Gwent Dragons 2015/16 thread

[PhilBB]

First topic message reminder :

I don't need to address anything, I am one fan with an opinion the same as you and any other fan.

Sure, but here I am trying to understand your opinion yet, sadly, you won't address a key element of it.

Previously you wrote: "Only sad, narrow minded parochial people stuck in the amateur era mindset would see gwent as something in direct competition to newport." so I wrote a detailed, honest and clear answer as to why that insult is misplaced.

It's misplaced because one club is carrying all of the risk but with only 50% ownership.

Do you think it fair that one club carries all of the financial risk, without total ownership, for a "Gwent" team? Sure, you don't need to address the question but, in all fairness, it will speak volumes if you don't address it.

[Guest]

Tom Isaacs.

Ieuan Jones improved so much he can't even get in our A team

He went from you to the Blues, and because of an injury crisis we took a punt on him, and you were stupid enough to then take him back, funnily enough Aled Brew did something similar, us, loaned to you, brought him back, let him go, signed for you, where is he now? Now that is a piece of turd.

Have you just referred to Brew as a 'piece of turd'? You're stooping to new lows now Wayne. I'm disappointed in you. Are you actually a rugby fan? Or do you spend your Saturdays at the football throwing glass bottles at the opposition fans?

[Guest]

So from different posters he was now so good in 2014, so how come in 2 seasons for the dragons he was only involved in 24 games in total (can't be bothered to look how many of those he started or subbed) in less than 2 seasons with a much better team he has played in 47 (that's forty seven), 28 in his first season and 19 up to now this season, he will probably be over 50 appearances by seasons end, now that is what is called appreciated.
I think it was Griff (if it wasn't I'm sorry) who brought Tom Isaacs into the debate, considering he only played for one season for the Dragons, and in that monumental season he played 7 games, whereas in 5 seasons for us he played 66 games although I must admit the majority were as a substitute, so yes he definitely improved under us.
True Raven yes he has been so bad that he has played in all our major matches this season, no emergency cover has been brought in to cover for him, what I will say is he is not as good as last season, when he was voted Player of the Season by our supporters (think) and according to the Fail when the Guinness Team of the Season was voted on Liam Williams was selected at full back with honourable mention to Dan, and yet he hasn't improved.
Considering this topic has been hijacked into thinking I was talking about the Dragons, (because 2 posters can't comprehend basic English) when there are so many others who have improved, you only have to look at our squad for this season to see a number who have benefitted from being in our environment, not necessarily this season because of injury but over the past 2 or 3 seasons.

You seem to be confusing volume of games played with improvement. Playing more games doesn't necessarily mean you've improved. Tom Isaacs playing more doesn't mean 'definitely improved under us'. They're mutually exclusive things.

[wayne]

So from different posters he was now so good in 2014, so how come in 2 seasons for the dragons he was only involved in 24 games in total (can't be bothered to look how many of those he started or subbed) in less than 2 seasons with a much better team he has played in 47 (that's forty seven), 28 in his first season and 19 up to now this season, he will probably be over 50 appearances by seasons end, now that is what is called appreciated.
I think it was Griff (if it wasn't I'm sorry) who brought Tom Isaacs into the debate, considering he only played for one season for the Dragons, and in that monumental season he played 7 games, whereas in 5 seasons for us he played 66 games although I must admit the majority were as a substitute, so yes he definitely improved under us.
True Raven yes he has been so bad that he has played in all our major matches this season, no emergency cover has been brought in to cover for him, what I will say is he is not as good as last season, when he was voted Player of the Season by our supporters (think) and according to the Fail when the Guinness Team of the Season was voted on Liam Williams was selected at full back with honourable mention to Dan, and yet he hasn't improved.
Considering this topic has been hijacked into thinking I was talking about the Dragons, (because 2 posters can't comprehend basic English) when there are so many others who have improved, you only have to look at our squad for this season to see a number who have benefitted from being in our environment, not necessarily this season because of injury but over the past 2 or 3 seasons.

You seem to be confusing volume of games played with improvement. Playing more games doesn't necessarily mean you've improved. Tom Isaacs playing more doesn't mean 'definitely improved under us'. They're mutually exclusive things.

Griff I've amended my original post to show that Tom Isaacs only played 4 seasons for us and in 66 appearances he started 35 games and subbed in the other 31, he played more games in his first season with us than in the one season with you and for the next 2 seasons he increased his appearances, that to me shows improvement.

[wayne]

Tom Isaacs.

Ieuan Jones improved so much he can't even get in our A team

He went from you to the Blues, and because of an injury crisis we took a punt on him, and you were stupid enough to then take him back, funnily enough Aled Brew did something similar, us, loaned to you, brought him back, let him go, signed for you, where is he now? Now that is a piece of turd.

Have you just referred to Brew as a 'piece of turd'? You're stooping to new lows now Wayne. I'm disappointed in you. Are you actually a rugby fan? Or do you spend your Saturdays at the football throwing glass bottles at the opposition fans?

You could be right, it was below the belt and I take it back, Aled was not very good for us on both occasions he was in our ranks, but you have to see where it was directed, after some of the names I've been called on here, I thought some had to fly back, you know very well I'm a rugby fan, haven't been to a first class football match in years, Play off game that Wales lost to (think) Russia in Cardiff

[Guest]

So from different posters he was now so good in 2014, so how come in 2 seasons for the dragons he was only involved in 24 games in total (can't be bothered to look how many of those he started or subbed) in less than 2 seasons with a much better team he has played in 47 (that's forty seven), 28 in his first season and 19 up to now this season, he will probably be over 50 appearances by seasons end, now that is what is called appreciated.
I think it was Griff (if it wasn't I'm sorry) who brought Tom Isaacs into the debate, considering he only played for one season for the Dragons, and in that monumental season he played 7 games, whereas in 5 seasons for us he played 66 games although I must admit the majority were as a substitute, so yes he definitely improved under us.
True Raven yes he has been so bad that he has played in all our major matches this season, no emergency cover has been brought in to cover for him, what I will say is he is not as good as last season, when he was voted Player of the Season by our supporters (think) and according to the Fail when the Guinness Team of the Season was voted on Liam Williams was selected at full back with honourable mention to Dan, and yet he hasn't improved.
Considering this topic has been hijacked into thinking I was talking about the Dragons, (because 2 posters can't comprehend basic English) when there are so many others who have improved, you only have to look at our squad for this season to see a number who have benefitted from being in our environment, not necessarily this season because of injury but over the past 2 or 3 seasons.

You seem to be confusing volume of games played with improvement. Playing more games doesn't necessarily mean you've improved. Tom Isaacs playing more doesn't mean 'definitely improved under us'. They're mutually exclusive things.

Griff I've amended my original post to show that Tom Isaacs only played 4 seasons for us and in 66 appearances he started 35 games and subbed in the other 31, he played more games in his first season with us than in the one season with you and for the next 2 seasons he increased his appearances, that to me shows improvement.

I don't get you. We're talking about improvement in rugby playing performance, not improvement in selection rate. They don't necessarily mean the same thing. For example, he might have got more game time as the Ospreys have more call ups than the Dragons so called upon more to cover. That doesn't necessarily mean he was better. What we want to know is whether these players' performances improved - try scoring rate, metres gained, tackles made, turnovers, etc.

[Guest]

Tom Isaacs.

Ieuan Jones improved so much he can't even get in our A team

He went from you to the Blues, and because of an injury crisis we took a punt on him, and you were stupid enough to then take him back, funnily enough Aled Brew did something similar, us, loaned to you, brought him back, let him go, signed for you, where is he now? Now that is a piece of turd.

Have you just referred to Brew as a 'piece of turd'? You're stooping to new lows now Wayne. I'm disappointed in you. Are you actually a rugby fan? Or do you spend your Saturdays at the football throwing glass bottles at the opposition fans?

You could be right, it was below the belt and I take it back, Aled was not very good for us on both occasions he was in our ranks, but you have to see where it was directed, after some of the names I've been called on here, I thought some had to fly back, you know very well I'm a rugby fan, haven't been to a first class football match in years, Play off game that Wales lost to (think) Russia in Cardiff

OK, well if you go by YOUR criteria then Brew improved as he made many more appearances for us than you on average per season. However, going by better criteria I'd say he improved with us as he was in the top 5 try scorers for the league on two consecutive seasons, top dragons try scorer in others, broke into the Welsh squad, etc. al while playing for us (a poor team at the bottom of the league, which must be pretty hard to score tries for compared to better teams ). Didn't manage that with the Ospryeys, so I'd say that points to improvement. He went downhill when he left us.

[wayne]

So from different posters he was now so good in 2014, so how come in 2 seasons for the dragons he was only involved in 24 games in total (can't be bothered to look how many of those he started or subbed) in less than 2 seasons with a much better team he has played in 47 (that's forty seven), 28 in his first season and 19 up to now this season, he will probably be over 50 appearances by seasons end, now that is what is called appreciated.
I think it was Griff (if it wasn't I'm sorry) who brought Tom Isaacs into the debate, considering he only played for one season for the Dragons, and in that monumental season he played 7 games, whereas in 5 seasons for us he played 66 games although I must admit the majority were as a substitute, so yes he definitely improved under us.
True Raven yes he has been so bad that he has played in all our major matches this season, no emergency cover has been brought in to cover for him, what I will say is he is not as good as last season, when he was voted Player of the Season by our supporters (think) and according to the Fail when the Guinness Team of the Season was voted on Liam Williams was selected at full back with honourable mention to Dan, and yet he hasn't improved.
Considering this topic has been hijacked into thinking I was talking about the Dragons, (because 2 posters can't comprehend basic English) when there are so many others who have improved, you only have to look at our squad for this season to see a number who have benefitted from being in our environment, not necessarily this season because of injury but over the past 2 or 3 seasons.

You seem to be confusing volume of games played with improvement. Playing more games doesn't necessarily mean you've improved. Tom Isaacs playing more doesn't mean 'definitely improved under us'. They're mutually exclusive things.

Griff I've amended my original post to show that Tom Isaacs only played 4 seasons for us and in 66 appearances he started 35 games and subbed in the other 31, he played more games in his first season with us than in the one season with you and for the next 2 seasons he increased his appearances, that to me shows improvement.

I don't get you. We're talking about improvement in rugby playing performance, not improvement in selection rate. They don't necessarily mean the same thing. For example, he might have got more game time as the Ospreys have more call ups than the Dragons so called upon more to cover. That doesn't necessarily mean he was better. What we want to know is whether these players' performances improved - try scoring rate, metres gained, tackles made, turnovers, etc.

If you can find all those facts good luck to you, Tom Isaacs successively increased his appearances with us in his first 3 seasons, playing for a much better team (and we were) that to me shows improvement, otherwise we have to agree to disagree, he started too many games in his second and third seasons to be just a TW call up cover.
The season before he joined you he was with Cardiff RFC and then he stepped up to play for you, but less than 10 times and he obviously stepped up to a better team and with more appearances each season, so if you cannot see an improvement there well as I said ATD

[Guest]

Ok then ATD. As I see it he was average for us and average for you.

[wayne]

Tom Isaacs.

Ieuan Jones improved so much he can't even get in our A team

He went from you to the Blues, and because of an injury crisis we took a punt on him, and you were stupid enough to then take him back, funnily enough Aled Brew did something similar, us, loaned to you, brought him back, let him go, signed for you, where is he now? Now that is a piece of turd.

Have you just referred to Brew as a 'piece of turd'? You're stooping to new lows now Wayne. I'm disappointed in you. Are you actually a rugby fan? Or do you spend your Saturdays at the football throwing glass bottles at the opposition fans?

You could be right, it was below the belt and I take it back, Aled was not very good for us on both occasions he was in our ranks, but you have to see where it was directed, after some of the names I've been called on here, I thought some had to fly back, you know very well I'm a rugby fan, haven't been to a first class football match in years, Play off game that Wales lost to (think) Russia in Cardiff

OK, well if you go by YOUR criteria then Brew improved as he made many more appearances for us than you on average per season. However, going by better criteria I'd say he improved with us as he was in the top 5 try scorers for the league on two consecutive seasons, top dragons try scorer in others, broke into the Welsh squad, etc. al while playing for us (a poor team at the bottom of the league, which must be pretty hard to score tries for compared to better teams ). Didn't manage that with the Ospryeys, so I'd say that points to improvement. He went downhill when he left us.

No he didn't improve, he just had less class in front of him, who was in front of him at the Ospreys? Got into the Welsh squad and discarded nearly as quickly, so being the Dragons top try scorer makes him improve?

[Guest]

Wayne, he got into the Welsh squad because he was prolific. In the top 5 scorers in the league 2 seasons running, playing for a poor team who probably create less chances than others, is not to be sniffed at. If you can't see that then I don't think we'll ever agree on anything.

[True Raven]

Fionn Carr used to score plenty of tries for Connacht but they all dried up when he moved to Leinster. Being on the end of a try doesn't necessarily make you a great player

[Guest]

Fionn Carr used to score plenty of tries for Connacht but they all dried up when he moved to Leinster.  Being on the end of a try doesn't necessarily make you a great player

True, but Brew definitely improved with us

[True Raven]

No arguments here

[wayne]

Wayne, he got into the Welsh squad because he was prolific. In the top 5 scorers in the league 2 seasons running, playing for a poor team who probably create less chances than others, is not to be sniffed at. If you can't see that then I don't think we'll ever agree on anything.

What, go and find the stats you are so proud of to say you created less chances, I wouldn't mind betting he dropped as many balls for us, as he scored tries for you, to me he was a one cap wonder, although winning nine caps, there was only one starting against a meaningful team, the rest were friendlies and as a sub, as I asked earlier and you couldn't be bothered to answer the reason he had so few chances with us was we had a decent winger ahead of him, and when given the chance he flopped. As you didn't have anybody of the calibre of our number one man, he's obviously going to get more chances.

[Guest]

Wayne, he got into the Welsh squad because he was prolific. In the top 5 scorers in the league 2 seasons running, playing for a poor team who probably create less chances than others, is not to be sniffed at. If you can't see that then I don't think we'll ever agree on anything.

What, go and find the stats you are so proud of to say you created less chances, I wouldn't mind betting he dropped as many balls for us, as he scored tries for you, to me he was a one cap wonder, although winning nine caps, there was only one starting against a meaningful team, the rest were friendlies and as a sub, as I asked earlier and you couldn't be bothered to answer the reason he had so few chances with us was we had a decent winger ahead of him, and when given the chance he flopped. As you didn't have anybody of the calibre of our number one man, he's obviously going to get more chances.

Why are you being so aggressive? You're the Ospreys version of Mikey Dragon for me. Put your keyboard down for a sec, deep breath, count to 10, aaaaaaand relax.

The point I'm trying to get across is that appearances don't mean you've improved. It's what you do on the field. And Brew was a better player on the field for us than you, which means improvement. It's all just opinions though. None of this can be proven as its all guesswork. One persons preference to another. But at least if we use some objective performance measures like tries scored or metres gained, that's a bit better than just appearances. Mike Phillips probably made more appearances for you than the Blues, but for me he was at his best at the Blues. My opinion of course. So improvement? No. More appearances? Yes.

[Stone Motif]

Wayne, he got into the Welsh squad because he was prolific. In the top 5 scorers in the league 2 seasons running, playing for a poor team who probably create less chances than others, is not to be sniffed at. If you can't see that then I don't think we'll ever agree on anything.

What, go and find the stats you are so proud of to say you created less chances, I wouldn't mind betting he dropped as many balls for us, as he scored tries for you, to me he was a one cap wonder, although winning nine caps, there was only one starting against a meaningful team, the rest were friendlies and as a sub, as I asked earlier and you couldn't be bothered to answer the reason he had so few chances with us was we had a decent winger ahead of him, and when given the chance he flopped. As you didn't have anybody of the calibre of our number one man, he's obviously going to get more chances.

How.many starts did Isaacs make at scrum half (hid favoured position)?

You're just lamenting your team's inability to develop any decent wingers you moron. No vastly superior team to the Dragons had Tom Isaacs stinking the place up out of position all season.

[wayne]

Wayne, he got into the Welsh squad because he was prolific. In the top 5 scorers in the league 2 seasons running, playing for a poor team who probably create less chances than others, is not to be sniffed at. If you can't see that then I don't think we'll ever agree on anything.

What, go and find the stats you are so proud of to say you created less chances, I wouldn't mind betting he dropped as many balls for us, as he scored tries for you, to me he was a one cap wonder, although winning nine caps, there was only one starting against a meaningful team, the rest were friendlies and as a sub, as I asked earlier and you couldn't be bothered to answer the reason he had so few chances with us was we had a decent winger ahead of him, and when given the chance he flopped. As you didn't have anybody of the calibre of our number one man, he's obviously going to get more chances.

Why are you being so aggressive? You're the Ospreys version of Mikey Dragon for me. Put your keyboard down for a sec, deep breath, count to 10, aaaaaaand relax.

The point I'm trying to get across is that appearances don't mean you've improved. It's what you do on the field. And Brew was a better player on the field for us than you, which means improvement. It's all just opinions though. None of this can be proven as its all guesswork. One persons preference to another. But at least if we use some objective performance measures like tries scored or metres gained, that's a bit better than just appearances. Mike Phillips probably made more appearances for you than the Blues, but for me he was at his best at the Blues. My opinion of course. So improvement? No. More appearances? Yes.

Griff we are not going to agree, a player Isaacs goes up two standards Cardiff RFC (not Blues) Newport Gwent Dragons, Ospreys in successive seasons and in his first 3 seasons with us he increased the number of times he played for us, whereas another player Brew went down a level and scored more tries whether it was a fifty yard run in or a 5 yard drop over who knows.
What I can agree with you is the Mike Phillips scenario, but nothing to do with appearances, there has been many a poll on our forum about the effectiveness of certain players and certain positions and Mike is nowhere near the top rated 9s over the years for us, Spice, Marshall, Fotualli, Webb and even Nutbrown had more admirers than Mike, a very divisive character
Just to add Mike played as many average games per season for the Blues as he did for us, he just played an extra season with us, as probably the only game I seen him play for the Blues was against us when Marshall schooled him, I didn't rate him very highly then.
Time to leave this thread as the caveman is back

[mikey_dragon]

A threat? Far from it and you won't find any of that in my posting history. Just saying how it is.

I have done, several times. I got bored of your generic response (which I clearly pointed out), so I no longer wish to engage with you. You're boring as well btw.

Not 'saying how it is' but how you think it is. The two, as your posting history also proves, are often detached.

You've not justified much at all, if anything. You've not addressed how Evans performing at a higher level than he ever did with the NGD is clearly an improvement in his play.

I can see why you'd run from anybody who unpicks your flimsy and baseless opinions, but try not to be so transparent about it.

A bit like you then?

I replied to a post which stated that a number of individuals had gone (assuming from the Dragons) to the Ospreys and improved.

That is your problem Saint, why would you assume that I was talking only about Dragons players joining the Ospreys, when there are so few that we've taken from your Region, what would it be Dan Evans, Ian Gough and Richard Fussell is there many others? No I was talking about many players from different clubs, for your information 2 of the above materially improved since joining us IMO, and the third enjoyed far more success with us than with the Dragons and also furthered his education with WRU Coaching badges which he is now using in some backwater area.

Because you're commenting on a Dragons thread? You came in with a nasty and unnecessary post and I couldn't understand why, therefore assumed you were attention seeking. I'm not sure why you think Gough improved? The only reason Ospreys wanted him was to gain another capped international on their books. He was already a Wales regular, so again I'm not sure where you think he improved? Richard Fussell dear god. He was a limited player with us and nothing changed when he joined you, in fact I often thought he was the worst player on the pitch in all his games for Ospreys. When I read Ospreys fans saying that he should be capped for Wales I had to slap myself to see if I was dreaming - it just goes show how delusional you fan boys really are .

You really are thick, can you read and comprehend English, Gough was the one who enjoyed more success (tell me what trophies he won with the Dregs) and got his coaching badges through us. You got pulled up the other day by saying ALL Ospreys supporters, and when shown up you used the pathetic excuse that you frequent other forums, it still doesn't make ALL.
Fussell was never International class and I've never said he was, but considering he made himself into an adequate stopgap for us in 2 positions he definitely improved, and this is just sour grapes because we TOOK him and the other 2 from you.

I can assure you I'm not and I can read, you angry little pip squeak. Oh wow, I really said the word ALL? Jeez, you got me well snared there. If at the time I did say that then I was intending to wind someone up. I guess it's worked wonders for you to still be frothing at the mouth over it weeks later .
Well done to Goughy on helping you win those trophies, but I don't see how that means he improved as a player? He just went to a better team, and actually slipped down the Wales pecking order at the time of the move... I would have liked to have kept hold of him, but you were most welcome to the other 2. I also wouldn't have minded Lydiate back but it's not something I lose sleep over, which is unfortunate for you because you're running out of ammo.

I've already told you, Gough WASN'T the one that I said improved, that was Fussell and Evans, so YES you are thick, Gough improved his success rate, (that wasn't hard as he had won SFA with you lot), he improved his coaching credentials which were non existent until he joined us, Lydiate made the point how he needed to become a better player and not be a one trick pony as he was with you, I purposely left him out as there was a team in between us 2, but yet again as he admitted in an interview with the Ospreys Supporters Club, he has more strings to his bow, especially carrying and lineout work.
What ammo am I running out of? I haven't named any of the players I was referring to in my opening point, because of your ineptitude in reading skills (assuming).
As for me frothing at the mouth, don't flatter yourself, I have a very good memory as I showed in our Private Message discussion when you had to APOLOGISE.

You brought him up. And I suggest you look at your opening post which started all this crap, and consider improving your understanding of grammar. So Gough improved his success rate despite the fact he achieved his highest honours (Wales duty) whilst at the Dragons, and never really got back to those heights - therefore he improved as a player? To me that makes no sense what so ever. Mentioning his coaching credentials is irrelevant.
Lydiate insinuated that he was a one trick pony because of his career at the Dragons? What an odd thing to say, you're probably telling porkies on that one.
You're running out of ammo because everything you say, including these ghost like accusations (the mods have run the check btw), don't bother me in the slightest. Every time I see that you've replied a big fat grin comes to my face because you get so angry , and over so little, such as people disagreeing with you and not thinking that SOME of your players are as good as they're rated in Ospreylia. I do ask that you stop derailing the thread with Phil out of respect for the other supporters here, but part of me would like you to keep this up because I can't stop smiling , see.

[Guest]

Wayne, he got into the Welsh squad because he was prolific. In the top 5 scorers in the league 2 seasons running, playing for a poor team who probably create less chances than others, is not to be sniffed at. If you can't see that then I don't think we'll ever agree on anything.

What, go and find the stats you are so proud of to say you created less chances, I wouldn't mind betting he dropped as many balls for us, as he scored tries for you, to me he was a one cap wonder, although winning nine caps, there was only one starting against a meaningful team, the rest were friendlies and as a sub, as I asked earlier and you couldn't be bothered to answer the reason he had so few chances with us was we had a decent winger ahead of him, and when given the chance he flopped. As you didn't have anybody of the calibre of our number one man, he's obviously going to get more chances.

Why are you being so aggressive? You're the Ospreys version of Mikey Dragon for me. Put your keyboard down for a sec, deep breath, count to 10, aaaaaaand relax.

The point I'm trying to get across is that appearances don't mean you've improved. It's what you do on the field. And Brew was a better player on the field for us than you, which means improvement. It's all just opinions though. None of this can be proven as its all guesswork. One persons preference to another. But at least if we use some objective performance measures like tries scored or metres gained, that's a bit better than just appearances. Mike Phillips probably made more appearances for you than the Blues, but for me he was at his best at the Blues. My opinion of course. So improvement? No. More appearances? Yes.

Griff we are not going to agree, a player Isaacs goes up two standards Cardiff RFC (not Blues) Newport Gwent Dragons, Ospreys in successive seasons and in his first 3 seasons with us he increased the number of times he played for us, whereas another player Brew went down a level and scored more tries whether it was a fifty yard run in or a 5 yard drop over who knows.
What I can agree with you is the Mike Phillips scenario, but nothing to do with appearances, there has been many a poll on our forum about the effectiveness of certain players and certain positions and Mike is nowhere near the top rated 9s over the years for us, Spice, Marshall, Fotualli, Webb and even Nutbrown had more admirers than Mike, a very divisive character
Just to add Mike played as many average games per season for the Blues as he did for us, he just played an extra season with us, as probably the only game I seen him play for the Blues was against us when Marshall schooled him, I didn't rate him very highly then.
Time to leave this thread as the caveman is back

You do realise that the Ospreys and the Dragons are both on the Pro12??? Brew did not 'step down a level'. He scored tries against the same opposition that the Ospreys played. You're really clutching at straws here.

[mikey_dragon]

Tom Isaacs.

Ieuan Jones improved so much he can't even get in our A team

He went from you to the Blues, and because of an injury crisis we took a punt on him, and you were stupid enough to then take him back, funnily enough Aled Brew did something similar, us, loaned to you, brought him back, let him go, signed for you, where is he now? Now that is a piece of turd.

Have you just referred to Brew as a 'piece of turd'? You're stooping to new lows now Wayne. I'm disappointed in you. Are you actually a rugby fan? Or do you spend your Saturdays at the football throwing glass bottles at the opposition fans?

Yes he does.

[mikey_dragon]

He was 'shining' for the Dragons, too.

I'm not trying to score points here, I just don't think you can say a player who has moved from one club to a better one must be playing better than he ever has before, purely because he's moved clubs.

It truly is an idiots logic, as is believing that your own opinions are 100% fact and nothing else matters - yes I'm looking at you here PhilBB.

Isn't it possible that he's playing no better or worse than before?

Sure, it's possible, but what would temper that is that he is now proving it at a higher level.

Let's remember that he was ousted from the NGD because Lyn Jones told him that Byrne and Amos (ha!) would be his full backs. So it's clear that he's gone from an outcast at the worst pro team in Wales to shining for the best at a higher level than he ever performed at for the NGD.

Doesn't that lean toward an improvement in his play?

He's not shining for the Ospreys at all this season, he's looked limited in attack and has dropped far too many passes and high balls this season that a professional player shouldn't. You guys do realise you're talking about Dan Evans here right? He's hardly improved since he left the dragons because he didn't have a high ceiling in the first place.

True Raven I have to say it's rarity I come across such an unbiased fan of the Ospreys, but you do give a good account of the supporters from down there, which is in great contrast to Wayne. If you believe what you say, as a number of others in here believe what I say then it seems my comments did have substance after all. I'm glad it's finally settled that Dan Evans is on the same level as he was at the Dragons and Wayne (and PhillBB) was wrong.

[mikey_dragon]

Wayne, he got into the Welsh squad because he was prolific. In the top 5 scorers in the league 2 seasons running, playing for a poor team who probably create less chances than others, is not to be sniffed at. If you can't see that then I don't think we'll ever agree on anything.

What, go and find the stats you are so proud of to say you created less chances, I wouldn't mind betting he dropped as many balls for us, as he scored tries for you, to me he was a one cap wonder, although winning nine caps, there was only one starting against a meaningful team, the rest were friendlies and as a sub, as I asked earlier and you couldn't be bothered to answer the reason he had so few chances with us was we had a decent winger ahead of him, and when given the chance he flopped. As you didn't have anybody of the calibre of our number one man, he's obviously going to get more chances.

Why are you being so aggressive? You're the Ospreys version of Mikey Dragon for me. Put your keyboard down for a sec, deep breath, count to 10, aaaaaaand relax.

The point I'm trying to get across is that appearances don't mean you've improved. It's what you do on the field. And Brew was a better player on the field for us than you, which means improvement. It's all just opinions though. None of this can be proven as its all guesswork. One persons preference to another. But at least if we use some objective performance measures like tries scored or metres gained, that's a bit better than just appearances. Mike Phillips probably made more appearances for you than the Blues, but for me he was at his best at the Blues. My opinion of course. So improvement? No. More appearances? Yes.

I resent that.

Sound logic Griff, a great contrasting logic to Phil's. I wonder if we should mention that Richard Fussell was Rabo top try scorer whilst at the Dragons?

[Stone Motif]

Time to leave this thread as the caveman is back

Or in other words, "I better flounce, because I know p5ss all about rugby"

[PhilBB]

Can I add weight to the Dan Evans argument too: he was bloody good for the Dragons, in my opinion. Don't have his metres gained stats to hand but he was consistently the top of the stats for metres gained and players beaten when playing for us. Scored a load of tries too. I was very sad to see him go.

To shine as a back in a rubbish team, one with little or no platform, not a great team for backs to show their skills, shows how good he was for us. Must be easy for him at the O's with that platform

He was so good for the NGD that Lyn Jones told him he wasn't wanted at full back.

[PhilBB]

He was 'shining' for the Dragons, too.

I'm not trying to score points here, I just don't think you can say a player who has moved from one club to a better one must be playing better than he ever has before, purely because he's moved clubs.

Who is making that case?

[PhilBB]

Or an improvement in the platform that creates the space for him. Having the likes of Biggar putting him in space vs Tovey or Angus O'Brien. Having world class forwards freeing you up to concentrate on your running game rather than digging around in rucks for the ball, as was probably the case at the Dragons

Very fair point.

[PhilBB]

He's not shining for the Ospreys at all this season, he's looked limited in attack and has dropped far too many passes and high balls this season that a professional player shouldn't.  You guys do realise you're talking about Dan Evans here right?  He's hardly improved since he left the dragons because he didn't have a high ceiling in the first place.  

Rightio. The media certainly disagrees with your assessment of his play, by the way.

[PhilBB]

It truly is an idiots logic, as is believing that your own opinions are 100% fact and nothing else matters - yes I'm looking at you here PhilBB.

If I believed that, why would I spend time discussing mine, and other people's, opinions on a message board?

So you've got that wrong, by definition, too.

[PhilBB]

True Raven I have to say it's rarity I come across such an unbiased fan of the Ospreys, but you do give a good account of the supporters from down there, which is in great contrast to Wayne. If you believe what you say, as a number of others in here believe what I say then it seems my comments did have substance after all. I'm glad it's finally settled that Dan Evans is on the same level as he was at the Dragons and Wayne (and PhillBB) was wrong.

Why do you think that there is so much in the media that counters the view whose coat tails you are hanging on to?

[Luckless Pedestrian]

He was 'shining' for the Dragons, too.

I'm not trying to score points here, I just don't think you can say a player who has moved from one club to a better one must be playing better than he ever has before, purely because he's moved clubs.

Who is making that case?

Weren't you saying that Dan Evans was playing better for the Ospreys than he ever did for the Dragons?

[PhilBB]

He was 'shining' for the Dragons, too.

I'm not trying to score points here, I just don't think you can say a player who has moved from one club to a better one must be playing better than he ever has before, purely because he's moved clubs.

Who is making that case?

Weren't you saying that Dan Evans was playing better for the Ospreys than he ever did for the Dragons?

I'm pointing out that he is performing at a higher standard than he ever did for the NGD. I'm not claiming that he improved simply because he moved clubs. There's an obvious difference between the two.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

If by higher standard you mean in the Champions Cup, then I agree. Other than that, I don't see him doing anything for the Ospreys that he didn't do for the Dragons.

[Guest]

Can I add weight to the Dan Evans argument too: he was bloody good for the Dragons, in my opinion. Don't have his metres gained stats to hand but he was consistently the top of the stats for metres gained and players beaten when playing for us. Scored a load of tries too. I was very sad to see him go.

To shine as a back in a rubbish team, one with little or no platform, not a great team for backs to show their skills, shows how good he was for us. Must be easy for him at the O's with that platform

He was so good for the NGD that Lyn Jones told him he wasn't wanted at full back.

Ahh not fair! You're introducing a new variable into the argument: a crazy coach! Although that strengthens the argument that this is all subjective. A coach not picking him is not a great argument that his performance levels have changed. Lyn may not have liked him, personality wise. Happens all the time.

[mikey_dragon]

He's not shining for the Ospreys at all this season, he's looked limited in attack and has dropped far too many passes and high balls this season that a professional player shouldn't.  You guys do realise you're talking about Dan Evans here right?  He's hardly improved since he left the dragons because he didn't have a high ceiling in the first place.  

Rightio. The media certainly disagrees with your assessment of his play, by the way.

[mikey_dragon]

It truly is an idiots logic, as is believing that your own opinions are 100% fact and nothing else matters - yes I'm looking at you here PhilBB.

If I believed that, why would I spend time discussing mine, and other people's, opinions on a message board?

So you've got that wrong, by definition, too.

You simply can't accept that not all people share your views. Take a look at this OP, it was hijacked by you long ago and for some reason after a poster tried to separate your rubbish from our thread a bloody mod decided to merge the threads, and we've been stuck with you ever since! I suggest that you acknowledge this and move on.

[mikey_dragon]

True Raven I have to say it's rarity I come across such an unbiased fan of the Ospreys, but you do give a good account of the supporters from down there, which is in great contrast to Wayne. If you believe what you say, as a number of others in here believe what I say then it seems my comments did have substance after all. I'm glad it's finally settled that Dan Evans is on the same level as he was at the Dragons and Wayne (and PhillBB) was wrong.

Why do you think that there is so much in the media that counters the view whose coat tails you are hanging on to?

I don't know, it could be that the media is biased, perhaps? I mean it is their job to brainwash people into being sheep. I rarely watch or read the news, I don't watch MTV and don't listen to radio stations - and I couldn't be happier.

[mikey_dragon]

Can I add weight to the Dan Evans argument too: he was bloody good for the Dragons, in my opinion. Don't have his metres gained stats to hand but he was consistently the top of the stats for metres gained and players beaten when playing for us. Scored a load of tries too. I was very sad to see him go.

To shine as a back in a rubbish team, one with little or no platform, not a great team for backs to show their skills, shows how good he was for us. Must be easy for him at the O's with that platform

He was so good for the NGD that Lyn Jones told him he wasn't wanted at full back.

Ahh not fair!  You're introducing a new variable into the argument: a crazy coach!  Although that strengthens the argument that this is all subjective.  A coach not picking him is not a great argument that his performance levels have changed.  Lyn may not have liked him, personality wise.  Happens all the time.

Crazy yes. If NGD had Byrne, Amos and Prydie on their books (not sure if we had the Jones brothers at the time) as well as Dan then something has got to give I guess. You have one ex-Lion and two U20 graduates who look as if they are going to be Wales players one day (at least they both did at the time), and another player who is very good at this level but probably won't amount to anything more, plus his contract is coming to end. I think both parties must have felt it was a good option. Ospreys were able to offer him the jersey without a challenge as they pretty much didn't have another full back.

[PhilBB]

It truly is an idiots logic, as is believing that your own opinions are 100% fact and nothing else matters - yes I'm looking at you here PhilBB.

If I believed that, why would I spend time discussing mine, and other people's, opinions on a message board?

So you've got that wrong, by definition, too.

You simply can't accept that not all people share your views. Take a look at this OP, it was hijacked by you long ago and for some reason after a poster tried to separate your rubbish from our thread a bloody mod decided to merge the threads, and we've been stuck with you ever since! I suggest that you acknowledge this and move on.

Again, if I couldn't accept that people didn't share my view then I wouldn't publish my view for it to be challenged, nor would I challenge the views of others. Your accusation, therefore, is as illogical as it is clearly fundamentally wrong.

I embrace the fact that others have different opinions. It's a marvellous thing as it allows my ideas to be challenged as are theirs.

The only way this ever falls down is if somebody acts like a teenage girl by throwing tantrums when they are asked to explain a comment or an opinion. And, yes, that's what you do. How about you grow up a little bit and accept that if you publish an opinion on here then it may well be challenged?

[PhilBB]

True Raven I have to say it's rarity I come across such an unbiased fan of the Ospreys, but you do give a good account of the supporters from down there, which is in great contrast to Wayne. If you believe what you say, as a number of others in here believe what I say then it seems my comments did have substance after all. I'm glad it's finally settled that Dan Evans is on the same level as he was at the Dragons and Wayne (and PhillBB) was wrong.

Why do you think that there is so much in the media that counters the view whose coat tails you are hanging on to?

I don't know, it could be that the media is biased, perhaps? I mean it is their job to brainwash people into being sheep. I rarely watch or read the news, I don't watch MTV and don't listen to radio stations - and I couldn't be happier.

Right. I see.

So multiple media outlets have decided to brainwash the Welsh public into thinking that Dan Evans has improved and they've done this by proving that he's performed at a higher level than he managed with the NGD, the same NGD whose coach showed Evans the door.

Rightio.

Although, yes, it is apparent that you don't keep up with events.

[Guest]

Can I add weight to the Dan Evans argument too: he was bloody good for the Dragons, in my opinion. Don't have his metres gained stats to hand but he was consistently the top of the stats for metres gained and players beaten when playing for us. Scored a load of tries too. I was very sad to see him go.

To shine as a back in a rubbish team, one with little or no platform, not a great team for backs to show their skills, shows how good he was for us. Must be easy for him at the O's with that platform

He was so good for the NGD that Lyn Jones told him he wasn't wanted at full back.

Ahh not fair!  You're introducing a new variable into the argument: a crazy coach!  Although that strengthens the argument that this is all subjective.  A coach not picking him is not a great argument that his performance levels have changed.  Lyn may not have liked him, personality wise.  Happens all the time.

Crazy yes. If NGD had Byrne, Amos and Prydie on their books (not sure if we had the Jones brothers at the time) as well as Dan then something has got to give I guess. You have one ex-Lion and two U20 graduates who look as if they are going to be Wales players one day (at least they both did at the time), and another player who is very good at this level but probably won't amount to anything more, plus his contract is coming to end. I think both parties must have felt it was a good option. Ospreys were able to offer him the jersey without a challenge as they pretty much didn't have another full back.

I would have kept him. Was gutted when I heard he was leaving. Poor from Lyn. Similarly, I was gutted when Martyn Thomas left us for Gloucester. Another good FB gone.

Don't forget too that around the time that Dan Evans left the coaches started picking one of their sons at FB too (was it Dorian? Can't remember. Although he's moved to 10 now). That can't have been great for Evans, and perhaps saw the writing on the wall. Shame.

[Steffan]

More Newport v Cardiff bickering?

Love it

[True Raven]

He's not shining for the Ospreys at all this season, he's looked limited in attack and has dropped far too many passes and high balls this season that a professional player shouldn't.  You guys do realise you're talking about Dan Evans here right?  He's hardly improved since he left the dragons because he didn't have a high ceiling in the first place.  

Rightio. The media certainly disagrees with your assessment of his play, by the way.

Lol when you say media, you mean Simon Thomas?

We have no other fullback at the Ospreys so Dan has to play pretty much every game so his stats are going to be skewed because he plays more games than anyone else.

I wonder if Gatland agrees with 'the media's' view because he doesn't seem to

[RiscaGame]

Dan Evans should've kept himself at 15 only at RP. I don't know who was responsible for him trying to play ten, but it never really worked. Whilst Dan Evans did a lot of good, he was also prone to a fair few brainfarts. I believe these are evident less down Swansea way now, so in effect he has improved but then I note Raven say different so who knows.

At the time, I was quite content with our options at 15 with Byrne and Amos for the future. Obviously in hindsight, that wasn't so good for us (due to Byrne's injury and Amos still being one for the future in Lyn's own words). I am still relatively content with what we have at 15 though, if Carl Meyer is available. I'm not saying he's comparable to Dan Evans or anything, but what he does for us is pretty key with his boot etc. I hope he isn't banned today for Thursday as having GR Jones or Nick Scott start would worry me.

In other news Jack Dixon is back light training and Ed Jackson is injured for Thursday. Still no Tyler either, so we will be pretty short in a few key areas.

[PhilBB]

Lol when you say media, you mean Simon Thomas?

We have no other fullback at the Ospreys so Dan has to play pretty much every game so his stats are going to be skewed because he plays more games than anyone else.  

I wonder if Gatland agrees with 'the media's' view because he doesn't seem to

Not just Thomas, I think that I could add Orders and Kirwan, too.

I don't think that Gatland has been asked if Evans has improved since leaving the NGD.

[True Raven]

But if he's shining as you stated, then surely Gatland would have called him up to a training squad, especially when the six nations squad was announced as we were struggling with a full back issue.

Don't get me wrong, last year he had a great season but this year its 'meh' and definately not shining

[ScarletSpiderman]

Dan Evans should've kept himself at 15 only at RP. I don't know who was responsible for him trying to play ten, but it never really worked. Whilst Dan Evans did a lot of good, he was also prone to a fair few brainfarts. I believe these are evident less down Swansea way now, so in effect he has improved but then I note Raven say different so who knows.

At the time, I was quite content with our options at 15 with Byrne and Amos for the future. Obviously in hindsight, that wasn't so good for us (due to Byrne's injury and Amos still being one for the future in Lyn's own words). I am still relatively content with what we have at 15 though, if Carl Meyer is available. I'm not saying he's comparable to Dan Evans or anything, but what he does for us is pretty key with his boot etc. I hope he isn't banned today for Thursday as having GR Jones or Nick Scott start would worry me.

In other news Jack Dixon is back light training and Ed Jackson is injured for Thursday. Still no Tyler either, so we will be pretty short in a few key areas.

I am pretty sure that was one of the reasons mentioned for him wanting to leave the Scarlets in the first place. He saw himself as a fly half who could play at fullback as opposed tot he other way around.

[PhilBB]

But if he's shining as you stated, then surely Gatland would have called him up to a training squad, especially when the six nations squad was announced as we were struggling with a full back issue.

Don't get me wrong, last year he had a great season but this year its 'meh' and definately not shining

Gatland prefers three other fit full backs to him. I'm not sure why that should count towards a viewpoint that he is performing at a level higher than he ever did with the NGD.

[True Raven]

But if he's shining as you stated, then surely Gatland would have called him up to a training squad, especially when the six nations squad was announced as we were struggling with a full back issue.

Don't get me wrong, last year he had a great season but this year its 'meh' and definately not shining

Gatland prefers three other fit full backs to him. I'm not sure why that should count towards a viewpoint that he is performing at a level higher than he ever did with the NGD.

Because you decided to counter my point by saying the media rated him so I was wrong, therefore I was pointing out that Gatland doesn't rate him by not included him in an extended world cup training squad or the six nations squad where our other full backs had very little gametime. I think Luckless Pedestrian said that if you mean performing at a higher level meaning the champions cup then clearly he is playing at a higher level but shining at that level....I dont think so. But we're all entitled to our views

[Stone Motif]

Dan Evans should've kept himself at 15 only at RP. I don't know who was responsible for him trying to play ten, but it never really worked. Whilst Dan Evans did a lot of good, he was also prone to a fair few brainfarts. I believe these are evident less down Swansea way now, so in effect he has improved but then I note Raven say different so who knows.

At the time, I was quite content with our options at 15 with Byrne and Amos for the future. Obviously in hindsight, that wasn't so good for us (due to Byrne's injury and Amos still being one for the future in Lyn's own words). I am still relatively content with what we have at 15 though, if Carl Meyer is available. I'm not saying he's comparable to Dan Evans or anything, but what he does for us is pretty key with his boot etc. I hope he isn't banned today for Thursday as having GR Jones or Nick Scott start would worry me.

In other news Jack Dixon is back light training and Ed Jackson is injured for Thursday. Still no Tyler either, so we will be pretty short in a few key areas.

This. Despite being rolled in One True Region glitter, would anyone say he was a better player than Amos?

Jack Dixon has his work cut out getting back in the team surprisingly. Guess players can improve at our little club when jettisoned from elsewhere too.

[PhilBB]

Because you decided to counter my point by saying the media rated him so I was wrong, therefore I was pointing out that Gatland doesn't rate him by not included him in an extended world cup training squad or the six nations squad where our other full backs had very little gametime.  I think Luckless Pedestrian said that if you mean performing at a higher level meaning the champions cup then clearly he is playing at a higher level but shining at that level....I dont think so.  But we're all entitled to our views

My mentioning of the media was to confirm that Evans has been recognised for his performances in the Champions Cup, thus proving that he has performed at a level above what he managed with the NGD.

Gatland not rating him neither proves nor disproves that he has improved since leaving the NGD, or that Evans has performed well in the Champions Cup.

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