England v Wales, 26 September

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ENGLAND v WALES
26 September 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

126 Played 126
58 Won 56
12 Drawn 12
56 Lost 58
1,596 Points 1,456

B. Recent Form

6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England

9 March 2014
Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England

16 March 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales

25 February 2012
Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales

13 August 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales

6 August 2011
Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England

4 February 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 26 to England

6 February 2010
Twickenham, London
30 – 17 to England

14 February 2009
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 15 to Wales

2 February 2008
Twickenham, London
19 – 26 to Wales

C. Teams

ENGLAND

[tbc]

WALES

[tbc]

Fanster wrote:You have to give him credit, even when he cocks up people give him credit for playing mind games, not a bad place to be in!!

Oh Gats is a superstar of Rugby Union.  He's box-office.  Comparing him to Alex Ferguson is even an insult to him as we don't need to chase down lazy footballing examples of what he is.

He's a growling, grumpy, passionate Kiwi, and we've had a few of them in Rugby history.  I've kinda liked them all actually.  They keep it all entertaining.  Speaking their minds, not giving a f**k who they hurt or belittle, entertaining the press with their put-downs - the will-to-win total obsession.

I salute old Gatland.  It's been an entertaining 10 or 15 years of rugby and he's played a big part.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

wayne wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:All I will say is if we have to rely on that bench (Tipuric and Charteris aside) to see out or even win us the watch then god help.  WTF is Jarvis doing covering loosehead beggars belief.

BW, there is quite a groundswell of opinion on our board to play him at L/H, as in the Welsh trial match at the Liberty a year or so ago he showed up very well apparently, I didn't see that game so cannot comment, he is definitely NOT a Regional standard scrummaging T/H, for a T/H he is very good about the field, and IIRC he was a L/H when he joined us a few years ago.

wayne,

I hope to god you are right

I was going to say he was originally a LH. It was Wales that wanted him converted to the tight. But he isnt big enough. I reckon he can do a job on the loose

Just looking at this on paper; head to head

Brown vs Williams = Brown
Watson vs North = North
Barritt vs Williams = Williams
Burgess vs Roberts = Roberts
Amos vs May = May
Biggar vs Farrell = Farrell
Davies vs Youngs - Youngs

Faletau vs Vunipola = two different type of players. It depends what you want from your 8
Warburton vs Robshaw = Warburton
Lydiate vs Wood = Wood (Wood is more of an all rounder)
Jones vs Lawes = Jones
Davies vs Parling = Parling
Francis vs Cole = Francis (Cole's scrummaging has left alot to be desired in previous games)
Baldwin vs Youngs = Baldwin (youngs throwing can be suspect at key times - think NZ a year or two back
Jenkins vs Marler = Marler (again Jenkin's scrummaging, particularly in this fixture, has not been good enough)

I make that Wales 7 - 8 England in the head to head, although all subjective. Shows just how close this is going to be!

GavinDragon wrote:Just looking at this on paper; head to head

Brown vs Williams = Brown
Watson vs North = North
Barritt vs Williams = Williams
Burgess vs Roberts = Roberts
Amos vs May = May
Biggar vs Farrell = Farrell
Davies vs Youngs - Youngs

Faletau vs Vunipola = two different type of players. It depends what you want from your 8
Warburton vs Robshaw = Warburton
Lydiate vs Wood = Wood (Wood is more of an all rounder)
Jones vs Lawes = Jones
Davies vs Parling = Parling
Francis vs Cole = Francis (Cole's scrummaging has left alot to be desired in previous games)
Baldwin vs Youngs = Baldwin (youngs throwing can be suspect at key times - think NZ a year or two back
Jenkins vs Marler = Marler (again Jenkin's scrummaging, particularly in this fixture, has not been good enough)

I make that Wales 7 - 8 England in the head to head, although all subjective. Shows just how close this is going to be!

Farrell > Biggar...?

Purely on the basis of more big game experience in RCC and Lions etc. Of form you could certainly make a case for Biggar

GavinDragon wrote:Purely on the basis of more big game experience in RCC and Lions etc. Of form you could certainly make a case for Biggar

Fair enough.

I think Farrell seems to be back at his best at the moment so that will be another match up that will deserve some thoughtful examination.

Other interesting battles will be the two lions at lock and tighthead vs loosehead. Gethin vs Cole and AWJ vs Parling. Marler vs Francis is also a good little battle.

I wonder whether Gareth Davies has found enough form while also maybe having slipped under the radar enough to put a decent challenge on established England first choice Ben Youngs...?

There are some great match ups in this game. My nerves are rightfully jangling ahead of tomorrow night.

While Gatland spoke of the respect both teams and their coaches have for each other ahead of this match it was the defining moment when an interviewer asked Stuart Lancaster yesterday "is this the biggest occasion you have ever coached". Lancaster didn't ramble about history or potential, he didn't deflect the games relevance to the future, equally important encounter against the Wallabies.

Lancaster just answered "yes".

The pressure is on.

IMO the outcome of the battle between Jenkins and cole will decode the match. But then as a front row forward I would say that

GavinDragon wrote:IMO the outcome of the battle between Jenkins and cole will decode the match. But then as a front row forward I would say that

It could come down to the referee's interpretation of that battle. For what appear to be exact same occurrences, one ref will ping the LH, another the TH.

GavinDragon wrote:Just looking at this on paper; head to head

Brown vs Williams = Brown
Watson vs North = North
Barritt vs Williams = Williams
Burgess vs Roberts = Roberts
Amos vs May = May
Biggar vs Farrell = Farrell
Davies vs Youngs - Youngs

Faletau vs Vunipola = two different type of players. It depends what you want from your 8
Warburton vs Robshaw = Warburton
Lydiate vs Wood = Wood (Wood is more of an all rounder)
Jones vs Lawes = Jones
Davies vs Parling = Parling
Francis vs Cole = Francis (Cole's scrummaging has left alot to be desired in previous games)
Baldwin vs Youngs = Baldwin (youngs throwing can be suspect at key times - think NZ a year or two back
Jenkins vs Marler = Marler (again Jenkin's scrummaging, particularly in this fixture, has not been good enough)

I make that Wales 7 - 8 England in the head to head, although all subjective. Shows just how close this is going to be!

Agree with most of that. I think Watson may get the better of North, but Biggar probably better than Youngs.
Damnit it's close!

GavinDragon wrote:IMO the outcome of the battle between Jenkins and cole will decode the match. But then as a front row forward I would say that

Well I would say the replacement front rows will be as important if not more & that is definitely advantage England.

nobbled wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:Just looking at this on paper; head to head

Brown vs Williams = Brown
Watson vs North = North
Barritt vs Williams = Williams
Burgess vs Roberts = Roberts
Amos vs May = May
Biggar vs Farrell = Farrell
Davies vs Youngs - Youngs

Faletau vs Vunipola = two different type of players. It depends what you want from your 8
Warburton vs Robshaw = Warburton
Lydiate vs Wood = Wood (Wood is more of an all rounder)
Jones vs Lawes = Jones
Davies vs Parling = Parling
Francis vs Cole = Francis (Cole's scrummaging has left alot to be desired in previous games)
Baldwin vs Youngs = Baldwin (youngs throwing can be suspect at key times - think NZ a year or two back
Jenkins vs Marler = Marler (again Jenkin's scrummaging, particularly in this fixture, has not been good enough)

I make that Wales 7 - 8 England in the head to head, although all subjective. Shows just how close this is going to be!

Agree with most of that. I think Watson may get the better of North, but Biggar probably better than Youngs.
Damnit it's close!

Also won't Burgess be against Williams not Roberts?

Burgess will bet at 12.

Oh and Biggar not opposing Youngs

And Biggar will be against Farrell or Davies against Youngs.

From the selection Lancaster has made I assume the game plan is to stifle Wales and tackle them into the ground for 60 minutes then let the "superior" replacements win the game in the last 20.

Could work provided If Wales can be kept at bay for that long. Big blydi if though!

Can't wait!

Actually I think Bomber hopes the midfield will neutralise any Welsh front foot ball and force them into kicking to our back 3 with room to counterattack.

Have to say they may get more ball from the opposition than our centres.

LondonTiger wrote:Actually I think Bomber hopes the midfield will neutralise any Welsh front foot ball and force them into kicking to our back 3 with room to counterattack.

Have to say they may get more ball from the opposition than our centres.

Almost a certainty!

nobbled wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Actually I think Bomber hopes the midfield will neutralise any Welsh front foot ball and force them into kicking to our back 3 with room to counterattack.

Have to say they may get more ball from the opposition than our centres.

Almost a certainty!

Plus + 1. This thought had occurred to me re: our wingers outside THOSE centres.

Nice little peach from Slammin' Sam...!

"Who's that?"


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/whos-that-what-englands-sam-10127430

Nice one Sam, I don't think the game needs much for the Welsh team to get their teeth in to but that is a beauty...

Have you read that story maes? If you had it Burgess dealt with it nicely?

"Burgess’ selection has been questioned given his inexperience at Test level since switching from rugby union, but he countered “It’s their opinion. I believe in myself. I feel like I’ve got the respect of my team-mates and the staff here. Those are the opinions that really count to me"

Says it all for me, Wales Online doesn't know it's ar$e from its elbow...............





or should that be Union from League

How is not knowing your opposite number at a press conference for the most anticipated game so far at this RWC dealing with anything...!

I thought that Burgess biggest asset was his big game profile, his experience of the big occasion...?

So it is ok for Scott Williams to belittle Burgess, but when burgess tries to josh back it is bad?

Also worth pointing out, again, that Burgess is opposite Roberts.

maestegmafia wrote:How is not knowing your opposite number at a press conference for the most anticipated game so far at this RWC dealing with anything...!

I thought that Burgess biggest asset was his big game profile, his experience of the big occasion...?

So you haven't really read and understood then?

maestegmafia wrote:How is not knowing your opposite number at a press conference for the most anticipated game so far at this RWC dealing with anything...!

I thought that Burgess biggest asset was his big game profile, his experience of the big occasion...?

Sam did know his opposite number, Roberts, it would appear that Williams doesn't as it will be Barritt. Seems like both Wales Online and Williams suffer from the same problem.

IF, and that's a big IF, Burgess has a cracker on Saturday,.

Would that sway peoples minds that he should be a centre not a flanker? Or would people still say he is a 6 with a good offloading game.

id love to know where Burgess himself actually wants to play.

GeordieFalcon wrote:
id love to know where Burgess himself actually wants to play.

Sydney?

Yeah that's what I was thinking Rodders.....

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:How is not knowing your opposite number at a press conference for the most anticipated game so far at this RWC dealing with anything...!

I thought that Burgess biggest asset was his big game profile, his experience of the big occasion...?

Sam did know his opposite number, Roberts, it would appear that Williams doesn't as it will be Barritt. Seems like both Wales Online and Williams suffer from the same problem.

This is something of nothing. Williams knew who was 12 and 13, he spoke about both centres and said that Joseph would be harder to face defensively because of his footwork (fair enough) and wasn't derogatory towards anybody. I don't read anything into what Burgess said either. Just Wales Online click baiting again, much like they were when they printed a misleading headline quoting Gatland as only saying "we are going to smash Sam Burgess".

Wales Online lol, makes DM seem limply moderate by comparison.

GeordieFalcon wrote:IF, and that's a big IF, Burgess has a cracker on Saturday,.

Would that sway peoples minds that he should be a centre not a flanker? Or would people still say he is a 6 with a good offloading game.

id love to know where Burgess himself actually wants to play.

6. Mike Ford said he saw him as a 6 from the outset. Burgess has said that he enjoys playing 6 because he can get more involved. I think even Lancaster has only said that they are looking at him as a 12 for now because he doesn't have a lineout game.

But the point is that the England coaches value his attacking and defensive qualities and are willing to play him in a different position to get him in the squad. It's a risk, but it if it pays off it could have a huge impact. If it doesn't it could have a huge impact in the other direction.

It isn't an uncommon thing with larger league converts - remember Andy Farrell played both 6 and 12 when he converted, though only 12 for England.

Got to be careful making a joke to the media because of course they can make it seem like it's not a joke. The worst example of this was Andy Murray's joke to Tim Henman about anyone but England before a big football tournament. I think it hurt Murray's reputation as it portrayed him as an avid supporter of Braveheart.

To be honest if I was the media and wanted to stoke up tension and add fuel on the fire there are easier ways to do it than accuse Burgess of disrespecting Scott Williams.

I think both teams know it's going to be a tough game. No room for complacency. I do believe that England will win but they'll need to tighten up the key areas like discipline,set piece and lineout.

I agree Pourfour....he could have a huge influence from 6.

beshocked wrote:Got to be careful making a joke to the media because of course they can make it seem like it's not a joke. The worst example of this was Andy Murray's joke to Tim Henman about anyone but England before a big football tournament. I think it hurt Murray's reputation as it portrayed him as an avid supporter of Braveheart.

To be honest if I was the media and wanted to stoke up tension and add fuel on the fire there are easier ways to do it than accuse Burgess of disrespecting Scott Williams.

I think both teams know it's going to be a tough game. No room for complacency. I do believe that England will win but they'll need to tighten up the key areas like discipline,set piece and lineout.

Pretty much everything then?

when did the lineout stop being a set-piece?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:IMO the outcome of the battle between Jenkins and cole will decode the match. But then as a front row forward I would say that

Well I would say the replacement front rows will be as important if not more & that is definitely advantage England.

Is Mako on the bench? Lee is a far better scrummager. However, Keiron Brookes, I rate highly. If Cole gets the better of Jenkins and then Brookes comes on I will be very worried!

maestegmafia wrote:Nice little peach from Slammin' Sam...!

"Who's that?"


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/whos-that-what-englands-sam-10127430

Nice one Sam, I don't think the game needs much for the Welsh team to get their teeth in to but that is a beauty...

and Williams is the type of character to not let that go unnoticed!

Ultimately Burgess will settle in at 6 / 8. Hasn't yet got the base of scrum skills needed for 8, and as others have alluded to he isn't (yet?) a good enough line-out option to play 6 for England (given that Morgan / Billy V aren't lineout operators and Robshaw is only used occasionally, so Wood's line-out work is a big part of the job).

For this game, with Roberts as his direct opponent, I think Burgess's attributes will be useful at 12, but I do think he lacks a little pace and footwork for it to be his long term position (and also he has said he likes to be involved in the game more, as happens in the back row). I don't want to see him ever at 13 though - too easily beaten on the outside by a small 13 with pace.

I work in Bristol, already getting a load of abuse from guys who, year round, don't watch the bloody game!

Bring it on!

Be honest guys, who else hadn't heard of Scott Williams?

GavinDragon wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Nice little peach from Slammin' Sam...!

"Who's that?"


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/whos-that-what-englands-sam-10127430

Nice one Sam, I don't think the game needs much for the Welsh team to get their teeth in to but that is a beauty...

and Williams is the type of character to not let that go unnoticed!

If he falls for that spin then you might as well make him watch braveheart and tell him william wallace was Welsh to build him up. He'd buy it if he bought the above.

Can you imagine it

Alun Wyn gathers the team pre game... "right, those English bast**ds, they stole your coal, raped your woman, colonised your land to this day"..... North, Cuthbert, Francis & Warburton stand there and say... "um, yeah we did didn't we".

Not sure if that would work somehow....

dummy_half wrote:Ultimately Burgess will settle in at 6 / 8. Hasn't yet got the base of scrum skills needed for 8, and as others have alluded to he isn't (yet?) a good enough line-out option to play 6 for England (given that Morgan / Billy V aren't lineout operators and Robshaw is only used occasionally, so Wood's line-out work is a big part of the job).

For this game, with Roberts as his direct opponent, I think Burgess's attributes will be useful at 12, but I do think he lacks a little pace and footwork for it to be his long term position (and also he has said he likes to be involved in the game more, as happens in the back row). I don't want to see him ever at 13 though - too easily beaten on the outside by a small 13 with pace.

I disagree. His main quality is his size and power. As a forward he's nothing special in that regard. I can't see past Billy V or Morgan as England's number 8 going forward, and I think Itoje will take the England 6 jersey longer term.

I think Lancaster is right. Burgess should focus on staying at 12 and becoming the focal point of the England attack and defence. With a canny operator like Ford and one of Joseph or Tuilagi at 13, England could really develop into something special. I think this WC is probably a bit too soon for Burgess, but longer term I think he's a real prospect for the England backline.

GavinDragon wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:IMO the outcome of the battle between Jenkins and cole will decode the match. But then as a front row forward I would say that

Well I would say the replacement front rows will be as important if not more & that is definitely advantage England.

Is Mako on the bench? Lee is a far better scrummager. However, Keiron Brookes, I rate highly. If Cole gets the better of Jenkins and then Brookes comes on I will be very worried!

Lee a far better scrummager than Mako? Disagree. Mako is more experienced and has faced higher class opposition than Lee, not always had his own way but Mako is underrated in the scrum.

Though saying that Mako's main strength is his carrying and high tackle count. As an impact sub he'll be able to cause more problems than Lee from the bench. Mako's impact against Fiji was positive. Him and his brother Billy helped England get on the front foot.

I don't think there's actually a more overrated Welsh player than Samson Lee. Welshmen say how great Samson Lee is but he got a good ol' kicking by Marler this season. Still a largely unproven TH whose been given deity status because Wales' TH strength in depth is so poor (hence why an Englishman is starting for Wales).

If Wales had a prime Jenkins and Jones I would be very worried but Jenkins hasn't as of yet found his previous form, Francis is inexperienced,Lee isn't as good as Welsh fans think.

Marler,Youngs and Cole should fancy their chances.

GavinDragon wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Nice little peach from Slammin' Sam...!

"Who's that?"


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/whos-that-what-englands-sam-10127430

Nice one Sam, I don't think the game needs much for the Welsh team to get their teeth in to but that is a beauty...

and Williams is the type of character to not let that go unnoticed!

I well imagine prior to reading that he wasnt that fussed about the game and had been considering not turning up at all. Like most Welsh chaps hes the sort of small minded petty individual who is only motivated by the need to respond to others petty barbs (intentional or imagined) ...is that what you are trying to say? Personally Id think it would be a touch unfair and reductive and its absolutely not the sort of thing I would want to say atbout Mr Williams or the Welsh people in general..

fa0019 wrote:

If he falls for that spin then you might as well make him watch braveheart and tell him william wallace was Welsh to build him up. He'd buy it if he bought the above.

Can you imagine it

They took our sheep but they'll never take our

funnyExiledScot wrote:

dummy_half wrote:Ultimately Burgess will settle in at 6 / 8. Hasn't yet got the base of scrum skills needed for 8, and as others have alluded to he isn't (yet?) a good enough line-out option to play 6 for England (given that Morgan / Billy V aren't lineout operators and Robshaw is only used occasionally, so Wood's line-out work is a big part of the job).

For this game, with Roberts as his direct opponent, I think Burgess's attributes will be useful at 12, but I do think he lacks a little pace and footwork for it to be his long term position (and also he has said he likes to be involved in the game more, as happens in the back row). I don't want to see him ever at 13 though - too easily beaten on the outside by a small 13 with pace.

I disagree. His main quality is his size and power. As a forward he's nothing special in that regard. I can't see past Billy V or Morgan as England's number 8 going forward, and I think Itoje will take the England 6 jersey longer term.

I think Lancaster is right. Burgess should focus on staying at 12 and becoming the focal point of the England attack and defence. With a canny operator like Ford and one of Joseph or Tuilagi at 13, England could really develop into something special. I think this WC is probably a bit too soon for Burgess, but longer term I think he's a real prospect for the England backline.

He was very average for Bath at 12 this season the moment he moved to 6 he was a different proposition altogther. 6 brings out and focuses on his best strengths and he was great being constantly involved at the breakdown. He'll continue there next season and will be pushing for a starting spot I have no doubt. Still think Itoje is going to be battling it out at lock but we have some great options along with Wood and even Haskell though I think he'll drop away post wc.

And presumably England have a lack of depth at 13, 8 and 1. So swings and roundabouts.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

He was very average for Bath at 12 this season the moment he moved to 6 he was a different proposition altogther. 6 brings out and focuses on his best strengths and he was great being constantly involved at the breakdown. He'll continue there next season and will be pushing for a starting spot I have no doubt. Still think Itoje is going to be battling it out at lock but we have some great options along with Wood and even Haskell though I think he'll drop away post wc.

I agree 7.5

at 6 he can use his carrying and defence to his max and he will learn the lineout. I also agree Itoje will be a lock and Haskell should be gone from the squad post WC.

I have tried to stay off this thread, I am too nervous to even debate it, but I must say there is a lot of chest thumping coming from our English members.

What I will say is this, even though England might be slight favourites, this game is a lot closer than than you might like to think. Now that I have seen the England side to start tomorrow night, I am a little more confident than I was at the start of the week.

If we can control our emotions, and we do not try and smash the opposition, if we can just stay focused and in control, we might just, do it.

Londontiger fair point.

I guess I accidentally put it twice to emphasise how important the lineout is!

Jimpy

Well no there's other stuff too like the defence,kicking etc but the defence was mostly pretty good vs Fiji bar a certain line break.....

It wasn't all bad against Fiji but it's important that the forwards give B.Youngs a good platform because that's what he feeds off. A stuttering performance from the forwards will lead to B.Youngs faltering which will have a knock on effect.

LordDowlais wrote:I have tried to stay off this thread, I am too nervous to even debate it, but I must say there is a lot of chest thumping coming from our English members.

What I will say is this, even though England might be slight favourites, this game is a lot closer than than you might like to think. Now that I have seen the England side to start tomorrow night, I am a little more confident than I was at the start of the week.

If we can control our emotions, and we do not try and smash the opposition, if we can just stay focused and in control, we might just, do it.

Not sure about that...most are saying its a huge close game.