England Post World Cup

First topic message reminder :

Who comes in...and who goes

How about this team for the next game after the WC

1 Marler
2 Tommy Taylor (Sale)
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes (Itoje on the bench)
6 Ewers
7 Kvesic (Clifford on the bench)
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Slade
11 May
12 Tom Stepheson / Sam Hill
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

I think I have missed the good games! Waller is surely no where near Vunipola? No mention of Mullan; probably the best English loosehead for the scrum for me? I've not seen any games Symons has been in tbh. Is he the next saviour like Attwood?

Waller seemed to go backwards last season.

With Symons, this sunday will be the first time I have ever seen him. People will be excited because he was a starter for a NZ super rugby franchise, so he must have something. Is it what we need? I cannot answer that ......yet.

Vuinipola's scrummaging is a weakness, he's technically poor.

Waller is a big lad. Can carry, is good on the deck and can really scrummage. With a firing Cole or fit Wilson he'd be fantastic.

Symons has excelled alongside Retallick in Super rugby which is as close to Int you're likely to get.

Vunipola I thought humped ahead in his scrumaaging last year while Waller fell back a bit. Like I said, never seen Symons so I'll reserve judgment.

So would people say that no matter who's coach and what players are picked we must win the next 6N's?

For me it's a yes. England have for too long been nearly men, if we're to start this new cycle fresh and wash off the failure of the RWC then we MUST win the 6N's.

I don't think I've ever seen Vuinipola not look like he's struggling in the scrum. He's a penalty waiting to happen.

No Symons is not the new god 7.5
But the point keeps being raised about experience etc...winning two S15 titles in NZ alongside Brodie Rattalick...and actually captaining the side at times is a pretty good start at only 25.
Its all about how he performs for Irish though.

I think someone like Kitchener offers more about the park and in the tight than Lawes and is a strong lineout man. And he's a man mountain to go with it.

I'll also add...we need to identify why so many players had such a massive slump in form coming in to the WC....what did the coaches do to them???

We know marler is not a destructive prop...but he is a good prop. Yet off form he offers very little as he has never brought his running game to the international level as we hoped.

Why did he and Cole look so poor?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think someone like Kitchener offers more about the park and in the tight than Lawes and is a strong lineout man. And he's a man mountain to go with it.

Sadly not been fully fit since he was named in the EPS back in January.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think someone like Kitchener offers more about the park and in the tight than Lawes and is a strong lineout man. And he's a man mountain to go with it.

Sadly not been fully fit since he was named in the EPS back in January.

Well lets hope he is firing on all cylinders...likewise Slater gets that bloomin knee fixed.

One thing I will be interested to see with Symons is how his work rate and conditioning stacks up against others who have come through the academy system and been on the summer training camps etc.

I have long felt that the best way to build fitness for rugby is playing the game and incorporating ball skills into as much of training work as possible. This is something which I feel gets overlooked in the English system where the weights room too often rules all when it comes to conditioning.

Given that most of his senior rugby development has come in the NZ system playing amateur club rugby then for the Chiefs I am very interested to see if his fitness is a step up.

Haven't had chance to look back through the thread, but has anybody suggested Jack Yeandle as hooker? The guy has just been made captain down at Exeter and is still only 25 (despite how he looks!) and is a unit at 6ft 1in and 18 stone.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I'll also add...we need to identify why so many players had such a massive slump in form coming in to the WC....what did the coaches do to them???

My suspicion is they didn't buy into the gameplan / tactics for the WC especially the selections at 10/12/13 and this took confidence out of everyone. Nothing to base that on tho

Cumbrian wrote:Haven't had chance to look back through the thread, but has anybody suggested Jack Yeandle as hooker?  The guy has just been made captain down at Exeter and is still only 25 (despite how he looks!) and is a unit at 6ft 1in and 18 stone.

What'll happen to LCD then?

And I've always thought Yeandle looked a very good club man and nothing more tbh

Nowt will happen to LCD, just don't think he is ready yet. Give him a couple of years and I reckon he will be a top player. There will be plenty of game time to go around. Games I have seen Yeandle in he has looked powerful and stable in the scrum, although a little suspect in the lineout.

Cumbrian wrote:Nowt will happen to LCD, just don't think he is ready yet. Give him a couple of years and I reckon he will be a top player. There will be plenty of game time to go around.  Games I have seen Yeandle in he has looked powerful and stable in the scrum, although a little suspect in the lineout.

I'm seeing a theme.......

I'm unsure LCD will ever kick on tbh, he's that bad now.

I think we should stick with :

Hartley or Jamie George starting, the other bench...and Youngs 3rd choice for the moment.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I'll also add...we need to identify why so many players had such a massive slump in form coming in to the WC....what did the coaches do to them???

We know marler is not a destructive prop...but he is a good prop. Yet off form he offers very little as he has never brought his running game to the international level as we hoped.

Why did he and Cole look so poor?

Hi GF, my assesment is the poor choice of locks. We were reactionary in selection.
Parling was selected to nurse T.Youngs at the lineout. An area that T.Youngs has struggled with when Parling wasnt playing.
Parling is percieved (by me) to be a weaker scrumager than Launchbury.
T.Youngs also offers less stability at scrum time, not his fault there as its a stature thing (similar to the critisism that Mears faced) but in that instance we had Andy Sherridan and Simon Shaw in the boiler room shoring up the pack.

A lot of people can blame the fact Hartley wasnt available. But the selection of George (inexperienced - but known for throwing accurate darts and good scrummaging) would allow the Launchbury/Lawes combination and at least gain parity in a struggling scrum.
Webber offers little dynamism in my opinion - brings experience but little else.
There are a myriad of other No.2's that could have been selected that offers something extra but lack that experience.
T.Taylor, Ward, LCD,

Anyway, thats my theory

And one I agree with....

Just realised that if Scotland beat Australia (stranger things have happened!) then England will drop to 9th in the world rankings just above Japan!

So it could get even worse for us!

screamingaddabs wrote:Just realised that if Scotland beat Australia (stranger things have happened!) then England will drop to 9th in the world rankings just above Japan!

So it could get even worse for us!

If France lose to NZ they drop below us, as do Argentina if they lose to Ireland.

Once again....the rankings mean diddly squat....teams go up and down like a tarts knickers....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Once again....the rankings mean diddly squat....teams go up and down like a tarts knickers....

Yeah, there's a lot of noise on the signal. COuld really do with averaging the rankings over each year to get a decent view of where teams stand. I can't be bothered to do that though.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Once again....the rankings mean diddly squat....teams go up and down like a tarts knickers....

When did tarts in Newcastle start wearing knickers?

screamingaddabs wrote:Just realised that if Scotland beat Australia (stranger things have happened!) then England will drop to 9th in the world rankings just above Japan!

So it could get even worse for us!

I don't care much for the rankings either. But, given our performance in the World Cup, is 9th unfair?

And what about those comments about Geordie's knickers?