England v Wales, 26 September

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ENGLAND v WALES
26 September 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

126 Played 126
58 Won 56
12 Drawn 12
56 Lost 58
1,596 Points 1,456

B. Recent Form

6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England

9 March 2014
Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England

16 March 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales

25 February 2012
Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales

13 August 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales

6 August 2011
Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England

4 February 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 26 to England

6 February 2010
Twickenham, London
30 – 17 to England

14 February 2009
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 15 to Wales

2 February 2008
Twickenham, London
19 – 26 to Wales

C. Teams

ENGLAND

[tbc]

WALES

[tbc]

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/scott-who-sam-burgess-stokes-tensions-ahead-of-englandwales-with-jibe-at-williams-31555198.html

It's ironic because a year ago I had no idea who Sam Burgess was.

Notch wrote:http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/scott-who-sam-burgess-stokes-tensions-ahead-of-englandwales-with-jibe-at-williams-31555198.html

It's ironic because a year ago I had no idea who Sam Burgess was.

That's quite a misleading headline, given Burgess was simply responding to a journalist asking what he thought of Scott Williams saying he would rather face Burgess than Joseph.

Nonetheless, I can fairly confidently say that Burgess is a bigger name in the rugby world than Scott Williams. (Note "bigger name", not "better player").

Notch wrote:http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/scott-who-sam-burgess-stokes-tensions-ahead-of-englandwales-with-jibe-at-williams-31555198.html

It's ironic because a year ago I had no idea who Sam Burgess was.

First they stole your coal then it was your woman (yikes) and everywhere you go in the world they say "oh you're English aren't you"... and now they don't even botherto acknowledge who you are. Son of Carling no doubt!!!!!!!

Notch wrote:http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/scott-who-sam-burgess-stokes-tensions-ahead-of-englandwales-with-jibe-at-williams-31555198.html

It's ironic because a year ago I had no idea who Sam Burgess was.

Talk about a reporter spinning what was actually said.

well, there's no bigger game for burgess than coming into the starting XV against Wales in RWC. he certainly seems like hes the man for the big occasions. well will find out on Saturday!

personally I think hes going to have a big game. against a flat defensive line, wriggling your upperbody through a gap and making an offload could be the difference between winning and losing, if our wingers or brown anticipate the offload and hit support lines at speed.

In terms of pool games I don't think I've seen one with so much needle since SA vs ENG in 2003.

LondonTiger wrote:

Notch wrote:http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-cup/scott-who-sam-burgess-stokes-tensions-ahead-of-englandwales-with-jibe-at-williams-31555198.html

It's ironic because a year ago I had no idea who Sam Burgess was.

Talk about a reporter spinning what was actually said.

Well obviously they are the people who are really trying to stoke tension before this fixture, as ever.

Well without 2 well know Welsh expat posters (I think one is banned?) its actually staying pretty well mannered here at the moment

fa0019 wrote:In terms of pool games I don't think I've seen one with so much needle since SA vs ENG in 2003.

Really?

Compared to most Eng/Wales games (or Ireland/Wales to be fair) the build up to this one has been positively polite.

LondonTiger wrote:

fa0019 wrote:In terms of pool games I don't think I've seen one with so much needle since SA vs ENG in 2003.

Really?

Compared to most Eng/Wales games (or Ireland/Wales to be fair) the build up to this one has been positively polite.

ah not here... the media, the build up elsewhere etc (v2 seems a bit of a love in these days)

Someone sent me a telegraph article on the world's best drop goals in RWC history... ended up just a taking the mickey article on some poor welsh winger in the early 90s.

lostinwales wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

beshocked wrote:lostinwales hope you're right.

If Marler,Youngs and Cole get their bloody act together they should be able to take Jenkins,Baldwin and Francis to the cleaners.

Francis has come on leaps and bounds since he was uni grad concentrating on his mechanical engineering degree whilst playing for Doncaster. He has just turned 23 but has three season and seventy games at a high level, over 136kg, technically sound not sure if he was player of the year for The Chiefs but he played over 25 games and has been very good.

Don't think he will run out of steam on Saturday.  

If both front rows perform to their best I just can't see England getting much change out of it.

I know he has had a good rep in the AP but the pace of an international will be significantly higher than he is used to and that is a lot of weight to carry. If he had a few more caps under his belt then you'd have more confidence of him lasting but he does not. very very few props drop into the international scene and play well from day one. Cole is probably the last one who did that for England. Marler was very average when he started internationals and is very good now, and that is over 2 seasons and is still a quite remarkable rate of  improvement.

I feel similarly about Samson Lee. He's there because he's better than the alternatives but he is still 'average' as an international now. With time (and luck with injuries) he should turn into a good international prop, but it does take time.

Francis will just about last one half.

Jenkins (and Jarvis on the bench) concerns me!

quinsforever wrote:well, there's no bigger game for burgess than coming into the starting XV against Wales in RWC. he certainly seems like hes the man for the big occasions. well will find out on Saturday!

personally I think hes going to have a big game. against a flat defensive line, wriggling your upperbody through a gap and making an offload could be the difference between winning and losing, if our wingers or brown anticipate the offload and hit support lines at speed.

Its a funny old process. You have a complete Union novice playing (by most of our standards) out of position for his 2nd start in one of the biggest games for his country in recent history, against one of the most decorated and experienced centers of this generation. The media are all over him. You'd expect there to be some indication that he is under pressure. And he just seems to be handling everything effortlessly. I might just be starting to buy the hype...

lostinwales wrote:
Its a funny old process. You have a complete Union novice playing (by most of our standards) out of position for his 2nd start in one of the biggest games for his country in recent history, against one of the most decorated and experienced centers of this generation. The media are all over him. You'd expect there to be some indication that he is under pressure. And he just seems to be handling everything effortlessly. I might just be starting to buy the hype...

How young was he when he moved to NRL? 21 I think, and the media circus that follows them round in Aus will have been ample preparation.

lostinwales I think that what Burgess has in his favour is his size.

Now I am sure if Roberts was running at a small guy like Eastmond there might be the danger that Roberts would flatten him or Ford for that matter.

Roberts will do have to do something not in his nature, instead of trying to go through Burgess he'll have to try and go round him or at least put Scott Williams through a gap Burgess should be defending.

LondonTiger wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:
Francis has come on leaps and bounds since he was uni grad concentrating on his mechanical engineering degree whilst playing for Doncaster. He has just turned 23 but has three season and seventy games at a high level, over 136kg, technically sound not sure if he was player of the year for The Chiefs but he played over 25 games and has been very good.

Don't think he will run out of steam on Saturday.  

If both front rows perform to their best I just can't see England getting much change out of it.

57 starts including Doncaster and London Scottish for the Yorkie Lad. (also being pedantic it was 25 games including bench for Exeter not over 25). He generally is pulled on the 55 minute mark but did last the full 80 against Wasps. He may need to do the same again.

True he is as English as they come, qualified through a grandparent I believe!, such is the crazy qualification laws, but they are what they are.

You seem to think Doncaster in Div 1 and London Scottish is not a high level, well I can tell you it is not a bad level at all.

That's me been given duff information by my guys down the south west I was told had played 25 games mostly as first choice by end of the 2014/15 season, he has since then played a number of pre-season warm ups, ok if you want to be pedantic    they were not AP official games. Most props will get hauled off around the 50 min mark (player management and all that!), and he is still a young lad learning his trade and no coach will risk burn-out playing a full 80 mins for 25-30 games a season. I think Mr Gatland has got him there specifically to do a job, after watching the English front five performance against Fiji, he is facing off against a guy who is slightly shorter and three stone lighter. I think you will see Samson Lee (if he is not carrying an injury coming on around 50-55 mins.

That is most likely what is going to happen, but as stated I think he'll be suffering a lot earlier than 50 minutes and as for Lee if he was in decent shape he's be starting.

Of course AWJ was carrying an injury too...

All I will say is if we have to rely on that bench (Tipuric and Charteris aside) to see out or even win us the watch then god help. WTF is Jarvis doing covering loosehead beggars belief.

bedfordwelsh wrote:WTF is Jarvis doing covering loosehead beggars belief.

James is injured...

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:WTF is Jarvis doing covering loosehead beggars belief.

James is injured...

I gathered that and am guessing that James failed a late fitness test which didn't allow them to call up an actual loosehead so now we have to hope our 3rd choice tighthead can cover it. Great planning, everyone was worried about having only 2 hookers where I said all along he should have taken 6 props.

I love it when they put things in 'these'. Looks like a quote (and some people take them as such) but actually mean nothing.

lostinwales wrote:That is most likely what is going to happen, but as stated I think he'll be suffering a lot earlier than 50 minutes and as for Lee if he was in decent shape he's be starting.

Of course AWJ was carrying an injury too...

He has been on Gatlands radar all year, would have been in the Wales 6N squad but for a back injury. He has rapidly became first choice TH at Exeter having played 25 matches and I believe only 4 from the bench and was an integral player in taking them to 5th place in the AP on the same point as the 3rd/4th place team. He is a big boy by nature, and not out of shape. He will be suffering no more than Marler or Cole

BBC wrote:Wales prop Tomas Francis says the England pack will hold few fears if he is picked to start on Saturday.
With first-choice tight-head Samson Lee struggling with a calf injury, Francis could be set to win his fourth cap in the crunch Pool A game at Twickenham.
But the Exeter Chiefs player, 23, has regularly faced the England front-row at club level in the Aviva Premiership.

But I like the boys attitude, grounded but confident;

BBC wrote:"I have played against all of them pretty much, and I know what they can bring," Francis said.
"We have got plenty to match them and even take them on I think.
"I relish it, really. We know what's coming, and we are looking forward to it,"

He will do ok!

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm a right silly poo poo.

Yeah i see what you mean

Gareth Davies starting at 9 can only be a positive for Wales.

bedfordwelsh wrote:All I will say is if we have to rely on that bench (Tipuric and Charteris aside) to see out or even win us the watch then god help.  WTF is Jarvis doing covering loosehead beggars belief.

BW, there is quite a groundswell of opinion on our board to play him at L/H, as in the Welsh trial match at the Liberty a year or so ago he showed up very well apparently, I didn't see that game so cannot comment, he is definitely NOT a Regional standard scrummaging T/H, for a T/H he is very good about the field, and IIRC he was a L/H when he joined us a few years ago.

What worries me more about the Welsh front row are the locks. AWJ and Davies are renowned big scrummagers, Lawes and Parling are not.

I think it is a bit disappointed England have selected a centre combination to stop Wales rather than their best attacking combination as they did in the 6 N. If England lose which is more likely Lancaster should go. As a Welsh supporter I was looking forward to an open game but this now looks like a battle I suspect could be a stop start affair.

I hope Lancaster the tinker man may have made a mistake, time will tell.

glamorganalun wrote:I think it is a bit disappointed England have selected a centre combination to stop Wales rather than their best attacking combination as they did in the 6 N. If England lose which is more likely Lancaster should go. As a Welsh supporter I was looking forward to an open game but this now looks like a battle I suspect could be a stop start affair.

I hope Lancaster the tinker man may have made a mistake, time will tell.

I think it would be fair to suggest both teams mindset is more "not to lose" rather than "go all out for a win"...!

MAES,

I agree but Wales have not changed their way of playing since 2008, lancaster does not know his best team is it appears, not the best way to develop a settled team hence their up and down performances.

When has there been an up?

Farrell for Ford makes sense. Injuries have enforced the centre combo.

glamorganalun wrote:MAES,

I agree but Wales have not changed their way of playing since 2008, lancaster does not know his best team is it appears, not the best way to develop a settled team hence their up and down performances.

I agree Gatland has been the more decisive of the two coaches, but I disagree that he has not adjusted his tactics. There have been plenty of changes, through the influence of the selection of different styles of players, Henson in 08, Roberts now, different game. Sam at seven now, Martyn Williams back at the start.

He is selecting fast scrum halves for this game over a more confrontational player like Mike Phillips back in 08.

Halfpenny not being in the Welsh team forces a different game plan. Howley talked about the impact of not being able to rely on penalty kicks from such distance changing the tactical decision making of the half backs game plan.

The changes have been subtle, but they are there.

wayne wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:All I will say is if we have to rely on that bench (Tipuric and Charteris aside) to see out or even win us the watch then god help.  WTF is Jarvis doing covering loosehead beggars belief.

BW, there is quite a groundswell of opinion on our board to play him at L/H, as in the Welsh trial match at the Liberty a year or so ago he showed up very well apparently, I didn't see that game so cannot comment, he is definitely NOT a Regional standard scrummaging T/H, for a T/H he is very good about the field, and IIRC he was a L/H when he joined us a few years ago.

wayne,

I hope to god you are right

Poor old Jarvis is becoming the james Hook of front row selections... He is possible cover for three positions

Thought I was not going to be able to watch this game as it clashed the Super League Play-Offs but remembered that Huddersfield v Leeds is on the Friday so will give it a watch. I expect England will win by 10 or more points although I could be wrong

maestegmafia wrote:Poor old Jarvis is becoming the james Hook of front row selections... He is possible cover for three positions

RL over Union!! Wash your mouth out

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:Poor old Jarvis is becoming the james Hook of front row selections... He is possible cover for three positions

RL over Union!! Wash your mouth out

Ha ha ha...!

Most would make a similar comment on Jarvis covering any front row position...

Wales caught bending the rules about playing/having none world cup players training with the world cup squad. tut, tut,tut,

PM to George Carlin.
George..I suggest you change the thread title to:
"Wales thread, 26 September"

majesticimperialman wrote:Wales caught bending the rules about playing/having none world cup players training with the world cup squad. tut, tut,tut,

As covered earlier its mostly a lot of fuss about not much but having possible replacement props there too is pushing things a bit

England are hoping that Burgess can give a similar style of player to Sonny Bill...with his offloads etc. He's not experienced at this level (yet?) but if he can manage a few carry and offloads he could give England a very useful platform to play off.

Listening to McGeechan talking about it before the NZ game and he made a lot of sense. Especially with Brown and May etc running off his shoulder.

I guess we'll see on Saturday how much influence he can have on the game.

glamorganalun wrote:I think it is a bit disappointed England have selected a centre combination to stop Wales rather than their best attacking combination as they did in the 6 N.

Their best attacking centre is injured, the second best is banned, the third best isnt in the squad

Gooseberry wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:I think it is a bit disappointed England have selected a centre combination to stop Wales rather than their best attacking combination as they did in the 6 N.

Their best attacking centre is injured, the second best is banned, the third best isnt in the squad

How did JJ get banned?

lostinwales wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Wales caught bending the rules about playing/having none world cup players training with the world cup squad. tut, tut,tut,

As covered earlier its mostly a lot of fuss about not much but having possible replacement props there too is pushing things a bit

More like the gutter English press trying to find excuses..

maestegmafia wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Wales caught bending the rules about playing/having none world cup players training with the world cup squad. tut, tut,tut,

As covered earlier its mostly a lot of fuss about not much but having possible replacement props there too is pushing things a bit

More like the gutter English press trying to find excuses..

Welsh rugby press are just as bad. And what are they trying to find excuses for exactly?

maestegmafia wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Wales caught bending the rules about playing/having none world cup players training with the world cup squad. tut, tut,tut,

As covered earlier its mostly a lot of fuss about not much but having possible replacement props there too is pushing things a bit

More like the gutter English press trying to find excuses..

Well there wouldn't be a story if someone in Gatland's camp had bothered to read the rules

It was first reported in Wales online. But let's not let facts get in the way eh maes

Wales Online love a good opposition bashing story (especially if it is England or Ireland or a Southern Hemisphere team) but if this is not available they run a 'Gatland peed over Wales team bus toilet seat' just to make up a few pages

I can only imagine the meltdown had other nations of note overlooked some important rules paper-work in the lead in.

Someone said earlier that maybe it was a crafty (yet another one) Gat plan to once again take pressure off his players before an important game, and at the same time create his traditional rallying call of "The world's against us, boys, let's marmalise the lot of them!"

SecretFly wrote:I can only imagine the meltdown had other nations of note overlooked some important rules paper-work in the lead in.

Someone said earlier that maybe it was a crafty (yet another one) Gat plan to once again take pressure off his players before an important game, and at the same time create his traditional rallying call of "The world's against us, boys, let's marmalise the lot of them!"

Think that was me, I'm still not convinced it isn't!

Could genuinely be. I wouldn't put anything past that grey fox Gats.

You have to give him credit, even when he cocks up people give him credit for playing mind games, not a bad place to be in!!