The England World Cup Thread

by **LondonTiger** Sun Sep 13, 2015 10:06 pm

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures

ENGLAND 35 FIJI 11

ENGLAND v WALES at Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 26th September 2015 – Kick Off: 8:00pm
Referee: Jérôme Garcès (FFR)

ENGLAND v AUSTRALIA at Twickenham Stadium, London
Saturday 3rd October 2015 – Kick Off: 8:00pm
Referee: Romain Poite (FFR)

ENGLAND v URUGUAY at Manchester City Stadium, Manchester
Saturday 10th October 2015 – Kick Off: 8:00pm
Referee: Chris Pollock (NZR)

Other Pool A Fixtures

Sun 20th September 2:30pm Wales v Uruguay Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Wed 23rd September 4:45pm Australia v Fiji Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Sun 27th September 12:00pm Australia v Uruguay Villa Park, Birmingham
Thu 1st October 4:45pm Wales v Fiji Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
Tue 6th October 8:00pm Fiji v Uruguay Stadium MK, Milton Keynes
Sat 10th October 4:45pm Australia v Wales Twickenham Stadium, London

Table

England P1; W1; L0; D0; PF35; PA11; Points 5
Australia P0; W0; L0; D0; PF0; PA0; Points 0
Uruguay P0; W0; L0; D0; PF0; PA0; Points 0
Wales P0; W0; L0; D0; PF0; PA0; Points 0
Fiji P1; W0; L1; D0; PF11; PA35; Points 0

Team for next Match

TBC

by beshocked Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:45 pm

Big hookers? - well England's first choice is arguably the smallest in England.

Hartley,George,LCD and Webber all a lot bigger than Youngs but Youngs is Lancaster's first choice.

To be fair Youngs is the most experienced hooker but of course question marks still remain on his set piece prowess at international level.

by Scottrf Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:45 pm

beshocked wrote:Chequeredjersey I agree.

To be honest I am more worried about Ford being run over by Fijians than Slade.

Is no one else worried that T.Youngs and Geoff Parling could make our front five a bit underpowered?

Nathan

I will admit that May did well in the warm ups. Hopefully he will play well in the most important ones.

Happily to admit I am wrong if England demolish Fiji with no key injuries, with T.Youngs and Geoff Parling beasting the opposition with great lineout combo and powerful scrummagings as part of the front five.

Hopefully that happens.

You're worried about the scrummaging against amateur props?

by hugehandoff Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:48 pm

Front 5 will be fine against Fiji, but that might give false confidence to the coaches who will then select them again for Wales.

As for our bench Webber has never let England down. I personally prefer Care but admit that Wigglesworth is playing well do not mind seeing him play. The only contentious one is Burgess and whilst I am excited to sede him play I will also be nervous in case of any injury to our back 3. It will mean a whole lot of re-jigging and different potential options. Watson to 15 and JJ to wing whilst Burgess comes in is the most likely answer. Slade provides a much better balance overall.

by ChequeredJersey Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:48 pm

nathan wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
nathan wrote:So what will it take for some on here to eat their own hat and admit they were wrong?

If the charges we inevitably make at55-60 minute no matter what coincide with either turning a loss into a win or stacking up points in the last 20, I will be on here and take it back

Hope so becuase there were a few being pretty negative before the ireland game and yet were proved wrong with what they said - of course they didn't come back on here and hold there hands up and say they were wrong

Yeah but that wasn't me, was it?

by beshocked Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:48 pm

scottrf Yes I am. Parling and T.Youngs are not known as powerhouses in the engine room at international level. Getting superiority should be simple but you never know....

Oh and nathan if you're referring to me I predicted that England would beat Ireland - put it on the England vs Ireland thread.

by englandglory4ever Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:52 pm

"Big hookers? - well England's first choice is arguably the smallest in England."

He is arguably the smallest hooker in the RWC. Him and Lee Mears should get jobs at the dwarf throwing pubs in NZ.

by munkian Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:12 pm

Ford to start ? England trying to 'out Fiji' Fiji ? Worked well for us in 2007... good luck with that Shocked

by BamBam Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:13 pm

Ford is the starting fly half though ....

by ChequeredJersey Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:25 pm

munkian wrote:Ford to start ? England trying to 'out Fiji' Fiji ? Worked well for us in 2007... good luck with that

Ford will start every "big" game at the moment. I imagine we will start the way we did against Ireland etc- structured but positive

by kingelderfield Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:21 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Who would be the next fly half or you reckon he'd move Slade over and call extra midfield?

I know i'm being fanatical but even if he did call him up, I can't see him making a 23.

I just don't believe he was ever really trusted.

So yes i'd imagine he'd bench slade or goode instead.

by kingelderfield Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:34 pm

What i want to see is a structured, inteligent, accurately executed game plan.

I want to see successfully completed lineouts with the variation of dynamic mauls beasting the Fijian pack into the dirt, plus the appropriately timed distribution to the backline to enable maximum opportunity and effect.

Everyone is still playing for their shirt so lets hoped they play as a team and deliver a confidence giving account.

The players have to own this.

by munkian Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:40 pm

Or they young inexperienced players will be suckered into a fast flowing open game.

by yappysnap Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:22 pm

Just as an aside. When Lancaster came in he made this statement about the RWC '15

If we look at previous winners of the World Cup, Australia in 1999 had a total of caps 622 in their starting XV, England had 638 in 2003, South Africa had 668 [in 2007] and New Zealand had 709 last year.
Our rough projection for 2015 with the team that we have got, give or take some players who will drop out and come into it, will have a total of 663 caps, which hopefully will put us in a good place

So we're Frak right?

by **LondonTiger** Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:01 pm

yappysnap wrote:Just as an aside. When Lancaster came in he made this statement about the RWC '15

If we look at previous winners of the World Cup, Australia in 1999 had a total of caps 622 in their starting XV, England had 638 in 2003, South Africa had 668 [in 2007] and New Zealand had 709 last year.
Our rough projection for 2015 with the team that we have got, give or take some players who will drop out and come into it, will have a total of 663 caps, which hopefully will put us in a good place

So we're Frak right?

England team that started the 30-9 win against Ireland in last game of the 2012 6Ns:

Foden; Ashton, Tuilagi, Barritt, Strettle; Farrell, Dickson (replaced by Youngs for second half); Corbisiero, Hartley, Cole, Botha, Parling, Croft, Robshaw, Morgan.

Other than Botha (wasn't Lawes injured then?) he would probably have hoped that the bulk of that team would stay together. As it is only 5 (6 if we include Youngs) will start vs Fiji. In the 3.5 years since then, that team was largely decimated - firstly by injury but also by individuals discipline.

by Geordie Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:36 pm

I have wondered about Tom Youngs size aswell, but I still like him. He's small in height but he's very stocky. He offers alot and he's not specifically a weakness in the scrum.

I want to see us playing like we did for the first 20 against Ireland..... For 50 mins. Really pummel Fiji with a strong relentless pick and carry game. Get the mauls going etc...earn the right to go wide, and when we do go wide make it ruthless and efficient. No wide passes forth sake of it.

After the 50 Fiji should be tired then maybe open it up a bit.

Send a message out that we're ready and if you want to beat us, you'll need to play well and it will be physical.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:22 pm

kingelderfield wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Who would be the next fly half or you reckon he'd move Slade over and call extra midfield?

I know I'm being fanatical but even if he did call him up, I can't see him making a 23.

Lancaster has no record of making gesture selections. If he didn't trust Cipriani, he wouldn't have kept him with the squad.

by Hood83 Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:25 pm

I think T Youngs has many qualities, and Fiji's lineout is unlikely to be great, but I'm worried about his as out first choice. I think the folly of dropping Hartley is going to be found out.

I remain completely unconvinced by Barritt and would have happily had a lightweight but creative 12-13 of Eastmond and Joseph.

Is Haskell dropped altogether? Ridiculous. Sorry, but I don't rate Tom Wood. Good work rate, good in the lineout. Everything else he is bang average at. Haskell is a moron, and he's never been as good as he might have been. He's still better than Wood, who will get absolutely mugged by any team with a large pack.

B Youngs will always be a poor man's Danny Care.

I guess it is Fiji.

by Gwlad Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:35 am

All Fiji need to do is keep their set piece tight, maintain possession and gain parity up front, rush up at 12 and the game is won. England's nascent midfield will crumble like my gran's rhubarb crisp.

by Wi11 Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:31 am

nathan wrote:
beshocked wrote:Chequeredjersey I agree.

To be honest I am more worried about Ford being run over by Fijians than Slade.

Is no one else worried that T.Youngs and Geoff Parling could make our front five a bit underpowered?

When ever was the leicester front 5 ever underpowered with these two in the side?

Surely Ayerza and Slater >> Marler and Lawes, in scrummaging terms...

Australia and Fiji are both stronger than usual in the scrum, I think we should prepare for an unfamiliar lack of dominance up front in this campaign. Of course we have an unfamiliar cutting edge out wide to balance this!

by Gwlad Tue Sep 15, 2015 5:41 am

and they know this and will pressure 12/13 and you'll kick game over i thank you

by kingelderfield Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:02 am

This starting 8 is lightweight, maybe not against Fiji but certainly against more physical sides, they will be severly challenged.

Apart from morgan and maybe youngs none of this 8 are really bulk ball carriers. We do have fatties on the bench who will offer a difference but should they not be starting? Impact is all very well but the game may well have gone by then.

by englandglory4ever Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:17 am

Gwlad wrote:All Fiji need to do is keep their set piece tight, maintain possession and gain parity up front, rush up at 12 and the game is won. England's nascent midfield will crumble like my gran's rhubarb crisp.

Glad I'm not drinking.

by beshocked Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:30 am

englandglory4ever interesting you mentioned Lee Mears - generally there were was the belief that with him in the scrum also, England were a bit underpowered.

Geordiefalcon you say that T.Youngs offers a lot. He's not really impressed consistently for England in the set piece though has he?

He's not a flanker - carrying and big workrate aren't his primary roles - throwing and scrummaging are.

Hartley has consistently been picked over T.Youngs because he's consistently been better in the lineout and scrummaging at international level.

Hood83 you would want a lightweight centre partnership? The Fijians would have a field day....

by dummy_half Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:50 am

No issues with the XV picked for this match - would probably prefer Launchbury to Parling for the big matches, but think GP gets insufficient recognition for his open field play. Wood is a better all round player than Haskell, and seems to be returning to his best form - at club level he is a very effective ball carrier, and it would be good if he could bring this to the international game.

Forward replacements are OK - you can argue about George over Webber, but that's not an overwhelmingly one-sided decision.

Would have preferred Care to Wiggy to play dynamically against a tiring opponent. Farrell was always going to be on the bench, as the only other experienced specialist 10 in the squad.

Burgess on the bench though worries me - no problem with him coming on at 12, but any other position I'd be concerned by the lack of pace in midfield with a Barritt and Burgess combination. Worst case would be if we lost Brown - would have to move Watson to 15, JJ to the wing and Burgess coming into the centre.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:52 am

Eastmond in his last 2 England appearances was a bit of a nightmare to be honest. He'll be around the fringes but I wouldn't want to depend upon him in the WC.

by beshocked Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:11 am

dummy half George vs Webber is an overwhelming one sided decision if form counts for anything. George was one of the best hookers in club rugby this season - played well in the warm ups. He's the hooker England should be picking on the bench at the minimum.

Webber couldn't get past Batty for Bath - lucky to be in the RWC squad, even more lucky to be in the 23.

It's a poor decision by Lancaster.

Disagree. Wood is not an effective ball carrier but has strengths that Haskell lacks.

by lostinwales Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:19 am

On the face of it it is surprising that Webber is in there but then we haven't been working with these guys at close range for the last two months+.

It is not about one off games either. We'll only really be able to tell in hindsight if the decisions made were right or wrong.

As for the game it will be the same old, assuming England keep their heads in the occasion. England will keep hold of the ball. Fiji will be dangerous when in possession but won't get much, and England can also be dangerous. And yes the pack hasn't lived up to previous standards in the warm ups but they were just warm ups, and two of those games were against a good French pack.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:20 am

I was initially critical of the Webber decision but he was probably the most solid of all the hookers in the warm ups for the set pieces to be fair.

by **George Carlin** Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:23 am

https://www.606v2.com/t60530-england-v-fiji-18-september
The England World Cup Thread - Page 2 2gwb9210

by lostinwales Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:24 am

http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/13661595/dan-cole-jamie-george-joe-marler-put-test

Q. 'Best ever World Cup performance?'

Marler. 'Any team that beat Wales. Maybe Samoa in 1991. I was one, I remember it well though.'

by Poorfour Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:41 am

lostinwales wrote:http://www.espn.co.uk/rugby/story/_/id/13661595/dan-cole-jamie-george-joe-marler-put-test

Q. 'Best ever World Cup performance?'

Marler. 'Any team that beat Wales. Maybe Samoa in 1991. I was one, I remember it well though.'

Say what you like about Joe's scrummaging technique, but his WUMming technique puts all of us on here to shame. Plus he's actually funny.

Joe Marler on ESPN wrote:Dark horse?

JM: Uruguay.

by Geordie Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:15 pm

beshocked wrote:englandglory4ever interesting you mentioned Lee Mears - generally there were was the belief that with him in the scrum also, England were a bit underpowered.

Geordiefalcon you say that T.Youngs offers a lot. He's not really impressed consistently for England in the set piece though has he?

He's not a flanker - carrying and big workrate aren't his primary roles - throwing and scrummaging are.

Hartley has consistently been picked over T.Youngs because he's consistently been better in the lineout and scrummaging at international level.

Hood83 you would want a lightweight centre partnership? The Fijians would have a field day....

Beshocked

Has he struggled in the scrum though? Line-out hasn't been great but ive not seen the scrum struggle because he is in there.

Aside from that, I think his role very much IS as a flanker. Indeed I would go so far to say Lancaster expects all his pack to play like a flanker. Hence why it's become more lightweight than many previous England packs.

by ChequeredJersey Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I was initially critical of the Webber decision but he was probably the most solid of all the hookers in the warm ups for the set pieces to be fair.

Except, you know, George?

by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:40 pm

Lost his first lineout against France and didn't look as solid to me CJ, so even though I'd agree that Webber has had a really poor season and criticised him being there I do think he probably did enough.

by beshocked Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:45 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
beshocked wrote:englandglory4ever interesting you mentioned Lee Mears - generally there were was the belief that with him in the scrum also, England were a bit underpowered.

Geordiefalcon you say that T.Youngs offers a lot. He's not really impressed consistently for England in the set piece though has he?

He's not a flanker - carrying and big workrate aren't his primary roles - throwing and scrummaging are.

Hartley has consistently been picked over T.Youngs because he's consistently been better in the lineout and scrummaging at international level.

Hood83 you would want a lightweight centre partnership? The Fijians would have a field day....

Beshocked

Has he struggled in the scrum though? Line-out hasn't been great but ive not seen the scrum struggle because he is in there.

Aside from that, I think his role very much IS as a flanker. Indeed I would go so far to say Lancaster expects all his pack to play like a flanker. Hence why it's become more lightweight than many previous England packs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21778425

Both T.Youngs and Parling started vs Wales in 2013 and the scrum wasn't good. Of course it's just one game but was a big one.

T.Youngs is not picked for being solid at the set piece.

Personally I think T.Youngs is an excellent impact player to bring off the bench but do you really trust his set piece at international level?

by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:51 pm

Jones did get away with some binding on the arm in that game making it harder. The replacements didn't do very well either; Wales were extremely good under the old hit rules.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:58 pm

It will raise questions if we are bested in either set piece, though I don't expect to see us struggle.

by beshocked Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:09 pm

Questions will remain till Australia and Wales are faced.

Doing well in the set piece vs Fiji would be a nice start but the bigger challenges await.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:12 pm

They do. The questions will continue full stop, there's always someone out of the team who's better than the guy in the side.

by quinsforever Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:26 pm

anyone else going to the opener? am hoping the pre-match razzmatazz will be matched by onfield display by England.

4 try bonus point is obviously a must in this group, once (if) england have the game under control.

england to win 33-3, with two late tries for Burgess... Smile

by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:27 pm

You're just jealous quins, he's clearly going to get a hattrick.

by Scottrf Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:28 pm

To three?! Read the script, the Fiji back line make Lomu look weak...

by lostinwales Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:42 pm

Looking at the stats for the Fiji team you'd start by saying the winger weighs 125kg, but actually he is the joint heaviest with Atalifo the prop. So they are huge but maybe not that huge. And it's not 7's...

by quinsforever Tue Sep 15, 2015 1:52 pm

back lines on their own are unlikely to score points. rugby teams are only as strong as their weakest links over 80 minutes. and fijis are usually setpiece, and a quality 10 and often, discipline in the big games.

33-3 would be a fantastic result for england. if england's scrum and lineout fire, i think its achievable.

by Geordie Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:41 pm

beshocked wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
beshocked wrote:englandglory4ever interesting you mentioned Lee Mears - generally there were was the belief that with him in the scrum also, England were a bit underpowered.

Geordiefalcon you say that T.Youngs offers a lot. He's not really impressed consistently for England in the set piece though has he?

He's not a flanker - carrying and big workrate aren't his primary roles - throwing and scrummaging are.

Hartley has consistently been picked over T.Youngs because he's consistently been better in the lineout and scrummaging at international level.

Hood83 you would want a lightweight centre partnership? The Fijians would have a field day....

Beshocked

Has he struggled in the scrum though? Line-out hasn't been great but ive not seen the scrum struggle because he is in there.

Aside from that, I think his role very much IS as a flanker. Indeed I would go so far to say Lancaster expects all his pack to play like a flanker. Hence why it's become more lightweight than many previous England packs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21778425

Both T.Youngs and Parling started vs Wales in 2013 and the scrum wasn't good. Of course it's just one game but was a big one.

T.Youngs is not picked for being solid at the set piece.

Personally I think T.Youngs is an excellent impact player to bring off the bench but do you really trust his set piece at international level?

Marler, T Youngs, Cole, Launchbury, Parling, Croft, Robshaw, Wood.

That was the pack and you single out Youngs and Parling?
Just look at 4/5/6/8 add in a novice Marler and novice Youngs, novice Launchbury...

I do think Lawes and Parling is not the second row want. I think the pack is still lightweight...but to single out Parling and Youngs is not fair based on that game.
But this is the route that Lancaster wants to take England. Solid but nothing more in the scrum. Excellent at the lineout, but a pack of flankers in the loose.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:44 pm

yappysnap wrote:Just as an aside. When Lancaster came in he made this statement about the RWC '15

If we look at previous winners of the World Cup, Australia in 1999 had a total of caps 622 in their starting XV, England had 638 in 2003, South Africa had 668 [in 2007] and New Zealand had 709 last year.
Our rough projection for 2015 with the team that we have got, give or take some players who will drop out and come into it, will have a total of 663 caps, which hopefully will put us in a good place

I like Stuart Lancaster, but that did make me laugh. How is a total of 663 caps a 'rough projection'?! That's a very precise figure! Laugh

by Gwlad Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:11 pm

This is great news..even with no Half or JD2 we are looking at way over 700 caps! Very Happy

RWC 2015 is ours to lose.

by kingelderfield Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:11 pm

I suspect we will need more fatty ball carriers to start against the T1 teams and therefore the question is, are the players under real pressure for the positions and if so does bomber have the gumption to make the necessary changes?

by englandglory4ever Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:17 pm

NZ have regularly blown opposition away in the last few minutes of a match. Lancaster wants his team to be playing high intensity stuff right up to the 80th minute. Nothing wrong with that in my book. If it means loosing a little bulk in the forwards then that's the trade off. A good defence, no an exceptionally good defence, and the ability to play at exceptionally high tempo right up to the final whistle is what will win it.

by Poorfour Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:04 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
yappysnap wrote:Just as an aside. When Lancaster came in he made this statement about the RWC '15

If we look at previous winners of the World Cup, Australia in 1999 had a total of caps 622 in their starting XV, England had 638 in 2003, South Africa had 668 [in 2007] and New Zealand had 709 last year.
Our rough projection for 2015 with the team that we have got, give or take some players who will drop out and come into it, will have a total of 663 caps, which hopefully will put us in a good place

I like Stuart Lancaster, but that did make me laugh. How is a total of 663 caps a 'rough projection'?! That's a very precise figure!

If you look at his early squads, the calculation was based on the assumption that many of them would play through the four year cycle, with a few changes for injury or form. But he's been hit disproportionately hard by more experienced players being lost to injury, stupidity or retirement (from the top of my head: Corbs, Hartley, Croft, Flood, Manu, Foden are unavailable today and Cole, Wilson, Wood and Barritt have all had long periods injured) or loss of form / falling out of favour (Care, Ashton). Even if only some of them would have made the starting XV, it's easy to see where the gap in caps comes from.

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