England Post World Cup

by Geordie Sun 04 Oct 2015, 3:32 pm

Who comes in...and who goes

How about this team for the next game after the WC

1 Marler
2 Tommy Taylor (Sale)
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes (Itoje on the bench)
6 Ewers
7 Kvesic (Clifford on the bench)
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Slade
11 May
12 Tom Stepheson / Sam Hill
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

by No 7&1/2 Sun 04 Oct 2015, 3:43 pm

I'm expecting Lancaster to have fallen on his sword by then but its not a certainty yet. Even so don't think there should be huge changes for a 6N game against Scotland. Mullan Kitchener Slater Wade Kvesic will I think come into serious consideration. You'll no doubt have some of the youngers guys start putting their hands up to.

Hope we don't throw everyone out as we were starting to look good before the coaches bottled it for the 2nd consecutive wc.

by **Notch** Sun 04 Oct 2015, 3:45 pm

Well, the first thing the RFU need to decide is; are you going out to win Six Nations? Or is this about 2019?

I think you have to do the former. I think you need to go out with the intention of winning the next Six Nations and pick with that in mind. You can bring in all the young talent you want but you have to get the core of your current team used to winning, otherwise you're bringing players into an environment where that mentality isn't fostered. So there's nothing to build on. Young guys finding their feet aren't going to drive that culture, that winning habit, overnight no matter how good they are. Minor surgery should be enough.

by No 7&1/2 Sun 04 Oct 2015, 3:49 pm

Yup its always a danger for England that we roll onto the next lot as they do x y and z better. Still need the core of this team together who are still a great bunch of players even if they haven't shown it this time.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 04 Oct 2015, 3:52 pm

Who is your captain GF? Marler has captained Quins but I'm not convinced he's up to the England job. There's not a lot of leadership experience anywhere there, so you'd be going the Will Carling route.

by Geordie Sun 04 Oct 2015, 3:55 pm

No sod the 2019 world cup.

Go for the 2016 Grand slam...or at least win the damn thing. And have a goal to beat the SH teams.

Then improve year upon year and we should be fine for the WC.

Average players like Farrell need to go.

by Geordie Sun 04 Oct 2015, 3:57 pm

Marlers place is massively under threat aswell.

Maybe Hartley needs to come back to stabalize the pack until a youngster puts his hand up. If that's the case he would be my captain.

Until one of Kvesic or Itoje is ready to take over....or maybe Burgess but he needs to be firing for Bath at 6.

by majesticimperialman Sun 04 Oct 2015, 3:58 pm

For me most of the team that have played in this rugby world cup will stay. with other players being brought in to the squad.

It is the coaches in my opinion that need sorting out. keep SL maybe Rowntree but the others must go.

by king_carlos Sun 04 Oct 2015, 4:14 pm

A complete turnover of players isn't need but a complete reassesment of the type of players we select in certain positions is needed.

Most importantly in the back row - I would like to see 6.Itoje 7.Robshaw and 6.Robshaw 7.Kvesic tried. If either outshine Robshaw at 6 or 7 then we can look to 6.Itoje 7.Kvesic. That said I'm not averse to Ewers being tried at 6 rather than Itoje or someone like Fraser getting a look in at 7 if he can get fit and show form.

It's the change of mentality towards looking for game changers in either position that I want. Whether those be game changers due to their breakdown work and link play or greater physicality, destructive defence and carying is down to the next coach. A change needs to be seen there though.

by Hammersmith harrier Sun 04 Oct 2015, 4:22 pm

I wouldn't be dropping Ford at 10 but I think it is finally time to move on from the bruising midfield, it just doesn't work when we have such a dangerous back three.

1. Marler
2. Hartley (Discipline or not he's still the best hooker we have)
3. Brooks
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Itoje
7. Armitage (Need to get past the stupid overseas rule)
8. Morgan/Vunipola

9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. May
12. Slade
13. Joseph
14. Watson
15. Brown

A possibly lightweight backline but the Aussies and Welsh must have breathed a huge sigh of relief when they saw Farrell and Barritt, lets pick players who can cause damage; two playmakers, Josephs feet and the pace of May and Watson.

by king_carlos Sun 04 Oct 2015, 4:27 pm

For the next EPS I hope to see a squad something like below.

LH - Marler, Mako, Waller

Hooker - George, Youngs, Webber

TH - Cole, Brookes, Wilson

Second row - Launchbury, Lawes, Slater, Kitchener

Flanker - Robshaw, Kvesic, Itoje, Ewers

Number 8 - Morgan, Billy V

Scrum half - Youngs, Care + AN other

Fly half - Ford, Farrell

Centre - Joseph, Slade, Tuilagi, Daly

Back three - Brown, Watson, May, Nowell, Wade

At scrum half I really hope that Robson and Simpson can really push on at Wasps and challenge one another to keep getting better.

by majesticimperialman Sun 04 Oct 2015, 4:39 pm

I hope the likes of Corbersero will be fit to fight for a place in the 6ns.

Will Hartley make it back into the team/squad?

What about the wings. yes we have May, Watson, their is Wade to come into the picture
cannot think of his name,plays for Sarries i think?

BUT CENTRE is the big one that needs fixing. Burrel in Burges out. for me any way. Joseph, Slade, Tualagi, Barrit his work rate is undeniable. ? who else is there.

by Geordie Sun 04 Oct 2015, 4:39 pm

king_carlos wrote:For the next EPS I hope to see a squad something like below.

LH - Marler, ~~Mako~~, Waller, Auterac if he performs for Bath this season

Hooker - George, Youngs, ~~Webber~~ Hartley

TH - Cole, Brookes, Wilson

Second row - Launchbury, Lawes, Slater, Kitchener

Flanker - Robshaw, Kvesic, Itoje, Ewers, Burgess if he performs for Bath

Number 8 - Morgan, Billy V

Scrum half - Youngs, Care ~~+ AN other~~ , Robson

Fly half - Ford, ~~Farrell~~ Slade

Centre - Joseph, ~~Slade~~, Tuilagi, Daly, Hill or Stephenson

Back three - Brown, Watson, May, Nowell, Wade

At scrum half I really hope that Robson and Simpson can really push on at Wasps and challenge one another to keep getting better.

by Geordie Sun 04 Oct 2015, 4:44 pm

Centres....Sam Hill and Tom Stephenson.

by No 7&1/2 Sun 04 Oct 2015, 4:53 pm

Not entirely convinced about Hill as an international. Where will Itoje get games at Saracens or will he be used more as a utility?

by Hammersmith harrier Sun 04 Oct 2015, 4:55 pm

I wouldn't have Mako or Youngs in the squad, would be tempted to recall Attwood, think we missed his bulk in the scrum at times.

by king_carlos Sun 04 Oct 2015, 4:57 pm

I don't view Farrell as poorly as many do so would still keep him in the squad GF. If Slade isn't playing in the centres I would be very tempted to have him on the bench ahead of Owen though. His kicking from hand was poor yesterday but he is still an accomplished player with a very useful skill set. Having a player in a squad who can slot goals from anywhere is a fantastic asset. The rest of his game still needs to come on but at 24 he certainly has the talent and time for this.

Hill and Stephenson I would have in the Saxons for now.

by Geordie Sun 04 Oct 2015, 5:17 pm

I'm not sure Farrell does have a decent skill set. Time to just pick some creative 10's

Cipriani, Ford, Slade

7.5 - I think Stephenson is the one to really look at

by king_carlos Sun 04 Oct 2015, 5:33 pm

Strong defensive leader, excellent kicker from the tee and reasonable distribution if given options.

He won't create something from nothing but with exciting back three players, Joseph, Youngs/Care and possibly Tuilagi if he can get fit we have plenty of guys who can do this.

When our back 3 was struggling we often talked about properly utilising them, I feel the same is true of Farrell. If we give him a backline and some forwards running good lines off him and giving him options then I believe he can pull the strings well. If has little to work with he will only compound the problem however.

Ford should definitely be first choice and as said if Slade isn't in the centre he has the talent to deserve a shot as second in line. Farrell still has a place in the squad though IMO.

Stephenson is a big talent and I'd want him in the Saxons with Burrell, Hill and Lowe, again if he can get fit, not just as one for the future but also as a genuine EPS replacement in case of injury. I'd still consider him a bit behind others as a current option however.

by Barney McGrew did it Sun 04 Oct 2015, 5:52 pm

I'm still not convinced that the problem is mostly about selection. I think it's much more to do with coaching and style. I'm not sure the players really know what SL want of them. The pack is a good example. For some years we've mostly matched the opposition or better (SA aside), then in the past months our scrum's gone and what breakdown skills we had have disappeared (remember how good Robshaw has been here). Some of it is injury and recent return from injury. Some from the lightweight TY. But mostly the same players cannot have suddenly become poor.

An exception is in the centres where SL simply has no idea what he wants, and it shows. Maybe the team are picking up on this muddled vision and are just not on the same wavelength as the coaches. Maybe SL & Farrell Snr really want to play RL and the boys don't.

So my changes for the 6N are a completely new coaching team. Get Hartley back. And pick 2-4 centres (centres that aren't flankers) and stick with them. And backbone overhauls for everyone.

by funnyExiledScot Sun 04 Oct 2015, 8:46 pm

My England for 6 Nations 2016:

1.Corbs 2.Hartley 3.Cole 4.Launchbury 5.Lawes 6.Robshaw 7.Armitage 8.Billy V 9.B Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Tuilagi 13.Joseph 14.Wade 15.Brown

16.Wilson 17.Cowan-Dickie 18.Marler 19.Attwood 20.Itoje 21.Robson 22.Slade 23.Watson

by Sgt_Pooly Sun 04 Oct 2015, 9:13 pm

Agree that only minor surgery is needed in the playing squad, the main issue is the game plan or lack of.

We need top class coaches involved. Farrell & Catt to go, possibly Rowntree too.

On the playing front, Armitage and Itoje need to come in with Hughes post 6N. I don't understand the calls for Ewers, he's too slow and cumbersome.

Kvesic also is way off Int rugby, I think the clamour for a "proper 7" takes us away from the fact he's not actually any good. I'm thinking Andy Saull MkII, an average AP player.

Clifford should be seriously worked on asap. The lad has bags of natural talent but requires more skills on the deck. Give him a plan and he could be the answer in the long term.

by SirBurger Sun 04 Oct 2015, 10:02 pm

My 32 EPS:

Hookers: Hartley, Youngs, Cowan-Dickie
Props: Marler, Vunipola, Cole, Brookes
Second Row: Launchbury, Lawes, Slater, Symons
Back Row: Itoje, Ewers, Robshaw, Kvesic, Hughes, Morgan

Scrum Half: Youngs, Simpson, Robson
Fly Half: Ford, Cipriani
Centre: Slade, Devoto, Tuilagi, Joseph,
Wing: May, Nowell, Yarde, Wade
Full Back: Brown, Watson

by doctor_grey Sun 04 Oct 2015, 10:35 pm

So some players are kept, perhaps most. But that won't push England cver the top.

But WHAT should be done differently? What will bring the performance of this team back to the level of the 6 Nations, and then plus it up? This is what we had all hoped was going to happen. Specifically different game plan? New captain, New leadership overall? Bring back some old, discarded players?

by king_carlos Mon 05 Oct 2015, 1:32 am

doctor_grey wrote:So some players are kept, perhaps most. But that won't push England cver the top.

But WHAT should be done differently? What will bring the performance of this team back to the level of the 6 Nations, and then plus it up? This is what we had all hoped was going to happen. Specifically different game plan? New captain, New leadership overall? Bring back some old, discarded players?

Game plan first and foremost. We saw in the 6 Nations that our current group of players are much better suited to playing a more expansive game than other England sides from the past. We have also seen during the world cup that we don't currently have the players, or at least not within the set-up, to play an up the jumper and search for penalties style of rugby.

So that for me is the most important thing. Setting out a clear game plan with the intention of using the whole width of the pitch and bringing the back three into play in attack.

The way the game is moving mean that you can no longer consistently challenge the best with 10 man rugby. We need to genuinely utilise all 15 players on the pitch.

In terms of personnel changes we need better balance in our back row to challenge the best sides in attack and defence, especially at the breakdown. We also need a centre axis capable of holding a defence but also getting the ball to the wider channels.

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 8:19 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't understand the calls for Ewers, he's too slow and cumbersome.

Kvesic also is way off Int rugby, I think the clamour for a "proper 7" takes us away from the fact he's not actually any good.

Clifford should be seriously worked on asap. The lad has bags of natural talent but requires more skills on the deck. Give him a plan and he could be the answer in the long term.

Im not sure Sgt.

Kvesic was one of the form players last season and is a cracking player. Likewise Ewers. Not sure he's ponderous. Hes a physical big guy who would add a different dimension to the ponderous Wood, add bite in defence and will take the sole carrying burden off the No.8
He's similar to Haskel and Burgess. Big strong carriers. But Haskells inconsistency is an issue and Burgess is a work in progress.

Of course those are just two options....

And ill repeat what I have said all along...how do you know unless you play them in a few meaningful games against good opposition. Watching a player in training is all very well but not the be all.

We could alternatively go:

6 Clifford
7 Armitage
8 Billy / Ben

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Oct 2015, 8:25 am

Agree with that king. There's tweaks that can be made but we should be looking at this pool of players and getting the best out of them.

Armitage isn't getting near the team before he decides to move back to England. The ongoing problem with the argument for needing to try new players is that there are loads of players who could be given a try and not enough games to do it.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Oct 2015, 8:26 am

Nathan Hughes to fit in there obviously from June (I think).

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 8:44 am

No thanks to Hughes. He should have chosen his real country Fiji.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Oct 2015, 8:46 am

To be fair I'd be annoyed at the manager if they don't pick him. Great prospect and even if we all disagree with the rule it would be madness to play to a different set of rules to everyone else.

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 8:48 am

So at least everyone is clear that the back row will be near enough brand new.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 05 Oct 2015, 8:50 am

Just happens that there's going to be some good players coming through for back row, would have been the same if we'd won the world cup. I'd be surprised if any of the current first choice back row was completely discarded.

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Mon 05 Oct 2015, 8:51 am

Maybe you should consider this before appointing a new captain:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHOu2Jh ... e=youtu.be

Very Happy

by sad_gimp Mon 05 Oct 2015, 9:19 am

Post WC we need to pick a starting 15 and stick with it, so in 4 years time we have a settled, experienced group of players. I don't think we're missing the players per se, just the nous and experience.

I'd run with

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Kruis
Launchbury
Clifford
Morgan
Robshaw
Care/Youngs

Ford
May
Slade
Joseph
Watson
Brown

I don't think Youngs has done much wrong but I don't think he's any better than Care. Care seems a new man these days, had a kid recently, captaining quins this season...wouldn't mind seeing him with the england armband if he goes well.

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 9:29 am

I think these are the positions we really need to have a close look at.

2
5
6
7
10
12

With
1&3 needing a kick up the aris to remind them they are props first not flankers!

by Bathman_in_London Mon 05 Oct 2015, 9:44 am

There certainly needs to be a clean slate approach. For me Kvesic isn't that good, if you remember back to 2010/11 when Robshaw was pulling up trees in the league but couldn't get past Moody, its fair to say Kvesic hasn't been at level.

For me a midfield of Ford Slade and Joesph could be interesting, with an increased emphasis on getting our more mobile forwards (of which we have a lot) really running attacking lines off them, rather than just waiting for the rucks.

by hugehandoff Mon 05 Oct 2015, 10:01 am

In SL's defence England players are just not that good at the moment. How many would make a Lions test team right now? Hartley, Manu, Brown, Billy V? Launchbury and a few others would make the touring party, but overall it is a weak crop of players. There is talent coming through, but that will take time.

What SL cannot defend is his ridiculous selections and going into key RWC matches without Hartley and with a untried midfield. I sincerely hope that SL goes and that we get a quality replacement coach. Selection wise I just want the strongest team selected and let's try and win a Grand Slam. New players should only be brought in when they are ready. Come the 6Ns is Corbs is the best loosehead then select him. No need to panic in selecting young players who will just struggle. Introduce them into a winning environment in a gradual manner and that will be more successful.

by BamBam Mon 05 Oct 2015, 10:11 am

From a v2 sense post world cup, can we all stop championing our own club players at the expense of all others, and getting massively defensive whenever any of them are criticised/left out of squads?

And its not just beshocked in case he thinks I'm picking on him

by **LondonTiger** Mon 05 Oct 2015, 10:17 am

The first thing the new Head Coach needs to do is identify any players who have the potential to be world class. Currently none in the squad (or out of it) are at that level.

These players then need to be developed properly. that does not necessarily mean they are automatically in the team - but the skills they need have to be developed at their clubs - so we need more interaction there.

by beshocked Mon 05 Oct 2015, 10:19 am

If a new coach comes in who understands how to utilise certain players....

1.Mako
2.George
3.Brookes
4.Launchbury
5.Slater
6.Itoje
7.Ksevic
8.Vunipola

9.Youngs
10.Ford
11.Nowell
12.Slade
13.Joseph
14.Ashton
15.Foden

16.Marler
17.Hartley
18.Cole
19.Kitchener
20.Robshaw
21.Care
22.Cipriani
23.Watson

EPS similar to king carlos but some slight changes:

LH - Marler, Mako, Waller

Hooker - George, Hartley, Webber

TH - Cole, Brookes, Wilson

Second row - Launchbury, Lawes, Slater, Kitchener

Flanker - Robshaw, Kvesic, Itoje, Ewers

Number 8 - Morgan, Billy V

Scrum half - Youngs, Care + one of Spencer,Robson or Simpson

Fly half - Ford, Cipriani

Centre - Joseph, Slade, Tuilagi,Hill

Back three - Brown, Foden, Watson, Ashton, Nowell.

by BamBam Mon 05 Oct 2015, 10:25 am

beshocked wrote:

14.Ashton

BamBam wrote:From a v2 sense post world cup, can we all stop championing our own club players at the expense of all others, and getting massively defensive whenever any of them are criticised/left out of squads?

And its not just beshocked in case he thinks I'm picking on him

I guess not

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 05 Oct 2015, 10:31 am

Brookes is not a starting TH. We seen against Aus he gave us 10 good mins then crumbled, he's not a good TH.

Cole wasn't at his best but he certainly wasn't helped by Youngs and Marler.

As mentioned earlier, minor tweaks are needed. Special talents such as Itoje, Clifford need to be brought in groomed for the next WC.

Finding somebody good at the breakdown is a priority.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 05 Oct 2015, 10:33 am

BamBam wrote:From a v2 sense post world cup, can we all stop championing our own club players at the expense of all others, and getting massively defensive whenever any of them are criticised/left out of squads?

Right now the only Leicester player I would consider is Ben Youngs. Even then for his dumb mistake at the start of the game I would probably not include him.

I do think brother Tom was perhaps England's best forward in the tournament so far - however I want to see a bigger lump in the front row.

by beshocked Mon 05 Oct 2015, 10:37 am

Bambam I will champion players who I think are the best.

Of course you would have missed it but I have found no room for Wigglesworth,Farrell and Barritt because they had their opportunities in the world cup.

I want to see Ashton given a chance under a coach who isn't Lancaster, because Ashton was good for Johnson, he's been good for Mccall and you never know, with a 10 like Ford and a decent coach in charge he might do well.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 05 Oct 2015, 10:40 am

Ashton will be playing in France by this time next year. Sarries are keen to offload him and reduce the wage bill, while his agent is racking up the eurotunnel miles.

by BamBam Mon 05 Oct 2015, 10:45 am

beshocked wrote:Bambam I will champion players who I think are the best.

Of course you would have missed it but I have found no room for Wigglesworth,Farrell and Barritt because they had their opportunities in the world cup.

I want to see Ashton given a chance under a coach who isn't Lancaster, because Ashton was good for Johnson, he's been good for Mccall and you never know, with a 10 like Ford and a decent coach in charge he might do well.

Well I think you're wrong to exclude Farrell, and I think you may have been lynched if you had included Wiggles and Barritt

I'll post my squad in a moment, so i can't be accused of ripping others to shreds without posting my own thoughts

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 05 Oct 2015, 10:51 am

Ashton is worth a punt but is wing an area of concern at this stage??

by beshocked Mon 05 Oct 2015, 10:57 am

Londontiger perhaps. I still think he's been a good player for Saracens.

Bambam Farrell has no control, he's a wild child. Plus his flaws were amplified.

Farrell Jr is part of the failed regime of Lancaster and Farrell Sr, he needs to change his outlook IMO if he's going to be involved in any future England set up.

Dropping him might force him to get rid of his massive ego.

To be frank I don't want him at Saracens either.

Lynched? I criticised enough as it is.

Well Sgt Pooly May and Watson were hardly tearing up the RWC were they?

6/10 for both IMO.

My current feeling of May is Meh.

by BamBam Mon 05 Oct 2015, 10:57 am

All being fit and in form, the squad I would like to see is

Props
EPS - Marler, Mako, Corbs, Cole, Brookes
Saxons - Auterac, Waller, Sinckler, Thomas

Hooker
EPS - Hartley, George, Youngs
Saxons - LCD, Taylor

Lock
EPS - Lawes, Launchbury, Kruis, Slater
Saxons - Kitchener, Symons

Flankers
EPS - Robshaw, Itoje, Ewers, Kvesic, Burgess
Saxons - Clifford

Number 8
EPS - Billy, Morgan
Saxons - Beaumont, Hughes when available

SH
EPS - Youngs, Care
Saxons - Robson, Simpson

FH
EPS - Ford, Farrell, Cips
Saxons - Whoever is left

Centre
EPS - Joseph, Slade, Hill/Stephenson/Devoto whoever is playing best, Burrell until Manu back on form
Saxons - Other two and Daly

Bacl 3
EPS - Brown, Watson, May, Nowell, Yarde
Saxons - Wade, Pennell

by Geordie Mon 05 Oct 2015, 11:15 am

I never push the falcons players - im a realist...however young TH Scott Wilsons form this preseason has been very impressive. Really showing what we hoped from him.

He needs to be monitored and might be worth looking at a Saxons spot if he can take that form into the premiership.

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