England v Wales, 26 September

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ENGLAND v WALES
26 September 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

126 Played 126
58 Won 56
12 Drawn 12
56 Lost 58
1,596 Points 1,456

B. Recent Form

6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England

9 March 2014
Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England

16 March 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales

25 February 2012
Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales

13 August 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales

6 August 2011
Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England

4 February 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 26 to England

6 February 2010
Twickenham, London
30 – 17 to England

14 February 2009
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 15 to Wales

2 February 2008
Twickenham, London
19 – 26 to Wales

C. Teams

ENGLAND

[tbc]

WALES

[tbc]

pbuk0 wrote:Is Lancaster a Welsh sleeper agent? He has taken all the creativity/ speed out of the English team,depowered the scrum by playing Youngs/ Parling and put Goode on the bench... need I say more..

I think somebody needs to start an article called 'England v Wales Doom and Gloom' so all you whingers can wallow in self pity on there instead.

I read that Jiffy thinks Roberts will get done over. Surprisingly frank from usually quite a welsh orientated commentator... although he loves league players so it evens it up a bit.

Parling is very important pbuk. May offer less than Launchbury in the loose but if you can't win lineout ball you can't get possession.  Lawes should have been dropped in my opinion.

For me this is the first time Lancaster has thought logically about his side vs. the opposition. Before he simply plays what he believes is his best XV. We all know that Ford will suffer vs. warrenball.
He's finally learning as a coach and had he done so earlier I think he may have had a few titles to his name rather than 4 runners up empty spots in his trophy cabinet.

maestegmafia wrote:

beshocked wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

beshocked wrote:To be honest I think the biggest criticism of Gatland would be that Wales haven't really shown much improvement as of yet since 2008. Yes they made a semi final in the 2011 RWC but they didn't beat any of the top SH sides. We know what Wales are very good against NH sides with Gatland in charge. It's the big three that have been the thorn in his side.

Sure we know Wales are a decent side but their record against Australia is woeful. Australia are good but Wales should be more than capable of victory. The margins have been close but Wales' inability to close out games/finish off Australia has cost them time and again.

Perhaps Gatland will turn a corner this RWC, we'll see.

I think Gatland and Wales will prove more if they beat Australia, not England. Exorcise some Aussie demons.

This Welsh team know they can beat England but is there the belief that they can beat Australia?

In fairness the Lions tour win should have given Wales some belief that they can beat Australia as there were lots of Welsh involved. Despite the injuries I think Wales can still win v Australia but they may need to be a little less predictable. I also don't think they are capable of beating Australia at Australia's own game. In other words if the game gets loose and becomes a back and forth battle of the backs Wales will get destroyed.

Yes plenty of Welsh players involved but it was combination of Welsh,Irish and English which did the job (sorry Scotland but you didn't really feature).

Evidently these Welsh players needed the Irish and English to help them past the mental hurdle.

Of course you don't beat Australia at their own game. You need to neutralise Pocock and Hooper - no easy task, need to get forward dominance and turn on the pressure. Pin them back and force Australia into errors when they attack from deep.

Australia's lineout was mercilessly targetted by Fiji perhaps Wales can do that.

I didn't think that the Ozzie back row played well last night. Fiji again looked the better 6,7 and 8.

Really? You don't think Hooper and Pocock played well? One of them got man of the match. Plus their tackle counts were significant.

So Burgess and Farrell have been selected. Interesting.

15. Mike Brown
14. Anthony Watson
13. Brad Barritt
12. Sam Burgess
11. Jonny May
10. Owen Farrell
9. Ben Youngs

1. Joe Marler
2. Tom Youngs
3. Dan Cole
4. Geoff Parling
5. Courtney Lawes
6. Tom Wood
7. Chris Robshaw (Captain)
8. Billy Vunipola

Replacements

16. Rob Webber
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Kieran Brookes
19. Joe Launchbury
20. James Haskell
21. Richard Wigglesworth
22. George Ford
23. Alex Goode

Pocock is probably the most dangerous player in the world for me at the moment. A fit and in form pocock gives the best backline in the world some teeth.... and that should worry even the kiwi's. Thought he played well, he's been playing well for a while now.

I think the team's OK you know and I like Poorfour's optimistic analysis! I think it is partially a horses for courses team and partially forced by injury and returners from injury. I would have been more excited with Slade on the bench instead of Goode but it's early days for Slade I suppose. I agree that the bench is probably going to be a factor and England have players that can make an impact in the last 20 - hopefully more impact than the Welsh ones. I think Burgess will make errors but on balance will make more of a positive than negative impact. Really can't wait for this one!!

GunsGerms wrote:15. Mike Brown
14. Anthony Watson
13. Brad Barritt
12. Sam Burgess
11. Jonny May
10. Owen Farrell
9. Ben Youngs

1. Joe Marler
2. Tom Youngs
3. Dan Cole
4. Geoff Parling
5. Courtney Lawes
6. Tom Wood
7. Chris Robshaw (Captain)
8. Billy Vunipola

Replacements

16. Rob Webber
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Kieran Brookes
19. Joe Launchbury
20. James Haskell
21. Richard Wigglesworth
22. George Ford
23. Alex Goode

Third time this team has been posted on this thread this morning. Are you trying to drive some posters into suicidal depression?

LondonTiger wrote:I love this bit:

"Indications from World Rugby indicated any contravening of tournament regulations was an honest mistake on Wales' behalf."

That's poor writing. 'Indications... indicated' is just lazy, and it wasn't a mistake on Wales's 'behalf', it was a mistake on Wales's part.

beshocked wrote:
Was this scrummaging against machines or against each other?

Each other. They would scrummage (one back and a couple of local guys standing in in back row where needed), then when the ball was out Rowntree would scream what activity they had to do next that may involve tackling, mauling or breakdown. then it would start all over again. It was once fatigue was setting in that differences became obvious both in terms of scrummaging and how well people could move on to the next phase.

there was little hooking from any of the hookers, not that we see much from other sides. The only comfortable combination for doing an old fashioned strike was Mako/Youngs/Brookes - however then Marler and cole were driving straight through them while youngs was hooking - or the second rows would kick the ball back into the middle .

My favourite part was once they had seemed to clearly define the first choice pack (included Launcbury not Lawes so obviousley not), Mako kep being told to "bore in like Jenkins"

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I love this bit:

"Indications from World Rugby indicated any contravening of tournament regulations was an honest mistake on Wales' behalf."

That's poor writing. 'Indications... indicated' is just lazy, and it wasn't a mistake on Wales's 'behalf', it was a mistake on Wales's part.

sorry, copied straight from Walesonline - decided not to correct their language.

LondonTiger wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I love this bit:

"Indications from World Rugby indicated any contravening of tournament regulations was an honest mistake on Wales' behalf."

That's poor writing. 'Indications... indicated' is just lazy, and it wasn't a mistake on Wales's 'behalf', it was a mistake on Wales's part.

sorry, copied straight from Walesonline - decided not to correct their language.

Walesonline? No wonder it's badly written!

LondonTiger wrote:My favourite part was once they had seemed to clearly define the first choice pack (included Launcbury not Lawes so obviousley not), Mako kep being told to "bore in like Jenkins"

Bore in like Marler, surely?

Not sure Marler was boring in but following the tight head against Fiji.

4. Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 26 caps)
5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 41 caps)

That's my main issue.

Why is Launchbury not starting....that combo doesn't have enough grunt. At least Launchbury gives you extra....

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Was this scrummaging against machines or against each other?

Each other. They would scrummage (one back and a couple of local guys standing in in back row where needed), then when the ball was out Rowntree would scream what activity they had to do next that may involve tackling, mauling or breakdown. then it would start all over again. It was once fatigue was setting in that differences became obvious both in terms of scrummaging and how well people could move on to the next phase.

there was little hooking from any of the hookers, not that we see much from other sides. The only comfortable combination for doing an old fashioned strike was Mako/Youngs/Brookes - however then Marler and cole were driving straight through them while youngs was hooking - or the second rows would kick the ball back into the middle .

My favourite part was once they had seemed to clearly define the first choice pack (included Launcbury not Lawes so obviousley not), Mako kep being told to "bore in like Jenkins"

Nice to get some insight. Thanks Londontiger.

Well hopefully the scrum performs better on the weekend. We'll need it to.

I'm ok with Farrell replacing Ford for this game though I think it shows a lack of confidence on Lanc's part in the forwards doing a job on the Welsh, knowing that Farrell can handle the pressure on the back foot better than Ford. A Lawes and Parling pairing is a worry, would much rather have seen Lanchbury and Parling as for me Parling offers more than Lawes despite looking the lightweight of the tow.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure Marler was boring in but following the tight head against Fiji.

They should all take lessons from the Romanian LH last night. Lassa or whatever he was called.

Had the "heaviest player in the world cup" the French TH in his pocket the whole game.

Not much you can do if the ref doesn't see it though.

Wales: L Williams; G North, S Williams, J Roberts, H Amos; D Biggar, G Davies; G Jenkins, S Baldwin, T Francis, B Davies, AW Jones; D Lydiate, S Warburton, T Faletau.

Reps: K Owens, A Jarvis, S Lee, L Charteris, J Tipuric, L Williams, R Priestland, A Cuthbert.

Looks like both Lancaster and Gats are trying to lose this one - they must fancy Scotland to top their pool and both are trying to avoid the springboks.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not much you can do if the ref doesn't see it though.

Very true....

I just don't understand how Wales cant start Tipuric.

I think he is absolutely class....

rodders wrote:Looks like both Lancaster and Gats are trying to lose this one - they must fancy Scotland to top their pool and both are trying to avoid the springboks.

Why do you say that about Wales. That is about the best 1st 15 they can put out and is pretty solid on paper (ignoring form injuries etc) The bench is mostly ho hum though.

lostinwales wrote:Wales: L Williams; G North, S Williams, J Roberts, H Amos; D Biggar, G Davies; G Jenkins, S Baldwin, T Francis, B Davies, AW Jones; D Lydiate, S Warburton, T Faletau.

Reps: K Owens, A Jarvis, S Lee, L Charteris, J Tipuric, L Williams, R Priestland, A Cuthbert.

For a side hit by injuries, that's really not bad. Very pleased that Cuthbert's not starting, surprised that Charteris isn't and that Mike Phillips isn't on the bench.

Is Jake Ball injured? Can't believe Bradley Davies is starting

Jimpy wrote:

Third time this team has been posted on this thread this morning. Are you trying to drive some posters into suicidal depression?

Haha sorry.

lostinwales wrote:Wales: L Williams; G North, S Williams, J Roberts, H Amos; D Biggar, G Davies; G Jenkins, S Baldwin, T Francis, B Davies, AW Jones; D Lydiate, S Warburton, T Faletau.

Reps: K Owens, A Jarvis, S Lee, L Charteris, J Tipuric, L Williams, R Priestland, A Cuthbert.

If I had a slit wrists Icon I'd post it.

Still providing Biggar doesn't get injured early on, I'm happy enough Wales can do a job here. I'd of preferred Mike Phillips to start because of his experience and that fact he's won at Twickenham before, but I'll trust Gatland knows what he's doing.

lostinwales wrote:

rodders wrote:Looks like both Lancaster and Gats are trying to lose this one - they must fancy Scotland to top their pool and both are trying to avoid the springboks.

Why do you say that about Wales. That is about the best 1st 15 they can put out and is pretty solid on paper (ignoring form injuries etc) The bench is mostly ho hum though.

Apart from Tipuric, Charteris and Cuthbert.

Obviously North has been switched to take May on but it looks pretty negative on paper.

Wales took England to pieces at the breakdown in 2013 when both Tuperic and Warburton started, surprised Gats went for Lydiate for this one.

Pleased for Amos,  think he will counter the defence well but Wales will need to bring him inside, if Burgess catches him though its lights out.

B Davies is a mad one, No Tipuric... even worse.

It just doesn't look like a team which is set to take a tournament by storm.

The big question is whether we can reach the 1000 posts and break this thread before the match actually starts.

Lee not starting suggests he still has issues. Cuthbert seems an 'interesting' choice but then I guess if there is an injury in the centers North will move inside but I wouldn't say that prospect is at all scary. (And then I remember who our outside back reserve is )

lostinwales wrote:Lee not starting suggests he still has issues. Cuthbert seems an 'interesting' choice but then I guess if there is an injury in the centers North will move inside but I wouldn't say that prospect is at all scary. (And then I remember who our outside back reserve is )

Who else do Wales have in the backs that could have benched? Morgan and Phillips?

Suggestion in the media that Wales may have broken the rules about training numbers. May even have been cheating. Looks like they have had players training this week that were not squad members. Could this have been due to their injuries? If so it looks like cheating. Wonder what they will do about it. Probably put it in the "too difficult" drawer and do nothing.

rodders wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

rodders wrote:Looks like both Lancaster and Gats are trying to lose this one - they must fancy Scotland to top their pool and both are trying to avoid the springboks.

Why do you say that about Wales. That is about the best 1st 15 they can put out and is pretty solid on paper (ignoring form injuries etc) The bench is mostly ho hum though.

Apart from Tipuric, Charteris and Cuthbert.

Obviously North has been switched to take May on but it looks pretty negative on paper.

Wales took England to pieces at the breakdown in 2013 when both Tuperic and Warburton started, surprised Gats went for Lydiate for this one.

Well in 2013 other than a (sym)pathetic referee you also had different scrum laws and a one man scrum in Adam Jones. Wales could afford to go with a lightweight backrow. I think with the concerns over the form and condition of the props Wales needed more ballast behind the front row this time.

It might also be that they feel that they need someone to stop Billy and Sam on the gainline

Both teams are playing for the draw, Gats and SL had a long phone call and decide that it is the best way to get rid of AUS.

Tipuric coming off the bench might be useful, having Lydiates physicality and tackling if things get rough early on is more important. Lydiate can tackle and Warburton can steal, it's ideal to stop players like Vunipola.

Lets make a deal with the English... Rhys Priestland can play on YOUR team, IF and only IF you don't hurt, tackle, annoy, poke or irritate Dan Biggar for the entire 80 minutes. Sound fair?

Ok, I'm off to sell Ice to Eskimos....

GunsGerms wrote:So Burgess and Farrell have been selected. Interesting.

Not surprised following last Friday's game. George Ford didn't have the greatest of games and Owen Farrell made more of an impact when he came on. Thought Farrell coming in for Ford was an obvious move. Surprised about the furore in the media. England lacked a bit of creativity against Fiji so again the fact that Sam Burgess is in is no real shakes. Jonathan Joseph was one of the better players for me on Friday and will be a big miss.

LondonTiger wrote:

lostinwales wrote:Lee not starting suggests he still has issues. Cuthbert seems an 'interesting' choice but then I guess if there is an injury in the centers North will move inside but I wouldn't say that prospect is at all scary. (And then I remember who our outside back reserve is )

Who else do Wales have in the backs that could have benched? Morgan and Phillips?

Makes sense. Its a huge shame we don't have JJ for this one, our best back line could have had a lot of fun pulling this one apart out wide.

If I would say who the happier, more confident coach is, I'd say Lancaster. He's made choices to counter Wales, he has an obvious game plan which looks to upset the opposition. I don't see any particular vision in Gatland's selection.

Charteris... why oh why is he not starting. You have to put pressure on Parling and Youngs, I just don't see it with Davies & Jones in the lineout.

I think Amos can suit a big man defence like England's but its not without high risk.

If they've picked North on the right wing to target May, I think its an error. I reckon May is a stronger tackler than Watson by a fair margin

englandglory4ever wrote:Suggestion in the media that Wales may have broken the rules about training numbers. May even have been cheating. Looks like they have had players training this week that were not squad members. Could this have been due to their injuries? If so it looks like cheating. Wonder what they will do about it. Probably put it in the "too difficult" drawer and do nothing.

Oh quit whining... Read the article before making comments.  I don't think any of those players have been involved in Wales world cup squad and none of them would likely be chosen anyway.  I'm not even sure who Aled Summerhill is?     While Dan Fish is often playing for Cardiff RFC not the Blues. Dan Baker might be the only one as I know he was involved in the initial training squad, but was so cack in the first Ireland game he was dropped.

Teams are allowed to bring in outsiders - local sides for example - to help with training but they must not be men who have been involved in tournament preparations.

A World Rugby statement said: "We have not said they (Wales) have breached the terms of participation but we will be seeking further information."

Nicky Smith, Rob Evans, Kristian Dacey, Rhys Patchell, Aled Summerhill, Dan Baker, Jordan Williams and Dan Fish all joining Warren Gatland's side at their Sunbury training base.

The names mentioned above were all involved in training during the 10-minute slot which was open to the media with the Wales camp insisting they were only there to act as defensive cover before returning back over the Severn Bridge on Wednesday evening.

BamBam wrote:If they've picked North on the right wing to target May, I think its an error. I reckon May is a stronger tackler than Watson by a fair margin

Watson looks better positionally though. May sometimes looks a bit like the one who didn't get the memo. Has the pace to make it up luckily.. if he has enough distance to the try line... in the 22 no one is fast enough to counter being exploited by another winger.

Shifty wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Suggestion in the media that Wales may have broken the rules about training numbers. May even have been cheating. Looks like they have had players training this week that were not squad members. Could this have been due to their injuries? If so it looks like cheating. Wonder what they will do about it. Probably put it in the "too difficult" drawer and do nothing.

Oh quit whining... Read the article before making comments.  I don't think any of those players have been involved in Wales world cup squad and none of them would likely be chosen anyway.  I'm not even sure who Aled Summerhill is?     While Dan Fish is often playing for Cardiff RFC not the Blues.  Dan Baker might be the only one as I know he was involved in the initial training squad, but was so cack in the first Ireland game he was dropped.

Teams are allowed to bring in outsiders - local sides for example - to help with training but they must not be men who have been involved in tournament preparations.

A World Rugby statement said: "We have not said they (Wales) have breached the terms of participation but we will be seeking further information."

Nicky Smith, Rob Evans, Kristian Dacey, Rhys Patchell, Aled Summerhill, Dan Baker, Jordan Williams and Dan Fish all joining Warren Gatland's side at their Sunbury training base.

The names mentioned above were all involved in training during the 10-minute slot which was open to the media with the Wales camp insisting they were only there to act as defensive cover before returning back over the Severn Bridge on Wednesday evening.

I'm not particularly fussed as its not a huge deal, but Smith, Evans, Dacey, Patchell and Baker have all been in and around the squad in the last year haven't they?

Shifty wrote:Oh quit whining... Read the article before making comments.  I don't think any of those players have been involved in Wales world cup squad and none of them would likely be chosen anyway.  I'm not even sure who Aled Summerhill is?     While Dan Fish is often playing for Cardiff RFC not the Blues.  Dan Baker might be the only one as I know he was involved in the initial training squad, but was so cack in the first Ireland game he was dropped.

Teams are allowed to bring in outsiders - local sides for example - to help with training but they must not be men who have been involved in tournament preparations.

A World Rugby statement said: "We have not said they (Wales) have breached the terms of participation but we will be seeking further information."

Nicky Smith, Rob Evans, Kristian Dacey, Rhys Patchell, Aled Summerhill, Dan Baker, Jordan Williams and Dan Fish all joining Warren Gatland's side at their Sunbury training base.

The names mentioned above were all involved in training during the 10-minute slot which was open to the media with the Wales camp insisting they were only there to act as defensive cover before returning back over the Severn Bridge on Wednesday evening.

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/33673.php#.VgPSn8tVhHw

Five of the people involved in training (in bold) were in the original 47 man squad. not necessarily a massive breach of the rules - but likely to lead to a fine and just perhaps a "ban" on any of the players being called up to the squad should there be injuries.

If the Wales setup knew the rules, and you'd hope they would, then why do it?

I'm sure they also knew you've only allowed to pick players who qualify through the grandparent rule when they actually have a welsh grandparent so mistakes can happen.

I don't know what's worse: doing it because you don't know the rules, or doing it despite knowing the rules. Either way, it's not clever.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I don't know what's worse: doing it because you don't know the rules, or doing it despite knowing the rules. Either way, it's not clever.

As I suggested earlier it is either stupid or devious. As Patchell was captured on film in the training looks less like devious.

B

BamBam wrote:I'm not particularly fussed as its not a huge deal, but Smith, Evans, Dacey, Patchell and Baker have all been in and around the squad in the last year haven't they?

Based on World rugby's logic, Wales have 4 teams capable of assisting Wales the Ospreys, Blues, Scarlets and Dragons, but if they helped they'd be breaching the rules because some of the players involved would of been involved in Welsh squads?

It does seem odd... Baker yes, probably Evans as well, I can't remember the exact training squad to be honest.