England Post World Cup

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Who comes in...and who goes

How about this team for the next game after the WC

1 Marler
2 Tommy Taylor (Sale)
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes (Itoje on the bench)
6 Ewers
7 Kvesic (Clifford on the bench)
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Slade
11 May
12 Tom Stepheson / Sam Hill
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

What were fairly recently our 1st choice props, Corbs & Cole, looked shot, and need to go back to their clubs and prove themselves again before appearing for England. I think Corbs, at least, needs to restrict (and prolong) the rest of his career to his club.

English rugby needs to review its development of AP hookers – to play at test level they need to do their basics, hooking and LO, excellently. Meantime it’s Hartley & George.

Our (new) coach needs to add to the typical English strengths of set-piece and grit, not replace them.

Our BR needs the carrying/tackling/breakdown balance it currently seems to lack.

The (new) coach needs to decide on a centre combo style (defensive/footballer/pace/bosh), find the best 4 or so at this, and stick to them.

We need to start working in an eventual Brown replacement .

Our (new) coach needs to work on plan B/impact off the bench.

And did I mention we need a new coach(ing team).

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Why do our forwards (possibly exception Haskell) always look fat? You look across the pack and they just don't look like modern rugby players.

Our front rows mostly look like modern front rows IMO.

Marler is very streamlined for a prop, Youngs is a tank (albeit a small one) and Cole is well built for a prop. Similarly Brookes since getting back to Newcastle has looked in better shape. Davey Wilson has more of 'traditional' prop build you could say but he is has always had a decent work rate around the park as well. Jamie George I would put in that bracket with Wilson.

Morgan I believe was rushed back too quickly so I am not surprised he looked a bit out of shape.

Billy and Mako divide opinion here with many rightly pointing out that despite their appearance the work rate of both is very high. Plus their fitness has improved. On the other hand I do feel they could be doing slightly better in this regard given they have now been proffesional players for 5 years.

The ones that concerned me were Webber, Parling, Launchbury, Wood and Robshaw. Those 5 seemed to come out of 12 weeks of intensive fitness training with more of a belly than they went into it with!

These appearances wouldn't be something that bothered me in the slightest if the forwards fitness around the park had looked up to scratch. Unfortunately it didn't however, which does beg the question of whether their conditioning was as well thought out as it seemed prior to the tournament.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Our (new) coach needs to add to the typical English strengths of set-piece and grit, not replace them.

Our BR needs the carrying/tackling/breakdown balance it currently seems to lack.

The (new) coach needs to decide on a centre combo style (defensive/footballer/pace/bosh), find the best 4 or so at this, and stick to them.

We need to start working in an eventual  Brown replacement   .

Our (new) coach needs to work on plan B/impact off the bench.

For me we should be looking to bulk up the tight 5 with a bigger lump at hooker and in the second row. Cole as you say looks knackered and Brookes can't last 20 minutes at International level so the second most underused player in our RWC squad should come in at TH - Davey!

For Brown replacement we should be looking to give Watson and/or Nowell gametime at 15 IMO. If Brown were injured before we felt those two were ready then hopefully Foden will be showing form with Saints.

For impact of the bench we should have a point of difference to the players in the starting XV and back subs who cover the backline without too much re-jigging.

With all fit and available I'd like to see something like:

1.Marler 2.George 3.Wilson 4.Launchbury 5.Slater 6.Robshaw 7.Kvesic 8.Morgan
9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.May 12.Tuilagi 13.Joseph 14.Watson 15.Brown

16.Hartley/Youngs 17.Mako 18.Cole 19.Lawes 20.Billy 21.Care 22.Slade 23.Nowell/Daly

I'd love to see Nowell at 15. He does seem to be very much Brown mkII, but I don't know what kind of boot he has

Thing with Foden is hes 30 as well. If we are talking about squad for the next world cup vs short term results then he doesnt really have a place any more than Brown does.

lostinwales wrote:I'd love to see Nowell at 15. He does seem to be very much Brown mkII, but I don't know what kind of boot he has

I think you need your better defenders on the Wing - so Nowell wing and Watson FB for me.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:What were fairly recently our 1st choice props, Corbs & Cole, looked shot, and need to go back to their clubs and prove themselves again before appearing for England. I think Corbs, at least, needs to restrict (and prolong) the rest of his career to his club.

English rugby needs to review its development of AP hookers – to play at test level they need to do their basics, hooking and LO, excellently. Meantime it’s Hartley & George.

Our (new) coach needs to add to the typical English strengths of set-piece and grit, not replace them.

Our BR needs the carrying/tackling/breakdown balance it currently seems to lack.

The (new) coach needs to decide on a centre combo style (defensive/footballer/pace/bosh), find the best 4 or so at this, and stick to them.

We need to start working in an eventual  Brown replacement   .

Our (new) coach needs to work on plan B/impact off the bench.

And did I mention we need a new coach(ing team).

I think the discussion about backrow balance and centre combos (good alliteration) is worthy of more key strokes than perhaps it gets (as opposed to pick x, y and/or z).

Looking west at those in red, we all know Gatland's gameplan, he's been at it for 8 years. We can name the backrow and centre partnership he'd pick (assuming everyone was fit) if he were going into a World Cup final. He's picked them for Wales and the Lions, and they are Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau and Roberts and Davies.

Then you have to look at the players who can't get in the side, Justin Tipuric and Scott Williams (and I'd take them both in the England team!) They've had starts because of injuries, but no matter how well they've played for Wales or indeed their clubs, when it comes down to the big games, Gatland goes with Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau and Roberts and Davies. It's the same with Liam Williams, who managed to break into the Six Nations team on the wing but, really, never had a shot at 15 when Halfpenny was fit.

So, with England, we have to look what we have, we have to look how we want to play, and we have to pick the best players for those roles.

In the back row, we have tall, athletic guys (Croft, Itoje, Ewers), hard-working all-rounders (Wood, Robshaw, Haskell), powerful carriers (Vunipola, Morgan, Easter, Waldrom, Burgess?) and breakdown specialists (Armitage, Kvesic, Fraser). Obviously, there will be a bit of overlap across the categories, but we have to settle on our combination and our style, then pick our players and have the courage to stick with them through any poor spells. With Wales, they've gone for a hard-working all-rounder in Lydiate, a breakdown specialist in Warburton and their carrier in Faletau. When Lydiate has been injured, Warburton covers his role and adapts his game while Tipuric comes in as the breakdown specialist. With England, we seem to go for two all-rounders and a carrier, but this has left us a little light in terms of pace and breakdown work.

It's the same in the centres, we can pick from second playmakers (Farrell, Slade, Eastmond, Twelvetrees), elusive runners (Joseph, Daly) or direct runners (Tuilagi, Burrell, Barritt), but we have to settle on a style of play and then pick the guys best suited for it. Wales have gone for a direct runner in Roberts and a more elusive runner in Davies (although he doesn't have the out-and-out pace of Joseph). When Scott Williams covers for either of these, he has to adapt his game to his role. For us, it's been very sporadic selection with 2 direct runners being preferred for a time, before trying to use a second playmaker (Twelvetrees and Eastmond), before the emergence of Joseph saw us switch to 1 direct and 1 elusive last year. In the World Cup, not only did we change our centre combination for each game, but we also changed our style of combination - and therefore our gameplan - for each game!

Fiji: Barritt and Joseph (direct and elusive)
Wales: Burgess and Barritt (2 direct)
Australia: Barritt and Joseph (direct and elusive)
Uruguay: Farrell and Slade (2 playmakers - or 1 playmaker and 1 elusive if you think this was Slade's primary role)

Personally, I think England should be looking to play a wide game; therefore I'd go for a fast 6 and a specialist 7. Itoje, Armitage and Vunipola looks like it could be a handy back-row, although I can't see the RFU backing down on Armitage. The new coach will therefore have to evaluate who is the best long-term prospect as a "fetcher", out of Robshaw, Kvesic, Fraser, Wallace, etc and should hopefully back whoever he picks.

In the centres, I keep flipping between a playmaker and an elusive runner and a direct runner and an elusive runner. I like the idea of a quick 13 in order to build a fast, attacking team. So I would start Joseph every game in the 13 shirt and, if he was injured, look at Slade (if you think he can cover the role and he hasn't made any other position his own) or Daly. The question is then, who do you partner him with? And who are your contenders? You either look at Tuilagi and Burrell as your hard-running options in the mould of Nonu, DeVilliers and Roberts. If Manu played that role for 4 years with consistency inside and outside him, maybe we could start talking about them in the same kind of terms of those players. Or you go for a second-playmaker in the Giteau mould, and that could be a specialist 12 in Eastmond or Twelvetrees (but not him, please!!!) or you could play two 10s and have them alternate during the match. Again, if Farrell or Slade played for 4 years in such a system, by the next World Cup they'd know their roles inside out, and everyone around them would know what to expect as well.

There are some big questions for whoever leads the team into the Six Nations, but first and foremost for me is gameplan. How do we want to play? Until we answer that, we can't even start a selection debate.

robbo277 wrote: therefore I'd go for a fast 6http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/111753 and a specialist 7. Itoje,

I agreed with much of your post, but would have to pull you up on this bit. While powerful I woudl argue speed is one attribute Itoje does not have if he is to play back row. Having seen him given a 5m start by Lee Dickson yet overhauled it would be something he needs to really work on should he play 6 for England.

Good points there robbo. One key decision needs to be 10 in my eyes. If you play Farrell you need a playmaker outside him, If you play Ford perhaps you do not.

Just on the choice of inside centre I would like to see Slade or Devoto given a shot with Ford and Joseph.

LondonTiger wrote:

robbo277 wrote: therefore I'd go for a fast 6http://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/111753 and a specialist 7. Itoje,

I agreed with much of your post, but would have to pull you up on this bit. While powerful I woudl argue speed is one attribute Itoje does not have if he is to play back row. Having seen him given a 5m start by Lee Dickson yet overhauled it would be something he needs to really work on should he play 6 for England.

I don't watch as much club stuff as I used to, so I'll take your point on this. Although I'm sure he's not as quick as some (e.g. Croft) in the backrow, I've always been impressed with him round the park in the few times I've seen him play. I think my point on balance stands though, and if Itoje isn't the person for that role, then we have to consider whether we have an acceptable player or whether we have to change the gameplan.

TJ wrote:Good points there robbo.  One key decision needs to be 10 in my eyes.  If you play Farrell you need a playmaker outside him, If you play Ford perhaps you do not.

I would possibly work backwards on this. How do we want to play (in terms of outside backs) and then what 10 should we pick to play in this manner. So, if we decide we want a second play-maker in midfield to link with the back three, or if we want to go down a two 10s route, Farrell comes into contention at 10 or 12. If we decide we don't want to use that second playmaker and then don't think Farrell is good enough as a sole-playmaker, then he has to miss out, regardless of how well he might be playing. I'm not sure I share the same level of concern with him as a sole-playmaker, however, although if the coaches don't believe he's up to that role, there's very few players you should "break" your system for.

For example, if you are saying "well, I've put player x in, so I'll need player y to cover for his inability to...", then you should reconsider whether player x is right for your team, or your gameplan is right for the players you have available.

robbo277 wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:What were fairly recently our 1st choice props, Corbs & Cole, looked shot, and need to go back to their clubs and prove themselves again before appearing for England. I think Corbs, at least, needs to restrict (and prolong) the rest of his career to his club.

English rugby needs to review its development of AP hookers – to play at test level they need to do their basics, hooking and LO, excellently. Meantime it’s Hartley & George.

Our (new) coach needs to add to the typical English strengths of set-piece and grit, not replace them.

Our BR needs the carrying/tackling/breakdown balance it currently seems to lack.

The (new) coach needs to decide on a centre combo style (defensive/footballer/pace/bosh), find the best 4 or so at this, and stick to them.

We need to start working in an eventual  Brown replacement   .

Our (new) coach needs to work on plan B/impact off the bench.

And did I mention we need a new coach(ing team).

I think the discussion about backrow balance and centre combos (good alliteration) is worthy of more key strokes than perhaps it gets (as opposed to pick x, y and/or z).

Looking west at those in red, we all know Gatland's gameplan, he's been at it for 8 years. We can name the backrow and centre partnership he'd pick (assuming everyone was fit) if he were going into a World Cup final. He's picked them for Wales and the Lions, and they are Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau and Roberts and Davies.

Then you have to look at the players who can't get in the side, Justin Tipuric and Scott Williams (and I'd take them both in the England team!) They've had starts because of injuries, but no matter how well they've played for Wales or indeed their clubs, when it comes down to the big games, Gatland goes with Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau and Roberts and Davies. It's the same with Liam Williams, who managed to break into the Six Nations team on the wing but, really, never had a shot at 15 when Halfpenny was fit.

So, with England, we have to look what we have, we have to look how we want to play, and we have to pick the best players for those roles.

In the back row, we have tall, athletic guys (Croft, Itoje, Ewers), hard-working all-rounders (Wood, Robshaw, Haskell), powerful carriers (Vunipola, Morgan, Easter, Waldrom, Burgess?) and breakdown specialists (Armitage, Kvesic, Fraser). Obviously, there will be a bit of overlap across the categories, but we have to settle on our combination and our style, then pick our players and have the courage to stick with them through any poor spells. With Wales, they've gone for a hard-working all-rounder in Lydiate, a breakdown specialist in Warburton and their carrier in Faletau. When Lydiate has been injured, Warburton covers his role and adapts his game while Tipuric comes in as the breakdown specialist. With England, we seem to go for two all-rounders and a carrier, but this has left us a little light in terms of pace and breakdown work.

It's the same in the centres, we can pick from second playmakers (Farrell, Slade, Eastmond, Twelvetrees), elusive runners (Joseph, Daly) or direct runners (Tuilagi, Burrell, Barritt), but we have to settle on a style of play and then pick the guys best suited for it. Wales have gone for a direct runner in Roberts and a more elusive runner in Davies (although he doesn't have the out-and-out pace of Joseph). When Scott Williams covers for either of these, he has to adapt his game to his role. For us, it's been very sporadic selection with 2 direct runners being preferred for a time, before trying to use a second playmaker (Twelvetrees and Eastmond), before the emergence of Joseph saw us switch to 1 direct and 1 elusive last year. In the World Cup, not only did we change our centre combination for each game, but we also changed our style of combination - and therefore our gameplan - for each game!

Fiji: Barritt and Joseph (direct and elusive)
Wales: Burgess and Barritt (2 direct)
Australia: Barritt and Joseph (direct and elusive)
Uruguay: Farrell and Slade (2 playmakers - or 1 playmaker and 1 elusive if you think this was Slade's primary role)

Personally, I think England should be looking to play a wide game; therefore I'd go for a fast 6 and a specialist 7. Itoje, Armitage and Vunipola looks like it could be a handy back-row, although I can't see the RFU backing down on Armitage. The new coach will therefore have to evaluate who is the best long-term prospect as a "fetcher", out of Robshaw, Kvesic, Fraser, Wallace, etc and should hopefully back whoever he picks.

In the centres, I keep flipping between a playmaker and an elusive runner and a direct runner and an elusive runner. I like the idea of a quick 13 in order to build a fast, attacking team. So I would start Joseph every game in the 13 shirt and, if he was injured, look at Slade (if you think he can cover the role and he hasn't made any other position his own) or Daly. The question is then, who do you partner him with? And who are your contenders? You either look at Tuilagi and Burrell as your hard-running options in the mould of Nonu, DeVilliers and Roberts. If Manu played that role for 4 years with consistency inside and outside him, maybe we could start talking about them in the same kind of terms of those players. Or you go for a second-playmaker in the Giteau mould, and that could be a specialist 12 in Eastmond or Twelvetrees (but not him, please!!!) or you could play two 10s and have them alternate during the match. Again, if Farrell or Slade played for 4 years in such a system, by the next World Cup they'd know their roles inside out, and everyone around them would know what to expect as well.

There are some big questions for whoever leads the team into the Six Nations, but first and foremost for me is gameplan. How do we want to play? Until we answer that, we can't even start a selection debate.

Great points.

I'd go for Slade and JJ as first choice centres (play making and elusive), it becomes very difficult to find good replacements though that do the same style of play.

If Tuilagi gets back to his best form then he really has to play (big if mind) but he is not play making nor elusive. If JJ is injured maybe Slade and Tuilagi? If Slade is injured then maybe Devoto?

On the limited evidence I have seen Slade has a really good kicking game, a really good passing game and offers some threat in attack. Farrell is a better tackler though not really destructive, has great attitude, is great at kicking points and has a fantastic zombie stare.

Overall Slade seems like a huge upgrade at 12.

It is basically the problem with having so many players available! Obviously that should be a (and generally is) a boon, but sometimes it is hard to settle on players when the next big thing turns up every 6 months or so!

Gooseberry wrote:Thing with Foden is hes 30 as well. If we are talking about squad for the next world cup vs short term results then he doesnt really have a place any more than Brown does.

We shoudnt be solely focusing on the next world cup though. Look to try and win some 6n and grand slams.

The World cup team will look after itself then.

All this talk on centres though is a bit by the bye when we have got a pack performing so badly...

screamingaddabs wrote:It is basically the problem with having so many players available!  Obviously that should be a (and generally is) a boon, but sometimes it is hard to settle on players when the next big thing turns up every 6 months or so!

Then we have to try a pick a style of game (and ffs stick with it) and try and pick the best players to fit with that style. And please let it be a style we are comfortable with...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Thing with Foden is hes 30 as well. If we are talking about squad for the next world cup vs short term results then he doesnt really have a place any more than Brown does.

We shoudnt be solely focusing on the next world cup though. Look to try and win some 6n and grand slams.

The World cup team will look after itself then.

Bets on Easter still being there at 41....

He isn't as good as Billy or Morgan on best form, and I know it was only Uraguay, but he was smart and very involved and we should have been using him instead of a not fit Morgan,

Hughes to come. He will be capped I have no doubt whoever is at the helm. You would then have him Morgan, Vunipola, Pearce who the Tigers fans seem to be liking the look of though I haven't seen him myself. There'll be others coming through no doubt so I don't think Easter will be involved from now. Did think that before though.

If hes the best player for the style of rugby then play him. When you have a quality settled team with tactics that everyone follows and knows inside out then its much easier to introduce a replacement.

lostinwales wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:It is basically the problem with having so many players available!  Obviously that should be a (and generally is) a boon, but sometimes it is hard to settle on players when the next big thing turns up every 6 months or so!

Then we have to try a pick a style of game (and ffs stick with it) and try and pick the best players to fit with that style. And please let it be a style we are comfortable with...

I agree, but try justifying that in a year or twos time when someone that doesn't fit the game plan is flavour of the week and the incumbent is low on form. Obviously the smart money says to stick to the plan, but the press and the fans will probably go ape anyway.

Of course two players we are all banging on about don't even have a settle position yet.

Where will Slade play for Exeter?
Where will Itoje play for Sarries? Apparently he has been their captain all preseason...

Hughes will walk into the England squad. His breakdown work and line breaking ability are un-matched (poss Billy's carrying) and he'll be a huge asset.

The problem will be making up the rest of the backrow....

Isnt Hughes a lineout option aswell?

Im just not happy with him ditching Fiji and samoa to play for us....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Isnt Hughes a lineout option aswell?

Im just not happy with him ditching Fiji and samoa to play for us....

+1

Can't blame the coaches though, blame the IRB (or WR or wtf they call themselves these days).

Whilst I'd prefer he play for Fiji, Hughes could be a perfect fit for us at 6 as well as 8. He carries very strongly, tackles big and is strong at the breakdown.

Hughes only issue at 6 is his work rate, he'd need work.

But as he's not available until the Autumn internationals...we focus on Billy and Ben.

Is he available that soon? I thought it was after this season

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hughes to come. He will be capped I have no doubt whoever is at the helm. You would then have him Morgan, Vunipola, Pearce who the Tigers fans seem to be liking the look of though I haven't seen him myself.

Pearce will never be more than a half decent Premiership player.

BamBam wrote:Is he available that soon? I thought it was after this season

He's available as of June I believe...so the Autumn internationals

How about this one...

1 Auterac
2 George
3 Davy Wilson
4 Launchbury
5 Itoje
6 Ewers
7 Clifford / Kvesic
8 Billy V

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hughes to come. He will be capped I have no doubt whoever is at the helm. You would then have him Morgan, Vunipola, Pearce who the Tigers fans seem to be liking the look of though I haven't seen him myself.

Pearce will never be more than a half decent Premiership player.

Who's the good big 8 you have coming through then or have I made it up?

GeordieFalcon wrote:How about this one...

1 Auterac
2 George
3 Davy Wilson
4 Launchbury
5 Itoje
6 Ewers
7 Clifford / Kvesic
8 Billy V

Is Itoje better than Lawes? Not for me yet. Auterac I'm looking forward to but can't see him jumping past Marler, Mullan, and Vunipola by the 6Ns. Itoje I can see on the bench by the 6Ns.

Long term who knows but its an easy knee jerk reaction to consider the untried Itoje as better than the injured/out of form Lawes.

Lawes at his best is a very useful player.

7.5 im just not totally convinced by Lawes im really not.

I think its a question of who partners Launchbury, but I just cant decide who. Maybe that Symmons if he flies out of the blocks, but I haven't seen much of him so cant comment. Im sure he'll very much be in the picture though who ever is in charge judging by his Captaincy and performances in the S15.

Lawes at his best is class. Not getting back into the whole over time Itoje will/may be better as it's most peoples opinions I've seen he has the potential to go onto to be an England great. I think it's GF who's said a few times now the only thing that matters is the next 6Ns. The only question is getting the best out of the team  by picking the best group of players looking at them as a whole. If he fits the team better than Lawes so be it but at present I can't see that being so. I can see him as a very good bench option by then. He may jump on and improve again though.

And good point GF it may not even be Lawes (or even Launchbury though I think he's one fo the best in the world and I can't imagine him not playing). You've got Kitchener and Slater who offer a different point of focus as well.

Your right 7.5 I have said that many times now and its right. Lets just focus on smashing the 6n.

Itoje wont start . Symons at 6'8 and powerful -  Was brief Captain of Waikato Chiefs - 2 title winning S15's and only 25 and true blue English could very well start!

Him and Launchbury could be a very interesting combo.

The way of looking at it should be that in some positions we have a lot of strength, and if there is a change to be made then the guy coming in has to demonstrably show that he's a better option. Lawes is good, one of the others might be better

I keep forgetting about Symons, he could be a good addition.

The form Lawes has been in, he needs to go in the Saxons.

Lawes in the Saxons would be a huge waste. You'd honestly drop him out of the squad altogether?

What's he added of late?

No player should be exempt of being dropped, maybe the shock will give him a kick up the ass, he's been massively disappointing.

Im just not convinced on what Lawes brings.

Yes he's very athletic...his cover tackling is as good as Crofts etc...but im just not convinced the whole package offers enough. Of course I may be completely wrong.

I tend to agree GF. If he's not tackling backs, he's not adding anything. I think he's possibly our most overrated player (by English fans)

Of late being these set of warm ups and the WC where the previously good set of forwards played a bit rubbish bar Vunipola for a game or 2? When he played in the 6Ns he was good. When he's played for Saints he's been good.

A lot of this is dependant on a possible new coach(es) and form but I'd be surprised if he's not on this list being strongly considered come Feb.

Recent form 7 1/2, that's 7 or so games.

I've never quite got the Lawes hype but I was won round by his line out play. That seems to have regressed significantly and he's been a passenger.

I'd prefer two lumps in the Laumchbury, Slater type mould.

Fair enough. We just need replacements for Marler, Vunipola, Youngs, Webber, Cole, Brookes, lawes, parling, Wood, Robshaw, Haskell and Morgan from the forwards then? Based on form?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hughes to come. He will be capped I have no doubt whoever is at the helm. You would then have him Morgan, Vunipola, Pearce who the Tigers fans seem to be liking the look of though I haven't seen him myself.

Pearce will never be more than a half decent Premiership player.

Who's the good big 8 you have coming through then or have I made it up?

that's Pearce, but he would have to improve massively to even make Saxons consideration. In a lot of ways I hope he does as I would like to think that it is possible to get to the England setup via a route not confined to National Age Group teams and PRL academies. Pearce's journey so far is not dissimilar to tomas Francis, having plied his trade mainly in the lower divisions. He is a big lump and good carrier, but seems to lose the ball in contact too often. His tackling is work in progress and his workrate iffy. Add in his age (25 in December) and England's selection geared exclusively to former U20s players or south sea converts and I just cannot see him pushing on to England.

Some of those mentioned had good games throughout the WC period, I can't recall Lawes imprssing at all.

1. Marler/Waller
2. Hartley/George
3. Cole/Wilson
4. Launchbury/Slater
5. Kitchener/Symons

Front 5 sorted

Fair enough LT. Thought I'd seen some of you singing his praises but it appears I've got wires crossed. Ta.