Welsh World Cup Squad part 2

First topic message reminder :

Anyone else think Ll Williams and Anscombe did well when they came on? Would definitely take them over Phillips and Hook at the moment.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

wayne wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Except everyone knows it won't hamper Test selection if you're a good enough player.

Until we have the danglers to actually drop someone.  Post RWC, we will be in a 'rebuilding' phase so we can go down that route.  Especially with the likes of 1/2p, Foxy and North coming  out of contract in the summer.

Quite right SS, I advocated that stance just after Roberts and Halfpenny went originally, to come into being after this WC. Unless you have the North contract.

To be honest I think we need to keep it clear, play in Wales or don't play.  Regardless of loopholes etc.  I think I would say that Roberts, Priestland and Francis should all be ruled out post RWC for signing (or re-signing) out of Wales.

We don't have the financia resources or player pool to cut off our own nose.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

wayne wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Except everyone knows it won't hamper Test selection if you're a good enough player.

Until we have the danglers to actually drop someone.  Post RWC, we will be in a 'rebuilding' phase so we can go down that route.  Especially with the likes of 1/2p, Foxy and North coming  out of contract in the summer.

Quite right SS, I advocated that stance just after Roberts and Halfpenny went originally, to come into being after this WC. Unless you have the North contract.

To be honest I think we need to keep it clear, play in Wales or don't play.  Regardless of loopholes etc.  I think I would say that Roberts, Priestland and Francis should all be ruled out post RWC for signing (or re-signing) out of Wales.

It should have been done when peace broke out between the WRU and PRW, when they were in the middle of their contracts, if you sign a new one you pushed your Welsh chances downwards, I don't blame these players one bit trying to get a decent pay day, but they need to realise what the consequences of signing mean

I think players should be allowed the freedom to be employed anywhere they choose as this is their livelihood. This should not handicap them from playing for their country however. That to me is financial blackmail for your dream of playing for your country. It would help if we had 4 strong regions and the WRU have the money to support this. I'm all for limiting overseas players but at the same time can we do what Ireland have done for years and just recruit those at the top from the SH etc. instead of the also-rans or minnows.

munkian wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

wayne wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Except everyone knows it won't hamper Test selection if you're a good enough player.

Until we have the danglers to actually drop someone.  Post RWC, we will be in a 'rebuilding' phase so we can go down that route.  Especially with the likes of 1/2p, Foxy and North coming  out of contract in the summer.

Quite right SS, I advocated that stance just after Roberts and Halfpenny went originally, to come into being after this WC. Unless you have the North contract.

To be honest I think we need to keep it clear, play in Wales or don't play.  Regardless of loopholes etc.  I think I would say that Roberts, Priestland and Francis should all be ruled out post RWC for signing (or re-signing) out of Wales.

We don't have the financia resources or player pool  to cut off our own nose.

We cut off our own nose once a year already, and realisitically how much weaker is our side minus the exiles? The best we could go with based in the regions at the moment (exile who is missing out in brackets) would be something like -:

Li Williams (Halfpenny), Amos, T Morgan (Foxy), Sc Williams (Roberts), Walker (North), Biggar, Webb;
Jenkins, Owens, Lee, AWJ, Ball (Charteris), Lydaite, Warburton, Faletau
(bench: Baldwin, P James, Rh Jones, Thornton, Tipuric; G Davies, Anscomme, Allen)

There's no way Gatland or his replacement would willingly leave out players if it meant weakening the national side.

RubyGuby wrote:I think players should be allowed the freedom to be employed anywhere they choose as this is their livelihood. This should not handicap them from playing for their country however. That to me is financial blackmail for your dream of playing for your country. It would help if we had 4 strong regions and the WRU have the money to support this. I'm all for limiting overseas players but at the same time can we do what Ireland have done for years and just recruit those at the top from the SH etc. instead of the also-rans or minnows.

Ruby I entirely agree with your first sentence, and disagree entirely with your second, other countries employ the same criteria.
Say for instance we say NOW, anybody that already plays abroad ATM, signs an extension to carry on playing outside of Wales after the end of this season, you are NOT eligible to play for Wales, unless you have a North clause in that contract. The same applies to any player playing within Wales, if it means a drop in wages so be it, they will also lose what they pick up when selected for TW. If that is adhered to the Regions would benefit enormously from a lot of those players coming back and stopping the youngsters leaving. I wouldn't mind any player coming to his final contract saying I'm off, as people like Matfield are doing ATM.

I know what your saying Wayne and I'm actually not in total disagreement - Perhaps I'm looking at it differently, by that I mean it would be such a shame for us to choose not to pick 4-5 top players who have gone to play in England for financial reasons that we cannot match. I'm actually all for filling their places with up and coming welsh talent and/or quality overseas players and still allowing them to play for Wales. The only thing Id try to insist on is the release clause to represent their country. In fact Id like to see the IRB step in here as we are now in the area where some nations could stop opposing internationals playing against them because they play for their clubs etc. With the richer nations already poaching youngsters from far and wide and Wales there's lots to be concerned about. Ultimately 4 successful Regions would help to resolve a lot of this

Players have the freedom to leave for either more sunny skies, for bigger wage packets or to attempt to win more trophies and thus up their market/career value.

True.

They are not entitled to have the world fall at their feet, kiss their toes and offer them everything they seek on a silver plate.  They owe nobody a living and neither does anyone else owe them one.

So, they make their choice and leave Native shores by bigger salaries or bigger ambitions.  So be it.  They've made their call and they are adults.

It's then for the Home Union to decide what is best for them, short-term, mid-term and long-term.  And if that decision states that the player who went off to enjoy the French sun or AP bucks is no longer required for International duty then that is a consequence the individual players should live with.  

Why should home based players, who bring value to home clubs/Regions, who potentially add to the image of Welsh rugby with their exploits playing for home Regions, who sacrifice the big money and/or the glorious sun, why should they be shunted to the side when the Big Self Promotion window of International pops up and the Hero's of foreign clubs show up to take the plaudits and adulation of a home International crowd?

Before the stars were stars, they were Welsh Regional players.  They made their names playing in Wales either as Regional or International stars.  Their reputations and market value were made in Wales to begin with.... virtually all of them.

So that can happen again.  The stars don't need to come home to bolster the Welsh way.  The Welsh way was created in Wales.  And the young players are there to sustain the self-development of Welsh rugby IF the Welsh trust those players and give them the opportunities that the current Star Player Foreign Legion ones got before them.

Nice post Fly such a shame I disagree it - And by the way those welsh players playing outside Wales do every bit as much as those playing within Wales to add to the image of Welsh rugby, maybe even more.

As far as access to the 'foreign legion' goes its all there in the international windows. Anything beyond that is up for discussion between the clubs and their governing body and the relevant unions

RubyGuby wrote:Nice post Fly such a shame I disagree it - And by the way those welsh players playing outside Wales do every bit as much as those playing within Wales to add to the image of Welsh rugby, maybe even more.

No, no they don't.  They theoretically help those foreign clubs defeat your home grown Regions.  They theoretically aid in the humiliation of Regions.  Strong regions mean Regions able to demand bigger sponsors, means Regions able to compete with Top14 and AP sides in Europe, means Welsh players again feel proud to stay at home and fight for their Welsh regions in Europe, means they believe they can get those trophies without having to leave.  Success becomes self-perpetuating if best Welsh players stay at home.

These players made their reputation whilst based IN WALES.  It seems some Welsh fans are afraid that can't be repeated by another selection of young Welsh players hungry to prove themselves against the best in the world at International.
The stars made their reputations whilst based in Wales.... not outside it.

My view on this is slightly biased towards the national side I think. Whilst I follow and support all the regions, primarily the Ospreys as my local side(since they took our warriors away!), my 1st team is and always will be Wales. From a players perspective, if I was offered an amount to play in Wales and three times that to play elsewhere, I would go elsewhere. In a short career than can be ended at any point, financial security for myself and my family would overrule any other consideration. Also, I believe that playing outside their comfort zone, surrounded by world class players can only help their development as players and benefit Wales when they play for us. I suppose the down side is that our regions are less competitive at European level, and while this disappoints me every season, if the national side is stronger I can accept it.

hjumpshoe wrote:My view on this is slightly biased towards the national side I think. Whilst I follow and support all the regions, primarily the Ospreys as my local side(since they took our warriors away!), my 1st team is and always will be Wales. From a players perspective, if I was offered an amount to play in Wales and three times that to play elsewhere, I would go elsewhere. In a short career than can be ended at any point, financial security for myself and my family would overrule any other consideration. Also, I believe that playing outside their comfort zone, surrounded by world class players can only help their development as players and benefit Wales when they play for us. I suppose the down side is that our regions are less competitive at European level, and while this disappoints me every season, if the national side is stronger I can accept it.

I also don't think this is mutually exclusive, I think we can still have strong Regions as well if managed carefully like the Irish Provinces who are clever with their recruitment

I agree Ruby, the recruitment of foreign players at the regions could certainly be smarter but this is mainly due to the financial restraints our regions are forced to operate under. They simply can't compete with the French and English clubs for the top talent available so must hope to grab a diamond in the rough.

RubyGuby wrote:

hjumpshoe wrote:My view on this is slightly biased towards the national side I think. Whilst I follow and support all the regions, primarily the Ospreys as my local side(since they took our warriors away!), my 1st team is and always will be Wales. From a players perspective, if I was offered an amount to play in Wales and three times that to play elsewhere, I would go elsewhere. In a short career than can be ended at any point, financial security for myself and my family would overrule any other consideration. Also, I believe that playing outside their comfort zone, surrounded by world class players can only help their development as players and benefit Wales when they play for us. I suppose the down side is that our regions are less competitive at European level, and while this disappoints me every season, if the national side is stronger I can accept it.

I also don't think this is mutually exclusive, I think we can still have strong Regions as well if managed carefully like the Irish Provinces who are clever with their recruitment

I believe the NWQ quality is definitely improving. Yes some of them may not be household names. The likes of Landman and Hadleigh Parkes, for example, have come here with pretty much nobody knowing who they are, yet both are hugely influential for their side.

hjumpshoe wrote:My view on this is slightly biased towards the national side I think. Whilst I follow and support all the regions, primarily the Ospreys as my local side(since they took our warriors away!), my 1st team is and always will be Wales. From a players perspective, if I was offered an amount to play in Wales and three times that to play elsewhere, I would go elsewhere. In a short career than can be ended at any point, financial security for myself and my family would overrule any other consideration. Also, I believe that playing outside their comfort zone, surrounded by world class players can only help their development as players and benefit Wales when they play for us. I suppose the down side is that our regions are less competitive at European level, and while this disappoints me every season, if the national side is stronger I can accept it.

From your players perspective, can you tell me ANY player with Welsh connections who is on 3 times the wages overseas compared to what he was on in Wales, there is NOBODY on double never mind treble, and if you take away the TW wages I would argue they would be on less than what they are on now, especially if they won trophies with TW

While Landman and Parkes have undoubtably been good signings and added quality to their regions at domestic level, if we're talking about competing at the highest European level, I don't think either make the grade tbh. Probably unfair of me to use Toulon as an example but how much game time would either have at that club?

hjumpshoe wrote:While Landman and Parkes have undoubtably been good signings and added quality to their regions at domestic level, if we're talking about competing at the highest European level, I don't think either make the grade tbh. Probably unfair of me to use Toulon as an example but how much game time would either have at that club?

Ok, but lets compare them to the type of signings that were being made like Simon Marling or Sam Norton-Night. They are steps in the right direction. There is no way the regions could sign top class international southern hemisphere players, purely down to cash, I mean even the English and Irish struggle to do that, and they have fair money cash to splash.

I think Landman would probably be starting if he were at any other Pro12 side, and Parkes would most likely start for a fair few of them, and most definitely be a regular bench option if not starting.

Wayne, as I understand it Leigh Halfpenny is earning 600k a year at Toulon. While I have no idea what contract the regions could or would have given him, I can't imagine it was much more than 200k if it was that. Admittedly, he is an exception to the norm and was the player I had in mind when I said 3 times the wages, but Foxy, Dr Bob, North et al are all earning considerably more than they could if they'd remained at home. Add this to the better quality of teammates and opposition they face regularly, the increased likelihood of silverware and the life experience such a move can provide for them and their families and I for one don't blame them for leaving.

Scarlet, even in the days of Norton-Knight etc, the regions still had the odd quality nwq player such as Regan King and Xavier Rush. Even further back to when teichman and Percy turned out for the dragons. Is the General nwq player quality getting better? Possibly! Is it at the stage where our regions can compete regularly with the European big boys? No! Will it ever be? We can only hope but in all likelihood, probably not!

Scarlet, even in the days of Norton-Knight etc, the regions still had the odd quality nwq player such as Regan King and Xavier Rush. Even further back to when teichman and Percy turned out for the dragons. Is the General nwq player quality getting better? Possibly! Is it at the stage where our regions can compete regularly with the European big boys? No! Will it ever be? We can only hope but in all likelihood, probably not!

There's a way around this and its quite simple - Just let me choose which 3-4 NWQ players the Regions can have. Simples

And who would the 4 be for your region Ruby?

And who would the 4 be for your region Ruby?

Sorry bout the double postage issues, feckin fone!

hjumpshoe wrote:Wayne, as I understand it Leigh Halfpenny is earning 600k a year at Toulon. While I have no idea what contract the regions could or would have given him, I can't imagine it was much more than 200k if it was that. Admittedly, he is an exception to the norm and was the player I had in mind when I said 3 times the wages, but Foxy, Dr Bob, North et al are all earning considerably more than they could if they'd remained at home. Add this to the better quality of teammates and opposition they face regularly, the increased likelihood of silverware and the life experience such a move can provide for them and their families and I for one don't blame them for leaving.

So there is 1, DR.Bob is on 380,000 not even double, AWJ is reputedly on well over 200,000, if you were to take out what the Doc receives from TW, then him and AWJ would not be far off each other, in the Eastern Fail article that quoted those figures they are in the top 10 earning Rugby players in the World. JD2 is not in that list, what about ALL the other players now playing outside Wales is it worth it ? if they do not receive the TW top up money, which they would get if they came home.

Haha Wayne in fairness you did ask me for one example, Even highlighting the words ANY and NOBODY! Is Dr Bob ONLY on 380k a year? That's disgraceful! If I was him I wouldn't get out of bed for less than 400! Look I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiment, nobody would love it more than I if all our best players played in Wales and the regions were stronger. I do have a slight issue with the younger, less established players taking the lesser buck but even

hjumpshoe wrote:And who would the 4 be for your region Ruby?

Joking aside I'd probably plump for 1 back and 3-4 forwards as I think we produce good enough backs to begin with within our system. Priority would be 1 or 2 decent props to bolster and protect what we've got and 1 or 2 in the back 5. The likes of Jerry Collins and Filo Tiatia greatly bolstered the Ospreys as did Teichmann at the Dragons. The Irish have recruited some strong front rowers and for me they are the wisest recruiters. The regions still have some dross NWQ players in their squads which could be replaced with welsh talent IMO. Gats has my number

i believe they have the right to do what They believe is right for them! In my opinion, to play club/regional rugby is a career choice, to play international rugby is an honour. Don't see why these boys should be denied the honour of representing their country just because of where they choose to ply their trade!

hjumpshoe wrote:i believe they have the right to do what They believe is right for them! In my opinion, to play club/regional rugby is a career choice, to play international rugby is an honour. Don't see why these boys should be denied the honour of representing their country just because of where they choose to ply their trade!

It's a case though that they are then denying the honour to others by coming back only to play International.  It's a two way sword.  
If five or six or seven Irish players were coming home from French or English clubs to represent Ireland I'd be pretty annoyed.  Not at them for taking advantage of the doors left open for them by the IRFU lax rules, or the personal choices they've made in their careers.  But I strongly believe high priority should be given to players who stay and play for Provinces.  If the honour of playing for Provinces isn't good enough then forfeit the right to play for the Nation when you leave.
Leave with our blessing but you've made the decision knowing the price of the decision.  Opportunities given to Home based players over you - you not denying them the opportunity you were once given to mature and develop as an International player.

Just to throw another spanner in the works I think playing for the Irish Provinces has far more history and emotion attached to it than playing for our Regions, in fact it might be akin in some cases to playing for the country so maybe we are trying to compare Oranges and Apples here Fly. Now if it meant playing for Neath RFC then that would be a whole new fruit

is it because the provinces always existed as rugby teams? Similar to amateur english rugby when players got selected for London, Midlands, North etc. All the amateur greats would turn out, it was an honour even for those who were experienced test players.

The regions were thrown together right only when professionalism came together. Swansea and Neath... like throwing apples and potatoes together.

Fair enough fa0019 but don't forget us fellas at Neath were the frigging apples, and rosy ones at that

Fly, as I'm sure you are well aware, there is a vast difference between the Irish provincial system and the Welsh regions. While I understand an Irish player's loyalty to his province, in Wales, aside from a few standout examples, there is little loyalty from a player to the region he plays for. No more than I have loyalty to the Sunday morning wendyball team I keep goal for. I love you boys an all tha but if Utd come knocking(there are rumours) then I'm outta here! Just ask Mike Phillips, when he comes back to play for the Dragons(sorry Dragons fans), he'll have represented all 4 regions. Besides, in Wales we do not have the depth of talent to exclude 5or6 of our better players and still be competitive.

RubyGuby wrote:Just to throw another spanner in the works I think playing for the Irish Provinces has far more history and emotion attached to it than playing for our Regions, in fact it might be akin in some cases to playing for the country so maybe we are trying to compare Oranges and Apples here Fly. Now if it meant playing for Neath RFC then that would be a whole new fruit

Perhaps Ruby...though Regions are still bloody Welsh. Love'em or hate'em. They're Welsh, and if I was Welsh I'd want all of them to beat the bejaysus out of all foreign clubs/Provinces etc....all the time.

But I guess my real point here is (and maybe I'm not being clear enough) - the more you give the approving nod for players to come in from abroad, the more those at home say "well there you go, we don't have to stay here with the small wages and the rain. We can feck off to any exotic club that pays us a fiver above what we're getting now and enjoy the fun, sun, girls, weekends, lots of great players around us, better opportunities to sell ourselves, better chance of winning things..... we can do all that from elsewhere and the WRU lads will still come back for us to play International."

It's simply not a policy for sustaining any kind of foothold in quality rugby in Wales itself. Rugby in Wales simply becomes a wholesalers where the BIG clubs of Europe come with their chequebooks and buy up anything that looks remotely promising. The players must have an incentive to stay longer.

RubyGuby wrote:Fair enough fa0019 but don't forget us fellas at Neath were the frigging apples, and rosy ones at that

I thought you were all black?

Agree Fly, in an ideal world! However you saw the palaver made in Wales when we fielded an under strength team in a friendly against your boys! Imagine if 5(ATM) of our first 15 were missing every game, and the replacements were not up to scratch, there would be hell to play and the MS would have less bums on seats. Less bums is less cash and the WRU wouldn't have that!

Fly - I know where you're coming from here and to some extent I'm not disagreeing with you. As a Welshman we thrive on passion and parochialism and I desperately want all our Welsh regions and players collectively and individually to achieve. When the Ospreys had 24000 watching them beat Australia they were a powerful unit but financially it couldn't be sustained. Like you lot with your spuds we have to grow our own but even when we do that there's not much room for all the Welsh players in just 4 Regions. I need a pint with you and few hours to explain this better though

The problem with all our internationals staying is that there are only a finite number of starting places, and the next wave of players won't get game time if no one leaves. It's like a conveyor belt - it goes to pot if you don't take the finished product off the end of it. So either the established players leave, or the up-and-coming players leave to get the game time they need to develop. Financially, at least, it makes sense to sell the established players than to sell the younger players.

I think as long as it is controlled and openly discussed by the regions and the wru then it works.

It's only if greedy agents see pound signs, and discard a players international ambitions, that these things seem to go wrong.

The governing bodies do need to clamp down harshly on club owners disruption of the international game.

Mourad Boudjella comes to mind..

RubyGuby wrote:Fly - I know where you're coming from here and to some extent I'm not disagreeing with you. As a Welshman we thrive on passion and parochialism and I desperately want all our Welsh regions and players collectively and individually to achieve. When the Ospreys had 24000 watching them beat Australia they were a powerful unit but financially it couldn't be sustained. Like you lot with your spuds we have to grow our own but even when we do that there's not much room for all the Welsh players in just 4 Regions. I need a pint with you and few hours to explain this better though

Ruby a couple of points, there were 9 first team players away with TW for the following weekends game against Australia, there were also Lee Byrne and Justin Marshall out injured, so it was basically a reserve Team, the capacity of the Liberty was never 24000, it is 20400, it will probably be extended very soon due to the Swans rise up the Football ladder, as for couldn't be sustained the Ospreys had a break even figure of 10000, which at that point was being reached, it did start to drop off a season or two later, if the local population was not prepared to come out in those figures for the kind of Rugby being played, I don't know what they will come out for.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The problem with all our internationals staying is that there are only a finite number of starting places, and the next wave of players won't get game time if no one leaves. It's like a conveyor belt - it goes to pot if you don't take the finished product off the end of it. So either the established players leave, or the up-and-coming players leave to get the game time they need to develop. Financially, at least, it makes sense to sell the established players than to sell the younger players.

Luckless I totally agree, that the older players should be allowed to leave, the thing about not enough places for starting places, is that there are plenty of games when these youngsters can play, LV in the past few years, A teams that are being proposed and some of these other returning could be fast tracked to the RGC franchise and we could have our very own Connaught. The only players that have left us voluntarily IIRC were, Craig Mitchell and Sam Lewis, so the majority are happy with how they progress within our system, some players we did have to let go because of the financial pressures we were under, one of which has just returned (Paul James), if some of the others returned, it would help not only the Regions but TW and the players themselves IMO.

My personal view is that we shouldn't stop picking layers just because of where they play, we have proved that we don't have the depth to cope.

What I think should happen though is that the ruling should be made more clear cut and as has been suggested none of these exceptional clauses.

Just been watching Gavin Henson play for Bristol.

Is his international days rugby done altogether?

Or has he simply fell out of favour with Gatland and the rest of the coaching team?

majesticimperialman wrote:Just been watching Gavin Henson play for Bristol.

Is his international days rugby done altogether?

Or has he simply fell out of favour with Gatland and the rest of the coaching team?

I think it's more a case of falling out ...without the favour at the end.  It seems he's fallen out with too many people in Wales period - players, coaches, teams and tea ladies.

I'm not sure how much he draws it upon himself or simply how much his attitude of uber-confidence just seems to rub people up the wrong way.  I've never seen too much that was exceedinly offensive in his nature - a messer yes, a self publicist yes, a guy who can't help getting fisted in the face when drunk seemingly...yes .... but overall, I think there are worse than old Henson and his reputation lost him his chances not his talent, which to me was always potent enough to be included in a Welsh squad

Henson broke his shin at the end of last season so is only just returning from injury. Even if he had been fit I don't think he was that close to a call-up.

Which is a pity because he seems to have put his worst behavior behind him. He is still a class centre and can play 10 and 15. Ha s a siege gun boot and IMO when we are so under the cosh in the backs would be a perfect call up to shore up 2nd rank.

He seems to have get a fair few injuries at the wrong times these days.

SecretFly wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Just been watching Gavin Henson play for Bristol.

Is his international days rugby done altogether?

Or has he simply fell out of favour with Gatland and the rest of the coaching team?

I think it's more a case of falling out ...without the favour at the end.  It seems he's fallen out with too many people in Wales period - players, coaches, teams and tea ladies.

I'm not sure how much he draws it upon himself or simply how much his attitude of uber-confidence just seems to rub people up the wrong way.  I've never seen too much that was exceedinly offensive in his nature - a messer yes, a self publicist yes, a guy who can't help getting fisted in the face when drunk seemingly...yes .... but overall, I think there are worse than old Henson and his reputation lost him his chances not his talent, which to me was always potent enough to be included in a Welsh squad

I wouldn't say it was anything to do with falling out. He looked good pre RWC 2011 then suffered a nasty injury against England. Since then he's been shifted between positions then played in a lower league and was injured again. He still looks good mind but is probably too old to be considered along with his lack of higher level game time.

So...!

Talk from Jonathan Davies on Scrum v was to start the first game on Sunday with a near full strength team.

Despite injuries incurred last match