/2]

'The great danger is that we spread the jam too thin, in which case the tide lowers for everyone. Everything can’t just be focused here in Leinster, but in the current economic climate, it is becoming tricky. Also, the provinces are running the amateur game - you aren’t comparing apples with apples when people start equating the provinces to the French Top 14 clubs'

You don't really know the breakdown, just as you don't know how much each Premiership club has spent each year on wages. So it's all a bit finger in the air. But overall more money gives you a good head start but can be overcome like Leicester City this year. And more money on wages doesn't mean those players are better e.g Alen Boksic on 80000 a week a Middlesbrough.

You clearly haven't read the income and expenditure categories, and notes on the Accounts, of the Ulster Rugby Annual Review.

Read those and you will see that the wages element can be easily approximated.

Ah, approximated. Finger in the air. I have asked a fair few times for the wage spend of Saracens, take it you can't find that.

[PhilBB]

Ah, approximated. Finger in the air. I have asked a fair few times for the wage spend of Saracens, take it you can't find that.

I've always noted that you won't get the spend separated in the accounts. I remain unsure as to why you can't remember the previous answers each time you ask the question.

[Guest]

We're agreed that the Provinces have a higher wage than the Regions, so how do you want to progress from that established fact?

Great. Job done in this thread.

There are lots of threads on the Welsh angle if you'd like to contribute to those but, for now, we seem all agreed that the Irish Branch Player Salary bill is considerably higher than the spend in Wales and has been above the English cap.

This is great progress.

Now we've got to the root of how the IRFU funded the HEC wins and why, post 2010, PRW teams have been below the Irish teams in the PrO'12.

Thank you all.

So, we have established that the Provinces have a higher wage level than the Regions. We have established that you are all for the Provinces having a higher wage level. You don't actually have an issue with the IRFU/Provinces. Your issue is with the lower wage level of the Regions, and you are actively engaged in discussion on how that may be addressed.

As you say, job done. Time to move from discussion about the Provinces wage level, and focus on how the Regions can increase their wage level.

Good, I will hold you to that.

[SecretFly]

Now we've got to the root of how the IRFU funded the HEC wins and why, post 2010, PRW teams have been below the Irish teams in the PrO'12.

Thank you all.

AHA! Just as I thought. It was never ever a dull, official accounting Pro12 debate after all.

It was pure traditional tribal blood and guts envy and spite. The Irish won things coz they had more money than anyone else (the cheats). But Toulon and Saracens win because they have very well organised ownership structures, have great players, are the bees-knees, are an example to all clubs wanting to succeed and fair dues to them, God be good to them , an' all.

[PhilBB]

 The Irish won things coz they had more money than anyone else (the cheats).

Not cheats at all. That's another of your false assumptions.

[No 7&1/2]

Ah, approximated. Finger in the air. I have asked a fair few times for the wage spend of Saracens, take it you can't find that.

I've always noted that you won't get the spend separated in the accounts. I remain unsure as to why you can't remember the previous answers each time you ask the question.

Because you keep comparing wage spend and you're not sure what the spend for each team is.

[SecretFly]

 The Irish won things coz they had more money than anyone else (the cheats).

Not cheats at all. That's another of your false assumptions.

Come on Phil, that was the truest heartfelt statement on any subject you've made in your time here.  With all the conclusions being made you finally upped and admitted your truest feelings in a few short lines.

Saracens, Toulon = Good noble winning.
Leinster, Munster = Dubious winning = Not on merit.

[PhilBB]

Because you keep comparing wage spend and you're not sure what the spend for each team is.

But it is possible to know the approximate figures involved, so what's your point?

[PhilBB]

Come on Phil, that was the truest heartfelt statement on any subject you've made in your time here.  With all the conclusions being made you finally upped and admitted your truest feelings in a few short lines.

Saracens, Toulon = Good noble winning.
Leinster, Munster = Dubious winning = Not on merit.

Only to the degree that neither Leinster nor Munster can a) fully reap the rewards from their success and b) fully take responsibility for their failings.

[No 7&1/2]

Because you keep comparing wage spend and you're not sure what the spend for each team is.

But it is possible to know the approximate figures involved, so what's your point?

Not really. What approximately did Saracens spend 2 years ago?

[PhilBB]

Because you keep comparing wage spend and you're not sure what the spend for each team is.

But it is possible to know the approximate figures involved, so what's your point?

Not really. What approximately did Saracens spend 2 years ago?

You can Google that as well as I can. Or you can visit companiehouse as well as I can.

So it's quite easy to find the approximate spend. Thanks.

[No 7&1/2]

So you can't answer the question then Phil? Not asking for an actual spend anymore, just your rough guess.

[SecretFly]

Come on Phil, that was the truest heartfelt statement on any subject you've made in your time here.  With all the conclusions being made you finally upped and admitted your truest feelings in a few short lines.

Saracens, Toulon = Good noble winning.
Leinster, Munster = Dubious winning = Not on merit.

Only to the degree that neither Leinster nor Munster can a) fully reap the rewards from their success and b) fully take responsibility for their failings.

Away you go again....  back to the funding models - and your outright obsession with the IRFU.  

Here's to more Provincial a) + b) in the years ahead, hopefully.

Which letter are the Welsh Regions on right now?  b)?

[PhilBB]

So you can't answer the question then Phil? Not asking for an actual spend anymore, just your rough guess.

I can answer it as well as you can. You put the effort in.

[PhilBB]

Away you go again....  back to the funding models - and your outright obsession with the IRFU.  

Here's to more Provincial a) + b) in the years ahead, hopefully.

Which letter are the Welsh Regions on right now?  b)?

"outright obsession" is an odd phrase. Almost as though you're playing the man.

I've no issue with you enjoying the model you follow. All power to your elbow.

All I've done is highlight that model as many seemed to think that things were won on pure good fortune and that players stayed in Ireland in order to 'manage their workload' etc.

[No 7&1/2]

So you can't answer the question then Phil? Not asking for an actual spend anymore, just your rough guess.

I can answer it as well as you can. You put the effort in.

I couldn't say how much they spent. No one can. Which goes back to the limitations of comparing wages.

[PhilBB]

I couldn't say how much they spent. No one can. Which goes back to the limitations of comparing wages.

You can find if they spent to the cap. You can find out the cap. You can read their accounts, you can read the words of Edward Griffiths.

You can do lots.

And, in so doing, you can find out the wages spend as approximates and then you can legitimately say which teams are in which bracket.

So, if you're interested in the spend of English clubs then - following your lead - I suggest that you stop polluting this thread with your own version of the 2+2=5 game.

This thread has reached a pleasant conclusion that notes by how much the Irish outspent the Welsh and, therefore, has identified the major source of the reasoning for the relevant improved performance over the Welsh by the Irish teams since 2010.

Thanks.

[No 7&1/2]

I couldn't say how much they spent. No one can. Which goes back to the limitations of comparing wages.

You can find if they spent to the cap. You can find out the cap. You can read their accounts, you can read the words of Edward Griffiths.

You can do lots.

And, in so doing, you can find out the wages spend as approximates and then you can legitimately say which teams are in which bracket.

So, if you're interested in the spend of English clubs then - following your lead - I suggest that you stop polluting this thread with your own version of the 2+2=5 game.

This thread has reached a pleasant conclusion that notes by how much the Irish outspent the Welsh and, therefore, has identified the major source of the reasoning for the relevant improved performance over the Welsh by the Irish teams since 2010.

Thanks.

No you can't. It's widely thought that they outspent the cap that year, not a jot written down saying they did (or none that's going to see the light of day); unless you have something? Or you could just try and deflect?

[PhilBB]

No you can't. It's widely thought that they outspent the cap that year, not a jot written down saying they did (or none that's going to see the light of day); unless you have something? Or you could just try and deflect?

New thread, Champ.

[No 7&1/2]

Ah, complete sidestep again.

[PhilBB]

Ah, complete sidestep again.

You're the one moaning about non-Irish issues in this thread. At least try to be consistent.

[No 7&1/2]

Swoosh, as the point is avoided again. Well played Phil.

[No 7&1/2]

Sorry just saw this. That £4.15 million professional rugby expenses are the players salaries? Do the provinces pay a proportion of the centrally contracted players with the IRFU or is that purely IRFU? I assume it would be a direct payment to the player rather than routed through Ulster.

£4.15m was what Ulster spent on the salaries.

The IRFU contribute on top of that €90,000 towards 17 player contracts and €50,000 for the rest.

Add in the National Contracts and you get a wage bill of between £6m and £6.5m, in line with the English cap.

My question is related to this by the way. No point in comparing against an upper limit of a cap if you can give an approximate of what the top of the tree team actually spent.

[PhilBB]

Swoosh, as the point is avoided again. Well played Phil.

The point about Irish rugby wages has been proven and agreed.

If you want to write about the English system, please feel free to start a thread.

My point here was to note what Ulster spent in relation to Welsh teams. That's been agreed and noted, so nothing has been avoided. If you'd like to discuss another country's relative spend then knock yourself bandy.


Somewhere else.

[PhilBB]

No point in comparing against an upper limit of a cap if you can give an approximate of what the top of the tree team actually spent.

You're conflating the cap with what some are alleged to have spent in breaking it. You know full well that 10 AP clubs publicly stated they didn't break the cap.

Therefore, you may see no point in comparing Ulster's salary spend to the AP cap but that's your prerogative.

[SecretFly]

Away you go again....  back to the funding models - and your outright obsession with the IRFU.  

Here's to more Provincial a) + b) in the years ahead, hopefully.

Which letter are the Welsh Regions on right now?  b)?

"outright obsession" is an odd phrase. Almost as though you're playing the man.

I've no issue with you enjoying the model you follow. All power to your elbow.

All I've done is highlight that model as many seemed to think that things were won on pure good fortune and that players stayed in Ireland in order to 'manage their workload' etc.

Of course I'm playing the man - how odd?  What do you take me for?  An English politician, afraid to address the real issue lest they be pulled over the ropes by the PC mob?

You're a real guy, I'm talking fully and directly to you.  I'm playing the man. You have an obsession with IRFU - I don't need to say it, it's your posting history that proves it.



What allowed Munster and Leinster to win?  Good players, good coaching, good funding and management of thereof, good foreign player choosers, good rugby.

[BamBam]

Well done Phil, you've won the internet today

Apparently

[PhilBB]

You're a real guy, I'm talking fully and directly to you.  I'm playing the man.  You have an obsession with IRFU - I don't need to say it, it's your posting history that proves it.

What allowed Munster and Leinster to win?  Good players, good coaching, good funding and management of thereof, good foreign player choosers, good rugby.

You'd be a pretty stupid man to associate an 'obsession' with a relatively small number of posts on a message board. Are you really that stupid?

What allowed Munster and Leinster to win? Primarily the IRFU signing up the players. And paying for them.

[PhilBB]

Well done Phil, you've won the internet today

Apparently

Thanks, BamBam. I didn't realise it was so easy.

[SecretFly]

You're a real guy, I'm talking fully and directly to you.  I'm playing the man.  You have an obsession with IRFU - I don't need to say it, it's your posting history that proves it.

What allowed Munster and Leinster to win?  Good players, good coaching, good funding and management of thereof, good foreign player choosers, good rugby.

You'd be a pretty stupid man to associate an 'obsession' with a relatively small number of posts on a message board. Are you really that stupid?

What allowed Munster and Leinster to win? Primarily the IRFU signing up the players. And paying for them.

A copy and Paste should do here:


You have an obsession with IRFU - I don't need to say it, it's your posting history that proves it.



What allowed Munster and Leinster to win? Good players, good coaching, good funding and management of thereof, good foreign player choosers, good rugby.
.

[No 7&1/2]

No point in comparing against an upper limit of a cap if you can give an approximate of what the top of the tree team actually spent.

You're conflating the cap with what some are alleged to have spent in breaking it. You know full well that 10 AP clubs publicly stated they didn't break the cap.

Therefore, you may see no point in comparing Ulster's salary spend to the AP cap but that's your prerogative.

And no one was punished for any breach. But we haven't a real clue on what the spend was for any.

[PhilBB]

Are you really that stupid?

It seems that he is.

[No 7&1/2]

Swoosh, as the point is avoided again. Well played Phil.

The point about Irish rugby wages has been proven and agreed.

If you want to write about the English system, please feel free to start a thread.

My point here was to note what Ulster spent in relation to Welsh teams. That's been agreed and noted, so nothing has been avoided. If you'd like to discuss another country's relative spend then knock yourself bandy.


Somewhere else.

Proved? How have you proved anything? You mean agreement by some?

[PhilBB]

And no one was punished for any breach. But we haven't a real clue on what the spend was for any.

But we know what the cap was which is why it was compared to the cap. And we know who spent up to the cap and who spent a distance away from it.

As we've gone through at least twice before.

Do we need to do it again?

[PhilBB]

Proved? How have you proved anything? You mean agreement by some?

Anybody with a cursory comprehension of the Ulster Annual Report will see the proof. Have you read it yet?

[No 7&1/2]

And no one was punished for any breach. But we haven't a real clue on what the spend was for any.

But we know what the cap was which is why it was compared to the cap. And we know who spent up to the cap and who spent a distance away from it.

As we've gone through at least twice before.

Do we need to do it again?

No we don't, that's the point. You don't know who spent what. It's also completely pointless talking about the English cap if you're trying to compare what clubs/provinces etc are spending on their playing staff (or coaching staff) or amateur game.

[SecretFly]

Are you really that stupid?

It seems that he is.

Almost as though you're playing the man.

*This copy and paste thing is handy!

[PhilBB]

No we don't, that's the point. You don't know who spent what. It's also completely pointless talking about the English cap if you're trying to compare what clubs/provinces etc are spending on their playing staff (or coaching staff) or amateur game.

Please read the report before writing this guff. Thanks.

[PhilBB]

Are you really that stupid?

It seems that he is.

Almost as though you're playing the man.

*This copy and paste thing is handy!

Yep, I took your lead. Thanks for that, too.

[SecretFly]

No really, I blush. Thank yourselves instead - all of you.  

We've achieved a lot today.  A major breakthrough and a satisfactory conclusion.

The IRFU Debate is officially at an end.  The Sun doth rise in the East on a brand new understanding between the peoples of PrO'12.

All we have to wait for now is the beginning of the season to share our new established shared values of mutual appreciation.

[No 7&1/2]

No we don't, that's the point. You don't know who spent what. It's also completely pointless talking about the English cap if you're trying to compare what clubs/provinces etc are spending on their playing staff (or coaching staff) or amateur game.

Please read the report before writing this guff. Thanks.

Links? You've already said you're guessing though.

[Notch]

I'm locking this thread due to its derivation from its original purpose; as a place for Irish rugby fans to trade gossip about the provinces.

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