England vs Australia, 3 October

by **George Carlin** Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:11 am

First topic message reminder :

England vs Australia, 3 October - Page 2 Englan10

England vs Australia, 3 October - Page 2 Wallab10

ENGLAND v AUSTRALIA
3 October 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Romain Poite (France)
Touch judges: George Clancy (Ireland) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

43 Played 43
18 Won 24
1 Drawn 1
24 Lost 18
661 Points 907

B. Recent Form

29 November 2014
Twickenham, London
26 – 17 to England

2 November 2013
Twickenham, London
20 – 13 to England

17 November 2012
Twickenham, London
14 – 20 to Australia

13 November 2010
Twickenham, London
35 – 18 to England

19 June 2010
Telstra Stadium, Sydney
20 – 21 to England

12 June 2010
Subiaco Oval, Perth
27 – 17 to Australia

7 November 2009
Twickenham, London
9 – 18 to Australia

15 November 2008
Twickenham, London
14 – 28 to Australia

6 October 2007
Stade Vélodrome, Marseille, France
10 – 12 to England

C. Teams

ENGLAND
England vs Australia, 3 October - Page 2 Hayley11

England vs Australia, 3 October - Page 2 Hayley11

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 41 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 13 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 14 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 25 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 18 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 33 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 35 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 26 caps)
5. Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 27 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 40 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 41 caps)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 30 caps)

16. Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 25 caps)
18. Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 14 caps)
19. George Kruis (Saracens, 8 caps)
20. Nick Easter (Harlequins, 52 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 25 caps)
22. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
23. Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)

AUSTRALIA
England vs Australia, 3 October - Page 2 Margot11

England vs Australia, 3 October - Page 2 Margot11

1. Scott Sio (12 Tests)
2. Stephen Moore (c) (97 Tests)
3. Sekope Kepu (58 Tests)
4. Kane Douglas (18 Tests)
5. Rob Simmons (55 Tests)
6. Scott Fardy (25 Tests)
7. Michael Hooper (vc) (47 Tests)
8. David Pocock (51 Tests)

9. Will Genia (61 Tests)
10. Bernard Foley (22 Tests)
11. Rob Horne (28 Tests)
12. Matt Giteau (97 Tests)
13. Tevita Kuridrani (25 Tests)
14. Adam Ashley-Cooper (vc) (109 Tests)
15. Israel Folau (34 Tests)

*Reserves to be confirmed

by lostinwales Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:37 pm

Happy for Nick Easter. Gutted we are loosing Billy V who was on fire in his limited game time.

by spaynter Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:44 pm

Easter at least adds to the leadership of the team and has been playing well.

Flexible bench option too.

by majesticimperialman Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:48 pm

That is a good call.

But who would get the call if it was a winger? Chris Ashton may be?

The way this world cup is going with injuries, every team might have to have a second team on stand by. in the future that is.

by Poorfour Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:56 pm

Spaynter, I'd agree with most of the reasoning in your lineup but not with the idea that Wood had a better game than Robshaw. The captain is copping the flak for the decision to kick for touch rather than points, but if you look on ESPN the difference in what they did in the game is massive.

Wood - 3 carries for 9m, 3 tackles, 2 penalties conceded, 1 turnover conceded, 1 lineout steal.
Robshaw - 8 carries for 21m, 11 tackles, 1 penalty conceded (also won at least 1 breakdown pen, but that's not shown in the stats).

Wood made fewer tackles than Rob Webber, and had as many touches of the ball. Robshaw had hands on the ball more than any player bar Billy Vunipola and the halfbacks, and topped the English tackle count.

by hugehandoff Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:57 pm

Not England...they will out soon enough so not a worry for them Sad

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:19 pm

The BBC are saying that JJ looks to be coming on well.

Youngs and Lawes will not train Tuesday, so it sounds like they are iffy for Saturday, but not out of the reckoning

by gregortree Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:24 am

majesticimperialman wrote:That is a good call.

But who would get the call if it was a winger? Chris Ashton may be?

The way this world cup is going with injuries, every team might have to have a second team on stand by. in the future that is.

Strettle . ?

by **George Carlin** Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:17 am

Will Carling on England, as reported in the Scotsman:

Will Carling: Lancaster treats England like boys
by DUNCAN BECH
Tuesday 29 September 2015

England begin the countdown to the defining match of Stuart Lancaster’s reign amid accusations by former captain Will Carling that their head coach has created a “classroom orientated environment” among players treated as “schoolboys”.

England’s World Cup survival hinges on the outcome of Saturday’s showdown with Australia after Wales left Twickenham with a stunning 28-25 upset victory. Should England lose, they will become the first single host nation to exit the tournament at the group stage.

Captain Chris Robshaw has been condemned for opting for an attacking line-out in the closing moments when awarded a penalty instead of giving Owen Farrell the chance to kick for goal – albeit from a difficult position near the touchline – that would have secured a draw.

Carling, who led England 59 times, is scathing of Robshaw’s “unbelievable” decision and of the selection against Wales, but saved his most savage criticism for the failure by Lancaster – a former schoolteacher – to empower his leaders.

“I got the sense that England were panicking. I don’t blame Chris as much as I blame others. I blame the environment,” Carling told Radio 5 Live. “We have a very prescriptive environment in the England team. I’ve listened to Stuart Lancaster say for years that ‘I don’t have the leaders and therefore we’re having to make all the decisions as coaches’. It’s a very classroom orientated environment.

“My view is that he has had leaders and that he needed to have trusted them and develop them.

“What we watched in the last ten minutes was a confused debate between people who have never been given responsibility to lead and drive the team. Instead, we’ve treated them as schoolboys.”

Had England secured a draw against Warren Gatland’s underdogs, they would have been in a stronger position come the final reckoning of an unprecedented tough Pool A.
“You have to kick the penalty. Farrell was kicking brilliantly and if we’d drawn, that would not have been a disastrous result,” Carling said.

“We were far more likely to get those three points than a line-out. There are so many more variables in going for a line-out drive, especially when we executed it as badly as we did.”

Carling, who won 73 caps from 1988-1997, has called for George Ford to be restored to the starting XV and for Henry Slade to be picked in the centres.

“England have to pick sides to win games rather than being hard to beat. There’s a very subtle difference, but a very important one,” Carling said.

“I think we picked a team against Wales that would be hard to beat, would survive off mistakes and pressure when we have players who are good enough to go out and win games.

“Some of the selections were bizarre and the timings were strange.

“To me the mindset was all wrong. We’d beaten Wales on a Friday night in Cardiff in February by attacking them and we should have done the same on Saturday.

“I don’t know where Lancaster goes now. Henry Slade is a great footballer and should have been playing against Wales. We need some footballers in there. If we pick the footballers again, so Ford at 10, Farrell at 12 and Slade at 13, then suddenly we have a backline who can play.”

by emack2 Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:10 am

This Group was going to be a Group with a large casualty rate,all three tier 1 sides
suffering.Australia have lost Skelton and Palu.England Vunipola at least,Wales almost
a whole backs division.
The Referee will have a huge effect on this game,Scrums will be rigourously policed.
He will have Scrums for every little knock on,resets rather than milked penalties
and too many offences will mean yellow cards.
England will need to be good at the breakdown,defending the driving maul,and if
they use a kicking game it must be to touch.
Trying to play 10 man Rugby won`t work,nor aerial ping pong,they need to be
superfit and play for 85 minutes because Australia will._Plus a bench that will
strengthen not weaken there game.
To much has been made of Fortress Twickenham and home advantage bit the
easy ride is over the work starts here.
England probably have a slightly better chance of proceeding than Wales ironically
because frankly can`t see either side beating Australia hope I`m wrong

by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:23 am

Losing Vunipola is a big kick in the teeth but hopefully Morgan will back as they are still neck and neck in my view. Ironically it may be better for England to have the experience of Easter on the bench helping to control the game slightly (or starting for that matter).

Joseph back would be a huge boost but I'd love to see Slade at least make the bench.

by **George Carlin** Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:33 am

emack2 wrote:This Group was going to be a Group with a large casualty rate,all three tier 1 sides
suffering.Australia have lost Skelton and Palu.England Vunipola at least,Wales almost
a whole backs division.
The Referee will have a huge effect on this game,Scrums will be rigourously policed.
He will have Scrums for every little knock on,resets rather than milked penalties
and too many offences will mean yellow cards.
England will need to be good at the breakdown,defending the driving maul,and if
they use a kicking game it must be to touch.
Trying to play 10 man Rugby won`t work,nor aerial ping pong,they need to be
superfit and play for 85 minutes because Australia will._Plus a bench that will
strengthen not weaken there game.
To much has been made of Fortress Twickenham and home advantage bit the
easy ride is over the work starts here.
England probably have a slightly better chance of proceeding than Wales ironically
because frankly can`t see either side beating Australia hope I`m wrong

I don't think you are, Alan. Australia have at least two more gears that we haven't seen in this competition yet and their key guys are healthy (albeit Cooper's goalkicking has been woeful).

by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:45 am

Think it depends on the England midfield. Get the right players in there and use the back 3 and we should be fine. I expect the Aussies to get a bit of bullying up front and the mystical 7s to get nothing much from our back row. If both England and Wales lose surely it's Wales through as I can't see them losing to Fiji.

by RubyGuby Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:27 am

"England probably have a slightly better chance of proceeding than Wales ironically
because frankly can`t see either side beating Australia hope I`m wrong
I don't think you are, Alan. Australia have at least two more gears that we haven't seen in this competition yet and their key guys are healthy (albeit Cooper's goalkicking has been woeful)."

Emack

If neither side beat Aus which for me is probable and Wales beat Fiji then England are out. So I don't understand your "England probably have a better chance of proceeding than Wales"

thumbsup

by milkyboy Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:44 am

Emack is in denial about England not taking the 3 points on Sunday.

by maestegmafia Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:46 am

I read in the Telegraph that Ben Youngs is an injury doubt for England this weekend with a damaged ankle from Saturday's match.

You could be starting with Wigglesworth

by bedfordwelsh Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:49 am

Few teams now starting to get hit by injuries, will JJ be fit for England. Big loss for me, Burgess wasnt bad I just think him and Roberts cancelled each other out.

by Coxy001 Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:51 am

Have some faith:

Wales beat Fiji with a bonus point, move to 14 points.

England beat Aus with 4 tries and by more than 7. Eng to 11, Aus stay on 9.

England 5 points against Uraguay, move to 16 points.

Australia thrash Wales with a bonus point, move to 14 with Wales on 14.

We go through, Aus 2nd and Wales go out Smile

You heard it here first!

by maestegmafia Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:52 am

I think JJ was out for two weeks but he may have recovered faster...

I thought Burgess played ok, not spectacular but better than Barritt at 13, who was turned in defence a number of times.

by maestegmafia Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:54 am

Coxy001 wrote:Have some faith:

Wales beat Fiji with a bonus point, move to 14 points.

England beat Aus with 4 tries and by more than 7. Eng to 11, Aus stay on 9.

England 5 points against Uraguay, move to 16 points.

Australia thrash Wales with a bonus point, move to 14 with Wales on 14.

We go through, Aus 2nd and Wales go out

You heard it here first!

England putting four tries and not conceding less than a seven point advantage is a big ask...!

This Australia side are very good.

by **Pal Joey** Tue Sep 29, 2015 10:57 am

Worth a try though, maes. Strange things can happen when the stakes are so high.

by yappysnap Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:02 am

I think we'll see a reaction from the English players. They've been fairly lacklustre since that French game in the 6N's.

Oz should be when they stand up and turn it around, will we get a bp and deny Australia? When was the last time we scored 4 tries against any SH side? Probably not for a long time, but I do think we'll win.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:07 am

Mixed feelings about Skelton being out. He can have an impact but, when he's on the field with Hooper and Pocock, Australia have a weak lineout. I also had him down as someone who might get carried away and draw a card.

by fa0019 Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:11 am

maestegmafia wrote:
Coxy001 wrote:Have some faith:

Wales beat Fiji with a bonus point, move to 14 points.

England beat Aus with 4 tries and by more than 7. Eng to 11, Aus stay on 9.

England 5 points against Uraguay, move to 16 points.

Australia thrash Wales with a bonus point, move to 14 with Wales on 14.

We go through, Aus 2nd and Wales go out

You heard it here first!

England putting four tries and not conceding less than a seven point advantage is a big ask...!

This Australia side are very good.

England will get 5 vs. Uruguay so they have say 11 points already. If they beat AUS they will have 15. if they lose they're out, but if they win (prob 45:55 to be honest) they'll qualify and for me it all rests on Wales getting that try bonus point vs. Fiji.

I think Wales will find it hard to counter AUS. If they have a bonus point from Fiji they'll have 14 points and only need to lose by <8 to qualify assuming AUS can't get a try bonus point.

That should be enough.

At the moment its more likely AUS will win both games but I think England still have the best chance of both Wales and England to beat AUS. It will be a very close game on Saturday, very close indeed.

by TightHEAD Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:13 am

I'm hoping we see a reaction form the players like we did vs Ireland after losing in Paris.

These guys can do it, but do they believe they can do it after that loss?

by yappysnap Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:13 am

Would any one actually be surprised if barring injuries Lancaster played the exact same team?

I can see it happening, perhaps with the one change of Slade on the bench for Goode.

by fa0019 Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:13 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Mixed feelings about Skelton being out. He can have an impact but, when he's on the field with Hooper and Pocock, Australia have a weak lineout. I also had him down as someone who might get carried away and draw a card.

Skelton is a big loss. He doesn't jump, no one can lift him but a 6'8 guy lifting is a big help and come scrum time they never go back. He's not a hot head... he doesn't ever lose it. But he never starts anyhow.

by RubyGuby Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:15 am

Mike Brown needs to de-escalate as he may well become a liability V Aus -

I can just see an Aussie player saying to Brown, "hey mate, unlucky against Wales, Nice interview though" - You just know that is going to happen and trust me, it was my forte' on the field. thumbsup

.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:16 am

People have said that about brown since he came into the team.

by **George Carlin** Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:19 am

England's problem will be scoring the 4 tries, unless they actually go with a creative midfield like 9. Care 10. Ford 12. Farrell 13. Slade.

by TightHEAD Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:20 am

Brown will be fine.

by TightHEAD Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:22 am

George Carlin wrote:England's problem will be scoring the 4 tries, unless they actually go with a creative midfield like 9. Care 10. Ford 12. Farrell 13. Slade.

Not Farrell.

If JJ is still injuried then drop him from the squad and bring in Kyle Eastmonds, simples.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:24 am

Eastmond has had a nightmare in his last 2 England appearances against the best yes but offered nothing going forward and a revolving door in defence.

by TightHEAD Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:26 am

Does the job for Bath.

by milkyboy Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:26 am

Anyone really think england will need a bonus point against australia? The picture will be a bit clearer after a patched up knackered wales side play a better rested fiji one this week, but I think a win will be enough. I made that sound easy!

by lostinwales Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:29 am

As we go on the bonus point vs Fiji gets more and more important

by fa0019 Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:30 am

George Carlin wrote:England's problem will be scoring the 4 tries, unless they actually go with a creative midfield like 9. Care 10. Ford 12. Farrell 13. Slade.

Why do they need to score 4?

England only have to beat AUS to qualify. Wouldn't matter to them if they win 3-0 or 36-0.

If they do then the other spot will be fought out between Wales and AUS. If Wales win they qualify first. If Aus win they qualify 2nd and Wales go out. Its quite a crazy turn of events.

The only nuts situation would be if England beat AUS, AUS beat Wales and all 3 sides ended up with 15 points due to various bonus points scored. That would put it all down to points diffs.

by milkyboy Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:31 am

....good job billy didn't realise the significance... he might have choked it

by fa0019 Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:32 am

lostinwales wrote:As we go on the bonus point vs Fiji gets more and more important

I really think If Wales fail to get that then it will give England a huge psychological boost. If Wales fail to get that bonus point, all England have to do is beat AUS and they'll top the group in all probability.

by RubyGuby Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:34 am

England only have to beat Aus by 1 point with no BP to go through

thumbsup

by Tattie Scones RRN Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:34 am

After watching Australia so far, I honestly feel that neither England nor Wales will have a hope against them.

Australia were my pick before the WC started.

They have only reinforced that belief.

by RubyGuby Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:36 am

I'm with Tattie here but as we have seen far crazier things have happened in this RWC than England beating Aus at HQ - It remains fascinating

thumbsup

by TightHEAD Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:43 am

How I long for a dull old fashioned game with rain and mud, England 15 - Aus 6 all kicks.

by fa0019 Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:47 am

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:After watching Australia so far, I honestly feel that neither England nor Wales will have a hope against them.

Australia were my pick before the WC started.

They have only reinforced that belief.

Mine too.

Although I would say a few things about them which makes them a little more human.

1. Yes they beat NZ a few months ago but a week later NZ absolutely man shamed them by 30 points. They only beat the boks at home by the last play.

2. Versus Fiji they didn't look that impressive. Looked tired in the 2nd half, when England looked strong.

3. England have a decent record against them, especially at Twickenham. Aus will have far less support there than Wales did additionally.

4. Game relies on front foot ball. If England can get a heavy nudge then AUS will have no answers.

5. Their kickers are poor. If Farrell plays, in a kicking standoff he has both the range and accuracy over either Foley or Cooper.

The whole emphasis sits on whether England can dominate upfront... as if they can't Pocock and Hooper will run riot. If they can however they will be nullified and England will be in the driving seat.

by Poorfour Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:28 pm

RubyGuby wrote:Mike Brown needs to de-escalate as he may well become a liability V Aus -

I can just see an Aussie player saying to Brown, "hey mate, unlucky against Wales, Nice interview though" - You just know that is going to happen and trust me, it was my forte' on the field.
.

Brown was involved in one incident on the pitch that involved about twenty players in the end. From the replay, he wasn't the aggressor and seemed to be holding onto someone's shirt in the fracas while being shoved around by several Welshmen. He may wind people up, but that's allowed in rugby (as long as it's not the ref). He's a feisty character but he's got no record of disciplinary issues on the pitch. I can't even remember when he was last carded.

But people perceive what they want to perceive.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:48 pm

fa0019 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Mixed feelings about Skelton being out. He can have an impact but, when he's on the field with Hooper and Pocock, Australia have a weak lineout. I also had him down as someone who might get carried away and draw a card.

Skelton is a big loss. He doesn't jump, no one can lift him but a 6'8 guy lifting is a big help and come scrum time they never go back. He's not a hot head... he doesn't ever lose it. But he never starts anyhow.

He doesn't have to be a hot head, just over-eager.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/may/25/waratahs-pair-suspended-for-illegal-tackle

by **Pal Joey** Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:51 pm

We're lucky those two will be nowhere near HQ on Saturday, aren't we?
Actually, this Wallaby side is short on hot heads. They're a pretty calm mob really.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:17 pm

From an opposition view point Loaded would be happier seeing Burgess, Barritt or Burgess Slade line up? Assuming you've seen anything of Slade over there.

by **Pal Joey** Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:20 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:From an opposition view point Loaded would be happier seeing Burgess, Barritt or Burgess Slade line up? Assuming you've seen anything of Slade over there.

Haven't seen much of Slade, 7&1/2 but I hear he gets good raps on here. From our p.o.v. I think Barritt would be preferred after last weekend.

by Coxy001 Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:23 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:From an opposition view point Loaded would be happier seeing Burgess, Barritt or Burgess Slade line up? Assuming you've seen anything of Slade over there.

If BB plays (either 12 or 13) then we are bloody doomed. Same goes for a GF/OF combo at 10/12, even with Slade outside them.

Farrell/Burgess/Slade for me. Ford has been off colour and looked mentally shot on Saturday.

England by 18, 34-16 with BP!

by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:25 pm

I don't mind which of farrell or Ford, confident in both, I'd echo that midfield again but you know the coaches are sitting there thinking Barritt got motm at 13 against Aus last time.

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