England Post World Cup

by Geordie Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:32 pm

First topic message reminder :

Who comes in...and who goes

How about this team for the next game after the WC

1 Marler
2 Tommy Taylor (Sale)
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes (Itoje on the bench)
6 Ewers
7 Kvesic (Clifford on the bench)
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Slade
11 May
12 Tom Stepheson / Sam Hill
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

by Geordie Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:19 am

On the contrary I thought your comments weren't enough.

Leonard has well over 100 caps. That would suggest he was more than a "decent scrummager". He also covered both sides.

And as for Tim Rodber ...one of my all time faves. I was querying that you listed him as "decent lineout , nice carries"

The guy was an absolute beast!

by fa0019 Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:27 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:On the contrary I thought your comments weren't enough.

Leonard has well over 100 caps. That would suggest he was more than a "decent scrummager". He also covered both sides.

And as for Tim Rodber ...one of my all time faves. I was querying that you listed him as "decent lineout , nice carries"

The guy was an absolute beast!

Leonard was a brilliant player in terms of longevity but he never ate people for breakfast so to speak. At least not SH opposition. He was solid, albeit solid for 10+ years which is amazing to be fair.

by beshocked Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:01 pm

Londontiger Itoje captained England in the JRWC 2014 final then they won. http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jun/20/england-win-junior-world-championship-south-africa

He was captain when it mattered.

Man of the tournament in the 2014 6 nations. He might have not been captain in one or two matches but he has been most of the time.

He's a JRWC winner, LV Cup winner and AP winner. Yes I know there's the whole salary cap issue but that is used as a stick to demean Itoje's achievements but I think that's a good start for a 20 year old.

Sgt Pooly you're comparing a 26 year old who has had no impact at club level to one of the brightest forward prospects in England.... a 20 year old who has done more in one season than Mark Wilson in his whole career.

If Mark Wilson was as good as you think then I am sure a club higher up the league table would have picked him up.

by dummy_half Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:10 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Any guys...lots of good debate but hey its done now. Cant change anything.

Where do we go?

1) Should Lancaster stay. If not who is the options?
2) Should his coaches stay
3) Mass Changes or just a few subtle changes
4) Does Hartley come back in?
5) Does the style and tactics need to change?

1 - Can't see how SL can remain, although I think that the failure to get out of the RWC group will be used to degrade some of the things he has done well in introducing new players. I think Eddie Jones has enhanced his already good reputation with his work with Japan, but would he want to work in the UK?

2 - New coach, new broom as he sees fit.

3 - I'm definitely more of the opinion that a few subtle changes would be best. Look initially at 2, flankers and 12, as most other positions we have at least 1 and often 2 proven performers. Of the 32 players involved in the RWC squad, I can see about 23-25 continuing to be there or thereabouts.

4 - If Hartley comes back, it is only a short term solution. I hope we'll have a better young alternative available within the next 2 seasons.

5 - I think the overall style we are attempting to play is largely right (i.e. a couple of big ball carriers and then some pace and skill in the backs), but that there are detail areas to work on, particularly regarding support for the ball carrier and aggressiveness at the breakdown.

by Sgt_Pooly Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:11 pm

So you can't be a good player in a poor club? Utter tosh.

Team achievements don't equal a top player, it's the same drivel from you over and over.

Wilson got capped at Saxons level and I'd say he was a better player than Itoje currently. Wilson outplayed Itoje so is therefore better, no?

It's harder to gain recognition playing at a poor club. I very much doubt we'd be having this conversation if Itoje was at Falcons or Irish.

by Geordie Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:12 pm

Mark Wilson is a tremendous player Beshocked. Maybe he's happy in this area in a club that's got great plans to improve.

I think your going on a bit too much about Itoje now. Hes not god. He was "part " of the winning side...

Don't forget how much of an impression Mark Wilson has made in the falcons side. How much impression would Itoje make in the Newcastle side??? In the future maybe a bit...but in his first season not half as much!!

by RubyGuby Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:24 pm

I think the theory that you can't be a good player at a poor club works both ways and for me it is the reason why Wigglesworth was in the squad. He is a distinctly average 9 getting an armchair ride at club level which to the uninitiated makes him look pretty useful.

thumbsup

by king_carlos Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:32 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The breakdown is a massive area of weakness for us and as mentioned Itoje is a downgrade on our 3 best flankers, I can't see why he would be considered (he wasn't obviously and rightly so)

Defensively he wouldn't have made a difference at the breakdown but having a stronger ball carrier in the back row whilst maintaining a line-out option, hence maybe not requiring the Parling and Lawes lock partnership, could have seen better balance.

Our attacking play during the world cup started resembling the old 'throw the ball to Manu and see what happens' gameplan of a couple of seasons ago. Except Manu taking a crash ball off 10 was replaced by Billy or Morgan taking a short ball off 9. For an Australian side featuring Hooper and Pocock it was incredibly easy to target.

An extra ball carrier with some dynamism could have provided the variety needed to at least look like we had other ideas. This in turn could have made our breakdown harder to target and allowed us to keep Launchbury in the XV for his breakdown skills.

I'm not saying it's a travesty that Itoje didn't go but someone with a different skill set should have been tried.

- The balance in the back row had often looked missing in big games for some time
- Wood was woefully out of form coming into the RWC and his breakdown work has diminished massively at Int level IMO
- Haskell has been woefully inconsistent

A different sort of player should have been tried. I'm not arguing that Itoje is the saviour, just that I feel his skill set could have been useful in this squad.

In all honesty when it came to trialling players I would have preffered Kvesic or Ewers getting a go over Itoje - sorry Sgt I know that will probably be the last line to make you block my posts! Hug

by Heaf Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:38 pm

beshocked wrote:Londontiger Itoje captained England in the JRWC 2014 final then they won. http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jun/20/england-win-junior-world-championship-south-africa

He was captain when it mattered.

Man of the tournament in the 2014 6 nations. He might have not been captain in one or two matches but he has been most of the time.

He's a JRWC winner, LV Cup winner and AP winner. Yes I know there's the whole salary cap issue but that is used as a stick to demean Itoje's achievements but I think that's a good start for a 20 year old.

Sgt Pooly you're comparing a 26 year old who has had no impact at club level to one of the brightest forward prospects in England.... a 20 year old who has done more in one season than Mark Wilson in his whole career.

If Mark Wilson was as good as you think then I am sure a club higher up the league table would have picked him up.

Ok I know I shouldn't go there but ...

Maybe most of those clubs higher up were sticking by the rules and don't have room in their cap .... JJ and Watson were both good players at Irish, if Bath weren't inclined to ignore the rules then maybe they'd still be at Irish (and yes I know there are other factors involved) ... I don't think you can judge a player by the team they play for ...

by Breadvan Fri Oct 09, 2015 1:38 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Any guys...lots of good debate but hey its done now. Cant change anything.

Where do we go?

1) Should Lancaster stay. If not who is the options?
2) Should his coaches stay
3) Mass Changes or just a few subtle changes
4) Does Hartley come back in?
5) Does the style and tactics need to change?

1, I dunno. I'd like him to stay but his big game weakness has shown through big style this tourney.
2, Absolutely not.
3, Subtle changes. If Burgess stays in union, keep him at flanker. Get a core group of centres.
4, Yes
5, A new coaching set up will sort this out.

Also, an out and out ban on the use of the terms rebuilding, transistion, 2019 world cup.

by RubyGuby Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:02 pm

As far as changes are concerned the welsh team that lost to Fiji under Gareth Jenkins and his coaching team in the 2007 RWC went on to win a GS under Gatland and have enjoyed relative success since. I think you need to think about this before destroying a lot of players confidence. A new coaching setup can make a huge difference relatively equickly

thumbsup

by beshocked Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:17 pm

Geordiefalcon I never claimed he was a god, I just think he's underrated by Sgt Pooly who thinks he's a poor player.

To be honest I think Itoje would have probably shone brighter at Newcastle. Sometimes being in a club lower down the league can make you stand out more in terms of performance as contrast to team mates.

The whole surrounded by good players or bad players works both ways. It's much easier to be a starter in a weaker team for example so getting gametime is much easier.

Itoje has had to fight hard to get into the Saracens 23. For a 20 year old to do it isn't easy.

Sgt Pooly wow and you call me deluded? Saying a player like Wilson is better than one of the brightest talents in English rugby. Cmon.....

Of course there can be good players at clubs lower down the league table e.g. Pennell was a good full back at club like Worcester but the problem is he's always going to struggle to get international recognition because he's not playing at a high enough level.

Burger for example stands out in a weak Namibian team. Ksevic has done well in a struggling Gloucester side.

The best way you can prove yourself is gametime and playing at the highest level. Itoje has not looked out of place against big packs like Racing Metro,Clermont,Saints and Bath. It's the best way for a player to lay down a marker.

Heaf take the salary stuff to the appropriate thread please. Bath wanted Watson and Joseph because they rated them highly. To be honest I think playing in the ERCC helps with their development and improve as players. E.g. when they helped Bath demolish Toulouse that laid a much bigger marker than anything they did at LI.

Would they have got international recognition as quickly at LI? Perhaps not.

Ultimately you find out how good a player is by seeing them play at the highest possible level.

Itoje still has a lot of proving to do but he can only do that if given opportunities to do that.

The argument is - he's not ready - well you don't know if he's ready unless you try him.

How long do you wait?

If Players X,Y and Z keep failing how long till you wait till you ring the changes?

by Bathman_in_London Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:26 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Any guys...lots of good debate but hey its done now. Cant change anything.

Where do we go?

1) Should Lancaster stay. If not who is the options?
2) Should his coaches stay
3) Mass Changes or just a few subtle changes
4) Does Hartley come back in?
5) Does the style and tactics need to change?

1. Not in his current role. Personally I would keep him involved in something nearer to his original role, focusing on the development of players between U20's to the full set up. Or just ditch Andrew and put Bomber in his place, he is certainly organised enough for it.

2. No. We can argue about selection for ever, but this is a good group of players who performed badly when it mattered. For me, it was coaching issues that let us down, going into big games with no obvious game plan is just madness.

3. Few changes really I think, the 1st training squad included all the players who even us armchair pundits would include, whoever is coach for the 6N is unlikely to look much outside that group.

4. If he performs for Saints in the next few months.

5. Having some tactics at all would help! Certainly our rucks need to improve, as does our work rate when carrying. For me the reason Pocock looked so good against us was that we seemed determined to attack in 1's, rather than in a triangle, having a 'proper 7', whatever that is, wouldn't have helped. But I think a new coach would put their own stamp on the team.

by Sgt_Pooly Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:32 pm

Unfortunately 3 month before a WC is not the time to be trying out numerous players.

Good luck finding a post that say Itoje is poor....it's never happened.

I think he's a cracking prospect and have always said this. Do I think he's currently better than RobWoodHask......no. Do I think he's better than Wilson & Ewers.....no.

Itoje is a very bright prospect but he's got a lot to learn.

Interestingly, Ikira Ioane is probably seen as the brightest prospect at 6 in the world (more so than Itoje). He had a great FULL S15 season yet didn't get near the NZ side. Because he's not as good the other players and he's got a lot to learn.....

by beshocked Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:48 pm

Sgt Pooly

Warm ups aren't the time to try players? When is then? Is a good time, France away in the 6 nations?

We obviously have different view points on when the best time to try new players is. I believe easier games against weaker opposition or games with nothing on the line are the best time to give inexperienced players a taste of international rugby in a progression.

Lancaster and you obviously think the best time are crunch games like France away and Wales in the RWC.....

If you don't think Itoje is better than Wilson then you are effectively saying he's poor.

Ewers is another player perhaps unlucky to miss out, so too was Ksevic.

So what was the right strategy then? Lancaster's little plan didn't exactly work out did it?

Surely even you don't believe that the England side is nearly as strong as the NZ one.... Also Ikira Ioane is younger than Itoje even.

NZ are the best side in the world, they don't need to fix their squad, they didn't go out in the pool stages.

by **LondonTiger** Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:53 pm

Warm-ups are most definitely not the time to try players out. They are by their definition to get the squad warmed up for the challenge ahead.

Itoje is a real prospect but he was not good enough to oust anyone selected at second row or back row. He may be a world beater - but he is not there yet. He needs to:

1) Settle on a position
2) Address the weaknesses (pace and breakdown if backrow, lineout if second row)
3) Establish himself as a genuine first choice player at his club.

If he is as good as we hope, he will progress in leaps and bounds. However he did not show enough for any right minded watcher to earn a spot in the final 31 man squad. Therefore it was 100% the correct decision not to use him in the warm ups.

by Sgt_Pooly Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:04 pm

Exactly LT.

You're correct Beshocked, WC warm ups are not the time to be trying numerous players, 6 Nation games are.

by beshocked Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Londontiger how did that work out? Not well did it? Whatever you say Lancaster poorly utilised the warm ups.

No he's not there yet because Lancaster didn't give him an opportunity in the warm ups.

You might well be right - perhaps he wasn't ready but Lancaster never tried him and I personally think that was a mistake.

Perhaps it would be forgivable if England had a good world cup campaign but it's been a shambles. It's not necessarily Itoje who should have been given an opportunity - Ksevic too and maybe even Ewers but Lancaster didn't.

The "better" players weren't good enough.

1) Settle on a position? Like Burgess has? Like Slade has?
2) Every player needs to address their weaknesses.
3) He is a first choice player at the club when it mattered at the business end of last season, I am sure he'll be involved heavily in the 23 again.

by Hoonercat Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:10 pm

Beshocked could you not start a separate thread about Itoje, rather than turning every other thread in to one? Seriously, you've said it all a thousand times before, we all know your feelings on the matter, we don't need to read it time and time again. Sorry if that comes across as rude, but it really is getting dull and just gets in the way of other, more interesting posts. As for the rest of you, stop feeding him Erm

by Sgt_Pooly Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:14 pm

Hoonercat wrote:Beshocked could you not start a separate thread about Itoje, rather than turning every other thread in to one? Seriously, you've said it all a thousand times before, we all know your feelings on the matter, we don't need to read it time and time again. Sorry if that comes across as rude, but it really is getting dull and just gets in the way of other, more interesting posts. As for the rest of you, stop feeding him

by Mad for Chelsea Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:17 pm

this is getting silly now. you simply can't try every single player in England who's shown a bit of promise, not and build a team. Some posters on here want to have their cake and eat it, i.e. build a balanced side used to playing together with plenty of experience AND give players X,Y,Z a go because "we can't know how good they are if we don't try them".

There was nothing wrong with most of Lancaster's squad, you always knew the flankers would be the three he picked. In the pack the only debatable calls were Kruis and Brookes IMO (ahead of Slater/Attwood and Corbs/Thomas) and those calls made no impact whatsoever on the campaign. The problem is our players didn't play well enough, simple as that.

Obviously the centres picks were more debatable, but again, is that what really made the difference? not IMO.

Itoje? Yes lots of potential, but WC warm-ups are there to prepare the WC (hint is in the name), not get players involved for the sake of it. Itoje wasn't involved because at the moment he's neither as good a flanker as the three in the squad (plus Clark, and maybe one or two others), nor as good a lock as the four in the squad and the other two mentioned above. WCs (warm-ups or squads) are not, nor should they ever be, the place to "have a look at a player".

Doh

by Mad for Chelsea Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:20 pm

beshocked wrote:It's not necessarily Itoje who should have been given an opportunity - Ksevic too and maybe even Ewers but Lancaster didn't.

sorry but this is ridiculous. England had three warm-ups and you want them to try out THREE new flankers (I assume you think giving Clark a try was wrong, otherwise that'd be four). There simply isn't time for that, not unless you want the flankers who are actually likely to be picked and start in the WC itself to arrive completely short of match fitness...

by beshocked Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:20 pm

Hoonercat by all means if you tell someone like Sgt Pooly to not bring him up.

You're right - it's a futile cause.

Lancaster's decisions cannot be questioned.....

Mad for Chelsea apologies I am not going to answer you because Hoonercat wants me to refrain for talking about he who must not be named.

No questioning of Lancaster's decisions allowed. I understand.

Lancaster has had a great world cup campaign so far. Got the massive game vs Uruguay to look forward to.

by Sgt_Pooly Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:24 pm

I would never bring up Itoje, this is a thread about England.

by beshocked Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:25 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would never bring up Itoje, this is a thread about England.

Beshocked has pretty much retracted this so I'll just edit it out.

by Sgt_Pooly Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:28 pm

beshocked wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would never bring up Itoje, this is a thread about England.

Racist.

I hope that's in jest Beshocked

by beshocked Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:32 pm

It's no jest. I have flagged you up on it. Your dislike of Itoje is too much to be just about his playing ability IMO.

by Sgt_Pooly Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:32 pm

beshocked wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would never bring up Itoje, this is a thread about England.

Racist. Makes sense now why you dislike Itoje and wouldn't want to see him in an England shirt.

You've lost the plot.

by **LondonTiger** Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:37 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would never bring up Itoje, this is a thread about England.

It is surely fair to bring him up while talking about the future.

Pointless bringing him up when talking about the past.

by lostinwales Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:38 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:...
Good luck finding a post that say Itoje is poor....it's never happened.

I think he's a cracking prospect and have always said this. Do I think he's currently better than RobWoodHask......no. Do I think he's better than Wilson & Ewers.....no.

Itoje is a very bright prospect but he's got a lot to learn......

*sigh - I'd say that this is actually the majority verdict on here, So obviously we are all 'racist'

by **Biltong** Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:40 pm

beshocked wrote:It's no jest. I have flagged you up on it. Your dislike of Itoje is too much to be just about his playing ability IMO.

Care to explain it to me please, I need a little more justification than just you saying it is racist.

by **LondonTiger** Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:41 pm

lostinwales wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:...
Itoje is a very bright prospect but he's got a lot to learn......

*sigh - I'd say that this is actually the majority verdict on here, So obviously we are all 'racist'

I better let my mixed race daughters know daddy is off to join the KKK?

by beshocked Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:42 pm

Sgt Pooly I apologise, it's wrong to call you racist but I would like if you could have an open mind on Itoje.

Londontiger perhaps. I perhaps harp on too much on failure and negativity but only by analysing England's failure can you look to the future. Need to look at what went wrong to not make the same mistakes.

by Sgt_Pooly Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:45 pm

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly I apologise, it's wrong to call you racist but I would like if you could have an open mind on Itoje.

Londontiger perhaps. I perhaps harp on too much on failure and negativity but only by analysing England's failure can you look to the future. Need to look at what went wrong to not make the same mistakes.

Apology accepted, no need for that kind of stuff on here.

I'm a huge Itoje fan but I don't think he's better than what we have. He's got a huge future and as I've mentioned on another thread, he'll be in the larger squad for the 6N.

by beshocked Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:47 pm

Biltong wrote:
beshocked wrote:It's no jest. I have flagged you up on it. Your dislike of Itoje is too much to be just about his playing ability IMO.

Care to explain it to me please, I need a little more justification than just you saying it is racist.

Biltong forget it. It's an overreaction. I am sorry. I am still angry about England's failure. It's stupid. There are more important things to worry about.

by king_carlos Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:50 pm

Mad for Chelsea wrote:
beshocked wrote:It's not necessarily Itoje who should have been given an opportunity - Ksevic too and maybe even Ewers but Lancaster didn't.

sorry but this is ridiculous. England had three warm-ups and you want them to try out THREE new flankers (I assume you think giving Clark a try was wrong, otherwise that'd be four). There simply isn't time for that, not unless you want the flankers who are actually likely to be picked and start in the WC itself to arrive completely short of match fitness...

In the warm up games we couldn't have tried out three new flankers no.

Bomber could have tried a flanker with a different skill set to those already at his disposal. Clark offers pretty much the same as Wood and Haskell. If we wanted options in our squad to change things when not working Clark was not going to offer that IMO.

We could also have tried different sorts of players prior to the warm-ups! In the Six Nations a different 7, Kvesic would have been my choice, should have been on the bench at some point then tried with Robshaw at 6.

Alternatively a bigger ball carrier and physical prospect at blindside could have been on the bench. Ewers for instance could have offered cover for number 8 and a dynamic replacement at blindside.

A good squad needs the option to change their personnel depending on what gameplan will work for a match. Look at Wales bringing in Tipuric alongside Warburton to counter Pocock and Hooper for instance. This England squad did not have the flexibility at all.

by **LondonTiger** Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:53 pm

The warm ups are not the time to suddenly start to try and introduce flexibility.

by **Biltong** Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:01 pm

beshocked wrote:
Biltong wrote:
beshocked wrote:It's no jest. I have flagged you up on it. Your dislike of Itoje is too much to be just about his playing ability IMO.

Care to explain it to me please, I need a little more justification than just you saying it is racist.

Biltong forget it. It's an overreaction. I am sorry. I am still angry about England's failure. It's stupid. There are more important things to worry about.

Ok, no worries, I understand how you must be feeling. AS hard as it may be, try not to take everything on here too personally.

by king_carlos Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:02 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Mark Wilson is a tremendous player Beshocked. Maybe he's happy in this area in a club that's got great plans to improve.

I think your going on a bit too much about Itoje now. Hes not god. He was "part " of the winning side...

Don't forget how much of an impression Mark Wilson has made in the falcons side. How much impression would Itoje make in the Newcastle side??? In the future maybe a bit...but in his first season not half as much!!

The issue of players from bigger clubs getting more opportunities due to pre-concieved, long standing views of certain clubs is one reason that I feel a foreign head coach would be a good move for England at this stage.

Someone without previous involvement in the set-up and a fresh view on how we should play our rugby in order to start challenging the best. Plus a fresher view on the players available to him and how they fit into that gameplan could be just what we need IMO.

I can't see them being tempted away from the chiefs - but a head coach such as Dave Rennie with Wayne Smith as assistant/backs coach, complemented by English coaches from the likes of Gustard, Baxter, Borthwick, etc could do wonders for what is currently looking a bit of a stagnant set-up that is struggling to change things up.

by Rory_Gallagher Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:40 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
beshocked wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I would never bring up Itoje, this is a thread about England.

Racist. Makes sense now why you dislike Itoje and wouldn't want to see him in an England shirt.

You've lost the plot.

Holy crap!

I have no idea how he came to that conclusion from your post. What a balloon! Laugh

by BamBam Fri Oct 09, 2015 5:30 pm

Bloody hell, you been sniffing the white stuff beshocked??

by DaveM Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:14 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Any guys...lots of good debate but hey its done now. Cant change anything.

Where do we go?

1) Should Lancaster stay. If not who is the options?
2) Should his coaches stay
3) Mass Changes or just a few subtle changes
4) Does Hartley come back in?
5) Does the style and tactics need to change?

1. I think he's now decided he wants to stay. I have no strong feeling either way, partly because I can't see a candidate I'm particularly excited about.
2. No. I think if SL stays he needs major changes in his coaching team. For me Rowntree has produced the most ineffective English pack for a while, struggling at the scrum and looking massively off the pace at the breakdown. Time for a fresh voice I think.
3. The playing staff will be almost unchanged. We need a long-term solution at 12, and a rethink with the flankers. Combined with some new coaching I think that will be sufficient.
4. No, he's lost his discipline in big games too often. We need to identify 4 young hookers to build towards 2019 with. For the 6 Nations I'd use Youngs and George.
5. Yes, the way the forwards play in particular, and we need another play-maker in the midfield. As usual there are lots of calls for new ball carriers, but I'm with Brian Moore on this - we need to do less carrying and more off-loading - both before and in contact.

As for Itoje, he's probably favourite to be Captain in 2019, and we know SL is a huge fan. The fact the leading three flankers available to SL played poorly does nothing to change the fact the WC was at least a year too early for Itoje (plus I'm pretty sure hell play most of his international rugby at 5).

by cb Sat Oct 10, 2015 7:24 am

Good questions.

1. On Lancaster, I am in two minds, he has done many good things but selection seems to be a problem, but would it be good to lose all that experience.

2. On Rowtree, started well but the pack has now looked ineffective. Was it really his idea to go "lightweight"? or was he asked to put together a mobile pack?

3. Changes should be evolutionary and not revolutionary.

4. I was not mind Hartley back. He has never had too many problems with England and his latest ban was really soft. Having recently watched it, I think many referees would have just ignored it. Not fully sure about Youngs long-term. He does not cover all the bases.

5. On Style/tactics, for goodness sake if things are NOT workings let's try something else (example kicking long at the kick-offs). Seems to be a tendency to keep doing the same thing, even if it did not work the last ten times.

by RubyGuby Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:02 am

On reflection Lancaster took it to the Blacks and won and his team beasted a decent Welsh team in Cardiff. Both performances involved high intensity and tempo and no shortage of skill. It was the same in the first half in the warm up with Ireand. Did they just "freeze" with the occasion and pressure and unwittingly did Lancaster and his coaching team just transfer that pressure to the team. Compare that to how relaxed Chieka has the Aussies.

by Geordie Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:38 am

Ruby, it's very rare you see England play at that level and intensity though.. And even rarer for 80 mins.

As for the NZ game...that was 2012!!!! 3 years ago. Its forgotten in my eyes.

by Welly Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:51 pm

I'm going to say

7) O'connor now.

by RubyGuby Mon Oct 12, 2015 3:54 pm

I'm just trying to take a balanced look Geordie - I'd clear the decks in all honesty and ask Ford to take temporary charge thumbsup

by doctor_grey Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:12 pm

I rather doubt Lancaster is going to come out and say he wants to leave. He is under contract for what must be a very good salary. My presumption is, if he goes, there will be a negotiated settlement which attempts to save face for everyone. No one thinks Lancaster is a bad guy or didn't try to do his best, so a reasonable settlement with respect to everyone is fair and appropriate.

by Geordie Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:19 pm

We then come back to who replaces him....

~~Mallet~~ - No thanks
Mallinder - Unconvinced
~~Dean Richards~~ - Ruled himself out and wouldn't be picked after his ban anyway
Rennie - Don't know much about him
~~Jake White~~ - No thanks
~~Eddie Jones~~ - Great coach, but hes an Aussie and would he stay long term? I don't think so.
Wayne Smith - Is he a full head coach?
~~Dai Youngs~~ - Doing very well with Wasps....but nope.
Ford - Unconvinced
Steve Diamond - Again Unconvinced
Baxter - A prospect but maybe give him more time with Exeter

Who else is there?

Any young Saffers at the Provinces?
Or Kiwis - How come Irish Provinces always get great Kiwi coaches.

by TightHEAD Mon Oct 12, 2015 4:23 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
How come Irish Provinces always get great Kiwi coaches.

No Tax.

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