England v Wales, 26 September

by **George Carlin** Sun Sep 20, 2015 6:52 am

First topic message reminder :

England v Wales, 26 September - Page 10 Englan10

England v Wales, 26 September - Page 10 Wales_11

ENGLAND v WALES
26 September 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

126 Played 126
58 Won 56
12 Drawn 12
56 Lost 58
1,596 Points 1,456

B. Recent Form

6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England

9 March 2014
Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England

16 March 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales

25 February 2012
Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales

13 August 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales

6 August 2011
Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England

4 February 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 26 to England

6 February 2010
Twickenham, London
30 – 17 to England

14 February 2009
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 15 to Wales

2 February 2008
Twickenham, London
19 – 26 to Wales

C. Teams

ENGLAND
England v Wales, 26 September - Page 10 Emily_10

England v Wales, 26 September - Page 10 Emily_10

[tbc]

WALES
England v Wales, 26 September - Page 10 Perdit10

[tbc]

by Geordie Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:33 am

I have no worries about the back line...even then new midfield will be fine.

Its upfront that im worried as I have been for quite some time.

The pack needs to put a monster performance in...to put a marker down to the rest of the so called contenders and to the England fans.

by BamBam Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:34 am

beshocked wrote:Bambam innocent till proven guilty, still shooting from the hip aren't you...

Edited for the one man in Britain who doesn't think Saracens cheated

BamBam wrote:Oh great, a Saracens game plan. Be interesting to see how that works minus allegedly cheating the salary cap so we automatically don't have an advantage in playing personnel

by Geordie Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:34 am

TightHEAD wrote:You just know Scott Williams is going to be ~~Man of the~~ smashed all Match.

by Jimpy Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:35 am

BamBam wrote:Oh great, a Saracens game plan. Be interesting to see how that works minus allegedly cheating the salary cap so we automatically don't have an advantage in playing personnel

What has that got to do with this match?

by BamBam Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:37 am

Nothing, was just responding to beshocked assertion that we're following a Sarries game plan

by TightHEAD Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:37 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:You just know Scott Williams is going to be ~~Man of the~~ smashed all Match.

He'll run rings round Sloppy Sam

by fa0019 Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:38 am

Barritt is a smart operator and solid tackler. he won't be fooled easy and I don't think Scott Williams has the game to run riot. Amos does however. Liam Williams does however.

But for Amos and Williams to do that they need setting up, they need a pack on the roll. Amos almost certainly won't be picked, neither will tipuric to exploit temporary holes in defence.

by BamBam Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:39 am

Surely one of Amos/Williams is the starting full back?

by Scottrf Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:39 am

TightHEAD wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:You just know Scott Williams is going to be ~~Man of the~~ smashed all Match.

He'll run rings round Sloppy Sam

Hopefully Burgess isn't the only guy in our defensive line then.

by Guest Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:40 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:I just know Burgess is. Anything he does will be blown out of proportion and I can't see our backline worrying him one bit either.

Can you translate that for me Risca

You've lost me, sorry.

by Geordie Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:41 am

TightHEAD wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:You just know Scott Williams is going to be ~~Man of the~~ smashed all Match.

He'll run rings round Sloppy Sam

And straight in to Farrell and Barritt.....

by offload Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:41 am

fa0019 wrote:Roberts vs Burgess... no contest and then what do Wales do?

Really?

One of the best 12's in world rugby, 6ft 4' 17 and a half stone, 70 caps and a British & Irish lion v a rugby union novice who might make a good back row.

An encounter to look forward to for sure, but "no contest" - surely not.

by lostinwales Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:42 am

Risca Rev wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:I just know Burgess is going to be man of the match. Anything he does will be blown out of proportion and I can't see our backline worrying him one bit either.

Can you translate that for me Risca

You've lost me, sorry.

I think that is the required explanation

by Guest Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:44 am

It was fairly obvious what I was on about. The post was only two above mine.

by lostinwales Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:44 am

offload wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Roberts vs Burgess... no contest and then what do Wales do?

Really?

One of the best 12's in world rugby, 6ft 4' 17 and a half stone, 70 caps and a British & Irish lion v a rugby union novice who might make a good back row.

An encounter to look forward to for sure, but "no contest" - surely not.

The size of Roberts has nothing to do with it as he is smaller than Burgess and these days probably less mobile too.

by Geordie Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:44 am

offload wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Roberts vs Burgess... no contest and then what do Wales do?

Really?

One of the best 12's in world rugby, 6ft 4' 17 and a half stone, 70 caps and a British & Irish lion v a rugby union novice who might make a good back row.

An encounter to look forward to for sure, but "no contest" - surely not.

I think size pretty much cancels out in this one...

Then the question is...how much does extensive elite Rugby League experience help in rugby union. Guess we'll find out soon enough.

by lostinwales Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:45 am

Risca Rev wrote:It was fairly obvious what I was on about. The post was only two above mine.

That's what I thought too..

by Mad for Chelsea Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:45 am

Farrell and Burgess both did well when they came on on Friday to be fair. Farrell actually looked more dangerous than Ford, and it was his offload which led to the third try, while Burgess carried well and made a couple of telling offloads too. People forget how well Farrell got the backline running in the 2014 6N. Having said that, I do feel we could do with a more creative 13 outside those two, and not sure Barritt's the answer. I appreciate what Barritt does, and he's done a job at 13 before, but every time it was outside a more playmaking 12 (12T or Eastmond).

I also wonder if all this noise is coming from the fact that it's those three who reportedly trained together yesterday, does that mean they're a certainty to start? Possibly not, A. Farrell yesterday seemed to imply there was still a chance Joseph could be fit...

by offload Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:48 am

lostinwales wrote:
offload wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Roberts vs Burgess... no contest and then what do Wales do?

Really?

One of the best 12's in world rugby, 6ft 4' 17 and a half stone, 70 caps and a British & Irish lion v a rugby union novice who might make a good back row.

An encounter to look forward to for sure, but "no contest" - surely not.

The size of Roberts has nothing to do with it as he is smaller than Burgess and these days probably less mobile too.

Yes of course, being 28 now he's really slowed down and all that experience is clearly over rated. How foolish of me, Burgess will have a field day.

by Scottrf Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:50 am

Honestly if someone said to me Roberts vs Burgess no contest, I'd assume they meant the other way.

by BamBam Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:51 am

Its definitely not a no contest, but I wouldn't fancy Roberts chances if he tries to run through him. But that experience will mean that he won't be doing that, I'm fairly sure of that

by lostinwales Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:55 am

BamBam wrote:Its definitely not a no contest, but I wouldn't fancy Roberts chances if he tries to run through him. But that experience will mean that he won't be doing that, I'm fairly sure of that

The problem I have always had with Roberts (and to be honest this may well be down to his coach) is that he is a very smart guy yet he seems to show no ability to adapt his game whatsoever

by BamBam Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:56 am

I think that is almost certainly the case LIW

by Jimpy Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:56 am

BamBam wrote:Its definitely not a no contest, but I wouldn't fancy Roberts chances if he tries to run through him. But that experience will mean that he won't be doing that, I'm fairly sure of that

On the contrary, Wales's gameplan relies almost exclusively on it.

by Gooseberry Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:57 am

Its like Martin Johnson never got that bullet in the back of the head really isnt it.

Given Wales are unlikley to even have any centers fit to face Burgess I dont think we need to worry too much about anyone running rings round/through him.

by fa0019 Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:00 am

Roberts is not the best 12 in world rugby. I'd say De Allende and Nonu are way superior, especially Nonu.

And whilst Burgess does not have the positioning/union know how as Roberts, in the collisions where Roberts is carrying only one will be victorious. That's Burgess. Roberts won't dance, he will take it in. But you're taking it in to one of the biggest tacklers in the game. I read Jonathan Davies even saying so and Jiffy hardly ever looks down a welsh players chances.

Its guile and smart moves which will beat Burgess. Amos for instance, Tipuric exploiting space....

but I doubt Gatland will play either.

by BamBam Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:00 am

Jimpy wrote:
BamBam wrote:Its definitely not a no contest, but I wouldn't fancy Roberts chances if he tries to run through him. But that experience will mean that he won't be doing that, I'm fairly sure of that

On the contrary, Wales's gameplan relies almost exclusively on it.

I hope you're right Jimpy, no disrespect to Roberts, but if he tries to take Burgess on physically he's lost the plot. Or more likely Gatland has

by funnyExiledScot Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:01 am

All the planning and preparation that Lancaster has done, and he finds himself touting the possibility of a Farrell/Burgess/Barritt midfield for the biggest match of the group stages.

It just feels completely cobbled together.

by SecretFly Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:02 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
offload wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Roberts vs Burgess... no contest and then what do Wales do?

Really?

One of the best 12's in world rugby, 6ft 4' 17 and a half stone, 70 caps and a British & Irish lion v a rugby union novice who might make a good back row.

An encounter to look forward to for sure, but "no contest" - surely not.

I think size pretty much cancels out in this one...

Then the question is...how much does extensive elite Rugby League experience help in rugby union. Guess we'll find out soon enough.

Let's also think of the extensive elite Ruby Union experience of Roberts. This guy has just about seen it all and done it all at this level in Union. Gatland and coaching co will have ripped into the dossier on Burgess and fed it page by page to Roberts and co. They'll know his vulnerabilities. Will he have experience enough to truly exploit theirs?

It seems to me like Lancaster might be about to try a Garryowen classic of an Irish kind on the Welsh boys now that their players have done the oft repeated American football research on the aerial stuff, and it seems to be paying some dividends on evidence. So perhaps Lancaster is planning a bypass and turning system of Wale's tanks added to the speed and evasiveness and of May and Brown....

There is plenty for both coaches to be nervous about here.... and a first showing of the 'boring' Tennis version of rugby in this WC?

by offload Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:02 am

lostinwales wrote:
BamBam wrote:Its definitely not a no contest, but I wouldn't fancy Roberts chances if he tries to run through him. But that experience will mean that he won't be doing that, I'm fairly sure of that

The problem I have always had with Roberts (and to be honest this may well be down to his coach) is that he is a very smart guy yet he seems to show no ability to adapt his game whatsoever

I certainly have some sympathy with that view. Unfortunately, Gateland seems to have that effect on many players. I do remember Roberts and BOD establishing a brilliant centre partnership in SA with both power and flair - pity Roberts doesn't play like that more often under Gatland.

by **seanmichaels** Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:04 am

SecretFly wrote: Gatland and coaching co will have ripped into the dossier on Burgess and fed it page by page to Roberts and co. They'll know his vulnerabilities. Will he have experience enough to truly exploit theirs?

Not really a huge dossier on Burgess I would have thought?

by beshocked Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:05 am

fa0019 Nonu was poor vs Argentina though. SBW IMO was so much better when he came on.

Only one game admittedly but still...

It's very difficult to run through any of Farrell,Burgess or Barritt. Chipping the ball over the top, clever kicks to get the oil tankers turning might work though.

I want England to do the same against the Welsh wingers too.

by **rodders** Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:08 am

BamBam wrote:
Jimpy wrote:
BamBam wrote:Its definitely not a no contest, but I wouldn't fancy Roberts chances if he tries to run through him. But that experience will mean that he won't be doing that, I'm fairly sure of that

On the contrary, Wales's gameplan relies almost exclusively on it.

I hope you're right Jimpy, no disrespect to Roberts, but if he tries to take Burgess on physically he's lost the plot. Or more likely Gatland has

Bang on - Everything Wales do is built from the ball off the top off the line out, Phillips to Roberts on the crash ball.

Very rarely does Roberts come off second best but wales do struggle with their attack when he does.

The question is, is Burgess a tactical pick or has Englands hand been forced through injury? If the former it will be interesting to see who comes off best, if the latter Burgess could be exposed defensively.

by Shifty Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:08 am

I'm surprised Farrell appears to have got the nod over Ford, though being Welsh I've no complaints over that selection. I'm happy Dan Bigger is a better player than Farrell, but I think Ford is quality. Farrell seems to have issues with his temperament and consistency. He really needs experienced players outside him, and he won't have that if the rumored line up is confirmed.

Joseph is another one I'm pleased to see missing, I think Wales have parity in the centers now, if not the advantage based on experience. Scott Williams form can be erratic but if he plays well he's more capable than any of the other 3 centers on the field.

Lets hope Ben Morgan is missing as well, I don't want him charging into us, he always seems to play exceptionally well against Wales. Considering all the pressure is on England, and the selections England seem to be picking, I'm quietly confident Wales can do very well on Saturday.

Wales just need a bit of luck with injuries on their side now. I hope Paul James is fit enough to go on the bench. I'll be happy to see either Francis or Sampson Lee at tight head for Wales. Maybe Francis to start with Lee off the bench.

by funnyExiledScot Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:09 am

I don't think I'll ever fully understand why Gatland is so hated as a coach, including by many Welsh fans. He seems to be blamed for everything bad that happens to Welsh rugby, whilst his many achievements tend to be credited to others.

Just look at his record and his achievements, and name a better NH coach in the last decade.

by Gooseberry Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:14 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Just look at his record and his achievements, and name a better NH coach in the last decade.

Rob Howley Whistle

by Mad for Chelsea Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:14 am

rodders wrote:
The question is, is Burgess a tactical pick or has Englands hand been forced through injury? If the former it will be interesting to see who comes off best, if the latter Burgess could be exposed defensively.

I think a bit of both. Lancaster was saying after the Fiji game that we'd been a bit lateral in attack, something which had improved when the bench came on, and Burgess certainly played his part in that. So I suspect he might well have started anyway, though possibly partnering Joseph rather than Barritt...

by SecretFly Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:24 am

seanmichaels wrote:
SecretFly wrote: Gatland and coaching co will have ripped into the dossier on Burgess and fed it page by page to Roberts and co. They'll know his vulnerabilities. Will he have experience enough to truly exploit theirs?

Not really a huge dossier on Burgess I would have thought?

Thus Roberts didn't need a Rennie after eating it...

by Jimpy Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:25 am

There are a couple of England supporters (well, actually, you could have fooled me) on here gloomily predicting a wales win based on this selection. They really need to get a grip.

A loss isn't a forgone conclusion, this is most likely a tactical selection, rather than a selection forced by injury. Creativity in the midfield isn't an issue here. Wales have been getting away with 'Plan A' for years, and this time out, their wingers are unlikely to be a serious threat. With that English muscle at 12 and 13, our wingers can look for work, and they're better man for man than their counterparts (IMO). The Welsh like to knock Burgess's ability, but I suspect deep down, they're extremely worried about the impact he can make (no pun intended). If England get behind the Welsh defence, our wingers can wreak havoc - I suspect Farrell has been brought in for his ability to put his team mates into attacking position Saracensesque. We have a superb full back in Mike Brown - not much will be getting through our defence, that's for sure. Wales struggle to score tries against England of late, this is an English back line guaranteed to perpetuate that trend.

A solid and workmanlike performance will see England home comfortably.

by wales606 Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:29 am

Kicking game is going to decide this.

Biggar vs Farrell

The midfield will be neutralised on both sides, so it will come down to the FH's kicking and the FB's catching. With Halfpenny out and L.Williams rusty (and neither North or Cuthbert are great under the highball) then it might work.

Think Gatland now has to select Amos to act as a second FB.

If the packs are equal enough, it could come down to how the FHs deal with the pressure, and perhaps the rub of the green.

I'm more optimistic for Wales with no Ford or JJ on the pitch.

by wales606 Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:31 am

Also important will be what Gatland has planned. He has been hinting for over a year that Wales are practising things which they are not showing on the pitch, it has all been building up to this and will be interesting to see what changes to Gatlandball have been made.

by beshocked Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:33 am

Shifty I am sorry that's a load of tosh. Farrell needing experienced players.... he's much more experienced than Ford, as for Biggar vs Farrell we'll see. Disagree with Biggar being better than Farrell.

Biggar doesn't have Halfpenny as a safety blanket anymore. Pressure and scrutiny will be on Biggar's whole game including goal kicking. We'll see if he can cut it. No Webb to help Biggar either.

Lots of pressure is on Wales -Wales want to lose to England of course!, also Wales know that they have to start strong because England have been good at closing out games when leading and finishing strongly when behind too. Especially as England will expect to have a stronger bench.

England know they can bring on players that can up the intensity if need be but can Wales do the same?

People have talked about the starters but England will likely have cavalry on the bench which could save the day.

England's bench settled nerves against Fiji, they could do the same on Saturday.

A fresh Ford off the bench could completely turn the screw against a tiring Welsh side.

by TightHEAD Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:34 am

This is all still speculation right?

Maybe SL is playing mind games?

by SecretFly Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:34 am

wales606 wrote:Also important will be what Gatland has planned. He has been hinting for over a year that Wales are practising things which they are not showing on the pitch, it has all been building up to this and will be interesting to see what changes to Gatlandball have been made.

Yet he goads Ireland for showing nothing for two years Wink

by fa0019 Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:36 am

I agree Wales606.

Amos has the skills to hurt England but I don't think he will play. England's 3/4s are very dangerous though, that's their ace card but neutralising their front 5 will put that to bed.... but can they do it?

In the end I don't see England conceding lots of points outside of penalties but I don't see them scoring many either.

by Mad for Chelsea Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:37 am

TightHEAD wrote:This is all still speculation right?

Maybe SL is playing mind games?

It would be amusing if after all this the midfield was announced as Ford Slade Joseph Wink

no doubt we'd get a similar bunch of posters moaning about it being too lightweight. After all plenty were moaning about the lack of impact from the bench vs Fiji, when said bench provided, well, quite a lot of impact Wink

by fa0019 Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:37 am

I can't see Wales springing any surprises on England though. They players he has at his disposal are not versatile enough.

by GunsGerms Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:38 am

Don't see many nerves here. This game could define England/Wales last 4 years of rugby. I'd be bricking it.

by Geordie Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:40 am

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
TightHEAD wrote:This is all still speculation right?

Maybe SL is playing mind games?

It would be amusing if after all this the midfield was announced as Ford Slade Joseph

no doubt we'd get a similar bunch of posters moaning about it being too lightweight. After all plenty were moaning about the lack of impact from the bench vs Fiji, when said bench provided, well, quite a lot of impact

Rumours now that Joseph is out for a considerable time. All the pool games etc.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11884427/Rugby-World-Cup-Jonathan-Joseph-to-miss-whole-pool-stage-for-England.html

by TightHEAD Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:41 am

What will be will be.

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