The England World Cup Thread

by **LondonTiger** Sun 13 Sep - 22:06

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

ENGLAND 35 FIJI 11

ENGLAND v WALES at Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 26th September 2015 – Kick Off: 8:00pm
Referee: Jérôme Garcès (FFR)

ENGLAND v AUSTRALIA at Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 3rd October 2015 – Kick Off: 8:00pm
Referee: Romain Poite (FFR)

ENGLAND v URUGUAY at Manchester City Stadium, Manchester
Saturday 10th October 2015 – Kick Off: 8:00pm
Referee: Chris Pollock (NZR)

Other Pool A Fixtures

Sun 20th September 2:30pm Wales v Uruguay Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Wed 23rd September 4:45pm Australia v Fiji Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Sun 27th September 12:00pm Australia v Uruguay Villa Park, Birmingham
Thu 1st October 4:45pm Wales v Fiji Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Tue 6th October 8:00pm Fiji v Uruguay Stadium MK, Milton Keynes
Sat 10th October 4:45pm Australia v Wales Twickenham Stadium, London

Table

England P1; W1; L0; D0; PF35; PA11; Points 5
Australia P0; W0; L0; D0; PF0; PA0; Points 0
Uruguay P0; W0; L0; D0; PF0; PA0; Points 0
Wales P0; W0; L0; D0; PF0; PA0; Points 0
Fiji P1; W0; L1; D0; PF11; PA35; Points 0

Team for next Match

TBC

by yappysnap Thu 17 Sep - 7:40

Is this the match thread for this weekend? It just a bickering thread over 3rd choice selections?

by **LondonTiger** Thu 17 Sep - 7:57

yappysnap wrote:Is this the match thread for this weekend? It just a bickering thread over 3rd choice selections?

Well at least it is no longer a dedicated Voldemort thread.

anyway are we not bickering about Parling now Very Happy

by No 7&1/2 Thu 17 Sep - 8:02

We do need a new victim? We've done nearly everyone in our 4 year cycle. How about Marler, Cole or Brown next?

by **George Carlin** Thu 17 Sep - 8:08

yappysnap wrote:Is this the match thread for this weekend? It just a bickering thread over 3rd choice selections?

Jaysus, why do I bother?
https://www.606v2.com/t60530-england-v-fiji-18-september
The England World Cup Thread - Page 5 Italia11

by Gooseberry Thu 17 Sep - 8:23

No 7&1/2 wrote:We do need a new victim? We've done nearly everyone in our 4 year cycle. How about Marler, Cole or Brown next?

Well if its not Tom Youngs to blame for the scrum it must be Cole. I mean sure hes good at going for the ball but if we had a proper 7 we could select a prop on scrummaging....

etc

by robbo277 Thu 17 Sep - 8:28

I think if you pigeon hole locks into either enforcers or technicians, Launchbury is more an enforcer, your big scrummaging lock, a lot of power and a good front man in the lineout. Parling is more your technician, not as powerful but a better rugby brain. Can jump anywhere and run a line out, also slightly more canny at the breakdown in slowing down opposition ball.

However, like you don't really get traditional 6 and 7 as much anymore, you don't get this traditional big bloke/tall bloke combo, you need multifaceted players. And it's true to say that Launchbury can be handy at the breakdown and Parling does have a power game, they're just not their strongest respective suits.

For me, Lawes and Kruis are both halfway in between the two. Lawes probably started out trying to be that enforcer, but his time at 6 meant he had to develop his breakdown skills and he's now got more experience running a lineout. Club combos seem to be important here, and you'd say with Hartley throwing in Lawes has run a successful England lineout in the past. So in the future we could see Lawes lead the line with Launchbury beside him. But the set piece wobbled big time without Parling in there.

I'd have gone for Launchbury and Lawes for this one, and if the set piece didn't function you could use it as a shoot out for the next test to start with Parling.

by Geordie Thu 17 Sep - 9:00

Robbo you mentioned the future of locks without mentioning......Itoje....

by beshocked Thu 17 Sep - 9:36

Poorfour it's not about just giving the likes of Slade and George gametime for the sake of it.

They were two of the form players in the AP last season and had good warm ups. They deserve opportunities in meaningful matches. I genuinely think both will improve England whether that's George perhaps solving the hooker dilemma or Slade being a versatile bench option which would solve Lancaster's bench issues.

Well-past it why can't you get it into your head that I am not advocating George because he's a Saracens player. It's because I believe he is a better hooker than Webber and deserves to be picked. I want the best players for England regardless of club.

You don't hear me saying Goode is first choice 15,Farrell is first 10, it's because I know that Brown and Ford are deservedly starters. I am highlighting just one area which I feel is unjustified.

Your argument is weak hence the only way you can criticise me is accuse me of bias.

Yes Webber has more experience than George. It doesn't help that Lancaster won't pick George. 4 starts in 3 years is pretty poor no matter how you try and package it up. Also none of them in big matches.

If you compared Youngs or Hartley to George in terms of experience then the difference would be significant. Webber and George - not so much. 4 starts,9 replacements in 3 years, as I said before is not much.

At least George has been first choice this season for his club whereas Webber couldn't get past Batty. George took his opportunity and has been in great form. You say only one season - still about 28 club games - starting in the big games (something that Webber hasn't done for Bath this season or for England ever).

Webber is not a big game player, not good enough to start. The argument is that he never lets people down, well I would argue he's not really been tested, surely if there is a player better then you want to pick them?

I can't speak for others but if you read some other posts you'll see that there has been support for George.

In terms of international minutes Webber really doesn't have that many. Sure it's more than George but it's a small amount. Not enough IMO to make that much of a difference.

It's not half a season - it's a full season, starting in basically every game. Something you can't accuse Webber of doing.

What has form of two years ago got to do with now? Frankly I don't care that Webber was seen as highly rated two years ago. It's irrelevant. Corbisiero was the best LH in England after the Lions tour in 2013 - look where he is now, not even in the squad and deservedly out.

The reason why I have gone with club form is it's important, especially when players have no experience or little experience at international level.

If you went the flawed argument of picking England players based on only international experience you wouldn't have any new players. There would be no fresh faces, no potential improvement.

It's about looking to improve the squad and continue to grow. There are good times to pick a new player and not so good times.

Fiji at home is an ideal time to pick new players who you believe will improve the squad.

Less risky than France away, more useful than a game vs Uruguay. It would build the belief that the 31 matter not just the 23.

If you had a strong case and argument for Webber then I would acknowledge it. You don't.

He's not as experienced as you believe, he had a poor club season, your only argument in your favour is that he was solid in an inconsequential warm up game against France. 1 inconsequential game is not sufficient proof of a players' ability IMO.

Compare that to 28 club starts and 2 bench appearances for England from George when most of the feedback of his performances has been good. He also starred in the AP final - wasn't just solid or a bystander.

Even Lancaster said that George's England debut was excellent.

George IMO couldn't have done much more to be picked.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 17 Sep - 9:42

How would you know if he starred in the AP final, you didn't watch it.

by BamBam Thu 17 Sep - 9:43

I thought you'd promised to move on from George and Webber!!!!

by **LondonTiger** Thu 17 Sep - 9:46

GeordieFalcon wrote:Robbo you mentioned the future of locks without mentioning......Itoje....

Who?

by beshocked Thu 17 Sep - 9:56

no 7 & 1/2 a try and an assist are generally quite important......

Bambam apologies. Well Past it responded to me. I had to reply.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 17 Sep - 9:58

If you'd said that I'd agree beshocked!

by beshocked Thu 17 Sep - 10:17

Well no 7 & 1/2 George's try and assist against Bath were pretty high profile I didn't think I needed to mention it specifically.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/may/31/jamie-george-saracens-england-premiership-final

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6W0NNe5fK3g

Even more amazing when you see that 1:04 that Bath had plenty of men over. A potential dangerous Bath attack completely neutralised.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 17 Sep - 10:18

No 7&1/2 wrote:We do need a new victim? We've done nearly everyone in our 4 year cycle. How about Marler, Cole or Brown next?

Let's bicker about Marler. I'm a tad worried about his dip in scrummaging form

by No 7&1/2 Thu 17 Sep - 10:19

Great beshocked. Fantastic. You got around to watching it yet or still judging players on highlights?

by lostinwales Thu 17 Sep - 10:20

ChequeredJersey wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:We do need a new victim? We've done nearly everyone in our 4 year cycle. How about Marler, Cole or Brown next?

Let's bicker about Marler. I'm a tad worried about his dip in scrummaging form

Is there a link with not having quite so stupid hair any more?

by BamBam Thu 17 Sep - 10:21

In fairness Bath neutralised that attack all by themselves, impressive pace to score though

by beshocked Thu 17 Sep - 10:37

Bambam perhaps but with George,Hargreaves and one other to beat surely they should have done better?

no 7 & 1/2 I know you're going to use it as a stick to beat me with - that's one game I happened to not see. No I don't just judge players on highlights but highlights are important too.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 17 Sep - 10:42

It's not a stick to beat you with, we can't watch all the games.

Out of interest who would have been your 3rd choice hooker? Batty? LCD?

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 17 Sep - 11:14

You should definitely pick Jamie George over Rob Webber. He's much prettier.

by Geordie Thu 17 Sep - 11:21

Has Marler ever been a good scrummager? Didn't he make his name as a carrying prop?

by BamBam Thu 17 Sep - 11:24

Chris Ashton reckons Rob Webber could have been a model if he wasn't a fat lad Shocked

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11863740/England-vs-Fiji-Chris-Ashtons-player-by-player-guide-to-Rugby-World-Cup-opener.html?frame=3439733

by BamBam Thu 17 Sep - 11:37

beshocked wrote:Bambam perhaps but with George,Hargreaves and one other to beat surely they should have done better?

no 7 & 1/2 I know you're going to use it as a stick to beat me with - that's one game I happened to not see. No I don't just judge players on highlights but highlights are important too.

Oh they definitely should have done better, but I struggle to see why George should get credit for anything other than his pace to the line!

by ChequeredJersey Thu 17 Sep - 11:38

GeordieFalcon wrote:Has Marler ever been a good scrummager? Didn't he make his name as a carrying prop?

Initially he struggled but he had been an excellent scrummager for a couple of seasons, to the detriment of his carrying game. His carrying game did seem to be back vs Ireland though

by WELL-PAST-IT Thu 17 Sep - 11:40

greenandpleasantland wrote:Weather in MK is a bit wet. It's a lovely place to live though.

GPL, you live in MK, we spent about 15 years there, kids still do live in MK

by beshocked Thu 17 Sep - 12:20

no 7 & 1/2 would probably pick Webber as 3rd choice as LCD still needs to work on aspects of this game but in the future I expect LCD will leapfrog him.

Bambam because of pressure, cutting the amount of time that the Bath players had to react. Preventing the ball from being shipped wide.

by GLove39 Thu 17 Sep - 12:21

Not long to go now chaps! Roll on tomorrow night
https://vine.co/v/eUrBHgDmM5t

by No 7&1/2 Thu 17 Sep - 12:21

LCD was pretty solid in the set piece last season though and is great in the loose.

by BamBam Thu 17 Sep - 12:24

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 would probably pick Webber as 3rd choice as LCD still needs to work on aspects of this game but in the future I expect LCD will leapfrog him.

Bambam because of pressure, cutting the amount of time that the Bath players had to react. Preventing the ball from being shipped wide.

Possibly, but I still think that was an error by Eastmond (I think thats him), if he had pulled the ball back behind the runner as Bath so often do, there would have been a 3 on 2 over lap on the outside.

Alternatively if the ball had gone to hand, they would have been over the gainline with whoever that is who doesn't catch the ball

I'd say thats more of a Bath unforced error if we use tennis terminology

by ChequeredJersey Fri 18 Sep - 21:41

Happy to admit I was wrong. Largely due to the indolence and sloppiness of our first half performance, those subs were te right ones and might save our arses

by **George Carlin** Sun 20 Sep - 6:55

https://www.606v2.com/t60615-england-v-wales-26-september

by damage_13 Sun 20 Sep - 9:42

Care has got to to be on the bench vs Wales, Youngs is just too slow Wigglsworth was better but Care will open the game up. Though Faz did ok but very weary of him starting. Slade should've been on the bench as 10 vs Fiji.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 20 Sep - 15:33

Well one game down. Interesting to see that the very same people who said Fiji might win, but woudl at the very least run us close, are also the ones telling us how bad we were.

That first game panned out pretty much as we would have expected, good start, then went quiet then came on strong as Fiji tired.

Doubt we will see much change for Wales - though surely if Wilson is fully fit Cole will be dropped.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 21 Sep - 8:07

A number of people have noted how well the Japanese and Georgian scrums have gone. Brian Moore says the technique shown by Japan proves that it is still possible to hook every ball, despite the fact that some players claim they can't always do so.

None of the front row who started for the Lions in the final test against Australia - Jones, Hibbard and Corbs - made it to the World Cup. I wonder whether Rowntree might have moved beyond his sell by date too. He produced effective scrums for England and the Lions under the old laws, and we didn't seem to have too many problems with the new ones. However, if we can't solve our current difficulties, then we might have to look for someone who can.

by englandglory4ever Mon 21 Sep - 8:16

Rugby fan. I absolutely agree. I've thought for a long time that rowntree is not up to it. We have definitely gone backwards in the scrum in more ways than one.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 21 Sep - 8:18

We have had a good scrum since. I'd give them the Wales game to show they have a bit of form. Cole said he wasn't particularly happy with Fiji targeting him with the opposite tight head coming forcing Marler to come in then have the 6 pushing him as well and then causing the issues. TBH the scrum was that much of a mess it could have been happening but I wouldn't have liked to call it and from the look of neither was Peyper who looked a little nervy. Tough decisions though.

by jamesandimac Mon 21 Sep - 8:52

England had a solid scrum platform last season under the new laws. Infact it the setpiece as a whole was our strongest facet of play during the autumn internationals and went very well during the 6Ns. The sad thing is since the summer we have dropped off both in the scrum and the lineout. Are we missing Hartley that much?

by **LondonTiger** Mon 21 Sep - 8:58

Cole looked lacklustre. Marler was struggling with Fiji TH driving in at an angle (imo illegally) and when he got the upperhand and Fijian dropped it ref let it go.

As the scrum went well for the 20 minutes that Mako/Youngs/Brookes were on the field it may not be the hooker to blame, especially as the 3rd "lost scrum" came with Webber on.

by Exiledinborders Mon 21 Sep - 9:00

jamesandimac wrote:England had a solid scrum platform last season under the new laws. Infact it the setpiece as a whole was our strongest facet of play during the autumn internationals and went very well during the 6Ns. The sad thing is since the summer we have dropped off both in the scrum and the lineout. Are we missing Hartley that much?

It is not that we miss Hartley so much as Youngs is a liability. I would play George. He would add solidity to scrum and lineout. He is not bad around the park either.

I hope the injured Welsh props recover but if not England may have a pretty easy time in the second half either playing third or fourth choice props or tired first choice props struggly to play eighty.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 21 Sep - 23:03

At a charity dinner at the end of last season I won one of the better raffle prizes. today I got to "redeem" that prize - a trip to see England in training.

It was a real eye-opener. The intensity and sheer dedication of the squad and support staff was exemplary and the attention to detail just incredible.

Cannot say too much - as a) tired and b) Some things are meant to be secret Very Happy

However most interesting for me was an hour long opposed scrummaging session. The make up of the session was illuminating and it was quite obvious to see who the better scrummaging units were - and who was able to get up from a scrum and react quickly and with accuracy to the tasks the coaches set them.

by Scottrf Mon 21 Sep - 23:10

Great stuff LT. The question on everyone's lips, can Youngs throw straight in training?

Na seriously, bet it was interesting.

by Poorfour Tue 22 Sep - 8:46

I hope you can confirm, LT, that at least your view of who was doing well in the opposed session aligns with the coaches' pecking order for picking the squad!

by englandglory4ever Tue 22 Sep - 9:05

Wow, an armchair aficianado has seen what the coaches are seeing. I wonder if that has influenced his own thinking on selection matters?

by englandglory4ever Tue 22 Sep - 9:12

No 7&1/2 wrote:We have had a good scrum since. I'd give them the Wales game to show they have a bit of form. Cole said he wasn't particularly happy with Fiji targeting him with the opposite tight head coming forcing Marler to come in then have the 6 pushing him as well and then causing the issues. TBH the scrum was that much of a mess it could have been happening but I wouldn't have liked to call it and from the look of neither was Peyper who looked a little nervy. Tough decisions though.

Once again Rowntree is found wanting. Almost every game opposition teams work out ways to nullify the England scrum. We get caught with our pants down almost every time. Surely its time for Rowntree to get his marching orders. He doesn't seem to have much of a brain.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 22 Sep - 9:13

I'm starting to agree Glory, apparently it's Rowntree who said Burgess isn't a 6. No idea what he's doing.

by englandglory4ever Tue 22 Sep - 9:17

Don't start 7.5 please.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 22 Sep - 9:23

I'm agreeing he doesn't have a brain?

by Barney McGrew did it Tue 22 Sep - 9:26

I'm hoping that the biggest shake up post RWC is the coaching team. Player selection, on the whole, has been ok-ish. Tactics and game-plan seem a bit muddled.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 22 Sep - 9:38

englandglory4ever wrote:Wow, an armchair aficianado has seen what the coaches are seeing. I wonder if that has influenced his own thinking on selection matters?

I do believe you would have been enlightened.

Oh and many thanks for the insult.

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