England Post World Cup

First topic message reminder :

Who comes in...and who goes

How about this team for the next game after the WC

1 Marler
2 Tommy Taylor (Sale)
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes (Itoje on the bench)
6 Ewers
7 Kvesic (Clifford on the bench)
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Slade
11 May
12 Tom Stepheson / Sam Hill
13 Joseph
14 Watson
15 Brown

GeordieFalcon wrote:I repeat...do the rankings actually mean anything? No....

England need to close ranks, get a new coach, rejuvenate some of the players who look appallingly out of form and confidence...then come out fighting in the 6n.

to quote the galactic empire.

Our first catch of the day.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I repeat...do the rankings actually mean anything? No....

England need to close ranks, get a new coach, rejuvenate some of the players who look appallingly out of form and confidence...then come out fighting in the 6n.

Was it not the rankings that meant Wales England and Australia ended up in the same group? If England don't improve their ranking they could end up in another tough group in Japan

marty2086 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I repeat...do the rankings actually mean anything? No....

England need to close ranks, get a new coach, rejuvenate some of the players who look appallingly out of form and confidence...then come out fighting in the 6n.

Was it not the rankings that meant Wales England and Australia ended up in the same group? If England don't improve their ranking they could end up in another tough group in Japan with Japan

There just fixed that for you.

Pride comes before a fall and all that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Pride comes before a fall and all that.

Oh come on, we are just joshing with you chief.

It's all fun, there is no shame on clinging on to the top ten in the world rankings, we've all been there.

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I repeat...do the rankings actually mean anything? No....

England need to close ranks, get a new coach, rejuvenate some of the players who look appallingly out of form and confidence...then come out fighting in the 6n.

Was it not the rankings that meant Wales England and Australia ended up in the same group? If England don't improve their ranking they could end up in another tough group in Japan with Japan

There just fixed that for you.

Never mind. And don't worry Wales will never fail to get out of the group phase when they host the RWC

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I repeat...do the rankings actually mean anything? No....

England need to close ranks, get a new coach, rejuvenate some of the players who look appallingly out of form and confidence...then come out fighting in the 6n.

Was it not the rankings that meant Wales England and Australia ended up in the same group? If England don't improve their ranking they could end up in another tough group in Japan with Japan

There just fixed that for you.

I actually had that in and thought better off it, then again they still haven't qualified for Japan so mightn't be a worry for them

lostinwales wrote:Never mind. And don't worry Wales will never fail to get out of the group phase when they host the RWC

We do not need to host one, there is a massive country next door to us, who do an excellent job at it, and let us play in our own ground for the privilege, they also let us use their very own HQ as well, they then bugger off early and let us take the reigns, good as gold they are.

I really don't think we need to panic, a large majority of us saw the problems with the selections that took place with our team.

I'm fed up with the lets build for the next RWC attitude, no lets pick the best team we have now, injuries will always happen so when a player drops out you pick the nearest best player available that can do the same/similar or better job.

Robshaw is finished as Captain I think we can all agree on that, but if he goes back to Quins and starts performing well in the No6 shirt then I have no issues with him coming back into the England team, Armitage has to be given a run at 7 as he is still the best 7 this country has, I don't care if he plays in France if he is performing to a high standard then that is good enough for me.

Players that will probably drop out of England contention - Im not saying thats what I want but I suspect they will for a variety of reasons.
Wilson, Easter, Wigglesworth, Barritt, Twelvetrees, Rob Webber

Guys to come in if they show the form -
Foden, M.Tuilagi, Burrell, Eastmond, Yarde, Kvesic, Slater, Attwood

Fringe players that should be given more of a chance -
George, LCD, Care, Haskell

Players that need to show more to stay -
T.Wood, Robshaw combination (a lot of the flack is directed at Robshaw for decisions - but Both Wood and Robshaw were bossed at the breakdown).
M.Brown - mr consistent had a bad WC (by his standards).
Dan Cole - Bad WC (wasnt he coming back from injury prior to WC?)

I don't think there is much real difference between planning for next year and 2019. The majority of the players should be the same either way.

I would like an England 6N team of -
Marler, George, Cole,
Launchbury, Lawes
Haskell, Robshaw, Morgan
B.Youngs
Ford
May
Tuilagi
Joseph
Watson
Brown

Mako, LCD, Brooks, Parling, B.Vaunipola, D.Care, H.Slade, AnOther (back 3 or 12/13 cover)

Coach: Graham Henry.......
Paul Gustard....................

Long shot selection - Dean Richards.......certainly one to bring back the old England gnarly packs.

propdavid_london wrote:I would like an England 6N team of -
Marler, George, Cole,
Launchbury, Lawes
Haskell, Robshaw, Morgan
B.Youngs
Ford
May
Tuilagi
Joseph
Watson
Brown

Mako, LCD, Brooks, Parling, B.Vaunipola, D.Care, H.Slade, AnOther (back 3 or 12/13 cover)

Coach:  Graham Henry.......
Paul Gustard....................

Long shot selection - Dean Richards.......certainly one to bring back the old England gnarly packs.

Not Henry please. We do need someone with balls though.

4 years is a long time, best way to plan for it is to win four 6 nations titles in that time.

Not convinced Graham Henry would be a good idea as coach.

Mind the only SH coach to have made a real success in NH international rugby has been Gats - and his first attempt, like Henry, was not a resounding success.

Joe Schmidt has done pretty well so far

marty2086 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I repeat...do the rankings actually mean anything? No....

England need to close ranks, get a new coach, rejuvenate some of the players who look appallingly out of form and confidence...then come out fighting in the 6n.

Was it not the rankings that meant Wales England and Australia ended up in the same group? If England don't improve their ranking they could end up in another tough group in Japan

It doesn't matter, You play whos in your group. We should have beaten wales. We should have been better prepared.

With a different coachng set up I truly believe we'd still be in...nothing to do with rankings.

LordDowlais wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I repeat...do the rankings actually mean anything? No....

England need to close ranks, get a new coach, rejuvenate some of the players who look appallingly out of form and confidence...then come out fighting in the 6n.

to quote the galactic empire.

Our first catch of the day.

Ah right I see.....well done!!

Gatland is overrated, sure he has a good record against NH teams but against SH opposition he has failed big time.

Jake White would be a better fit for England, surely Henry is tucked up with a blanket and a cuppa in a nursing home by now?

Next coach depends on who applies. It was only Mallett and Lancaster last time and I still think they made the best choice.

I don't want Mallet in there....

Rather have Baxter or Mallinder

And Dean Richards will never in a million years get it.

Ideal shortlist?

Replace Andrew with SCW (Who would change things)
Head Coach: Rennie or Give Eddie Jones how ever much he wants for Head Coach
Defence Coach: Gustard
Forwards Coach: Borthwick
Ass: Back Coach: Maybe Catt
10 coach (Ala Alred): Wilkinson

Starting lineup
1) Vunipola, 2) George, 3) Brookes
4) Launchbury, 5) Kitchener
6) Ewers, 7) Kvesic, 8) Morgan
9) Simpson, 10) Slade
12) Eastmond, 13) Joesph
11) May, 14) Nowell/Watson, 15) Brown/Watson/Pennell

16) Youngs, 17) Waller/Auterac, 18) Wilson
19) Itojie, 20) Vunipola/Clifford (If he gets game time @ Quins)
21) Youngs, 22) Ford, 23) Nowell/Watson/Pennell

I might get shouted out for Starting Slade over Ford but want to see him play.

andy Farrell sky sports media interview 5pm today.   after breaking post match media protocols by not making coaching staff and a number of players available for interview post match.......apparently should have had 11 from coaches and players and only woods and wrigglesworth came through from the players to the media interviews.  tut tut.!!!

1) Vunipola, 2) George, 3) Brookes
4) Launchbury, 5) Kitchener
6) Ewers, 7) Kvesic, 8) Morgan
9) Simpson, 10) Slade
12) Eastmond, 13) Joesph
11) May, 14) Nowell/Watson, 15) Brown/Watson/Pennell

2 props who can't scrummage and 2 average AP flanker, nothing like a knee jerk reaction eh

Plus you got the potential protocol breach

http://www.itv.com/rugbyworldcup/england-investigated-over-alleged-breach-of-protocol

Was Mike Brown not available for comment after the match by the way?

gavstar wrote:andy Farrell sky sports media interview 5pm today.   after breaking post match media protocols by not making coaching staff and a number of players available for interview post match.......apparently should have had 11 from coaches and players and only woods and wrigglesworth came through from the players to the media interviews.  tut tut.!!!

and even they both turned up with the wrong names

Welly.

I would have Ford at 10 and may be Slade at 22.

For has been a better fly half than Farrell, that's for sure.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:1) Vunipola, 2) George, 3) Brookes
4) Launchbury, 5) Kitchener
6) Ewers, 7) Kvesic, 8) Morgan
9) Simpson, 10) Slade
12) Eastmond, 13) Joesph
11) May, 14) Nowell/Watson, 15) Brown/Watson/Pennell

2 props who can't scrummage and 2 average AP flanker, nothing like a knee jerk reaction eh

Yes because the current props showed off there scrummaging so far this World cup.

And our flankers set the world alight.



Mind you i never rated your analyst on players TBH

majesticimperialman wrote:Welly.

I would have Ford at 10 and may be Slade at 22.

For has been a better fly half than Farrell, that's for sure.

As said only reason was because i wanted to see Slade start.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:1) Vunipola, 2) George, 3) Brookes
4) Launchbury, 5) Kitchener
6) Ewers, 7) Kvesic, 8) Morgan
9) Simpson, 10) Slade
12) Eastmond, 13) Joesph
11) May, 14) Nowell/Watson, 15) Brown/Watson/Pennell

2 props who can't scrummage and 2 average AP flanker, two top class game changing flankers....nothing like a knee jerk reaction eh

Changed it Sgt

But I agree about the two props....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:1) Vunipola, 2) George, 3) Brookes
4) Launchbury, 5) Kitchener
6) Ewers, 7) Kvesic, 8) Morgan
9) Simpson, 10) Slade
12) Eastmond, 13) Joesph
11) May, 14) Nowell/Watson, 15) Brown/Watson/Pennell

2 props who can't scrummage and 2 average AP flanker, nothing like a knee jerk reaction eh

you forgot the SH who can't pass I think Mako gets unfairly picked on for his scrummaging really, it was better than Marler's for this tournament.

Having said that, changing 80% of the team is unlikely to be a solution.

Mallinder with Saints doesnt have a Plan B...
People have mentioned Dean Ryan and that IMO would be a massive mistake.
Mark McCall??? and Gustard combo.

Baxter has done wonders with Chiefs but.......

I cant help feeling that we need someone with a prooven International rep.....for a change.

Will the RFU international selection policy of home based players be extended to coaches?
Do we need a DoR type overseer and a Head coach like the clubs? Is that basically what Rob Andrew is? (if so he needs to go as he's milked that cow dry).

Eddie Jones has done a lot with Japan....But he has said he's done with Japan post WC..
Who else is there -
Jake White is constantly linked with England job. (massively critisised prior to 2007 WC).
Graham Henry has been involved with Argentina (not sure if he still is). Wasnt there a diclaimer in his contract with NZ that he wasnt allowed to work for a competative union for a number of years after stepping down?

Mallett - No thanks
Peter De Villiers - No thanks
Wayne Smith - Probably being groomed as Hansens replacement

People have seemed to have forget Brookes and Mako getting marched back about 10m by the Aus reserve props.

Brookes is not a good scrummaging prop. Cole did ok against Aus, not great but ok. Marler was pinged 4 times from the 5 pens as far as I can recall.

Simpson should be nowhere near an England cap, good spot Mad for Chelsea.

Haven't seen much mention of Corbisiero. Do people think he's broken or won't be able to get back to his best? He's still only 27.

1) Marler been crap
2) Youngs not a starter really
3) Cole needs a rest from England, and Leicester need to kick on with giving Balmain more game time to take pressure of him.
4) Lawes needs a break away from England IMO.
6) Wood Crap
7) Robshaw not a flanker
9) Youngs need to give someone new a go IMO between Simpson or Robson (I want Robson to overtake him TBH)
10) Farrell (Just no)
12) Barritt just no

Who out of those would you keep in the starting shirt?

Cyril wrote:Haven't seen much mention of Corbisiero. Do people think he's broken or won't be able to get back to his best? He's still only 27.

Been really poor Waller will overtake him IMO.

Mullan.

Cyril wrote:Haven't seen much mention of Corbisiero. Do people think he's broken or won't be able to get back to his best? He's still only 27.

Change of rules so he's not so dominant plus he's always broken. I think he is a guy who will go down in history as someone who should have got a lot of caps but I think it is unlikely he'll be back

Some of these selections are comical and it displays part of the issue with English rugby....too many players.

To select Brookes ahead of Cole and Wilson is farcical, he is not a good starting prop, anybody who's seen him at all this season would know this.

Because Wood/Robshaw didn't produce we select two average AP flankers who's showed very little in the AP and have been poor on the whole for the Saxons?

So no one is picking Sam Burgess at centre I see. Maybe he needs more gametime

Sgt youre idea on average Flankers is farcial.

Brookes yeh i can see your point of view but IMO Cole needs a break from England.

Would you have Dave Rennie...the Waikato Chiefs Head Coach?

Steffan wrote:So no one is picking Sam Burgess at centre I see. Maybe he needs more gametime

At No6 for Bath, then yes he does. He has huge potential as a 6.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Would you have Dave Rennie...the Waikato Chiefs Head Coach?

Yeh i put it down on the other thread.

Don't know if he would leave yet though.

dear oh lord Cybil , I put woods for wood and wrigglesworth for wigglesworth what am I thinking !!!! got my mind on something more important , maybe

What have Ewers and Kvesic done Welly? Always interested in reasonable debate, I see nothing in Kvesic in the slightest. Ewers is not fit enough, plain and simple. He has potential but needs a lot of work. Watch how many times (and how late) he arrives at rucks. He's fine making a few hard yards but wouldn't last 40mins at Int level.

Wilson is Cole's natural peer, no issue with those 2 sharing the TH jersey.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Some of these selections are comical and it displays part of the issue with English rugby....too many players.

To select Brookes ahead of Cole and Wilson is farcical, he is not a good starting prop, anybody who's seen him at all this season would know this.

Because Wood/Robshaw didn't produce we select two average AP flankers who's showed very little in the AP and have been poor on the whole for the Saxons?

MAIN problems from the campaign:

- Lack of cool heads under pressure (experience)
- Tactics
- Bish bash bosh backs

I don't think the forwards need a complete rehash, I think the players we have need to be coached better as they have shown in the past that they can do the job (and most are still pretty young)
The backs need play makers to be picked and to be told ot go out and have fun!

Yes there are other issues, but when a part on my bike breaks I don't get a new bike, I get a new part. Admittedly my bike isn't very good at rugby.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Some of these selections are comical and it displays part of the issue with English rugby....too many players.

To select Brookes ahead of Cole and Wilson is farcical, he is not a good starting prop, anybody who's seen him at all this season would know this.

Because Wood/Robshaw didn't produce we select two average AP flankers who's showed very little in the AP and have been poor on the whole for the Saxons?

When did they play for the saxons.....and I would argue that they've been very prominent in the Prem...certainly Kvesic has been a talismanic figure at times for Gloucester as their pack is poor. Imagine in a decent pack.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Would you have Dave Rennie...the Waikato Chiefs Head Coach?

No.

Apparently we need someone with experience of the international game - so he fails on that count. We also need someone with experience of English rugby I believe.


Anyway it has been written in the stars. Lancaster will be moved into a player development role. Rob Andrew will be appointed Director of Sustenance Logistics. Connor O'Shea will be the new head coach, assisted by Rob Baxter, Paul Gustard and Mike Catt. Graham Rowntree will become Head Coach at Quins and retained as a Scrum Coach consultant by England.

majesticimperialman wrote:Lancaster is leaving after the next game on saturday.

So who ever comes in and takes over from SL, will have to start a fresh with the 6ns just around the corner.

The future is not looking toooooooo good for England at the moment.;

Au contraire, with the right coach the future looks very good. And even with SL in post we'd have still made 2nd at the 6N - we didn't just become carp.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Because Wood/Robshaw didn't produce we select two average AP flankers who's showed very little in the AP and have been poor on the whole for the Saxons?

When did they play for the saxons.....and I would argue that they've been very prominent in the Prem...certainly Kvesic has been a talismanic figure at times for Gloucester as their pack is poor. Imagine in a decent pack.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11380898/Ireland-Wolfhounds-9-England-Saxons-18-Sam-Burgess-fails-to-make-the-grade-on-step-up.html