The England World Cup Thread

[LondonTiger]

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

ENGLAND 35 FIJI 11



ENGLAND v WALES at Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 26th September 2015 – Kick Off: 8:00pm
Referee: Jérôme Garcès (FFR)

ENGLAND v AUSTRALIA at Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 3rd October 2015 – Kick Off: 8:00pm
Referee: Romain Poite (FFR)

ENGLAND v URUGUAY at Manchester City Stadium, Manchester
Saturday 10th October 2015 – Kick Off: 8:00pm
Referee: Chris Pollock (NZR)



Other Pool A Fixtures

Sun 20th September 2:30pm Wales v Uruguay Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Wed 23rd September 4:45pm Australia v Fiji Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Sun 27th September 12:00pm Australia v Uruguay Villa Park, Birmingham
Thu 1st October 4:45pm Wales v Fiji Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Tue 6th October 8:00pm Fiji v Uruguay Stadium MK, Milton Keynes
Sat 10th October 4:45pm Australia v Wales Twickenham Stadium, London



Table

England P1; W1; L0; D0; PF35; PA11; Points 5
Australia P0; W0; L0; D0; PF0; PA0; Points 0
Uruguay P0; W0; L0; D0; PF0; PA0; Points 0
Wales P0; W0; L0; D0; PF0; PA0; Points 0
Fiji P1; W0; L1; D0; PF11; PA35; Points 0


Team for next Match

TBC

[No 7&1/2]

In all seriousness though it is important not to stand still when you have a coaching job over a good length of time. Assuming Lancasterstays as head coach it wouldn't be a thing to refresh the coaching team assuming the right people are available. Alex ferguson hung around forever at Man U but was able to keep freshness with a succession of new assistant managers.

[LondonTiger]

Surely its time for Rowntree to get his marching orders. He doesn't seem to have much of a brain.

Ooh look at you, the brave keyboard warrior.

[Gooseberry]

b] Alex ferguson hung around forever at Man U but was able to keep freshness with a succession of new number 2s[/b].

Youre right he had quite a few little sh1ts come through the squad.

Or did you mean hookers?

[SecretFly]

b] Alex ferguson hung around forever at Man U but was able to keep freshness with a succession of new number 2s[/b].

Youre right he had quite a few little sh1ts come through the squad.

Or did you mean hookers?

[No 7&1/2]

Oh dear.

[BamBam]

childish but I was amused, small things and small minds and all that

[beshocked]

no 7 & 1/2 and barney mcgrew did it I agree.

Wouldn't mind seeing Rowntree,Farrell Sr and Catt being replaced.

My replacements would be Baxter,Gustard and King. Very unlikely to happen of course.

If Gustard did become an England coach, I would want Borthwick back at Saracens coaching. The professor of the lineout needs to be back in England!

Londontiger sounds interesting. Though of course a training session is mechanical and self contained.

Rugby is also about instinct, being pro active and making the right decisions. A training session cannot create the ever changing situation of a real match.

A throw or set piece might well go well in training but executing that in a match is a very different matter.

I know I am stating the obvious but there are posters who believe that training is more important than matches.

IMO more can be learnt in real matches rather than training.

[No 7&1/2]

Is that aimed at me again beshocked? 'I know I am stating the obvious but there are posters who believe that training is more important than matches.'

Because that really is twisting it.

[BamBam]

Another poster seems to think that a player who probably isn't even throwing better than Tom Youngs in training is suddenly going to acquire the accuracy of Phil Taylor the moment he belts out God save the Queen

[beshocked]

Yes no 7 & 1/2 it is aimed at you. Just because a player does well in training doesn't mean they will in a match situation.

Bambam it's not that far fetched as some players do step up for the occasion. If you don't try out the players you don't know.

T.Youngs might hit his jumper 10/10 in training but doesn't mean he will in a match.

[No 7&1/2]

Ah fair enough. I'll say it again beshocked stop trying to put words in my mouth and twisting meanings. You do it far to often in an attempt to paint others in a corner. I offered an option that George may not be performing as well in training, he wasn't exceptional in the warm up or perfect in the lineout. I don't think that's beyong the realms of possibility.

If I say that it doesn't mean trainings the be all and end all, even then there's more going on than 1 individual players and performance. If I say Twelvetrees is the best overall option at 12 it doesn't mean he's Greenwood mark 2 and flawless. If I defend May and say he's played pretty well or that Ford played well in the Aviva final it's doesn't make them gods.

Read what I and others say and take that as what we mean (unless an obvious p take!) rather than try to interpret our words into something they are obviously not.

[Jimpy]

Yes no 7 & 1/2 it is aimed at you. Just because a player does well in training doesn't mean they will in a match situation.

Bambam it's not that far fetched as some players do step up for the occasion. If you don't try out the players you don't know.

T.Youngs might hit his jumper 10/10 in training but doesn't mean he will in a match.

Is that the same as that if a player is going well for their club, it doesn't necessarily mean that form will translate into international form?

[Scottrf]

Is that the same as that if a player is going well for their club, it doesn't necessarily mean that form will translate into international form?

At least that's competitive play. Nobody gets selected for the Olympic 100m based on their times in training.

Truth is we don't know why he picks one player over another unless he says.

[Jimpy]

Is that the same as that if a player is going well for their club, it doesn't necessarily mean that form will translate into international form?

At least that's competitive play. Nobody gets selected for the Olympic 100m based on their times in training.

Truth is we don't know why he picks one player over another unless he says.

Only, certain posters seem to think that because somebody is playing well for their club, they should be selected automatically for their country...

[LondonTiger]

Is that the same as that if a player is going well for their club, it doesn't necessarily mean that form will translate into international form?

At least that's competitive play. Nobody gets selected for the Olympic 100m based on their times in training.

Truth is we don't know why he picks one player over another unless he says.

Well if one trio is absolutely dicking another in training scrums - it may be a decisive factor?

[Poorfour]

We have had a good scrum since. I'd give them the Wales game to show they have a bit of form. Cole said he wasn't particularly happy with Fiji targeting him with the opposite tight head coming forcing Marler to come in then have the 6 pushing him as well and then causing the issues. TBH the scrum was that much of a mess it could have been happening but I wouldn't have liked to call it and from the look of neither was Peyper who looked a little nervy. Tough decisions though.

Once again Rowntree is found wanting. Almost every game opposition teams work out ways to nullify the England scrum. We get caught with our pants down almost every time. Surely its time for Rowntree to get his marching orders. He doesn't seem to have much of a brain.

Rowntree was the only coach to emerge with any credit from 2011 and was widely regarded as one of the leading forwards coaches worldwide. Until this summer the England scrum has outperformed expectations in most cases - they weren't marmalised on tour in South Africa in 2012, as was widely predicted, and have still been a strong scrum despite losing Corbs, Mako, Cole and Wilson for long periods. The only really bad performance was the Walsh-assisted defeat in Cardiff where Adam Jones was given free rein to milk the scrum for penalties.

Right now, I am concerned. Rowntree has clearly tried to reshape the fitness profile of his pack, and that combined with Marler's return from injury, Youngs replacing Hartley and Cole being a bit out of sorts has clearly been a bit much to adapt. But for what it's worth I felt, watching in the stadium, that the only really dire scrums were the one Youngs didn't hook and the one they lost on the 5m line. In the latter you could see that Marler got his body shape wrong before the scrum had even set - he was all hunched up - and I was amazed he didn't just stand up and reset it.

But I didn't particularly buy the "Marler's boring in" analysis when I heard it after the game, because it looked to me like Fiji tried to wheel the scrum every time and their tighthead was collapsing in far more than Marler's body position would suggest - either that, or Marler had a huge strength advantage.

I don't think we can really judge until Saturday where England are in terms of readiness to scrummage. I suspect that the training has been geared towards getting them ready for this game and that they may still have been a little undercooked against Fiji. I suspect it might still be a case of hanging on for 60 minutes and then gaining an edge over Wales's replacements.

The weather forecast for Saturday is dry and fairly warm for autumn, which might mean we don't see too many scrums anyway.

[beshocked]

Jimpy fair point but if you don't give players opportunities then you don't know if they can translate that form to international do you?

Also I would favour good club form over a season rather than how a player does in training because how they do in training might not be a true reflection of their ability.

Players need gametime and opportunities.

no 7 & 1/2 the problem is that you're not willing to give George a chance just like Lancaster. He wasn't exceptional but he was good.

It's not just George either - other players aren't given enough opportunities by him.

As for the other players I don't have an issue with you supporting 36,May and Ford. I just have the impression that you believe that they can do no wrong.

Not sure I have ever heard you acknowledge their mistakes. For my part personally I think all 3 players have good parts of their game - May is road runner, Ford is a very good attacking 10 when on the front foot, 36 has had moments of good play because on his day he can sing and dance.

I just want to see more from all 3. I want to see May scorching through for some tries and tightening up his defence. Want to see Ford bossing and controlling the game more, as for 36 want to see him working his game and getting some consistency to his game.

[lostinwales]

We have had a good scrum since. I'd give them the Wales game to show they have a bit of form. Cole said he wasn't particularly happy with Fiji targeting him with the opposite tight head coming forcing Marler to come in then have the 6 pushing him as well and then causing the issues. TBH the scrum was that much of a mess it could have been happening but I wouldn't have liked to call it and from the look of neither was Peyper who looked a little nervy. Tough decisions though.

Once again Rowntree is found wanting. Almost every game opposition teams work out ways to nullify the England scrum. We get caught with our pants down almost every time. Surely its time for Rowntree to get his marching orders. He doesn't seem to have much of a brain.

Rowntree was the only coach to emerge with any credit from 2011 and was widely regarded as one of the leading forwards coaches worldwide. Until this summer the England scrum has outperformed expectations in most cases - they weren't marmalised on tour in South Africa in 2012, as was widely predicted, and have still been a strong scrum despite losing Corbs, Mako, Cole and Wilson for long periods. The only really bad performance was the Walsh-assisted defeat in Cardiff where Adam Jones was given free rein to milk the scrum for penalties.

Right now, I am concerned. Rowntree has clearly tried to reshape the fitness profile of his pack, and that combined with Marler's return from injury, Youngs replacing Hartley and Cole being a bit out of sorts has clearly been a bit much to adapt. But for what it's worth I felt, watching in the stadium, that the only really dire scrums were the one Youngs didn't hook and the one they lost on the 5m line. In the latter you could see that Marler got his body shape wrong before the scrum had even set - he was all hunched up - and I was amazed he didn't just stand up and reset it.

But I didn't particularly buy the "Marler's boring in" analysis when I heard it after the game, because it looked to me like Fiji tried to wheel the scrum every time and their tighthead was collapsing in far more than Marler's body position would suggest - either that, or Marler had a huge strength advantage.

I don't think we can really judge until Saturday where England are in terms of readiness to scrummage. I suspect that the training has been geared towards getting them ready for this game and that they may still have been a little undercooked against Fiji. I suspect it might still be a case of hanging on for 60 minutes and then gaining an edge over Wales's replacements.

The weather forecast for Saturday is dry and fairly warm for autumn, which might mean we don't see too many scrums anyway.

Really glad to read this. After watching the game on TV and reading the endless doom and gloom it was very refreshing to actually look at the stats for the game. England were way ahead in all areas that mattered. We could have done with scoring the 4th try maybe a fraction earlier but we did so, and in a way which suggested that the match played out closer to the script we had written before hand than we'd ever admit.

We are in for a hell of an examination of where we are at over the next two weekends, but I am feeling just a little bit optimistic.

[LondonTiger]

I hope you can confirm, LT, that at least your view of who was doing well in the opposed session aligns with the coaches' pecking order for picking the squad!

I was extremely impressed with Joe Marler.

[No 7&1/2]

Why do you feel I'm not willing to give George a chance though beshocked? When have I ever said that? Pretty sure I said a couple of times he's good enough to challenge for a starting spot but that it's more likely to come later in the tournament or going into the 6Ns.

And it comes back to you not really reading opinions fully.

[beshocked]

no 7 & 1/2 you've been defending Lancaster's decisions not to pick him. Even Webber who you supported wasn't given a chance by Lancaster. It's not right.

It's not even about George. If England are going to shore up certain areas they need to try out other players.

[No 7&1/2]

I've put forward reasons yes. I've said that Webber could ahve been chosen as he was around the squad and probably played a bit better in the warm ups. I've said previously that although I think Webber has been good for England in the past he hasn't had more chances as he's probably not as good as Hartley and Youngs generally and that that's the case for a lot of positions, lots of strength in depth but that the coaches have tried to take the option of building as much experience where (when) possible.

Like I said we could try new players every other game, someone will then have a poorish performance and we can try someone else. Not sure that's the best way, there does have to be balance in getting new and possibly better players in the side but at the same time we aren't an experienced side comparitively, you may take an initial hit in form for long term gain.

I think those are valid reasons to not have him in the starting lineup or on the bench. I've said he needs to make his case so Lancaster can't ignore him. He's had a good year for his club but still his first real breakthrough year which has come about by injury to Brits. He now needs to be outperforming players ahead of him; when he gets the chance off the bench or to start he needs to play well.

Fair?

[SecretFly]

Trying out in a WC pool that involves Gatland's brooding Welshmen and Cheika's bloodthirsty Aussies may not be the ideal timing, shocked.

[beshocked]

I agree with you that there has to be balance. That's a balance I feel that Lancaster is getting wrong.

I am not suggest trying out new players every other game. I am suggesting tweaking and trying out areas that are deemed not particularly strong.

Hooker is one of them.

The problem is that inexperienced players cannot make their case if not picked.

So what if it's a player's first breakthrough year - these guys like Slade,Itoje,George,Ewers and Ksevic are not unknown players. They've been on the radar for some time.

It's a negative mindset to say - oh let's not pick this player because either he's not playing well in training or because he's inexperienced. Unless he's given an opportunity we won't know if he's better than our current hooker options.

It's a risk sure but no more than a hooker who seems to be struggling at the set piece.

Secretfly I suggested doing it vs Fiji not Wales or Australia.

[No 7&1/2]

Well there's a few others as well of course. You throw in Clark as the next in line for that back row as well. We looked fine for hooking options until Hartley was banned. Slades made it but just. Itoje is going to be exceptional but he's not better than current options at the moment and there's still a question of 2nd row or 6.

Who else could have a shout out for new(ish) players, Clifford, Slater, Kitchener, Hill, Robson, Mullan, Cipriani (back in). England have a lot of depth, no one not there is vastly better than those that did make in my opinion.

I still think we should have a look what the set piece does against Wales before panic sets in.

[lostinwales]

Its worth while thinking about the Wales set piece also. They do have a lot of beef around the squad but are struggling in the front row. If the do go with Warburton/Tipuric at 6 and 7 then that is going to put more emphasis than ever on the performance of their props

Gethin was never a great scrummager (just a cute 'collapser' at times). On the other side you have either Francis, who has a good reputation in the scrum but no experience at this level and is the kind of size that is going to catch up with him during the match, or Lee who may well turn into a very good prop but isn't there yet and is again coming back after a serious injury (and you have to ask how long he'll last also)

[jamesandimac]

Well then......what the hell do we do now?!

It seems Lancaster has 2 choices, he either backs his team 100% from the weekend and keeps the same starting line up, showing loyalty and commitment to the players he's picked (good Lancaster stuff) or he tears up the rule book and makes whole sale changes, potentially driving a wedge in between those dropped and those picked and damaging his culture.....

I suppose the biggest question is still the balance of the midfield and how we get the "right" ball to our back 3.

Also any injury news out there? I haven't seen or heard a thing.

[No 7&1/2]

2 changes. Barritt, Parling out and Slade, Launchbury in. Injuries permitting.

[jamesandimac]

From the Guardian:

"Billy Vunipola, Courtney Lawes and Jonathan Joseph all look certain to miss the Australia game; the three of them, in their differing ways, are key ball-carriers within England’s attacking structure. Joe Launchbury, Ben Morgan (if fit) and Henry Slade must all be close to starting."

Damn, damn and damn again! Vunipola is a huge lose, quite literally!

If Morgan doesn't make it who's going to cover the bench for backrow???

[George Carlin]

https://www.606v2.com/t60723-england-vs-australia-3-october

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