England v Wales, 26 September

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ENGLAND v WALES
26 September 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

126 Played 126
58 Won 56
12 Drawn 12
56 Lost 58
1,596 Points 1,456

B. Recent Form

6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England

9 March 2014
Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England

16 March 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales

25 February 2012
Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales

13 August 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales

6 August 2011
Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England

4 February 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 26 to England

6 February 2010
Twickenham, London
30 – 17 to England

14 February 2009
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 15 to Wales

2 February 2008
Twickenham, London
19 – 26 to Wales

C. Teams

ENGLAND

[tbc]

WALES

[tbc]

Forwards (25)
Rob Evans (Scarlets), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Paul James (Bath Rugby), Aaron Jarvis (Ospreys), Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), Rhodri Jones (Scarlets), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Nicky Smith (Ospreys), Scott Baldwin (Ospreys), Kristian Dacey (Cardiff Blues), Richard Hibbard (Gloucester Rugby), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Jake Ball (Scarlets), Luke Charteris (Racing Metro), Dominic Day (Bath Rugby), Bradley Davies (Wasps), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Rory Thornton (Ospreys), Dan Baker (Ospreys), Taulupe Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons), James King (Ospreys), Dan Lydiate (Ospreys), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester Rugby), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Sam Warburton (Capt - Cardiff Blues).
Backs (22)
Gareth Davies (Scarlets), Mike Phillips (Racing Metro), Rhys Webb (Ospreys), Lloyd Williams (Cardiff Blues), Gareth Anscombe (Cardiff Blues), Dan Biggar (Ospreys), James Hook (Gloucester Rugby), Matthew Morgan (Bristol Rugby), Rhys Patchell (Cardiff Blues), Rhys Priestland (Scarlets), Cory Allen (Cardiff Blues), Jack Dixon (Newport Gwent Dragons), Tyler Morgan (Newport Gwent Dragons), Jamie Roberts (Racing Metro), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Hallam Amos (Newport Gwent Dragons), Alex Cuthbert (Cardiff Blues), Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon), Tom James (Exeter Chiefs), George North (Northampton Saints), Eli Walker (Ospreys), Liam Williams (Scarlets).

I would guess most teams wanting assistance might just have to look at local English teams given the location of the RWC. Wales doesn't have to be different

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If the Wales setup knew the rules, and you'd hope they would, then why do it?

I don't know, but try asking Saracens and Bath as a starter. Maybe Wales just didn't like the rules, so it was only right to ignore them.

The IRB are going to dock them a point but are going to wait to see if they score 4 tries against Fiji first.

Exact squad is in the link I attached above.

Wales are currentlky just outside London. they are allowed to call on local club sides there to help.

Welsh rugby always follows rules.  The story must be a wind-up.

Jordan Williams should of been that lad is awesome!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbKu534J6QU

Can the Ospreys have him please?

LondonTiger wrote:Exact squad is in the link I attached above.

Wales are currentlky just outside London. they are allowed to call on local club sides there to help.

but these no good club sides in London... Wasps moved to Coventry

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm sure they also knew you've only allowed to pick players who qualify through the grandparent rule when they actually have a welsh grandparent so mistakes can happen.

Not like those players did anything mind well bar put Charvis on the international scene allowing him to screw up the 01 lions series.

Innocent mistake... all kiwi mistakes are innocent.

lostinwales wrote:Wales: L Williams; G North, S Williams, J Roberts, H Amos; D Biggar, G Davies; G Jenkins, S Baldwin, T Francis, B Davies, AW Jones; D Lydiate, S Warburton, T Faletau.

Reps: K Owens, A Jarvis, S Lee, L Charteris, J Tipuric, L Williams, R Priestland, A Cuthbert.

Feeling quite a bit more optimistic about England's chances after seeing the Welsh team!

3 rookies that England can target - Francis,Davies and Amos.

England need to pile the pressure on Wales.

Shifty wrote:Tipuric coming off the bench might be useful, having Lydiates physicality and tackling if things get rough early on is more important.  Lydiate can tackle and Warburton can steal, it's ideal to stop players like Vunipola.  

Lets make a deal with the English...   Rhys Priestland can play on YOUR team, IF and only IF you don't hurt, tackle, annoy, poke or irritate Dan Biggar for the entire 80 minutes.  Sound fair?

Ok, I'm off to sell Ice to Eskimos....  

Yeah we'll make sure he's given special treatment. I think Lawes will be available to look after him..

Shifty wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Exact squad is in the link I attached above.

Wales are currentlky just outside London. they are allowed to call on local club sides there to help.

but these no good club sides in London... Wasps moved to Coventry

I'm sure Saracens would have been delighted to assist!

Lancs could have even called up a few of the lads .. "Maro, I didn't pick you in the squad because I don't think you hit hard enough. Go prove me wrong "

LondonTiger wrote:

Shifty wrote:Oh quit whining... Read the article before making comments.  I don't think any of those players have been involved in Wales world cup squad and none of them would likely be chosen anyway.  I'm not even sure who Aled Summerhill is?     While Dan Fish is often playing for Cardiff RFC not the Blues.  Dan Baker might be the only one as I know he was involved in the initial training squad, but was so cack in the first Ireland game he was dropped.

Teams are allowed to bring in outsiders - local sides for example - to help with training but they must not be men who have been involved in tournament preparations.

A World Rugby statement said: "We have not said they (Wales) have breached the terms of participation but we will be seeking further information."

Nicky Smith, Rob Evans, Kristian Dacey, Rhys Patchell, Aled Summerhill, Dan Baker, Jordan Williams and Dan Fish all joining Warren Gatland's side at their Sunbury training base.

The names mentioned above were all involved in training during the 10-minute slot which was open to the media with the Wales camp insisting they were only there to act as defensive cover before returning back over the Severn Bridge on Wednesday evening.

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/33673.php#.VgPSn8tVhHw

Five of the people involved in training (in bold) were in the original 47 man squad. not necessarily a massive breach of the rules - but likely to lead to a fine and just perhaps a "ban" on any of the players being called up to the squad should there be injuries.

"A ban on any players being called up to the squad should there be injuries" where did you get that information from???

That quote isn't actually a quote. You have "A ban on any players being called up to the squad should there be injuries", LT had "a "ban" on any of the players being called up to the squad should there be injuries"

That "the" is pretty important. So if Wales cheated, and had additional training time with a player who was in the original training squad, they can't call him up.  It reads like that is just a guess from LT, but it seems like a reasonable punishment.  Otherwise you end up with a disparity between the haves and have nots where if this happened to Fiji it would cripple them. But with a financially successful union like the WRU has been recently they could afford the fine for the advantage.

I cant cant believe that England have dropped Ford for Farrell. That will surely benefit Wales.

eirebilly wrote:I cant cant believe that England have dropped Ford for Farrell. That will surely benefit Wales.

Your bus left at least three pages ago.

eirebilly wrote:I cant cant believe that England have dropped Ford for Farrell. That will surely benefit Wales.

You don't believe a player who's da is on the coaching team got picked as first choice 10? Really?

This has been bothering me all week. If wales decide that one of the "injured" props is ok and put them on the bench for Saturday, I am assuming that Wales will not use them in a tactical substitution. If they are required due to injury to play and they breakdown on the field what happens?

Of course there will be uncontested scrums, but should there be a further punishment for Wales (although not in the game). The fact is that they have kept a stronger player in the squad for later in the tournament at the expense of breaking the rules in one game!

HammerofThunor wrote:That quote isn't actually a quote. You have "A ban on any players being called up to the squad should there be injuries", LT had "a "ban" on any of the players being called up to the squad should there be injuries"

That "the" is pretty important. So if Wales cheated, and had additional training time with a player who was in the original training squad, they can't call him up.  It reads like that is just a guess from LT, but it seems like a reasonable punishment.  Otherwise you end up with a disparity between the haves and have nots where if this happened to Fiji it would cripple them. But with a financially successful union like the WRU has been recently they could afford the fine for the advantage.

Yes it was purely conjecture on my part as to what might be an unlikely, but not necessarily unreasonable, penalty.

The rules allow for fines and point deductions. The latter would be silly.

HammerofThunor wrote:That quote isn't actually a quote. You ha

Either way my question is the same, where did you get your information from.

"A ban on any players being called up to the squad should there be injuries", LT had "a "ban" on any of the players being called up to the squad should there be injuries"

That "the" is pretty important. So if Wales cheated, and had additional training time with a player who was in the original training squad, they can't call him up.  It reads like that is just a guess from LT, but it seems like a reasonable punishment.  Otherwise you end up with a disparity between the haves and have nots where if this happened to Fiji it would cripple them. But with a financially successful union like the WRU has been recently they could afford the fine for the advantage.

Hammer

Either with or without a "the", where did you get this information???

Or is this your own personal thoughts on the matter...?

eirebilly wrote:I cant cant believe that England have dropped Ford for Farrell. That will surely benefit Wales.

Yes and No.

Defence improved. Kicking with the tee accuracy and range, improved.

Attack, reduced.

however form to form, Farrell is playing better and Ford's management vs. Fiji was pretty woeful.

No good selecting a pivot who the opposition target all day long... he'll spend so long under the cosh that by the time he gets the ball he'll hardly remember what day of the week it is. Wales will feel a little less inclined to attack Farrell's channel especially with Burgess potential blindsiding any attack.

tazfalklands wrote:This has been bothering me all week. If wales decide that one of the "injured" props is ok and put them on the bench for Saturday, I am assuming that Wales will not use them in a tactical substitution. If they are required due to injury to play and they breakdown on the field what happens?

Of course there will be uncontested scrums, but should there be a further punishment for Wales (although not in the game). The fact is that they have kept a stronger player in the squad for later in the tournament at the expense of breaking the rules in one game!

I believe if they are unable to replace a prop they do go to uncontested scrums but they are also reduced to 14 for the rest of the match

tazfalklands wrote:This has been bothering me all week. If wales decide that one of the "injured" props is ok and put them on the bench for Saturday, I am assuming that Wales will not use them in a tactical substitution. If they are required due to injury to play and they breakdown on the field what happens?

Of course there will be uncontested scrums, but should there be a further punishment for Wales (although not in the game). The fact is that they have kept a stronger player in the squad for later in the tournament at the expense of breaking the rules in one game!

Injury doubts over both props on the bench. Should they come on and then breakdown - not sure there is anything (other than uncontested scrums) that could be done. Of course there would be media frenzy about whether they were fit to take the field - and the teams doctors duty of care questioned.

maestegmafia wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:That quote isn't actually a quote. You ha

Either way my question is the same, where did you get your information from.

"A ban on any players being called up to the squad should there be injuries", LT had "a "ban" on any of the players being called up to the squad should there be injuries"

That "the" is pretty important. So if Wales cheated, and had additional training time with a player who was in the original training squad, they can't call him up.  It reads like that is just a guess from LT, but it seems like a reasonable punishment.  Otherwise you end up with a disparity between the haves and have nots where if this happened to Fiji it would cripple them. But with a financially successful union like the WRU has been recently they could afford the fine for the advantage.

Hammer

Either with or without a "the", where did you get this information???

Or is this your own personal thoughts on the matter...?

Read the the whole thing, and then look at LT's post after mine. That should clear it up.

lostinwales wrote:

tazfalklands wrote:This has been bothering me all week. If wales decide that one of the "injured" props is ok and put them on the bench for Saturday, I am assuming that Wales will not use them in a tactical substitution. If they are required due to injury to play and they breakdown on the field what happens?

Of course there will be uncontested scrums, but should there be a further punishment for Wales (although not in the game). The fact is that they have kept a stronger player in the squad for later in the tournament at the expense of breaking the rules in one game!

I believe if they are unable to replace a prop they do go to uncontested scrums but they are also reduced to 14 for the rest of the match

That has always bothered me a little.... say a hooker is replaced through injury. Well isn't it the incentive of the opposition to try and get his replacement off the field? If he gets injured like it or not the rules state they will go down to 14 men.

Worth a yellow card??? not terrible consequence given the opposition will be forced to 14 men also?

Of course should a replacement be needed for injury and the coaches say "ah sorry, they cannot come on" then we enter the realms of the team losing any points accrued from the game.

fa0019 wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I cant cant believe that England have dropped Ford for Farrell. That will surely benefit Wales.

Yes and No.

Defence improved. Kicking with the tee accuracy and range, improved.

Attack, reduced.

however form to form, Farrell is playing better and Ford's management vs. Fiji was pretty woeful.

No good selecting a pivot who the opposition target all day long... he'll spend so long under the cosh that by the time he gets the ball he'll hardly remember what day of the week it is. Wales will feel a little less inclined to attack Farrell's channel especially with Burgess potential blindsiding any attack.

Ford will also almost certainly come on in the second half and may still have an important say in what happens.

Given that we are going with Burgess it makes sense if there are worries over his positioning in defense to have guys either side of him who are strong defenders. Farrell doesn't have the full set of skill that Ford has but on form he is a very good FH, and finally, after a year and a half or so of being a liability, he is looking on form.

Uncontested scrums due to two injuries in a single position does not cause a team to lose a player.

You could say that about anything in the sport. Injure their kicker. Injure their front row. Injure their star player.

If you go down the route of changing the rules because you're worried about teams deliberately injuring players you're pretty ****ed already.  There is a difference between that and making them tackle all day, etc.  But as I said, it's not really any different for kickers. Sub your kicker? get his replacement battered and there is nothing you can do (other than blood capsules of course).

EDIT: LT, then how do you go the uncontested scrums? It's always due to two injuries isn't it?

LondonTiger wrote:Uncontested scrums due to two injuries in a single position does not cause a team to lose a player.

Wasn't there some discussion on this after one of the Rugby Championship games? I am not an expert but I believe there was some discrepancy between what did happen and what, by the laws, should have happened.

Either way it seems a hell of a risk to have a prop on the bench who may not be 100%. Given that Francis is unlikely to last the match Lee will have to play his part, and when there are scrums any injuries he has will be tested to the full. If he breaks down again that may well be it for him for the RWC (let alone what that does for Wales)

The issue comes if one player is injured and another gets a card

Wales don't have a good record when it comes to player welfare.....George North in the 6 nations is a case in point.

I'm not so sure about Bradley Davies starting. He hasn't really featured much so why would he start now; I assume he has been 'training well' . Though with Charteris on the bench it now means we could have a stronger impact with Owens, Lee and Tips also coming into the game. The replacement backs however will have zero impact. It's lucky England have pretty average replacement backs too .

I'd say Englands replacemnts are similart to Wales, some beefy dynamic forwards who can make a difference and some lacksustre backs. However Id take George Ford everytime over Pristland should there be a need to chase the game.

Anyone want to discuss Garces impact on the game?

It'll be aerial for the first half. Brown chasing, panting, grimacing, ducking and diving.... to keep the Welsh heavyweights on their toes. Then in the second half it'll be Ford with the more lethal precision attack and Brown will still be chasing, panting, barking, grimacing, ducking and diving as before. Brown is just Brown. no slow-down button on that lad.

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm not so sure about Bradley Davies starting. He hasn't really featured much so why would he start now; I assume he has been 'training well' . Though with Charteris on the bench it now means we could have a stronger impact with Owens, Lee and Tips also coming into the game. The replacement backs however will have zero impact. It's lucky England have pretty average replacement backs too .

Am I correct in thinking Owens has been looking a bit ropey of late? He looked good when he first played for Wales

It's ok the storm in the tea cup is over:

WRU officially warned by World Rugby

World Rugby have officially warned the WRU after players from outside the 31-man squad, who were included in the wider training group this summer, attended training yesterday.

The WRU maintained that the players there were only present as defensive cover and World Rugby are happy that no deliberate breach of tournament rules was intended.

The statement read...

World Rugby was last night (Wed) made aware of reports of an apparent breach by the Wales team of the spirit of the Rugby World Cup 2015 terms of participation regarding team training arrangements.
While World Rugby is satisfied that no deliberate breach was intended, an official warning has been issued to the WRU and all participating teams have been informed that additional players from the extended squad, including potential injury replacements, may not be included in any training sessions.

And I do also think England's replacements would have looked a lot better with Slade or Nowell instead of Goode.

Increasingly looking like Care will just be a spectator this RWC also.

Is this a Gatland tactic?

Minor breach gets everyone up in arms, takes pressure away from players, and gives the England camp a little worry of 'what are they doing?' proportion?

From an England persepective:

While we are not dominant in the scrums, I think against this Wales front 5 we should be OK. I expect Lauchbury to get an extended run out - 25 minutes or so. Wouldn't be surprised to see Brookes and Webber given more game time as well (compared with v Fiji).

Back row picks itself if Morgan is a doubt.

Ben Youngs - where did his sniping of the fringes go last week? Fantastic in the last 6Ns, but looks like his form is a bit down. Wiggy actually gave good momentum to the game when he came on (a bit chicken and egg - was it because of him we started making ground, or were we finally getting through the tiring Fijian defence and generating quick ball for him to use?) Either way, he did well enough to at least justify remaining on the bench.

Not that surprised by the inclusion of Farrell. If Ford was playing as well as most of last season's 6Ns then he offers enough more that OF in an attacking sense to make up for the (slightly) poorer defence and goal kicking, but his last few games the back line has rarely fired. Farrell's attacking game does get a bit under-rated at times - he's particularly adept at taking the ball to the defensive line and putting a runner through a gap with a delayed pass (worked really well with Burrell, and could be even more dangerous if Burgess can get the timing right).

Centres - Not my choice of a good combination. OK, wouldn't have happened f JJ was fit, but looks too much like a selection to negate the opposition rather than to win the game. BAsed on the Fiji game, I think Burgess would have had a good chance of starting even if Joseph had been fit.

Back 3 - No real issues, but I do wonder who Nowell has upset. For me, the 23 spot should have been either him or Slade rather than Goode, as they offer more versatility.

wrfc1980 wrote:Wales don't have a good record when it comes to player welfare.....George North in the 6 nations is a case in point.

what a pathetic comment, and nothing more than a cheap swing...

wrfc1980 wrote:I'd say Englands replacemnts are similart to Wales, some beefy dynamic forwards who can make a difference and some lacksustre backs. However Id take George Ford everytime over Pristland should there be a need to chase the game.

I don't know much about Ford but he seems to be highly rated - and even with knowing so little about Ford I would take him over Priestland every time as well.

Goode can play FB or FH. Not too happy with him anywhere else. Slade can probably play 10,12,13, and 15. Nowell can play outside center, wings or FB. It does seem an odd selection

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm not so sure about Bradley Davies starting. He hasn't really featured much so why would he start now; I assume he has been 'training well' . Though with Charteris on the bench it now means we could have a stronger impact with Owens, Lee and Tips also coming into the game. The replacement backs however will have zero impact. It's lucky England have pretty average replacement backs too .

Am I correct in thinking Owens has been looking a bit ropey of late? He looked good when he first played for Wales

He hasn't featured for us that often. He usually makes a good impact when coming off the bench. You could argue that he's never been able to nail a starting spot in the team which may indicate that he has limitations. Webber is probably the better hooker.

Nowell is just unlucky that he has Waston (Will end up a England legend) and Jonny May in front of him who has decided running straight rather than sideways is the better option.

Goode on the bench is odd, given we already have FH cover there, and Watson covers FB on the pitch. Nowell would have made more sense (Slade too). I like Goode, who gets a lot of undeserved stick on here (common trend with Sarries players?) but I'm not sure I see a situation, other than an injury to Brown, where I'd particularly want him coming on on Saturday.

No9 wrote:

wrfc1980 wrote:Wales don't have a good record when it comes to player welfare.....George North in the 6 nations is a case in point.

what a pathetic comment, and nothing more than a cheap swing...

Disagree, No.9, Wales management admitted they got it wrong, some questions still remain unanswered, how everybody in the stadium saw the second incident about 6 times, but nor one of the Wales management team or medical team. No one has ever explained that one.

I hope they have it right now, but the statement is correct, a lack of options has often resulted in Welsh players playing or playing on with injuries when other teams would not have played them.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Goode on the bench is odd, given we already have FH cover there, and Watson covers FB on the pitch. Nowell would have made more sense (Slade too). I like Goode, who gets a lot of undeserved stick on here (common trend with Sarries players?) but I'm not sure I see a situation, other than an injury to Brown, where I'd particularly want him coming on on Saturday.

Injection of pace?

Just my view on the head to head confrontation. Based on form, potential, experience, weather conditions. Firstly its forecasted to be dry and sharp all weekend, clear sky and about 15 degrees at the start of the match. Both sides fairly refreshed, and both sides making a few surprise calls Sir Lancaster starting Burgess, Farrell with Ben Morgan not in sight and Mr Gatland choosing Amos over Cuthbert, Bradley Davies over Charteris, and with Mike Phillips not even in the 23. I think "the bench" selections could decide this game

There are some very tough calls Liam Williams potentially is the best attacking FB in the WC2015, whilst Brown has proved in the first week he is the go to 15 by far. All the English attention will be on the Biggar/Roberts combo which might be a disaster if they forget about the two guys outside them, Gareth Davies IMHO is a biggar attacking threat than Webb and he knows where the try line is, which leaves potentially the MOTM player in Scott Williams and England should know all about him and how he can cut you to shreds. I think the Burgess selection is a master-stroke and he will not only nullify Roberts but his fitness, aggression and attacking lines will cause the Welsh massive problems. However its the pack and specifically the front five which will decide the game, and this is where Wales led by AWJ will edge it
 
Brown 15 Williams
Watson 14 North
Barritt 13 Williams
Burgess 12 Roberts
May 11 Amos
Farrell 10 Biggar
Youngs 9  Davies
Marler 1 Jenkins
Youngs 2 Baldwin
Cole 3 Francis
Parling 4 Davies
Lawes 5 Jones
Wood 6 Lydiate
Robshaw 7 Warburton
Vunipola 8 Faletau