Welsh World Cup Squad part 2

by Guest Sun 09 Aug 2015, 5:28 pm

First topic message reminder :

Anyone else think Ll Williams and Anscombe did well when they came on? Would definitely take them over Phillips and Hook at the moment.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 19 Aug 2015, 4:49 am

I wouldn't call Gareth Davies a poor option at No9, Lloyd Williams yes and that's why I would have kept Phillips. Hook is well gone as far as I am concerned but again would have kept Hibbard as 3rd choice behind Baldwin and Owens.

T/Head is my big worry.

by offload Wed 19 Aug 2015, 7:06 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:

T/Head is my big worry.

Not just T/Head Bedford. Gethin is not the player he was and I don't rate James at all. I watch him a lot at Bath and he's been a poor scrummager and penalty machine. If AWJ or Charteris get injured, I don't believe Ball, Davies or Day can stand up to the competition.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 19 Aug 2015, 9:39 am

offload wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:

T/Head is my big worry.

Not just T/Head Bedford. Gethin is not the player he was and I don't rate James at all. I watch him a lot at Bath and he's been a poor scrummager and penalty machine. If AWJ or Charteris get injured, I don't believe Ball, Davies or Day can stand up to the competition.

I have always rated James and whilst Jenkins isn't the player he once was I still think he can do a job for us and his game time will be managed well I reckon. I guess he will play some part in one of the next 2 games then we won't see him until the England game.

by mikey_dragon Wed 19 Aug 2015, 6:43 pm

Gwlad wrote:

Retaining Hook Hibbard and Philipps would have made sense but he obviously has faith and they are just a phone call away.

I'd probably have taken Hibbard as my third choice option. But unless you're watching a different game to the rest of us it doesn't make sense at all to retain Phillips and Hook. Davies is a quality scrum-half, I think he's capable of owning that No.9 jersey. Gatland will likely persist with the Ospreys half-back combo, with the Scarlets combo as back up.

by mikey_dragon Wed 19 Aug 2015, 6:48 pm

Without wanting to make wholesale changes, I think some changes are necessary from the Italy game (best team/best available) to the Uruguay game. Gethin Jenkins should definitely not be involved in that game and I'd start with Rob Evans; seeing as Baldwin is in the driving seat at hooker I'd consider starting Owens with Dacey to come on and get his first cap. Lee and Francis to share TH duty. If Tyler and Amos makes the final squad perhaps this will be another chance for them to impress? Aside from that, I don't think I'd make any more changes. The question is will Gatland make changes? I can't recall him doing so against Namibia in 2011.

by No9 Wed 19 Aug 2015, 6:49 pm

Guys, not got time (or the will) to go through all the replies in this thread, so excuse me if I'm asking a question already been asked.. if the case, humour me and point me to the answer Wink

We know Gats has cut the initial squad, but can he bring any of them back at the expense of cutting someone else, now he has released them. Just wondering, I'm sure there's no rule saying he cant at this stage, apart from peeing off the clubs who know expect those players back for them.

I ask, because, I wonder how much releasing Hibbard could be tactics and maybe a kick up the ar$e for Hibbard. ie "Get yourself fit and show marked improvement, and your back in". It would also send a message to the others that no one is guaranteed of a spot.

I know Hibbs has been having a mare, but is he really 4th choice behind "all" those who are still there.. As a Lion really dropped so far...

Any thoughts..

by Gwlad Wed 19 Aug 2015, 7:48 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Gwlad wrote:

Retaining Hook Hibbard and Philipps would have made sense but he obviously has faith and they are just a phone call away.

I'd probably have taken Hibbard as my third choice option. But unless you're watching a different game to the rest of us it doesn't make sense at all to retain Phillips and Hook. Davies is a quality scrum-half, I think he's capable of owning that No.9 jersey. Gatland will likely persist with the Ospreys half-back combo, with the Scarlets combo as back up.

davies has 2 caps, philipps 94 and a winning lion with a roc semi…i know who i want as 3rd choice only a numbskull would dismiss him off the back of one poor showing against a much better standard side behind a beaten pack

by mikey_dragon Wed 19 Aug 2015, 7:52 pm

Gwlad wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Gwlad wrote:

Retaining Hook Hibbard and Philipps would have made sense but he obviously has faith and they are just a phone call away.

I'd probably have taken Hibbard as my third choice option. But unless you're watching a different game to the rest of us it doesn't make sense at all to retain Phillips and Hook. Davies is a quality scrum-half, I think he's capable of owning that No.9 jersey. Gatland will likely persist with the Ospreys half-back combo, with the Scarlets combo as back up.

davies has 2 caps, philipps 94 and a winning lion with a roc semi…i know who i want as 3rd choice only a numbskull would dismiss him off the back of one poor showing against a much better standard side behind a beaten pack

Thanks for the obvious information RE Phillips, but I don't see how it makes you correct? Phillips hasn't been at the required standard for a long time, with a couple exceptions - so that's a lot more games than just the Ireland game. I think Davies has shown outstanding form throughout his Scarlets career and I think he'd have more caps now if it wasn't for injury and suspension. The form choice is clearly Davies. Phillips is 3rd or 4th in line, we probably wouldn't lose or gain anything if he took the place of Williams.

by Gwlad Wed 19 Aug 2015, 9:13 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Gwlad wrote:

Retaining Hook Hibbard and Philipps would have made sense but he obviously has faith and they are just a phone call away.

I'd probably have taken Hibbard as my third choice option. But unless you're watching a different game to the rest of us it doesn't make sense at all to retain Phillips and Hook. Davies is a quality scrum-half, I think he's capable of owning that No.9 jersey. Gatland will likely persist with the Ospreys half-back combo, with the Scarlets combo as back up.

davies has 2 caps, philipps 94 and a winning lion with a roc semi…i know who i want as 3rd choice only a numbskull would dismiss him off the back of one poor showing against a much better standard side behind a beaten pack

Thanks for the obvious information RE Phillips, but I don't see how it makes you correct? Phillips hasn't been at the required standard for a long time, with a couple exceptions - so that's a lot more games than just the Ireland game. I think Davies has shown outstanding form throughout his Scarlets career and I think he'd have more caps now if it wasn't for injury and suspension. The form choice is clearly Davies. Phillips is 3rd or 4th in line, we probably wouldn't lose or gain anything if he took the place of Williams.

You said that unless i was watching a different game (kind of thing my wife would say) excluding Philipps makes no sense. To exclude him off the back of one game is what makes no sense. He is the sensible 3rd choice, oodles of experience and in a squad with no strength in depth from 9-15 of any note, we need experience. Gats however is divesting himself of it at every opportunity. Taken in the context of JD2 being out and Adam jones now gone, to dismiss Philipps and to a lesser extent Hibbard and Hook, makes very little sense to me.

by mikey_dragon Wed 19 Aug 2015, 9:29 pm

Gwlad wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Gwlad wrote:

Retaining Hook Hibbard and Philipps would have made sense but he obviously has faith and they are just a phone call away.

I'd probably have taken Hibbard as my third choice option. But unless you're watching a different game to the rest of us it doesn't make sense at all to retain Phillips and Hook. Davies is a quality scrum-half, I think he's capable of owning that No.9 jersey. Gatland will likely persist with the Ospreys half-back combo, with the Scarlets combo as back up.

davies has 2 caps, philipps 94 and a winning lion with a roc semi…i know who i want as 3rd choice only a numbskull would dismiss him off the back of one poor showing against a much better standard side behind a beaten pack

Thanks for the obvious information RE Phillips, but I don't see how it makes you correct? Phillips hasn't been at the required standard for a long time, with a couple exceptions - so that's a lot more games than just the Ireland game. I think Davies has shown outstanding form throughout his Scarlets career and I think he'd have more caps now if it wasn't for injury and suspension. The form choice is clearly Davies. Phillips is 3rd or 4th in line, we probably wouldn't lose or gain anything if he took the place of Williams.

You said that unless i was watching a different game (kind of thing my wife would say) excluding Philipps makes no sense. To exclude him off the back of one game is what makes no sense. He is the sensible 3rd choice, oodles of experience and in a squad with no strength in depth from 9-15 of any note, we need experience. Gats however is divesting himself of it at every opportunity. Taken in the context of JD2 being out and Adam jones now gone, to dismiss Philipps and to a lesser extent Hibbard and Hook, makes very little sense to me.

I said unless you're watching a different game retaining Phillips made no sense, and you were getting at that he should have been retained. I've already stated it wasn't based on just one game. I would guess Gatland has eyes on next season and is bringing some of the next gen into the team.

by maestegmafia Wed 19 Aug 2015, 11:09 pm

Good to see someone with a different perspective on the omission of Phillips. But I vehemently disagree.

He has put in one or two good performances in in the last three years. Lions vs Baa Baas in honkers, second test vs SA but otherwise Phillips has been a poor shadow of his former self.

He has had issues with clubs and off pitch controversies.

Lloyd Williams has worked hard at a poor blues to prove his worth and I think he has earned his spot.

I do agree in your perspective on experience but sometimes a new page needs to be turned.

It want one game that formed his exclusion. It was a month of training and the result was a decision to give Phillips the chance to prove the coaches he still had a world class game in him.

He didn't do so, how can we have faith that he could perform in a crunch game? When he was given a prime opportunity to do so.

A form Mike Phillips would have been a key ingredient to a solid Welsh performance. Same goes for hook and Hibbard. But none of them stepped up to the mantle when their opportunity arose.

For now we can move on.

by maestegmafia Wed 19 Aug 2015, 11:11 pm

maestegmafia wrote:Good to see someone with a different perspective on the omission of Phillips. But I vehemently disagree.

He has put in one or two good performances in in the last three years. Lions vs Baa Baas in honkers, second test vs SA but otherwise Phillips has been a poor shadow of his former self.

He has had issues with clubs and off pitch controversies.

Lloyd Williams has worked hard at a poor blues to prove his worth and I think he has earned his spot.

I do agree in your perspective on experience but sometimes a new page needs to be turned.

It wasn't one game that formed his exclusion. It was a month of training and the result was a decision to give Phillips the chance to prove the coaches he still had a world class game in him.

He didn't do so, how can we have faith that he could perform in a crunch game? When he was given a prime opportunity to do so.

A form Mike Phillips would have been a key ingredient to a solid Welsh performance. Same goes for hook and Hibbard. But none of them stepped up to the mantle when their opportunity arose.

For now we can move on.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 20 Aug 2015, 7:34 am

Gwlad wrote:davies has 2 caps, philipps 94 and a winning lion with a roc semi…

I've always hated this line of thinking. If you based selection on how much experience / the number of caps a player has, no one new would ever play Test rugby. Given the choice between someone who was a good player once and someone who is a good player now, I'm going to opt for the latter.

And wasn't Conor Murray the starting scrum half when the Lions beat Australia?

by TightHEAD Thu 20 Aug 2015, 9:27 am

'when the Lions beat Australia?'

When did this happen?

by Seagultaf Thu 20 Aug 2015, 12:14 pm

I for one would have kept Phillips in the squad but in place of Williams who I see nothing in. All he did against an Ireland team who were freewheeling with the game already won was to get constantly caught in possession. In fact the two youngsters at Scarlets and Evans at Dragons are both IMO better players.

As for Hibbard, Shane said today in a press release that Hibbard should have been kept for his scrumaging ability. From what I have seen of Hibbard he goes to the scrum for a rest so that he can run around in the loose, my evidence of this is that every time he comes off the scrum improves.

Hook again proved what we all knew, he does everything brilliantly but usually at the wrong time! Saying that I would have released Morgan before Hook, as if Liam is not fit, Wales need dependable back up at 15.

Biggest problem Wales have is at tight head. Jarvis and Andrews proved what we already knew, that they don't have the scrumaging skills for this level (in Andrews case any level). Samson always struggles for form after an injury, he is a player who probably plays himself into fitness, so even if he plays, don't expect much. And Francis is young raw and untried. Lets hope for games without many scrums!

by mikey_dragon Thu 20 Aug 2015, 12:58 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
And wasn't Conor Murray the starting scrum half when the Lions beat Australia?

No, Phillips was first choice. Arguably, he could have been dropped after that first test. But he kept his position and played well from there on. But that was in 2013...

by mikey_dragon Thu 20 Aug 2015, 1:03 pm

Segual, I take it you're referring to Matthew Morgan? Liam Williams should recover, but I guess the other candidates for the 15 jersey would be Amos and Halfpenny. Hook is not dependable back-up (unless he is 13 cover and doesn't have to make many tackles). And if all goes well for us at TH, Jarvis will be third choice behind Lee and Francis - he isn't a bad third choice to have and despite his lack of scrummaging ability he hasn't really let us down. If Francis is as good as they say, he shouldn't have a problem fitting into our first choice pack. You're correct about Samson, so the Uruguay game is the ideal time for him to play (not sure if he's available for Italy?).

by Gwlad Thu 20 Aug 2015, 3:51 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Gwlad wrote:davies has 2 caps, philipps 94 and a winning lion with a roc semi…

I've always hated this line of thinking. If you based selection on how much experience / the number of caps a player has, no one new would ever play Test rugby. Given the choice between someone who was a good player once and someone who is a good player now, I'm going to opt for the latter.

And wasn't Conor Murray the starting scrum half when the Lions beat Australia?

I am considering squad inclusion not selection. I hate the line of thinking that the new broom is always best. We NEED experience in an RWC. This isn't a single test for which form is the biggest consideration but a series of huge high pressure games using a small squad. The guy is a winning Lion and has been to an RWC semi. He has the mental game we need, fact is Wales are weak mentally and are about to face their constant nemesis in Australia….do i want the old sweat in my squad for that challenge over a new untested player , yes i do.

by Gwlad Thu 20 Aug 2015, 3:52 pm

Seagultaf wrote:I for one would have kept Phillips in the squad but in place of Williams who I see nothing in. All he did against an Ireland team who were freewheeling with the game already won was to get constantly caught in possession. In fact the two youngsters at Scarlets and Evans at Dragons are both IMO better players.

As for Hibbard, Shane said today in a press release that Hibbard should have been kept for his scrumaging ability. From what I have seen of Hibbard he goes to the scrum for a rest so that he can run around in the loose, my evidence of this is that every time he comes off the scrum improves.

Hook again proved what we all knew, he does everything brilliantly but usually at the wrong time! Saying that I would have released Morgan before Hook, as if Liam is not fit, Wales need dependable back up at 15.

Biggest problem Wales have is at tight head. Jarvis and Andrews proved what we already knew, that they don't have the scrumaging skills for this level (in Andrews case any level). Samson always struggles for form after an injury, he is a player who probably plays himself into fitness, so even if he plays, don't expect much. And Francis is young raw and untried. Lets hope for games without many scrums!

erm, Halfpenny…Anscombe….Morgan.

by mikey_dragon Thu 20 Aug 2015, 4:10 pm

Gwlad wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Gwlad wrote:davies has 2 caps, philipps 94 and a winning lion with a roc semi…

I've always hated this line of thinking. If you based selection on how much experience / the number of caps a player has, no one new would ever play Test rugby. Given the choice between someone who was a good player once and someone who is a good player now, I'm going to opt for the latter.

And wasn't Conor Murray the starting scrum half when the Lions beat Australia?

I am considering squad inclusion not selection. I hate the line of thinking that the new broom is always best. We NEED experience in an RWC. This isn't a single test for which form is the biggest consideration but a series of huge high pressure games using a small squad. The guy is a winning Lion and has been to an RWC semi. He has the mental game we need, fact is Wales are weak mentally and are about to face their constant nemesis in Australia….do i want the old sweat in my squad for that challenge over a new untested player , yes i do.

So if you get your wish and Phillips comes back in as third choice how does his experience help? He's third choice...so is unlikely to feature.

by Gwlad Thu 20 Aug 2015, 4:22 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Gwlad wrote:davies has 2 caps, philipps 94 and a winning lion with a roc semi…

I've always hated this line of thinking. If you based selection on how much experience / the number of caps a player has, no one new would ever play Test rugby. Given the choice between someone who was a good player once and someone who is a good player now, I'm going to opt for the latter.

And wasn't Conor Murray the starting scrum half when the Lions beat Australia?

I am considering squad inclusion not selection. I hate the line of thinking that the new broom is always best. We NEED experience in an RWC. This isn't a single test for which form is the biggest consideration but a series of huge high pressure games using a small squad. The guy is a winning Lion and has been to an RWC semi. He has the mental game we need, fact is Wales are weak mentally and are about to face their constant nemesis in Australia….do i want the old sweat in my squad for that challenge over a new untested player , yes i do.

So if you get your wish and Phillips comes back in as third choice how does his experience help? He's third choice...so is unlikely to feature.

No he isn't unlikely to feature, look at the schedule. We need to run 2 sides.

He would be the perfect bench option for Fiji and Uruguay or could start either game to rest Webb and Davies. I just think he is a better bet than Williams in a squad that has been losing experience too much recently. Gats is gambling on youth and fitness which is fair enough looking at the schedule, but there is a real lack of balance developing and our back division is pretty bare in terms of strength in depth.

by mikey_dragon Thu 20 Aug 2015, 5:20 pm

Gwlad wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Gwlad wrote:davies has 2 caps, philipps 94 and a winning lion with a roc semi…

I've always hated this line of thinking. If you based selection on how much experience / the number of caps a player has, no one new would ever play Test rugby. Given the choice between someone who was a good player once and someone who is a good player now, I'm going to opt for the latter.

And wasn't Conor Murray the starting scrum half when the Lions beat Australia?

I am considering squad inclusion not selection. I hate the line of thinking that the new broom is always best. We NEED experience in an RWC. This isn't a single test for which form is the biggest consideration but a series of huge high pressure games using a small squad. The guy is a winning Lion and has been to an RWC semi. He has the mental game we need, fact is Wales are weak mentally and are about to face their constant nemesis in Australia….do i want the old sweat in my squad for that challenge over a new untested player , yes i do.

So if you get your wish and Phillips comes back in as third choice how does his experience help? He's third choice...so is unlikely to feature.

No he isn't unlikely to feature, look at the schedule. We need to run 2 sides.

He would be the perfect bench option for Fiji and Uruguay or could start either game to rest Webb and Davies. I just think he is a better bet than Williams in a squad that has been losing experience too much recently. Gats is gambling on youth and fitness which is fair enough looking at the schedule, but there is a real lack of balance developing and our back division is pretty bare in terms of strength in depth.

I hate to break it to ya, but we don't have two sides to run. We didn't in 2011 either. So forget it.

by Gwlad Thu 20 Aug 2015, 5:31 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Gwlad wrote:davies has 2 caps, philipps 94 and a winning lion with a roc semi…

I've always hated this line of thinking. If you based selection on how much experience / the number of caps a player has, no one new would ever play Test rugby. Given the choice between someone who was a good player once and someone who is a good player now, I'm going to opt for the latter.

And wasn't Conor Murray the starting scrum half when the Lions beat Australia?

I am considering squad inclusion not selection. I hate the line of thinking that the new broom is always best. We NEED experience in an RWC. This isn't a single test for which form is the biggest consideration but a series of huge high pressure games using a small squad. The guy is a winning Lion and has been to an RWC semi. He has the mental game we need, fact is Wales are weak mentally and are about to face their constant nemesis in Australia….do i want the old sweat in my squad for that challenge over a new untested player , yes i do.

So if you get your wish and Phillips comes back in as third choice how does his experience help? He's third choice...so is unlikely to feature.

No he isn't unlikely to feature, look at the schedule. We need to run 2 sides.

He would be the perfect bench option for Fiji and Uruguay or could start either game to rest Webb and Davies. I just think he is a better bet than Williams in a squad that has been losing experience too much recently. Gats is gambling on youth and fitness which is fair enough looking at the schedule, but there is a real lack of balance developing and our back division is pretty bare in terms of strength in depth.

I hate to break it to ya, but we don't have two sides to run. We didn't in 2011 either. So forget it.

Yes we do

Geth, Baldwin, Lee
AWJ, Charters,
Lydiate, Warbs, Faletau
Webb, Biggar
North, Doc, Scott, Half
Sanjay

James, Owens, Francis
Ball, Brad
Moriarty, Tips, king
Davies, Preistland
Amos, Morgan, Scott, Walker
Anscombe

Only 1 player starts both games.

by offload Thu 20 Aug 2015, 5:40 pm

It doesn't matter how experienced Phillips is - he's not good enough any more. Perhaps we should see if Gareth Edwards is available, he's got even more experience than Phillips !

Gatland knows these players as well as anyone and he stuck with Phillips when his form didn't warrant it. He has clearly not seen enough from Phillips to give him the third place. Frankly, given how poor he's been of late I'm surprised he made the initial squad.

by mikey_dragon Thu 20 Aug 2015, 5:42 pm

Well I'm glad you aren't coaching the team. Wales have one less warm-up game. We'll be expected to hit the ground running and mostly keep the same team throughout the tournament (injury permitting). Gatland won't make wholesale changes unless injury forces him too; and I doubt we'll get 10 injuries.

by Gwlad Thu 20 Aug 2015, 5:44 pm

offload wrote:It doesn't matter how experienced Phillips is - he's not good enough any more. Perhaps we should see if Gareth Edwards is available, he's got even more experience than Phillips !

Gatland knows these players as well as anyone and he stuck with Phillips when his form didn't warrant it. He has clearly not seen enough from Phillips to give him the third place. Frankly, given how poor he's been of late I'm surprised he made the initial squad.

So you think Williams is a better third choice option than MP?

by Gwlad Thu 20 Aug 2015, 5:48 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Well I'm glad you aren't coaching the team. Wales have one less warm-up game. We'll be expected to hit the ground running and mostly keep the same team throughout the tournament (injury permitting). Gatland won't make wholesale changes unless injury forces him too; and I doubt we'll get 10 injuries.

And I'm glad you aren't because you were wrong that we dont have two teams and you can't admit it.

Wales squandered a warm up game using it as a trial. They will put out their firsts v Italy i expect, perhaps Ireland but i doubt it. And I can assure you that you're wrong about rotation. Wales will have to use a 2nd string of sorts v Fiji with a strong bench. There are too few days between games to risk the first team on Uruguay before the England game, with Fiji following only 5 days after England!

by offload Thu 20 Aug 2015, 5:49 pm

Gwlad wrote:
offload wrote:It doesn't matter how experienced Phillips is - he's not good enough any more. Perhaps we should see if Gareth Edwards is available, he's got even more experience than Phillips !

Gatland knows these players as well as anyone and he stuck with Phillips when his form didn't warrant it. He has clearly not seen enough from Phillips to give him the third place. Frankly, given how poor he's been of late I'm surprised he made the initial squad.

So you think Williams is a better third choice option than MP?

Yes.
I never rated Williams but it is clear he has improved a lot particularly the second half of the season. I also choose to trust the coaches who think he's the better option. Gatland has been loyal to Phillips, he wouldn't have let him go if he thought he needed him.

by Gwlad Thu 20 Aug 2015, 5:51 pm

offload wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
offload wrote:It doesn't matter how experienced Phillips is - he's not good enough any more. Perhaps we should see if Gareth Edwards is available, he's got even more experience than Phillips !

Gatland knows these players as well as anyone and he stuck with Phillips when his form didn't warrant it. He has clearly not seen enough from Phillips to give him the third place. Frankly, given how poor he's been of late I'm surprised he made the initial squad.

So you think Williams is a better third choice option than MP?

Yes.
I never rated Williams but it is clear he has improved a lot particularly the second half of the season. I also choose to trust the coaches who think he's the better option. Gatland has been loyal to Phillips, he wouldn't have let him go if he thought he needed him.

Oh i see you're a yes man…you never rated Williams but now Gats does he is the man. Gotcha.

Now, where are my sheep……..

by offload Thu 20 Aug 2015, 6:04 pm

Gwlad wrote:
offload wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
offload wrote:It doesn't matter how experienced Phillips is - he's not good enough any more. Perhaps we should see if Gareth Edwards is available, he's got even more experience than Phillips !

Gatland knows these players as well as anyone and he stuck with Phillips when his form didn't warrant it. He has clearly not seen enough from Phillips to give him the third place. Frankly, given how poor he's been of late I'm surprised he made the initial squad.

So you think Williams is a better third choice option than MP?

Yes.
I never rated Williams but it is clear he has improved a lot particularly the second half of the season. I also choose to trust the coaches who think he's the better option. Gatland has been loyal to Phillips, he wouldn't have let him go if he thought he needed him.

Oh i see you're a yes man…you never rated Williams but now Gats does he is the man. Gotcha.

Now, where are my sheep……..

You have an unfortunate knack of reverting to insults when you attempt a discussion. Some people who appear to be a bit dull are more often just antagonistic by nature. Perhaps when you are a little more experienced you will realise that not all of us on here are trying to "win" a Gotcha.

by Gwlad Thu 20 Aug 2015, 6:11 pm

offload wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
offload wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
offload wrote:It doesn't matter how experienced Phillips is - he's not good enough any more. Perhaps we should see if Gareth Edwards is available, he's got even more experience than Phillips !

Gatland knows these players as well as anyone and he stuck with Phillips when his form didn't warrant it. He has clearly not seen enough from Phillips to give him the third place. Frankly, given how poor he's been of late I'm surprised he made the initial squad.

So you think Williams is a better third choice option than MP?

Yes.
I never rated Williams but it is clear he has improved a lot particularly the second half of the season. I also choose to trust the coaches who think he's the better option. Gatland has been loyal to Phillips, he wouldn't have let him go if he thought he needed him.

Oh i see you're a yes man…you never rated Williams but now Gats does he is the man. Gotcha.

Now, where are my sheep……..

You have an unfortunate knack of reverting to insults when you attempt a discussion. Some people who appear to be a bit dull are more often just antagonistic by nature. Perhaps when you are a little more experienced you will realise that not all of us on here are trying to "win" a Gotcha.

Baaahhhh

And some people who are ridiculously over sensitive so i guess we make a fine pair.

By the way, not that i care what you think but when you complain someone is insulting you and then overtly insult them in return, that is called hypocrisy. Two wrongs don't make a right. Just sayin'

by mikey_dragon Thu 20 Aug 2015, 6:12 pm

Gwlad wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Well I'm glad you aren't coaching the team. Wales have one less warm-up game. We'll be expected to hit the ground running and mostly keep the same team throughout the tournament (injury permitting). Gatland won't make wholesale changes unless injury forces him too; and I doubt we'll get 10 injuries.

And I'm glad you aren't because you were wrong that we dont have two teams and you can't admit it.

Wales squandered a warm up game using it as a trial. They will put out their firsts v Italy i expect, perhaps Ireland but i doubt it. And I can assure you that you're wrong about rotation. Wales will have to use a 2nd string of sorts v Fiji with a strong bench. There are too few days between games to risk the first team on Uruguay before the England game, with Fiji following only 5 days after England!

To be honest with you there's a lot more to two teams than just being able to change 14 players. I'm confident it's something Gatland will never do, or any other coach bar Hansen for that matter. I can assure Wales will not use a 2nd string versus Fiji - if he makes changes for that one it'll probably be 4-5 starters at the most; one of them at TH I reckon.

by Gwlad Thu 20 Aug 2015, 6:15 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Well I'm glad you aren't coaching the team. Wales have one less warm-up game. We'll be expected to hit the ground running and mostly keep the same team throughout the tournament (injury permitting). Gatland won't make wholesale changes unless injury forces him too; and I doubt we'll get 10 injuries.

And I'm glad you aren't because you were wrong that we dont have two teams and you can't admit it.

Wales squandered a warm up game using it as a trial. They will put out their firsts v Italy i expect, perhaps Ireland but i doubt it. And I can assure you that you're wrong about rotation. Wales will have to use a 2nd string of sorts v Fiji with a strong bench. There are too few days between games to risk the first team on Uruguay before the England game, with Fiji following only 5 days after England!

To be honest with you there's a lot more to two teams than just being able to change 14 players. I'm confident it's something Gatland will never do, or any other coach bar Hansen for that matter. I can assure Wales will not use a 2nd string versus Fiji - if he makes changes for that one it'll probably be 4-5 starters at the most; one of them at TH I reckon.

What about Uruguay…as coach what would you do with England 5 or 6 days afterwards…play your firsts or preserve the likes of Warbs, Webb, Biggar and Doc?

by bedfordwelsh Thu 20 Aug 2015, 7:14 pm

For me Phillips would have been a better choice than Lloyd Williams but even then he would have been 3rd choice.

by Gwlad Thu 20 Aug 2015, 7:29 pm

Some people are just weather vanes though, they go with whatever Gats goes with. I agree bed, Philipps is the man for 3rd spot but now we know who are 3 9s and 2s are so the debate is academic. And also, Hibbard and Philipps are very much a phone call away.

What concerns me is the centres, reliance on Doc, North being made of glass, Snajay's foot, Lee's ankle, Half's kicking, Preistland all round and last but not least, Pool A being a total mofecker

by bedfordwelsh Thu 20 Aug 2015, 7:33 pm

If the forwards don't front up in first place then it not matter what backs we put out.

by Gwlad Thu 20 Aug 2015, 7:41 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:If the forwards don't front up in first place then it not matter what backs we put out.

Agreed. Which is why i like hibbard.

I wish all of them had the mentality of Moriarty. I like my props to be nasty. Melon is a renowned Grump but dont know much about Lee or Francis.

AWJ needs to have the biggest tournament of his career.

Would dyou play Tips and Warbs together for the Eng Aus games?

by bedfordwelsh Thu 20 Aug 2015, 7:57 pm

That's the big call I think. I am a fan of the Lydiate Faletau Warburton combo as they compliment each other so well.

I know people say lets play to fetchers and take game to them which I can see but we also need to be able to defend and that's where Lydiate comes in and we need to be able to compete on the floor which is where Warburton has the edge on Tipuric.

I would be more nervous if we went with Tips and Warbs but it would be a nervous excitement of if this comes off it will be great.

The problem being is we haven't played that combo very often and are the two biggest games of the group the time to try it again, am not sure.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 20 Aug 2015, 9:20 pm

Gwlad wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:If the forwards don't front up in first place then it not matter what backs we put out.

Agreed. Which is why i like hibbard.

Fronting up for me means matching our opponents at set piece, not putting in an occasional big hit. With the group we have, we need to focus on the basics first and foremost.

by maestegmafia Thu 20 Aug 2015, 9:31 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:If the forwards don't front up in first place then it not matter what backs we put out.

Agreed. Which is why i like hibbard.

Fronting up for me means matching our opponents at set piece, not putting in an occasional big hit. With the group we have, we need to focus on the basics first and foremost.

Like we did in the six nations vs Ireland?

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 20 Aug 2015, 9:48 pm

Sorry?

by maestegmafia Thu 20 Aug 2015, 11:25 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Sorry?

When Wales beat Ireland in the Six Nations, they played as you just described. They won Irish line outs, defended in one of the best defensive efforts anyone has ever seen, scored a clinical try after limited opportunity and won the game.

I was very proud of them that day. It was a great effort. They really stood up.

And considering that we lost both of our first choice props by halftime too..

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 21 Aug 2015, 2:41 am

Let's hope that doesn't happen again!

by mikey_dragon Fri 21 Aug 2015, 3:02 am

Gwlad wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:Well I'm glad you aren't coaching the team. Wales have one less warm-up game. We'll be expected to hit the ground running and mostly keep the same team throughout the tournament (injury permitting). Gatland won't make wholesale changes unless injury forces him too; and I doubt we'll get 10 injuries.

And I'm glad you aren't because you were wrong that we dont have two teams and you can't admit it.

Wales squandered a warm up game using it as a trial. They will put out their firsts v Italy i expect, perhaps Ireland but i doubt it. And I can assure you that you're wrong about rotation. Wales will have to use a 2nd string of sorts v Fiji with a strong bench. There are too few days between games to risk the first team on Uruguay before the England game, with Fiji following only 5 days after England!

To be honest with you there's a lot more to two teams than just being able to change 14 players. I'm confident it's something Gatland will never do, or any other coach bar Hansen for that matter. I can assure Wales will not use a 2nd string versus Fiji - if he makes changes for that one it'll probably be 4-5 starters at the most; one of them at TH I reckon.

What about Uruguay…as coach what would you do with England 5 or 6 days afterwards…play your firsts or preserve the likes of Warbs, Webb, Biggar and Doc?

Well that would be about 4-5 wouldn't it... Uruguay is the game where we need to hit the ground running with our first team, who hopefully would have had previous outings against Ireland and Italy. Williams and Lee will be available, so I think there's at least two potential changes there. I'd rest Doc and Mr Concussion for sure, but that's all. In this group there's just no room for error, and wholesale changes does just that to Wales. I'd also perhaps start with Tips and Warburton versus Australia.

As for your other post, you're clearly being presumptuous of people when you haven't got a clue. Not only that, you seem to get a bit defensive when they disagree with you; don't be an idiot. Just to clear it up, I've actually often disagreed with Gatland's selection policy, most recently against Ireland. There's been various occasions over the years; for instance when he wouldn't drop an out of sorts Priestland, when an injured Lydiate come straight back into the team and SA/Aus smashed us at the breakdown and beat us, when an out of sorts Davies returned to the team also from injury and got in over S Williams... There's also Gatland's refusal to make Liam Williams our first choice fullback when he's clearly the best option there, coupled with the fact he actually plays his rugby in Wales. I'm going to have to agree it's for the best he got rid of Phillips and Hibbard though.

by maestegmafia Fri 21 Aug 2015, 6:38 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Let's hope that doesn't happen again!

Let's hope we play that well again.

At one point Ireland went through twenty eight phases and our defenders held our line. And that was with Aaron Jarvis and Rob Evans up front, Roberts was also off injured and I think Warburton was in the bin for something earlier.

After a decent amount of time in camp, The Welsh squad as a whole looked very good. Players like Warburton, AWJ, Faletau, Biggar, Halfpenny and Webb look world class on the pitch

by munkian Fri 21 Aug 2015, 8:17 am

It did help that Ireland went all macho route one and kept trying to run through us and ignored overlaps but yeah, was a huge effort from us, very proud - was watching in an English pub and being ganged up on by plastic England fans and plastic paddys.

by SecretFly Fri 21 Aug 2015, 9:10 am

Correct. Route One was so stubborn that day - so damned stubborn that it's certain it was an absolute command from on High from Joseph and his Technicoloured WC preparation files..... Wink

by bedfordwelsh Fri 21 Aug 2015, 9:39 am

We all know we are slow starters and the Uruguay whilst being one we should always win and win well could have proven a bit of a hiccup. However we will have had 3 warm up games and been in camp since the last World Cup (seems like it) so should hit the ground running.

I have said all along that this group will come down to points diff/bonus points so we have to rack up a shed load.

So if he puts a good mixed team together they should be able to do it then if any 1st teamers playing get them off once job is done etc.

by maestegmafia Sat 22 Aug 2015, 7:35 am

Gwlad wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:I didn't suggest that a prop could play hooker. Just that we may take fewer hookers than expected

one gets crocked then what? bring in sam burgess?

Australia have only selected two hookers for their squad.

by maestegmafia Sat 22 Aug 2015, 7:37 am

bedfordwelsh wrote:Surely 3 hookers have to be considered the norm that way there is at least a chance of rotating/resting one of them.

Mike Catt was complaining in the telegraph, regarding the Bazzers only selecting two hookers in their squad and the IRB said they don't have a problem with the selection so long as six qualified front row players are in the match day squad of 23.

Apparently they rejected Hartley because they thought that they wouldn't have had cover at hooker

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